Mikefon, how have you found Traverse and Chart together? I want to try out a Chart or two, but I'm not sure what to cut. I'm thinking the fifteenth creature and probably a cantrip. I feel like 2 Traverse, 3 Scour, 4 Visions, 3 Bauble, and Chart on top of it all will be too much air. I suppose I could go to 3 Mandrills and 2 Scour. A few people have moved to that, and I may as well give it a go. Actually, cutting threats (especially one like Mandrills that can come down early and attack well) feels wrong if I'm trying to get Chart in.
FWIW we play 2 Scour 3 Mandrills in CC. Chart is better there though since we have 8 Delvers. I am really low on YP in this format too, especially at more than one copy. Dude just eats a ton of mana and dies to everything.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Mikefon, how have you found Traverse and Chart together? I want to try out a Chart or two, but I'm not sure what to cut. I'm thinking the fifteenth creature and probably a cantrip. I feel like 2 Traverse, 3 Scour, 4 Visions, 3 Bauble, and Chart on top of it all will be too much air. I suppose I could go to 3 Mandrills and 2 Scour. A few people have moved to that, and I may as well give it a go. Actually, cutting threats (especially one like Mandrills that can come down early and attack well) feels wrong if I'm trying to get Chart in.
I'll cut a scour and a bauble from your list since chart is still a draw spell. I'm playing 4 mandrills now but I'm looking for replacing one of them with another threat less graveyard dependant. The options are a second Savage Knuckleblade (men, I'm in love with that beast!) or a Vendilion clicque.
By the way I'm surely going to try in that slot a saheeli rai just to see if it's worth keeping it in the 75 (still don't know for sure). In the few games it came up, it gain me something like 6 life (absorbing attacks and removals) dealing a couple of damage and fixing a couple of draws each match. Opponents are scared of it (thanks copycat) and don't let it down for long. And when it dies it's another card type that grows goyf. If it keeps doing like this I think I can keep it. And I still don't have used her -2 for the best. I think it can be an interesting addition.
I am getting to play on Sunday for the first time in forever. The primary answer I'm looking for is keeping bauble for helping with delerium (primarily) Or replacing them with young peezy to help open up chart and give us the ability to go wider.
Bauble is a must have for delirium/big goyf. Otherwhise I think it's better to play other deck such as countercats.
I tried young pyromancer in an early build (since I was switching from pure UR delver) and I cut them one by one down to 0. As said by Ashton it simply doesn't do enough.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I'll cut a scour and a bauble from your list since chart is still a draw spell. I'm playing 4 mandrills now but I'm looking for replacing one of them with another threat less graveyard dependant. The options are a second Savage Knuckleblade (men, I'm in love with that beast!) or a Vendilion clicque.
It's good to hear you are liking Knucks. I'm still on the fence with it since it only comes up so often. I really like what it can do, but it is a lot slower than the rest of our threats, which really punishes our threat-light hands when we need to get a creature down quickly.
I think at any moment someone is going to refer you over to the countercat thread. 3/3 one-drops are certainly aggressive but without evasion and dying to yet another removal spell, bolt, there's probably a reason it does not see as much play. You could consider playing a much more aggressive list to make use of all the 3/x creatures. Nacatl, Dryad, Delver. Also does not enable ferocious
It may not have traditional evasion, but I have found that 9/10 your opponent plays like it does. The fact that it has Deathtouch causes you opponent not to block most of the time. This is certainly true early in the game when they are at a healthy life total. Later on it is still rough to block because it eats anything, and it is a tremendous blocker if you need it. The fact that it is not blocked early in games makes it a great pairing for a turn two Chart a Course with actuve Raid trigger.
What is everyones thoughts on Gnarlwood Dryad Im in love with the card.
My problem with dryad is that you have to build around it to make it work in a decent way and you have to build around graveyard. Not a good idea imho if the meta keeps evolving towards storm. It's a different build that I personally don't like much. But it's more a matter of playstyle rather than power itself.
I do believe in general that a deathtoucher is pretty annoying for opponents though. I saw it when I played Narnam renegade.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Alright, since this thread has gotten quiet, I'd like to hear thoughts on two cards.
First, Simic Charm. When Jordan won the tournament that perhaps rejuvenated this deck, he was playing one charm main and one side. Then over time ppl played more up to a 4-of at one point. Now it doesn't see any play. Is there a reason not to play it? I've loved it as a 2-3 of, being a combat trick, burn spell, removal, and counterspell all in one. What are thoughts on this card now?
Second, a few times, Delay has been brought up. Is this a legitimate option or just a bad replacement for Mana Leak? Since we are relatively aggressive, I can see how Delay could just be counterspell in some matchups. I'd love to hear thoughts on either of these
I love Simic Charm, it does everything we want for the most part. All the modes are relevant in our deck. At one point I was running a playset and was looking to play Unsubstantiate and Blossoming Defense as 2 ofs so that I could play copies 5-8 of the card. But when I moved to playing two 2-3 Ghost Quarters in the main it maid it really tough to have Blue Green and the right mana to play something else too with consistency. So at that point I took the card our. Now I am only running 1 Ghost Quarter in he main so it might be worth testing again.
It never seems bad to have it in habd or to draw it late game for the most part, and the value of it us amazing against GBX decks because it counters Abrupt Decay which has seen more play since Fatal Push made black so strong.
Delay is my baby, I love the card. I stumbled upon it one day just looking through all the modern counter spells and thought I would test it out. It has yet to disappoint, most of the time it is strictly counterspell in our deck. I took it to GP Orlando last year and my opponents didnt know what to do against it. Decks like Tron and Titan Shift just get wrecked because they are expecting to have enough mana to replay the card or just play three extra mana which is no big deal to them. We are playing a pure tempo deck and this card replaces card advantage with time advantage which is exactly what we want. If we cast it turn two it does not come off of suspend until turn 5 which a lot of times the game is already over or decided. Also we have had 3 extra draw steps to find another answer for the suspended card if need be. Yes I know it is card disadvantage, but 9/10 you never see it come back or the spell is irrelevant when it does. Unlike Mana Leak or Remand they can't out pay it or just cast it again, they have to wait the three turns. With so many removal spells in the format are one drops and we want to seriously protect our threat on the board or stall our opponent from playing low cost creature in the late game, Delay is better than Mana Leak and Remand when Tempo is our key road to victory. It is also balanced well with Chart a Course regaining the card advantage you could potentially lose. Test the card out you wont be disappointed.
Simic Charm is great in this deck. However, it shares a slot with Vapor Snag (they do very similar things), and I think Snag is better right now. I would rather have Vapor Snag against most Aggro decks game 1 (game 2 I'm probably boarding them out since I'd rather have longer-term removal). This becomes more true the faster the Aggro deck (think of Affinity), while against slow Aggro decks (say, Naya Company), I don't mind the versatility of Simic Charm. Simic Charm is better against classic Midrange and Control, but I think I prefer Vapor Snag against Grixis Shadow. I think Simic Charm looks a bit better against Eldrazi. The extra mana isn't so bad when they have Chalice, and growing a Mandrills can be very good there. The Hexproof mode won't be that common, but I think I like the Giant Growth.
I would switch back to Simic Charm once the meta shifts back towards more interactive decks. Vapor Snag is better against the more linear ones.
I haven't tried Delay yet, but it looks very nice against Combo decks that want to go off on time. It obviously rewards aggressiveness, but doesn't require it as much as Remand does. I don't think I like it against Midrange and Control, especially when we go for a slower game plan postboard, but that depends on how you sideboard.
I'm going to give delay a shot. I'm remodeling a bit with chart a course getting some good reviews from our pilots in this thread and I finally got a chance to play yesterday and was always able to draw two. I'll post up my list later tonight when I'm not at work.
I have a REALLY crazy idea about making use of these cards bauble and chart nets us that I THINK will prove to be fantastic.
the only problem is... Sacrifices for the greater good must be made!
So here are my thoughts. The biggest change for me is dropping shoal and adding axe. We pitch to shoal So I don't think it hurts to pitch to axe. It's a GREAT trade IMO to help with our current meta. Watching Mnes' videos I've seen him desperately in need of casting Dismember on many occasions but the life loss wouldn't allow it. I think the combination of removal and the TRIAL of Delay could really be something.
I'm aware we are soft to fatal push. more so if we move away from shoal. I think a couple dispel or negate are solid out of the sideboard. We will see if Melody Is worth it's slot soon enough.
I AM slightly concerned at many cards being 2 ofs possibly diluting the deck in a way But I feel like there isn't a ton of velocity lost.
I agree that Chart is a great card and just makes pitching cards hurt a lot less.
I would LOVE to see room to add another creature or two. But I REALLY like the second tarfire. And everything else just looks like it should DEF be there.
And if I added 2 more creatures should it be midrange creatures? or one drops? what about guys like Cursecatcher Or Sage of Epityr Thinking outside of the box just a bit.
Still needing a card printed especially for this deck I think but in the mean time we will just have to keep brewing.
I love when discussion brings up new tech (or reproposes old ones). Both delay and lightning axe are interesting cards to discuss.
I surely like axe much more than dismember. But I don't know if I'm ready to cut shoals. Delay is not the same since it's online two turns later and can't address for example a turn two chalice on the play. It's better with high cmc spells though so the debate is still open.
By the way Axe doesn't exile, but it discards. That's a huge upgrade since we can grow goyf while killing a creature. And the discarded card can be snapped back. More tests are needed.
About mana base: I used to play your same list of lands, but I found that cutting an island for a Wooded Foothills increased the number of keepable starting hand.
If you want to add a creature you may try Savage Knucleblade. It does a lot of thing for one creature.
Last comment about sideboard: I tried Entrancing Melody and I found it just too slow. It's a pity because it's a card I liked a lot during spoiler season. I dont't like staticaster either but it can be useful against certain meta.
I advice everybody trying a planeswalker in side. Chandra, Torch of Defiance or Jace, Architect of Thought are the two best candidates. I'm trying chandra because the minus ability helps removing big creatures and the plus ability is either card advantage or damage helping with the burn plan. They gain you a lot of time attracting removals and attacks from opponents creatures.
I tested with Lightning Axe about a year ago and it worked ok. The problem I had with it was that it was a horrible top deck and lowered the amount of burn to the face you had access to. I think it is better than dismember but I would have it in the sideboard. There are quite a few decks that dont have creatures and it becomes a dead card too often in my opinion.
Personally my favorite PW for the deck is Sarkhan Vol. Makes our goyfs bigger than other goyfs. Gives our threats haste. Steals anglers, smashers, goyfs etc. To push in some damage. And has a win condition ultimate.
My pet card is thermal-alchemist But in all seriousness, it's an fnm card. Not a tier card.
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Personally my favorite PW for the deck is Sarkhan Vol. Makes our goyfs bigger than other goyfs. Gives our threats haste. Steals anglers, smashers, goyfs etc. To push in some damage. And has a win condition ultimate.
My experience with sarkhan.
I thought about it, tried it and unfortunately dismissed it quite soon. I felt it as a win more card. I side in PW against controls and midrange. We don't have many creatures to pump due to removals from opponent and our low creatures number. The creature you eventually steal will kill sarkhan immediately since you removed loyalty counters to activate. And in an empty board is far worse compared to Chandra that instead helps killing opponents or draws you cards with the plus ability and protect herself with the minus. The ultimate is equally strong even if slightly slower. Never managed to activate any of the ultimates by the way.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I'll cut a scour and a bauble from your list since chart is still a draw spell. I'm playing 4 mandrills now but I'm looking for replacing one of them with another threat less graveyard dependant. The options are a second Savage Knuckleblade (men, I'm in love with that beast!) or a Vendilion clicque.
By the way I'm surely going to try in that slot a saheeli rai just to see if it's worth keeping it in the 75 (still don't know for sure). In the few games it came up, it gain me something like 6 life (absorbing attacks and removals) dealing a couple of damage and fixing a couple of draws each match. Opponents are scared of it (thanks copycat) and don't let it down for long. And when it dies it's another card type that grows goyf. If it keeps doing like this I think I can keep it. And I still don't have used her -2 for the best. I think it can be an interesting addition.
Bauble is a must have for delirium/big goyf. Otherwhise I think it's better to play other deck such as countercats.
I tried young pyromancer in an early build (since I was switching from pure UR delver) and I cut them one by one down to 0. As said by Ashton it simply doesn't do enough.
Modern:
It's good to hear you are liking Knucks. I'm still on the fence with it since it only comes up so often. I really like what it can do, but it is a lot slower than the rest of our threats, which really punishes our threat-light hands when we need to get a creature down quickly.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
My problem with dryad is that you have to build around it to make it work in a decent way and you have to build around graveyard. Not a good idea imho if the meta keeps evolving towards storm. It's a different build that I personally don't like much. But it's more a matter of playstyle rather than power itself.
I do believe in general that a deathtoucher is pretty annoying for opponents though. I saw it when I played Narnam renegade.
Modern:
Here is the list im playing now
Modern Temur Delver.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://docker2.deckedbuilder.com:3001/d/336823
First, Simic Charm. When Jordan won the tournament that perhaps rejuvenated this deck, he was playing one charm main and one side. Then over time ppl played more up to a 4-of at one point. Now it doesn't see any play. Is there a reason not to play it? I've loved it as a 2-3 of, being a combat trick, burn spell, removal, and counterspell all in one. What are thoughts on this card now?
Second, a few times, Delay has been brought up. Is this a legitimate option or just a bad replacement for Mana Leak? Since we are relatively aggressive, I can see how Delay could just be counterspell in some matchups. I'd love to hear thoughts on either of these
It never seems bad to have it in habd or to draw it late game for the most part, and the value of it us amazing against GBX decks because it counters Abrupt Decay which has seen more play since Fatal Push made black so strong.
Delay is my baby, I love the card. I stumbled upon it one day just looking through all the modern counter spells and thought I would test it out. It has yet to disappoint, most of the time it is strictly counterspell in our deck. I took it to GP Orlando last year and my opponents didnt know what to do against it. Decks like Tron and Titan Shift just get wrecked because they are expecting to have enough mana to replay the card or just play three extra mana which is no big deal to them. We are playing a pure tempo deck and this card replaces card advantage with time advantage which is exactly what we want. If we cast it turn two it does not come off of suspend until turn 5 which a lot of times the game is already over or decided. Also we have had 3 extra draw steps to find another answer for the suspended card if need be. Yes I know it is card disadvantage, but 9/10 you never see it come back or the spell is irrelevant when it does. Unlike Mana Leak or Remand they can't out pay it or just cast it again, they have to wait the three turns. With so many removal spells in the format are one drops and we want to seriously protect our threat on the board or stall our opponent from playing low cost creature in the late game, Delay is better than Mana Leak and Remand when Tempo is our key road to victory. It is also balanced well with Chart a Course regaining the card advantage you could potentially lose. Test the card out you wont be disappointed.
I would switch back to Simic Charm once the meta shifts back towards more interactive decks. Vapor Snag is better against the more linear ones.
I haven't tried Delay yet, but it looks very nice against Combo decks that want to go off on time. It obviously rewards aggressiveness, but doesn't require it as much as Remand does. I don't think I like it against Midrange and Control, especially when we go for a slower game plan postboard, but that depends on how you sideboard.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
I have a REALLY crazy idea about making use of these cards bauble and chart nets us that I THINK will prove to be fantastic.
the only problem is... Sacrifices for the greater good must be made!
EDIT:
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
2 Lightning Axe
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Mana Leak
2 Thought Scour
1 Vapor Snag
2 Delay
4 Serum Visions
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Chart a Course
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Dispel
2 Pyroclasm
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Blood Moon
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Entrancing Melody
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
So here are my thoughts. The biggest change for me is dropping shoal and adding axe. We pitch to shoal So I don't think it hurts to pitch to axe. It's a GREAT trade IMO to help with our current meta. Watching Mnes' videos I've seen him desperately in need of casting Dismember on many occasions but the life loss wouldn't allow it. I think the combination of removal and the TRIAL of Delay could really be something.
I'm aware we are soft to fatal push. more so if we move away from shoal. I think a couple dispel or negate are solid out of the sideboard. We will see if Melody Is worth it's slot soon enough.
I AM slightly concerned at many cards being 2 ofs possibly diluting the deck in a way But I feel like there isn't a ton of velocity lost.
I agree that Chart is a great card and just makes pitching cards hurt a lot less.
I would LOVE to see room to add another creature or two. But I REALLY like the second tarfire. And everything else just looks like it should DEF be there.
And if I added 2 more creatures should it be midrange creatures? or one drops? what about guys like Cursecatcher Or Sage of Epityr Thinking outside of the box just a bit.
Still needing a card printed especially for this deck I think but in the mean time we will just have to keep brewing.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
I surely like axe much more than dismember. But I don't know if I'm ready to cut shoals. Delay is not the same since it's online two turns later and can't address for example a turn two chalice on the play. It's better with high cmc spells though so the debate is still open.
By the way Axe doesn't exile, but it discards. That's a huge upgrade since we can grow goyf while killing a creature. And the discarded card can be snapped back. More tests are needed.
About mana base: I used to play your same list of lands, but I found that cutting an island for a Wooded Foothills increased the number of keepable starting hand.
If you want to add a creature you may try Savage Knucleblade. It does a lot of thing for one creature.
Last comment about sideboard: I tried Entrancing Melody and I found it just too slow. It's a pity because it's a card I liked a lot during spoiler season. I dont't like staticaster either but it can be useful against certain meta.
I advice everybody trying a planeswalker in side. Chandra, Torch of Defiance or Jace, Architect of Thought are the two best candidates. I'm trying chandra because the minus ability helps removing big creatures and the plus ability is either card advantage or damage helping with the burn plan. They gain you a lot of time attracting removals and attacks from opponents creatures.
Just my 2 cents.
Edit:I post my current list for reference
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Savage Knuckleblade
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
1 Vapor Snag
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Mana Leak
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Spell Snare
2 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
2 Chart a Course
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroclasm
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Flashfreeze
Modern:
Deck: Toolbox Temur Delver.dec
Counts : 60 main
Creatures:14
1 Delver of Secrets
1 Gnarlwood Dryad
1 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Narnam Renegade
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thing in the Ice
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Bedlam Reveler
Artifacts:1
1 Mishra's Bauble
Sorceries:6
1 Faithless Looting
1 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Void Snare
1 Chart a Course
Instants:28
1 Blossoming Defense
1 Burst Lightning
1 Dispel
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Lightning Axe
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Noxious Revival
1 Opt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Tarfire
1 Thought Scour
1 Vapor Snag
1 Delay
1 Deprive
1 Echoing Truth
1 Essence Scatter
1 Into the Roil
1 Izzet Charm
1 Mana Leak
1 Manamorphose
1 Negate
1 Remand
1 Rune Snag
1 Simic Charm
1 Dismember
1 Electrolyze
Enchantments:3
1 Oath of Nissa
1 Seal of Fire
1 Spontaneous Mutation
Others:4
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Jace Beleren
1 Saheeli Rai
1 Arlinn Kord
Lands:4
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Treetop Village
Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/
My pet card is thermal-alchemist But in all seriousness, it's an fnm card. Not a tier card.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
My experience with sarkhan.
I thought about it, tried it and unfortunately dismissed it quite soon. I felt it as a win more card. I side in PW against controls and midrange. We don't have many creatures to pump due to removals from opponent and our low creatures number. The creature you eventually steal will kill sarkhan immediately since you removed loyalty counters to activate. And in an empty board is far worse compared to Chandra that instead helps killing opponents or draws you cards with the plus ability and protect herself with the minus. The ultimate is equally strong even if slightly slower. Never managed to activate any of the ultimates by the way.
Modern:
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff