I'm definitely not the right guy to ask. But for the next little while I'm going to go against the popular choices and play cards I want to play with. I'm going to go back up to 4 shoals, I'm going to split the difference and add 2 thermo-alchemist and 2 take into custody. If they want to burn a removal spell on the alchemists it's one less for our better threats, if they don't we get in significant extra damage for our instant and sorceries count.
Custody will tap down larger threats for 2 attack phases hopefully adding to our tempo. And I'm going to work in chart a course to round things out.
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Are you saying you don't like the delayed draw from Bauble? The fact that we don't get to see the card right away does slow us down somewhat, in comparison to a card like Probe.
If that is your main problem, I think cutting Bauble is defensible. I think its benefits outweigh that aspect, but the logic makes sense. I'm working on a more Tempo-focused Shoal build myself that I will hopefully test out soon. Going up on Shoal makes Bauble a lot worse, so I'm going to start by trimming one. I think cutting Bauble is even more defensible when you are actively trying to support Shoal more.
If you aren't aiming at maximizing Shoal's potential, I think that Bauble is something that you want. It can slow us down a bit, but it can also speed us up. The main draw then is the fact that we have a ~56 card deck, meaning we are more likely to draw our best cards. If you take that kind of approach, I'd just trim whatever other cards you find lackluster and add the burn/tap effects to get more reach. I think I'm going to take this sort of approach for my Tempo build, running a couple of Baubles and just trimming whatever cards I like least.
I'm saying that I feel like bauble has become a trap card. I think it's an unpopular opinion because of the amount of things it CAN do that probe did.
IE Help flip delver, grow goyf, and makes traverse certainly a lot better. But People have to agree it's just not probe.
Goyf has been knocked down a peg solely on the back of fatal push. And it's NECESSARY in our deck. I think we get spread thin having to decide if we hedge against the chance we face down a push deck and go with a shoal build or use bauble to help grow goyf vs our current meta allstars in shadow and eldrazi. But it seems to me having a 5/6 goyf on the table just isn't cutting it.
It's not that I don't like the delayed draw that bauble gives. But if card advantage is what we are looking for then I am on the side of this thread that believes chart a course is just fine in this deck.I think only once or twice in the 20 games I've played with it I've had to ever discard a card. We discussed that at worse it can put two card types in the GY for goyf. And it acts as a pseudo spell snare with shoal.
So this is what I'm going to try for a while using my favorite pet cards and all
Ive been tempted to play with artful dodge in the place of take into custody. Again looking to push through damage more agressively Plus playing shoals to protect our creatures doing so better.
Are you saying you don't like the delayed draw from Bauble? The fact that we don't get to see the card right away does slow us down somewhat, in comparison to a card like Probe.
If that is your main problem, I think cutting Bauble is defensible. I think its benefits outweigh that aspect, but the logic makes sense. I'm working on a more Tempo-focused Shoal build myself that I will hopefully test out soon. Going up on Shoal makes Bauble a lot worse, so I'm going to start by trimming one. I think cutting Bauble is even more defensible when you are actively trying to support Shoal more.
If you aren't aiming at maximizing Shoal's potential, I think that Bauble is something that you want. It can slow us down a bit, but it can also speed us up. The main draw then is the fact that we have a ~56 card deck, meaning we are more likely to draw our best cards. If you take that kind of approach, I'd just trim whatever other cards you find lackluster and add the burn/tap effects to get more reach. I think I'm going to take this sort of approach for my Tempo build, running a couple of Baubles and just trimming whatever cards I like least.
Good analysis. It's Bauble or Shoal IMO.
@ON nobody said Bauble "was" Probe. But Probe is banned and Bauble is the best pound-for-pound replacement re: velocity. Overloading removal spells is a Goyf-supporting plan I endorse, as is making him huge, but your build doesn't seem to do either of those things very well.
Regarding Alchemist, thinking of it as a worst-case-scenario removal magnet won't do you any favors because the card costs 2CMC and dies to all the 1CMC removal spells. Cards must trade with answers at parity to be considered for that role, i.e. Monastery Swiftspear. Otherwise you're just opening yourself up to free tempo losses.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
The strength of bauble is that grows your goyf for free helping meanwhile at flipping delver, giving us some informations (not much, but more than nothing), and growing the yard speeding up mandrills. So in a game can result in more than a few damage by itself. That said I can see adding a few burn spells (I'd add Incinerate if you play at least 2 Tarfires).
About Take into custody. I thought about it too. It's actually an interesting card but I always felt it weaker than other card. So I'm interested in your test. I'd like to hear about your considerations.
Thermo-Alchemist doesn't flip delver. I'd rather play Savage Knucleblade in its slot but that's my playstyle. Again I'd like to hear the results of your test in any case.
By the way I'm going to test in the 2nd Knucks slot a Tireless tracker. Don't know if it belongs to our deck, but I'm going to discover it.
Are you saying you don't like the delayed draw from Bauble? The fact that we don't get to see the card right away does slow us down somewhat, in comparison to a card like Probe.
If that is your main problem, I think cutting Bauble is defensible. I think its benefits outweigh that aspect, but the logic makes sense. I'm working on a more Tempo-focused Shoal build myself that I will hopefully test out soon. Going up on Shoal makes Bauble a lot worse, so I'm going to start by trimming one. I think cutting Bauble is even more defensible when you are actively trying to support Shoal more.
If you aren't aiming at maximizing Shoal's potential, I think that Bauble is something that you want. It can slow us down a bit, but it can also speed us up. The main draw then is the fact that we have a ~56 card deck, meaning we are more likely to draw our best cards. If you take that kind of approach, I'd just trim whatever other cards you find lackluster and add the burn/tap effects to get more reach. I think I'm going to take this sort of approach for my Tempo build, running a couple of Baubles and just trimming whatever cards I like least.
Good analysis. It's Bauble or Shoal IMO.
@ON nobody said Bauble "was" Probe. But Probe is banned and Bauble is the best pound-for-pound replacement re: velocity. Overloading removal spells is a Goyf-supporting plan I endorse, as is making him huge, but your build doesn't seem to do either of those things very well.
Regarding Alchemist, thinking of it as a worst-case-scenario removal magnet won't do you any favors because the card costs 2CMC and dies to all the 1CMC removal spells. Cards must trade with answers at parity to be considered for that role, i.e. Monastery Swiftspear. Otherwise you're just opening yourself up to free tempo losses.
The hard part is it doesn't really matter what creature we put in this spot they all die to something. even knucks can be pushed or pathed with relative ease outside of whatever spells we have to protect anything we have on board anyway and that's what people on here are moving towards. I think the potential for stealing a game with either knucks or alchemist activations is 50/50. The only hedge knucks gets is making our stubborn denials better. We have all discussed at length that right now there just isn't anything good enough for the slot. It's solely my opinion but at least having a card that can turn our bolts into 5 to the dome, close out a stalled board, block small aggro creatures. If it's alive it's actively making our opponent dead rather than being blocked.
MikeFon: Of course alchemist doesn't flip delver. But neither does Knucks anyway?? And TOTALLY take into custody might be the wrong card, probably even 2 more vapor snags would even be better... Just trying to make something work.
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Regarding Alchemist, thinking of it as a worst-case-scenario removal magnet won't do you any favors because the card costs 2CMC and dies to all the 1CMC removal spells. Cards must trade with answers at parity to be considered for that role, i.e. Monastery Swiftspear. Otherwise you're just opening yourself up to free tempo losses.
Ob, if you want the reach Alchemist gives you (it sounds like you really like the card), run it. To the point of removal magnets, I think Ashton is right that you are going to want the Push magnet to cost one mana. I actually think that Narnam Renegade is a better option than Swiftspear. Swiftspear looks small here, and deathtouch is both very useful and a magnet for removal. If you are looking to be really aggressive and change up the deck accordingly, Swiftspear might work for you.
The strength of bauble is that grows your goyf for free helping meanwhile at flipping delver, giving us some informations (not much, but more than nothing), and growing the yard speeding up mandrills. So in a game can result in more than a few damage by itself. That said I can see adding a few burn spells (I'd add Incinerate if you play at least 2 Tarfires).
About Take into custody. I thought about it too. It's actually an interesting card but I always felt it weaker than other card. So I'm interested in your test. I'd like to hear about your considerations.
Thermo-Alchemist doesn't flip delver. I'd rather play Savage Knucleblade in its slot but that's my playstyle. Again I'd like to hear the results of your test in any case.
By the way I'm going to test in the 2nd Knucks slot a Tireless tracker. Don't know if it belongs to our deck, but I'm going to discover it.
Keep us posted on how Tracker performs. It could be very good, but I haven't tried it because I fear we don't have enough lands to make it really work.
I think your list is really interesting because it looks a lot how I imagine my Chart and Shoal deck will look. However, you are still running Traverse. My opinion is more lenient than Ashton's (I think you can play Bauble and Shoal if you don't go straight to playsets), but I don't think you can support Bauble, Shoal, and Traverse. You only have 14 one mana Blue cards to pitch to Shoal. That is really low. You have 9 two mana spells, which is great, but I think you need more one CMC ones. There just isn't room for Bauble and Traverse in a deck looking to support Shoal. Not unless you start cutting Burn, lands, or threats, and I don't think we can afford much of that.
@Ob: knucks at least survives bolt that's the most played removal. In any case as I said before I think it is important to share test results. We are here to tweak the deck. It's not a competition but a common work. I hope someone can break the deck with the perfect idea!
@Mnesci: I know that 1 mana blue spell count is low. But I think that there isn't anything as strong as traverse. Blue 1 mana spells are weak. Only exceptions are visions that are already in. I'll try and report. I'm not completely sold on tracker too due to the low land count, but I just want to try.
I don't know how okay it is to discuss Counter Cat stuff here, but the plays in that situation translate almost perfectly to RUG, so I doubt there is actually anything wrong with looking at the lines we can take.
You don't have enough life to survive an attack from the opponent. Elspeth can make any of those creatures unlockable and lethal, so they all have to go. That means we are going to fire off the Pyroclasm. Otherwise we die. First though, we are attacking the Elspeth with Huntmaster and the Wolf. They will die to Pyroclasm, so the attack is free. I don't like attacking with Mandrills because they might see the Pyroclasm coming, and decide to trade some tokens for it. A sweeper is our only real out, so they don't have much reason not to take out Mandrills. I want it to survive because it is our only clock, and our only way to take out that Elspeth after.
Pyroclasm will take out whatever tokens don't block, and Cult Leader will die to state-based actions.
On the opponent's turn, they probably make a token to present lethal again. Play Needle naming Elspeth, and go at the opponent's life total. Hold onto the EE in case they make more tokens. You may need to use the EE early to kill the leftover token because it wins the game if left unchecked for a few turns. You can't afford to hold Mandrills back to block because we need to clock them as fast as possible. We don't want them to draw many cards.
That requires the Spell Pierce to protect our threat, them to draw kind of terribly, and us to draw some good stuff (I'm assuming they will hit at least a couple of threats/pieces of removal in five to six turns). I find it extremely unlikely that we win, but it is possible, and I think that line gives us the best chance to win.
I played the needle and held up spell pierce to get to ee next turn with hunt master alive because it was going to be hard to come back without him. If they attacked with what they had on board I would have lived at one with monkey and hm left. They played another 2 Mana anthem so I died. Was hoping they tried for another pw or more tokens. I just felt it was still winnable and was wondering how other people thought was the correct play.
I played the needle and held up spell pierce to get to ee next turn with hunt master alive because it was going to be hard to come back without him. If they attacked with what they had on board I would have lived at one with monkey and hm left. They played another 2 Mana anthem so I died. Was hoping they tried for another pw or more tokens. I just felt it was still winnable and was wondering how other people thought was the correct play.
Could be counting wrong (either us or mnesci is) but this is my line too. Odds are they don't draw something good and try flashing back Souls, which we can Pierce (and don't even need to thanks to EE). Spend the next turn wiping with EE and then start flipping Hunt again.
JW, why did you post a Counter-Cat question in this thread?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I blanked on playing Needle immediately to go to one. That might be better. Stopping Elspeth as soon as possible seems promising. It leaves you dead to the anthem you died to, but it doesn't take much to die to those. I'm not sure what line I'd take.
I played the needle and held up spell pierce to get to ee next turn with hunt master alive because it was going to be hard to come back without him. If they attacked with what they had on board I would have lived at one with monkey and hm left. They played another 2 Mana anthem so I died. Was hoping they tried for another pw or more tokens. I just felt it was still winnable and was wondering how other people thought was the correct play.
Could be counting wrong (either us or mnesci is) but this is my line too. Odds are they don't draw something good and try flashing back Souls, which we can Pierce (and don't even need to thanks to EE). Spend the next turn wiping with EE and then start flipping Hunt again.
JW, why did you post a Counter-Cat question in this thread?
Since I look at them so often I keep both threads open in different tabs on my comp. I was just in the wrong one when I posted and didn't realize. Tho like what mnesci said this board state has all the card temur plays so I didn't bother deleting. Sorry, won't happen again. Also thanks for the input everyone.
Custody will tap down larger threats for 2 attack phases hopefully adding to our tempo. And I'm going to work in chart a course to round things out.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
If that is your main problem, I think cutting Bauble is defensible. I think its benefits outweigh that aspect, but the logic makes sense. I'm working on a more Tempo-focused Shoal build myself that I will hopefully test out soon. Going up on Shoal makes Bauble a lot worse, so I'm going to start by trimming one. I think cutting Bauble is even more defensible when you are actively trying to support Shoal more.
If you aren't aiming at maximizing Shoal's potential, I think that Bauble is something that you want. It can slow us down a bit, but it can also speed us up. The main draw then is the fact that we have a ~56 card deck, meaning we are more likely to draw our best cards. If you take that kind of approach, I'd just trim whatever other cards you find lackluster and add the burn/tap effects to get more reach. I think I'm going to take this sort of approach for my Tempo build, running a couple of Baubles and just trimming whatever cards I like least.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
IE Help flip delver, grow goyf, and makes traverse certainly a lot better. But People have to agree it's just not probe.
Goyf has been knocked down a peg solely on the back of fatal push. And it's NECESSARY in our deck. I think we get spread thin having to decide if we hedge against the chance we face down a push deck and go with a shoal build or use bauble to help grow goyf vs our current meta allstars in shadow and eldrazi. But it seems to me having a 5/6 goyf on the table just isn't cutting it.
It's not that I don't like the delayed draw that bauble gives. But if card advantage is what we are looking for then I am on the side of this thread that believes chart a course is just fine in this deck.I think only once or twice in the 20 games I've played with it I've had to ever discard a card. We discussed that at worse it can put two card types in the GY for goyf. And it acts as a pseudo spell snare with shoal.
So this is what I'm going to try for a while using my favorite pet cards and all
4x tarmogoyf
3x hooting mandrills
2x thermo-alchemist
1x snapcaster mage
2x tarfire
1x lightning axe
4x disrupting shoal
2x mana leak
3x stubborn denial
2x thought scour
1x vapor snag
2x take into custody
4x serum visions
2x chart a course
Ive been tempted to play with artful dodge in the place of take into custody. Again looking to push through damage more agressively Plus playing shoals to protect our creatures doing so better.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
@ON nobody said Bauble "was" Probe. But Probe is banned and Bauble is the best pound-for-pound replacement re: velocity. Overloading removal spells is a Goyf-supporting plan I endorse, as is making him huge, but your build doesn't seem to do either of those things very well.
Regarding Alchemist, thinking of it as a worst-case-scenario removal magnet won't do you any favors because the card costs 2CMC and dies to all the 1CMC removal spells. Cards must trade with answers at parity to be considered for that role, i.e. Monastery Swiftspear. Otherwise you're just opening yourself up to free tempo losses.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
About Take into custody. I thought about it too. It's actually an interesting card but I always felt it weaker than other card. So I'm interested in your test. I'd like to hear about your considerations.
Thermo-Alchemist doesn't flip delver. I'd rather play Savage Knucleblade in its slot but that's my playstyle. Again I'd like to hear the results of your test in any case.
By the way I'm going to test in the 2nd Knucks slot a Tireless tracker. Don't know if it belongs to our deck, but I'm going to discover it.
For your information I post my last updated list.
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Tarfire
2 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Spell Snare
1 Echoing Truth
4 Serum Visions
2 Chart a Course
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Mishra's Bauble
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Flashfreeze
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Firespout
Modern:
The hard part is it doesn't really matter what creature we put in this spot they all die to something. even knucks can be pushed or pathed with relative ease outside of whatever spells we have to protect anything we have on board anyway and that's what people on here are moving towards. I think the potential for stealing a game with either knucks or alchemist activations is 50/50. The only hedge knucks gets is making our stubborn denials better. We have all discussed at length that right now there just isn't anything good enough for the slot. It's solely my opinion but at least having a card that can turn our bolts into 5 to the dome, close out a stalled board, block small aggro creatures. If it's alive it's actively making our opponent dead rather than being blocked.
MikeFon: Of course alchemist doesn't flip delver. But neither does Knucks anyway?? And TOTALLY take into custody might be the wrong card, probably even 2 more vapor snags would even be better... Just trying to make something work.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Ob, if you want the reach Alchemist gives you (it sounds like you really like the card), run it. To the point of removal magnets, I think Ashton is right that you are going to want the Push magnet to cost one mana. I actually think that Narnam Renegade is a better option than Swiftspear. Swiftspear looks small here, and deathtouch is both very useful and a magnet for removal. If you are looking to be really aggressive and change up the deck accordingly, Swiftspear might work for you.
Keep us posted on how Tracker performs. It could be very good, but I haven't tried it because I fear we don't have enough lands to make it really work.
I think your list is really interesting because it looks a lot how I imagine my Chart and Shoal deck will look. However, you are still running Traverse. My opinion is more lenient than Ashton's (I think you can play Bauble and Shoal if you don't go straight to playsets), but I don't think you can support Bauble, Shoal, and Traverse. You only have 14 one mana Blue cards to pitch to Shoal. That is really low. You have 9 two mana spells, which is great, but I think you need more one CMC ones. There just isn't room for Bauble and Traverse in a deck looking to support Shoal. Not unless you start cutting Burn, lands, or threats, and I don't think we can afford much of that.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
@Mnesci: I know that 1 mana blue spell count is low. But I think that there isn't anything as strong as traverse. Blue 1 mana spells are weak. Only exceptions are visions that are already in. I'll try and report. I'm not completely sold on tracker too due to the low land count, but I just want to try.
Modern:
-EE top card
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
You don't have enough life to survive an attack from the opponent. Elspeth can make any of those creatures unlockable and lethal, so they all have to go. That means we are going to fire off the Pyroclasm. Otherwise we die. First though, we are attacking the Elspeth with Huntmaster and the Wolf. They will die to Pyroclasm, so the attack is free. I don't like attacking with Mandrills because they might see the Pyroclasm coming, and decide to trade some tokens for it. A sweeper is our only real out, so they don't have much reason not to take out Mandrills. I want it to survive because it is our only clock, and our only way to take out that Elspeth after.
Pyroclasm will take out whatever tokens don't block, and Cult Leader will die to state-based actions.
On the opponent's turn, they probably make a token to present lethal again. Play Needle naming Elspeth, and go at the opponent's life total. Hold onto the EE in case they make more tokens. You may need to use the EE early to kill the leftover token because it wins the game if left unchecked for a few turns. You can't afford to hold Mandrills back to block because we need to clock them as fast as possible. We don't want them to draw many cards.
That requires the Spell Pierce to protect our threat, them to draw kind of terribly, and us to draw some good stuff (I'm assuming they will hit at least a couple of threats/pieces of removal in five to six turns). I find it extremely unlikely that we win, but it is possible, and I think that line gives us the best chance to win.
What does everyone else think?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Safari: unless I'm mistaken. Elspeth would have just made an attacker lethal. ??
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
JW, why did you post a Counter-Cat question in this thread?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Since I look at them so often I keep both threads open in different tabs on my comp. I was just in the wrong one when I posted and didn't realize. Tho like what mnesci said this board state has all the card temur plays so I didn't bother deleting. Sorry, won't happen again. Also thanks for the input everyone.