I think my problem with Reveler against Shadow decks stems from the time when Death's Shadow Jund first became a big player. I really don't like Reveler against that deck. They play way to heavily to the board, and almost always have a massive fatty we need to deal with. I don't think drawing a bunch of cards is how we beat that deck.
GDS is definitely a different beast, and drawing a bunch of cards is good there. I did board in Reveler against them, but it wasn't long until I cut Reveler from the board. GDS still has a lot of fatties (not as consistently due to a lack of Traverse), but I think Reveler might be worth it here. My problem with it against GDS is to play towards Reveler, we need more ways to answer fatties. I've faced down Tasigur with Reveler stuck in my hand, and I hated every second of it. And they can slow down Reveler with Spell bomb.
As far as clocking speed, GDS>Jund>Abzan>Jeskai(probably faster than this spot with Geist)>hard control. The faster and more consistently Midrange decks can clock, the less I like Reveler postboard. I think GDS is past that threshold.
@mike
I understand we have to do more than draw cards, but to resolve a 3/4 prowess body that gets you three extra cards is the exact thing that puts you ahead of their removal spells to close out game. If you cast reveler, drawing a goyf/mandrills and a counterspell, the fair deck suddenly has to find THREE(!) removal spells to bring the board back to neutral and that's just assuming the third card is dead or a land.
True. I played with it when the temur reveler list was developed. It's surely powerful and one of best threat agains midrange deck. What I meant (and maybe wasn't enough clear) is that sometimes it's not enough.
The formula to beat these decks is simple. It's no riddle. If you have more creatures+counters than they have removal+blockers, you win. Gaining a critical mass of cards is the only real way have of making that more efficient/dooable aside from hitting three lands and drawing nothing but gas all game but that's not going to happen. Playing a threat like huntmaster that eats a bolt, and then the token gets walled by a threat we struggle to remove, can help but nothing ends these games faster than accumulating more threats/answers. Besides, how many 4 mana spells can 17-18 land decks run before it's a hinderance
You have to add discards (and liliana) to the equation but surely reveler helps to match or going ahead.
Then you talk about 4 drops. I agree with what you said. But In my tests reveler never costed less than 4 to cast and usually costed more. That was my biggest issue. It was too difficult to cast. It's true you need it mid-late game but the more you wait, the more your opponent can nuke your graveyard. Definetly 6-8 to cast is too much.
I've been thinking about Chandra and it is a gamewinner but struggles to consistently remove goyf and falls short of the delve creatures. When you're ahead on board and drop it it's very hard to lose but we absolutely struggle to kill these exact threats and I fear too often you have to choose between activating it once and losing it to combat damage. I have no experience with it to speak of, though, so I could be wrong.
She can't get rid of delve creatures or goyf by herself but she lets bolt or tarfire become hard removals. If they have a threat and you don't, reveler (if castable) is a better topdeck. In any case even if they kill her the next attack, it's as you gained a bunch of life and another turn to do something (doing a couple of damage in the meantime) and sometimes is enough. If they spent an attack and they didn't kill her (attack for 4, chumpblock etc.) you are as you said in a wonderful spot.
I got a few matches in with Shaper's Sanctuary, its almost impossible for mardu to beat on turn one except perhaps some Lilliana action but if you don't have it in the early game it can be too little too late as a topdeck late and in order to guarantee it early you need to run multiples which eats up way too much sideboard space. It's very powerful though.
Thanks for sharing. I find this test results extremely useful.
@Mnesci
I agree with you analisys
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Decks played: Modern:
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No problem; I believe I posted a similar list a few months ago but took a long break to play commander on MTGO instead. Just coming back to modern again but I've been been grinding friendly leagues and have yet to do worse than 3-2 in ~10 attempts or so.
I know at first glance the numbers can seem a bit weird but a lot of work has been put in here and these choices are all calculated. The remand and knuckleblade are the only real flex slots here IMO but as of now I wouldn't be change a thing. The mardu variants that have popped up seem like an uphill battle so I've been mulling things like Kira, great glass spinner a shot as a traverse target but I'm unsure if it's necessary as of yet. Feel free to ask questions.
@blood moon for burn; it's been discussed here before and I've tried it several times but with less than great results. I usually lose to burn because I didn't answer their early creatures, not because I can't stop burn spells. It can certainly steal games though, I can definitely see that.
This list looks pretty amazing!!
I know that it can be a lot of work but would it be possible to have a simple in & out list as a SB plan.
I think that would help many of us here!
As you said you've put many hours into the list and i'm keen to find out more!
No problem! If I skip any you would want to know about just say so.
I've been trying some sideboard tweaks as I've been seeing more of the meta. The MD right now is: -1 remand +1 deprive.
Sideboard is: -1 deprive -1 vendilion clique +1 roast +1 bedlam reveler. Hurts the big mana matchups and combo but way too many fair decks are being played right now and roast is now a premium sideboard piece IMO.
Burn:
-4 Delver
-2 snag
-1 curator
+1 basilisk collar
+1 feed the clan
+2 roast
+2 firespout
+1 EE
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-2 tarfire
-1 thought scour
These decks are hard to board against because the burn is so good even tarfire sometimes gets the nod which makes it hard to include other interaction. Their best threats costs one so mana leak isn't great here. Also a ton of variance between lists make this plan very loose and deck list specific.
I don't have this written down anywhere so I don't always follow this exact plan and oftentimes people have unique lists that call for unique setups. Sometimes I'll leave in an extra counter, or leave in knuckleblade, or bring in feed the clan against aggro, or take out a cantrips to include more interaction- all depending on individual opponents lists- but this is a good place to start for each matchup. I did it quick so sorry for any errors.
I have a couple questions/comments about how you board.
Against Living End, does Bojuka Bog come down quickly enough? I understand that the goal is to Traverse for it, so you end up with 4 pieces of graveyard hate, but how soon do you usually have Delirium? Curator definitely helps, but I haven't played enough with it to know by how much.
On Storm, is boarding in Basilisk Collar even worth it? It slows down the Empty kill, but there are plenty of ways to stop that. On getting out of Grapeshot range, Grapeshot can be Remanded and flashed back. Life gain can make the kill harder for them to assemble, but if you are actually safe, the Storm player is out of life from all the damage you did.
I recently threw Roast back in the board because I want more ways to kill fatties. Hoping it does work. Also, promo Roast is gorgeous.
I also might try fitting Collar into the board because it sounds great, but space is always tight.
Agreed with mike, steel overseer needs to die on sight and any early ravaged won't be able to survive a roast even with modular shenanigans. Master of etherium also often falls within range, at least for a while. Every once in a while I take out a key signal pest or something. What's really essential is being able to use the roast in order to save a bolt/tarfire in hand to protect against big cranial/ravaged swings or manlands.
Bog in itself is pretty weak. Getting what is essentially colorless mana from it after is nice and it has synergy with deprive but it can't be the only interaction you have against grace decks. For living end you're most likely going to have to counter 1 living end and then on your following turn when you play bog, they 99% of the time living end again in response which you obviously must also counter. Generally that leaves them pretty much out of gas or at least gives you a window to win. I think my delerium access is pretty good. I lose to end because I don't have a second counter or don't find traverse/bog but not really because traverse is dead. Curator is cute here but isn't a huge game changer, although only jungle weaver/macabre blocks it so if they have to cast end on their turn you could get a chance to bash for four.
Yeah you're right about collar and grapeshot. Only if they don't have a baral and/or PIf would the storm be low enough to matter. I will say that they seem to always go for the empty the warrens plan with me, hoping to spit out a bunch of tokens early when I'm establishing a board. I don't always bring in collar though, I previously only ran one firespout and brought collar in as a third way to fight empty the warrens but no longer.
At least online hollow one is everywhere so delver creatures are seeing more play than ever and they help fill out the removal suite in a ton of other matchups so while its not a perfect card its the card we need IMO.
Collar may be less valuable now because there is less eldrazi but it doubles down as a powerful anti burn piece, let's you race/wall a fat Slippery Bogle, race etched champion, lets your snapcaster trade with a 7/7 champion of the parish, and really gives you a counter to so many aggressive draws in the format that would usually crush a tempo deck like this. Not many other cards can save you from a multiple hollow one+angler+Phoenix start, but collar can.
I think your point about putting a Collar on Snapcaster alone may have just convinced me. That sounds fantastic. And messing with combat against creature decks. I was thinking about it mostly to fight Eldrazi and the like, but you are right. It is much more versatile.
Edit: You mentioned boarding in Collar against Abzan because they don't have Kommand. Is that why it isn't included as coming in against Grixis Shadow? I guess they can Denial it too, but it seems really strong if it goes unanswered. Of course, we also need a threat to stick, but I find I usually lose because a threat that gets past removal (usually Mandrills) is outclassed by their threats.
When I first included collar I always brought it in against shadow but less often after being hit by command a few too many times. If they weren't so heavy on discard the counters would be better and it would be a safer play but I really don't like the two mana counters here, at least leak. It is a really good trump to their hard to deal with threats but if the game goes long they usually answer it. Perfectly reasonable to bring in though, a couple of stubborn denials can easily carry it to victory.
I think the mainboard is pretty standard for what people seem to be running. I'm trying out Curator (as inspired by Lemonbuster), but haven't played with it enough to have much of an opinion.
In the sideboard, I recently put in some graveyard hate and Spreading Seas. I want more game against yard decks, and Spreading Seas does work against a lot of decks, so I'm giving it another shot.
I want Basilisk Collar in the board. I'm thinking of dropping Rejection and Flashfreeze for Collar and a Disdainful Stroke. I would just cut Rejection for Collar because Collar covers most of those matchups, but I don't like the idea of making my Gx Tron matchup strictly worse than it is. Disdainful Stroke is worse than Rejection (mostly; it costs more and can't hit O-Stone, but it hits Thragtusk) there, but at least it's something. The only matchup that I want Flashfreeze in but don't want Stroke is Burn, which is generally great, and I'll have Collar, so I think it balances out nicely.
Anyone have better ideas for my sideboard configuration?
Just try to remember with curator it's a cantrip first and a threat second. I aggressively cycle it away where a 4/4 flyer isn't likely to be better than interaction. Being able to use it on turn one to help dig for lands/interaction is the best feature a creature can have in a 17 land deck. Doubling down as a threat against our worst matchups is gravy.
I like seas, bur with three slots already dedicated to blood moon, four total is a lot and limits your interaction suite quite a bit. I do like that it is good against both midrange/control AND the big mana decks. Have you tried clique here? In conjunction with counters it really enhances a permission suite IMO, and tutoring for it on a critical turn is great.
It stands out to me that you only have one Revelry and an EE to deal with RIP. I'm too scared to run without two Revelry myself. The cards just really good against us.
I also really like forked bolt here and have argued for it much in the past but with traverse I think I would always give the nod to tarfire. Unless forked bolt was in the board.
The counterspell debate is one I've had over this deck quite a bit and it's a tough call. The options are effective but narrow. I see flashfreeze has merits against burn but unless it hits deflecting palm it's generally going to work about 4 life. That's good but not gamebreaking. It's great against shift except...it misses through the breach. Falls flat against tron any all combo. I'm not sure where this card shines in the format honestly. Stroke is good against tron, shift, ad nauseum, reasonable against storm for gifts/pif, Ok against jeskai for nahiri and cryptic but not great, effective against eldrazi, and other places but some matchups where you really want an extra counter it does nothing. Like lantern control for example. Rejection is probably the most powerful overall but the most narrow. A bomb against tron, lantern, eldrazi, and affinity(countering champion is amazing), hits lotus bloom from ad nauseum...ect. But completely misses archetypes all together.
In a deck where you already have moon clogging up the board space, most of us are already compromising on graveyard hate to do so. That makes every sideboard slot incredibly valuable, meaning narrow counters arnt going to be as big of a contributor as one you can bring in to a diverse array of matchups. This is why Deprive has been my go to complement to mana leak in this deck. I would say at least 80% of the time it is functionally counterspell. We always miss land drops so replaying a land the next turn is usually not even a draw back. I often use it on my turn to generate a mana (net loss of one mana for counterspell? Wow) when opponents try to disrupt my combat step with removal. Sure, the land bounce can hurt occasionally, but nothing makes a counterspell worse than being dead in hand or not even worth bringing in to matchups where you need another counter desperately. Deprive never misses and comes in whenever I need more permission. I love it.
@mike
I see you dropped a mandrills. What led to that?
Also, how has extraction been for you?
I'm glad I see so many of us on Knuckeblade now. So many wouldn't give him a chance!
If you wanted to add both collar and disdainful you could cut rejection and seas so you could keep flashfreeze (I like it a lot btw).
I'm partial to Seas, not because I've seen it do all that much, but it is usable in so many matchups! Affinity, Eldrazi, Tron, Shadow, Jeskai, UW, BGx, Burn, and Titanshift! That is a lot of versatility. Of course, if I find it doesn't really do much (or as Lemonbuster mentioned, I end up with too much land hate), it'll get cut again.
Just try to remember with curator it's a cantrip first and a threat second.
This is definitely a mindset I need to get into. I've held onto Curator for probably much longer than I should.
Have you tried clique here? In conjunction with counters it really enhances a permission suite IMO, and tutoring for it on a critical turn is great.
I'm not sure I have ever cast Clique actually. I really should try it sometime soon. I'll try to get on that once I get Collar down. Tutoring for permission (when there aren't counters in the yard for Snap to do the trick) sounds handy.
It stands out to me that you only have one Revelry and an EE to deal with RIP. I'm too scared to run without two Revelry myself. The cards just really good against us.
Do you deal with RIP often? I don't remember the last time I saw one. I come across Relic just about every League though. I don't think many people are running RIP these days. Mostly UW or the odd Affinity deck. The second Revelry might work its way back in though. It is really good.
I also really like forked bolt here and have argued for it much in the past but with traverse I think I would always give the nod to tarfire. Unless forked bolt was in the board.
I am a huge fan of Forked Bolt. When it is bad, it is usually the first "Bolt" to go postboard, but it is often a house. Tarfire is almost always better for Goyf/Traverse, but we don't have too many Sorceries. I think the Baubles and first Tarfire do enough to let one Forked in. If I run a seventh burn spell, it would probably be second Tarfire.
In a deck where you already have moon clogging up the board space, most of us are already compromising on graveyard hate to do so. That makes every sideboard slot incredibly valuable, meaning narrow counters arnt going to be as big of a contributor as one you can bring in to a diverse array of matchups. This is why Deprive has been my go to complement to mana leak in this deck. I would say at least 80% of the time it is functionally counterspell. We always miss land drops so replaying a land the next turn is usually not even a draw back. I often use it on my turn to generate a mana (net loss of one mana for counterspell? Wow) when opponents try to disrupt my combat step with removal. Sure, the land bounce can hurt occasionally, but nothing makes a counterspell worse than being dead in hand or not even worth bringing in to matchups where you need another counter desperately. Deprive never misses and comes in whenever I need more permission. I love it.
This actually never occurred to me. I am doing that immediately. I'll miss paying less for Rejection, and the second mana being Blue might hurt, but that is an amazing point.
Edit: On the graveyard hate portion of this quote, sideboard space is exactly why I went straight to Anger for grave hate. It doesn't come in against many of the most popular decks (a characteristic shared by Ravenous Trap), but it is also a sweeper, which means it is coming in against just about every creature-heavy deck, and definitely all of the Tribal ones. I'd love to replace Trap with something else, but I'm not sure I want 2 Anger. That might be a little much on my tempo and mana. I don't want to cut Pyroclasm, and space issues makes me think that having 4 sweepers (2 Anger, Pyro, EE) is going too far. I like that Trap does at least something against Storm, but I don't want to have dedicated graveyard hate.
Are there any cards we can run that perform like grave hate, but are a bit more versatile (Rakdos Charm for example)? Or maybe deal with graveyard decks through some other angle? Or, should I go back to not having real hate (but keeping Anger), and just improve other matchups at the cost of Dredge, Living End, and Hollow One?
Flashfreeze does counter through the Breach since it's a red spell. I cut the mandrill because it's difficult to cast more than two of them in a game. With Traverse you get them quite easily. And tracker is a main deck card against midrange.
Rip is annoying but among chandra, tracker, knucks (a real bomb) and huntmaster you can play around it quite well.
Surgical is a test. I'll report how it performs.
I like fetch for basic aggressively so I don't like double U of deprive. And bouncing a land if you are screwed is awful. I'm too afraid of that to use it.
@mnesci
I like that seas can complement blood moon by turning off opponents basics. During eldrazi winter most of us were running 3 moon 2 seas and it worked great. Hitti manlands is really good too. Three blood moon can be awkward sometimes when your opponents draws a waste/basics. Even when moon is a bomb drawing multiplex can lose you games. I could see a 2/1 split but if you havnt tried tutoring up a Magus of the moon, it's awesome. Can't bring it in against bolt but so often I can bring it in as my only moon affect and have great access to it. Humans is a great example where it's much better than moon. Naturally helps against multi moon draws as against decks like jeskai you only bring in two. Against decks like eldrazi, you essentially have 6 blood moons. Prettt sweet.
There's a reason clique has seen so much play in eternal formats. It's not a big player in modern for a number of reasons but what is essentially a pre-flipped delver with flash for three mana it absolutely fits into our aggressive gameplan while extending your game against any deck trying to go over the top of you. Doubles down as great against removal heavy decks. (Steal a push/demands a push). I personally wish I could fit it in.
There's a bigger showing of death and taxes/coco/soul sisters and things like that online so perhaps I see more that others. Boros burn too. Revelry is great elsewhere so it's not there necessarily because RIP is everywhere.
I will add that deprive is naturally a better sideboard card for us than a MB inclusion as I am currently doing, because then you only have to fetch for it when you bring it in. Also, if you board it in that means they have 'must-counter' spells so the land bounce should generally be even more likely to be negligible. I only moved it to the main recently in an attempt to get more out of my sideboard.
There's loaming shaman or ooze. There's also that dinosaur. 3/2 for 2G, exiles stuff in the yard to gain life or a pump, but I don't know if those are fast enough.
@mike
Whoops, I forgot what flashfreeze did halfway through that post it seems...lol
I'm interested in your tracker results
I like the idea of extraction. Beats goryo. Against dredge pulling amalgam seems like it would often be enough. Other than that conflagrate can beat you but their aggro plan would be diminished. Against living end if you counter the first living end you just extract it and it leaves them dead in the water. Plus snapcaster lets you do it twice for only two mana total. That's cool.
I already tried tracker some time ago and it was better than expected in pretty any match up. It seems harmless but it's a decent beater on its own and grows and let you draw card pretty quickly almost neutering dead draws when you are at top deck. Sometimes it could be a bit slow, but you can easily side it out if needed. If you play it turn four then drop a fetch you have two free cards (for when you have time to sink mana) and a mana up. And it mess up with combat damage maths which is always a good thing.
I like the idea of extraction. Beats goryo. Against dredge pulling amalgam seems like it would often be enough. Other than that conflagrate can beat you but their aggro plan would be diminished. Against living end if you counter the first living end you just extract it and it leaves them dead in the water. Plus snapcaster lets you do it twice for only two mana total. That's cool.
That's exactly why I put it in. I'll add that you look at opponent's hand which never hurts.
Conflagrate is just a spell and can be countered.
EDIT: I think I'm going to drop chart a course. I feel them too slow. I'm going to replace them with a roast and maybe a sleight of hand. I'm not sure of the latter: it could also be a counter (spell snare?) or another burn piece (forked bolt?).
I'd like to put a spicy thing in that slot (a sorcery would be the best) but I can't think of anything worth.
I've chosen to skip sideboard hate all together. The only time i really want graveyard hate is when i'm playing against dredge, which feels like a bad matchup. I think our countermagic beats most or all of the other graveyard strategies
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GDS is definitely a different beast, and drawing a bunch of cards is good there. I did board in Reveler against them, but it wasn't long until I cut Reveler from the board. GDS still has a lot of fatties (not as consistently due to a lack of Traverse), but I think Reveler might be worth it here. My problem with it against GDS is to play towards Reveler, we need more ways to answer fatties. I've faced down Tasigur with Reveler stuck in my hand, and I hated every second of it. And they can slow down Reveler with Spell bomb.
As far as clocking speed, GDS>Jund>Abzan>Jeskai(probably faster than this spot with Geist)>hard control. The faster and more consistently Midrange decks can clock, the less I like Reveler postboard. I think GDS is past that threshold.
Everyone's thoughts?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
True. I played with it when the temur reveler list was developed. It's surely powerful and one of best threat agains midrange deck. What I meant (and maybe wasn't enough clear) is that sometimes it's not enough.
You have to add discards (and liliana) to the equation but surely reveler helps to match or going ahead.
Then you talk about 4 drops. I agree with what you said. But In my tests reveler never costed less than 4 to cast and usually costed more. That was my biggest issue. It was too difficult to cast. It's true you need it mid-late game but the more you wait, the more your opponent can nuke your graveyard. Definetly 6-8 to cast is too much.
She can't get rid of delve creatures or goyf by herself but she lets bolt or tarfire become hard removals. If they have a threat and you don't, reveler (if castable) is a better topdeck. In any case even if they kill her the next attack, it's as you gained a bunch of life and another turn to do something (doing a couple of damage in the meantime) and sometimes is enough. If they spent an attack and they didn't kill her (attack for 4, chumpblock etc.) you are as you said in a wonderful spot.
Thanks for sharing. I find this test results extremely useful.
@Mnesci
I agree with you analisys
Modern:
This list looks pretty amazing!!
I know that it can be a lot of work but would it be possible to have a simple in & out list as a SB plan.
I think that would help many of us here!
As you said you've put many hours into the list and i'm keen to find out more!
Thanks mate,
Ezi.
I've been trying some sideboard tweaks as I've been seeing more of the meta. The MD right now is: -1 remand +1 deprive.
Sideboard is: -1 deprive -1 vendilion clique +1 roast +1 bedlam reveler. Hurts the big mana matchups and combo but way too many fair decks are being played right now and roast is now a premium sideboard piece IMO.
Burn:
-4 Delver
-2 snag
-1 curator
+1 basilisk collar
+1 feed the clan
+2 roast
+2 firespout
+1 EE
Affinity:
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+2 firespout
+2 roast
+1 basilisk collar
+1 EE
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
-1 vapor snag
-1 serum visions
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-1 stubborn denial
-1 mishra's bauble
Living End:
+1 bog
+1 basilisk collar
+2 roast
-2 spell snare (lol...)
-2 tarfire
Storm:
-2 snag
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
+2 firespout
+1 EE
+1 bog
(Collar is also an option here over a cantrip as empty the warrens can't beat you and it's plausible to put yourself out of grapeshot range)
Dredge:
+1 bog
+2 firespout
+1 basilisk collar
+1 feed the clan
-2 mana leak
-1 deprive
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
Bogles:
+2 destructive revelry
+1 EE
+2 blood moon
+1 magus of the moon
+2 firespout
-2 vapor snag
-2 tarfire
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
-2 lightning bolt
Jund:
+1 Bedlam Reveler
+2 blood moon
+2 roast
+1 EE
-2 tarfire
-3 stubborn denial
-1 deprive
Abzan:
+2 blood moon
+1 magus of the moon
+1 EE
+2 roast
+1 basilisk collar (they don't have K command so it races souls/rhino)
+1 reveler
-2 tarfire
-1 deprive
-3 stubborn denial
-2 mana leak
-1 lightning bolt
Grixis/jund/four/five color shadow:
+2 roast
+1 EE
+2 blood moon
+1 reveler
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-2 tarfire
-1 thought scour
These decks are hard to board against because the burn is so good even tarfire sometimes gets the nod which makes it hard to include other interaction. Their best threats costs one so mana leak isn't great here. Also a ton of variance between lists make this plan very loose and deck list specific.
Mardu:
+2 firespout
+1 EE
+2 roast
+1 basilisk collar
+1 bedlam reveler
-2 vapor snag
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-2 tarfire
Tron:
+2 blood moon
+1 magus
+2 revelery
+1 grudge
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
-2 tarfire
-2 spell snare
Eldrazi tron:
+2 roast
+2 moon
+1 magus
+1 collar
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
-3 stubborn denial
-2 spell snare
-2 tarfire
Humans/merfolk:
+2 revelery
+2 spout
+1 EE
+2 roast
+1 collar
+1 magus
-3 denial
-2 leak
-1 deprive
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
-1 vapor snag
uwr/uw/grixis
+2 blood moon
+1 reveler
Grixis gets both roasts, jeskai and WR get both destructive revelry so 5 total slots out/in
-2 tarfire
-3 bolt
If UW has queller or Geist this changes a bit.
KKC/ad nauseum/lantern:
-2 snag
-2 tarfire
-1 curator
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+1 magus
+1/2 blood moon
Lantern/nauseum gets EE and drops 1 or 2 spell snare.
BR hollow one:
+2 roast
+1 bog
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+1 collar
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-1 curator
-2 stubborn denial
-1 savage knuckleblade
Titanshift:
+2 moon
+1 grudge
+2 revelry
+2 roast (courser/baloth)
-2 tarfire
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
-3 bolt
CoCo:
-1 deprive
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
-2 stubborn denial
-1 vapor snag
+2 roast
+2 firespout
+1 EE
+1 destructive revelry (RIP and Choke)
Death & taxes:
+2 roast
+2 spout
+1 EE
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+1 collar
+1 magus
-3 stubborn denial
-1 deprive
-2 snag
-2 mana leak
-1 knuckleblade
-1 spell snare
I don't have this written down anywhere so I don't always follow this exact plan and oftentimes people have unique lists that call for unique setups. Sometimes I'll leave in an extra counter, or leave in knuckleblade, or bring in feed the clan against aggro, or take out a cantrips to include more interaction- all depending on individual opponents lists- but this is a good place to start for each matchup. I did it quick so sorry for any errors.
Thanks so much for taking the time!
I've been gold fishing the deck and i can really see the power of traverse aye - that card is a house, especially with snap as well.
Thanks again!
Ezi
Traverse really is awesome. Makes so many one land hands keepers that would otherwise be questionable and has so much late game power.
Modern:
Against Living End, does Bojuka Bog come down quickly enough? I understand that the goal is to Traverse for it, so you end up with 4 pieces of graveyard hate, but how soon do you usually have Delirium? Curator definitely helps, but I haven't played enough with it to know by how much.
On Storm, is boarding in Basilisk Collar even worth it? It slows down the Empty kill, but there are plenty of ways to stop that. On getting out of Grapeshot range, Grapeshot can be Remanded and flashed back. Life gain can make the kill harder for them to assemble, but if you are actually safe, the Storm player is out of life from all the damage you did.
I recently threw Roast back in the board because I want more ways to kill fatties. Hoping it does work. Also, promo Roast is gorgeous.
I also might try fitting Collar into the board because it sounds great, but space is always tight.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Bog in itself is pretty weak. Getting what is essentially colorless mana from it after is nice and it has synergy with deprive but it can't be the only interaction you have against grace decks. For living end you're most likely going to have to counter 1 living end and then on your following turn when you play bog, they 99% of the time living end again in response which you obviously must also counter. Generally that leaves them pretty much out of gas or at least gives you a window to win. I think my delerium access is pretty good. I lose to end because I don't have a second counter or don't find traverse/bog but not really because traverse is dead. Curator is cute here but isn't a huge game changer, although only jungle weaver/macabre blocks it so if they have to cast end on their turn you could get a chance to bash for four.
Yeah you're right about collar and grapeshot. Only if they don't have a baral and/or PIf would the storm be low enough to matter. I will say that they seem to always go for the empty the warrens plan with me, hoping to spit out a bunch of tokens early when I'm establishing a board. I don't always bring in collar though, I previously only ran one firespout and brought collar in as a third way to fight empty the warrens but no longer.
At least online hollow one is everywhere so delver creatures are seeing more play than ever and they help fill out the removal suite in a ton of other matchups so while its not a perfect card its the card we need IMO.
Collar may be less valuable now because there is less eldrazi but it doubles down as a powerful anti burn piece, let's you race/wall a fat Slippery Bogle, race etched champion, lets your snapcaster trade with a 7/7 champion of the parish, and really gives you a counter to so many aggressive draws in the format that would usually crush a tempo deck like this. Not many other cards can save you from a multiple hollow one+angler+Phoenix start, but collar can.
Edit: You mentioned boarding in Collar against Abzan because they don't have Kommand. Is that why it isn't included as coming in against Grixis Shadow? I guess they can Denial it too, but it seems really strong if it goes unanswered. Of course, we also need a threat to stick, but I find I usually lose because a threat that gets past removal (usually Mandrills) is outclassed by their threats.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Hooting Mandrills
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Savage Knuckleblade
1x Curator of Mysteries
2x Spell Snare
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Mana Leak
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Tarfire
1x Forked Bolt
1x Vapor Snag
1x Simic Charm
1x Dismember
4x Serum Visions
3x Thought Scour
2x Traverse the Ulvenwald
3x Mishra's Bauble
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Steam Vents
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Destructive Revelry
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Flashfreeze
3x Blood Moon
1x Spreading Seas
1x Pyroclasm
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Roast
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
I think the mainboard is pretty standard for what people seem to be running. I'm trying out Curator (as inspired by Lemonbuster), but haven't played with it enough to have much of an opinion.
In the sideboard, I recently put in some graveyard hate and Spreading Seas. I want more game against yard decks, and Spreading Seas does work against a lot of decks, so I'm giving it another shot.
For reference, how I sideboard against popular decks with my current 75 (the Traverse tab).
I want Basilisk Collar in the board. I'm thinking of dropping Rejection and Flashfreeze for Collar and a Disdainful Stroke. I would just cut Rejection for Collar because Collar covers most of those matchups, but I don't like the idea of making my Gx Tron matchup strictly worse than it is. Disdainful Stroke is worse than Rejection (mostly; it costs more and can't hit O-Stone, but it hits Thragtusk) there, but at least it's something. The only matchup that I want Flashfreeze in but don't want Stroke is Burn, which is generally great, and I'll have Collar, so I think it balances out nicely.
Anyone have better ideas for my sideboard configuration?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
I'm playing this list right now:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Tarfire
1 Echoing Truth
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Mana Leak
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
2 Chart a Course
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Firespout
1 Roast
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Flashfreeze
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
I tried Curator but didn't like it. Got back to tracker since it performed well and liked it a lot in previous test.
Modern:
I like seas, bur with three slots already dedicated to blood moon, four total is a lot and limits your interaction suite quite a bit. I do like that it is good against both midrange/control AND the big mana decks. Have you tried clique here? In conjunction with counters it really enhances a permission suite IMO, and tutoring for it on a critical turn is great.
It stands out to me that you only have one Revelry and an EE to deal with RIP. I'm too scared to run without two Revelry myself. The cards just really good against us.
I also really like forked bolt here and have argued for it much in the past but with traverse I think I would always give the nod to tarfire. Unless forked bolt was in the board.
The counterspell debate is one I've had over this deck quite a bit and it's a tough call. The options are effective but narrow. I see flashfreeze has merits against burn but unless it hits deflecting palm it's generally going to work about 4 life. That's good but not gamebreaking. It's great against shift except...it misses through the breach. Falls flat against tron any all combo. I'm not sure where this card shines in the format honestly. Stroke is good against tron, shift, ad nauseum, reasonable against storm for gifts/pif, Ok against jeskai for nahiri and cryptic but not great, effective against eldrazi, and other places but some matchups where you really want an extra counter it does nothing. Like lantern control for example. Rejection is probably the most powerful overall but the most narrow. A bomb against tron, lantern, eldrazi, and affinity(countering champion is amazing), hits lotus bloom from ad nauseum...ect. But completely misses archetypes all together.
In a deck where you already have moon clogging up the board space, most of us are already compromising on graveyard hate to do so. That makes every sideboard slot incredibly valuable, meaning narrow counters arnt going to be as big of a contributor as one you can bring in to a diverse array of matchups. This is why Deprive has been my go to complement to mana leak in this deck. I would say at least 80% of the time it is functionally counterspell. We always miss land drops so replaying a land the next turn is usually not even a draw back. I often use it on my turn to generate a mana (net loss of one mana for counterspell? Wow) when opponents try to disrupt my combat step with removal. Sure, the land bounce can hurt occasionally, but nothing makes a counterspell worse than being dead in hand or not even worth bringing in to matchups where you need another counter desperately. Deprive never misses and comes in whenever I need more permission. I love it.
@mike
I see you dropped a mandrills. What led to that?
Also, how has extraction been for you?
I'm glad I see so many of us on Knuckeblade now. So many wouldn't give him a chance!
I'm partial to Seas, not because I've seen it do all that much, but it is usable in so many matchups! Affinity, Eldrazi, Tron, Shadow, Jeskai, UW, BGx, Burn, and Titanshift! That is a lot of versatility. Of course, if I find it doesn't really do much (or as Lemonbuster mentioned, I end up with too much land hate), it'll get cut again.
What do you all think of going 2 Moon, 1 Seas?
This is definitely a mindset I need to get into. I've held onto Curator for probably much longer than I should.
I'm not sure I have ever cast Clique actually. I really should try it sometime soon. I'll try to get on that once I get Collar down. Tutoring for permission (when there aren't counters in the yard for Snap to do the trick) sounds handy.
Do you deal with RIP often? I don't remember the last time I saw one. I come across Relic just about every League though. I don't think many people are running RIP these days. Mostly UW or the odd Affinity deck. The second Revelry might work its way back in though. It is really good.
I am a huge fan of Forked Bolt. When it is bad, it is usually the first "Bolt" to go postboard, but it is often a house. Tarfire is almost always better for Goyf/Traverse, but we don't have too many Sorceries. I think the Baubles and first Tarfire do enough to let one Forked in. If I run a seventh burn spell, it would probably be second Tarfire.
This actually never occurred to me. I am doing that immediately. I'll miss paying less for Rejection, and the second mana being Blue might hurt, but that is an amazing point.
Edit: On the graveyard hate portion of this quote, sideboard space is exactly why I went straight to Anger for grave hate. It doesn't come in against many of the most popular decks (a characteristic shared by Ravenous Trap), but it is also a sweeper, which means it is coming in against just about every creature-heavy deck, and definitely all of the Tribal ones. I'd love to replace Trap with something else, but I'm not sure I want 2 Anger. That might be a little much on my tempo and mana. I don't want to cut Pyroclasm, and space issues makes me think that having 4 sweepers (2 Anger, Pyro, EE) is going too far. I like that Trap does at least something against Storm, but I don't want to have dedicated graveyard hate.
Are there any cards we can run that perform like grave hate, but are a bit more versatile (Rakdos Charm for example)? Or maybe deal with graveyard decks through some other angle? Or, should I go back to not having real hate (but keeping Anger), and just improve other matchups at the cost of Dredge, Living End, and Hollow One?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Rip is annoying but among chandra, tracker, knucks (a real bomb) and huntmaster you can play around it quite well.
Surgical is a test. I'll report how it performs.
I like fetch for basic aggressively so I don't like double U of deprive. And bouncing a land if you are screwed is awful. I'm too afraid of that to use it.
Modern:
I like that seas can complement blood moon by turning off opponents basics. During eldrazi winter most of us were running 3 moon 2 seas and it worked great. Hitti manlands is really good too. Three blood moon can be awkward sometimes when your opponents draws a waste/basics. Even when moon is a bomb drawing multiplex can lose you games. I could see a 2/1 split but if you havnt tried tutoring up a Magus of the moon, it's awesome. Can't bring it in against bolt but so often I can bring it in as my only moon affect and have great access to it. Humans is a great example where it's much better than moon. Naturally helps against multi moon draws as against decks like jeskai you only bring in two. Against decks like eldrazi, you essentially have 6 blood moons. Prettt sweet.
There's a reason clique has seen so much play in eternal formats. It's not a big player in modern for a number of reasons but what is essentially a pre-flipped delver with flash for three mana it absolutely fits into our aggressive gameplan while extending your game against any deck trying to go over the top of you. Doubles down as great against removal heavy decks. (Steal a push/demands a push). I personally wish I could fit it in.
There's a bigger showing of death and taxes/coco/soul sisters and things like that online so perhaps I see more that others. Boros burn too. Revelry is great elsewhere so it's not there necessarily because RIP is everywhere.
I will add that deprive is naturally a better sideboard card for us than a MB inclusion as I am currently doing, because then you only have to fetch for it when you bring it in. Also, if you board it in that means they have 'must-counter' spells so the land bounce should generally be even more likely to be negligible. I only moved it to the main recently in an attempt to get more out of my sideboard.
There's loaming shaman or ooze. There's also that dinosaur. 3/2 for 2G, exiles stuff in the yard to gain life or a pump, but I don't know if those are fast enough.
@mike
Whoops, I forgot what flashfreeze did halfway through that post it seems...lol
I'm interested in your tracker results
I like the idea of extraction. Beats goryo. Against dredge pulling amalgam seems like it would often be enough. Other than that conflagrate can beat you but their aggro plan would be diminished. Against living end if you counter the first living end you just extract it and it leaves them dead in the water. Plus snapcaster lets you do it twice for only two mana total. That's cool.
I already tried tracker some time ago and it was better than expected in pretty any match up. It seems harmless but it's a decent beater on its own and grows and let you draw card pretty quickly almost neutering dead draws when you are at top deck. Sometimes it could be a bit slow, but you can easily side it out if needed. If you play it turn four then drop a fetch you have two free cards (for when you have time to sink mana) and a mana up. And it mess up with combat damage maths which is always a good thing.
That's exactly why I put it in. I'll add that you look at opponent's hand which never hurts.
Conflagrate is just a spell and can be countered.
EDIT: I think I'm going to drop chart a course. I feel them too slow. I'm going to replace them with a roast and maybe a sleight of hand. I'm not sure of the latter: it could also be a counter (spell snare?) or another burn piece (forked bolt?).
I'd like to put a spicy thing in that slot (a sorcery would be the best) but I can't think of anything worth.
Modern: