8-1 at the end of day 2. I saw a bit of his one loss to a UR Delver variant w/ Lava Spikes. Burn is a bad matchup unless you oversideboard for it, so I'm not surprised he would have trouble with a more heavily burn based Delver list. Only thing that I know about his list is that he seems to be playing Cruise and not DTT, but he could have a mix.
I feel like DTT fits our strategy a little better than TC. UR Delver though wants TC as they have tons for 4-ofs and not a lot of singletons, at least compared to us.
I feel like DTT fits our strategy a little better than TC. UR Delver though wants TC as they have tons for 4-ofs and not a lot of singletons, at least compared to us.
I agree 100%. Unless you're playing Swiftspear, I think DTT is better.
Patrick Tomelitsch missed t8, but his friend Immanuel Gerschenso won the GP playing a similar (the same?) list:
4 Pyromancer and 0 Snapcaster is an interesting decision. I suppose it's a concession to Treasure Cruise since you won't always be able to keep the best cards in your yard, but if you switch to Dig Through Time that seems like less of a problem. The one Sulfur Falls in the MD might be worthwhile - I play a forest in that spot with otherwise the same manabase but it might be more trouble than it's worth. Immanuel isn't playing Blood Moon in the SB, which makes that easier. The Molten Rains didn't look that great when he drew them against Scapeshift in the finals or Through the Breach in the semis, so I'm skeptical. Not playing Blood Moon is certainly reasonable though. The commentetators (Simon Goertzen, Raphael Levy, and Martin L) said they thought Immanuel's deck needed some better cheap counter magic vs. Scapeshift and specifically mentioned Deprive, and you know I agree. I think the card is exceptionally well positioned right now because Leak is bad against Treasure Cruise the cheap spells people are playing while Remand is similar though at least it's effective against Cruise.
Other than that, I see mostly reasonable decisions. The single Thought Scour is defensible, as is the Destructive Revelry in the board. 2 Forked Bolt + 1 Electrolyze makes the deck teched out for the Pyromancer mirror. The two dragon's claw seem like a good idea, but Immanuel said in his player profile that the card was too slow. I'd like to see an Engineered Explosives because it's pretty good against Delver variants and in a lot of other spots plus it's an actual card to board in against Boggles, which is on the upswing.
The thing that surprised me most about this tournament was how many Pod lists were in the top 16 - even Sam Pardee had given up on pod. I think this has more to do with a GP being a wide open field than anything, but I could be wrong. A couple of junk lists did well as well - Ooze is great against the delve spells and Siege Rhino is just a beating if it ever resolves, plus lingering souls for the pyromancer decks. I would have expected the version of this list splashing Treasure Cruise to do better, but perhaps the splash isn't necessary if you just overload on Oozes to keep them from pulling ahead with Delver spells. I think this speaks well for Ooze in RUG but also we need to be mindful of this deck when building our SB. Hibernate from Immanuel's board is certainly something, but I don't know if it's high impact enough (with no testing mind you).
Interesting to see that we're only in green for seven cards. LOL. Makes me wonder if the green splash is worth it. Particularly if one of your mainstays is Tarmogoyf, who gets worse alongside Treasure Cruise.
There is a part of me recently that has been considering dropping green altogether. We have seen UR Delver go from a Tier 2 deck to a Tier 1 deck overnight with the addition of TC.
Now, if TC gets banned (seems likely) and we're left only with DTT, then I can see more of a reason for green.
I think Goyf is worth it as long as you're not on the Monastery Swiftspear plan, even if you're running Cruise over DTT. He's just so much more resilient than other threats, and there is a ton of hate for Pyromancer running around right now, like Forked Bolt, Electrolyze, Electrickery, Anger of the Gods, Pyroclasm, etc. Postboard you can configure your deck so that these cards are actively bad against you (take out Delver, bring in bigger threats) which is a huge plus - at least in the matchups where you want to do that. In game 2 of the final match, RUG Delver vs Scapeshift, the fact that it was a Goyf in particular in play was huge because it was bolt / izzet charm proof and in a crucial turn he was able to attack into an Obstinator Baloth. There is some hate for Goyf running around because the hate is also good against the Delve cards, but not to the same extent since the hate is so much less generally playable.
I would play more green cards though - I still like the 4 Delver 4 Goyf 4 Snap 2 Ooze creature package. But 2 Ooze vs. 2 Pyromancer is close.
Hmm. I guess you also get a lot more sideboard options too, e.g. Huntmaster and Thrun, if you want them. Plus it also allows us to play Engineered Explosives with more latitude, a thing I greatly appreciate.
Ooze is godawful in this deck. Having more than one green mana in play is a luxury, and casting him with the ability to grow him past a bolt is a dream right now. Also, theres no way a deck with 19 lands is keeping any deck off its delve spells. I would be to happy if my opponent playing 19 lands was spending all of his mana doing....nothing.
Ooze is godawful in this deck. Having more than one green mana in play is a luxury, and casting him with the ability to grow him past a bolt is a dream right now. Also, theres no way a deck with 19 lands is keeping any deck off its delve spells. I would be to happy if my opponent playing 19 lands was spending all of his mana doing....nothing.
I understand the issues you're pointing out, but suffice to say that the mana hasn't been that much of an issue for me. I'm also not trying to keep my opponents completely off their delve spells - just make theirs cost more than mine.
Ooze is godawful in this deck. Having more than one green mana in play is a luxury, and casting him with the ability to grow him past a bolt is a dream right now. Also, theres no way a deck with 19 lands is keeping any deck off its delve spells. I would be to happy if my opponent playing 19 lands was spending all of his mana doing....nothing.
I understand the issues you're pointing out, but suffice to say that the mana hasn't been that much of an issue for me. I'm also not trying to keep my opponents completely off their delve spells - just make theirs cost more than mine.
This isn't bad. Ooze is good in this deck but just in the Midrange-y version. That version certainly wants Dig Through Time. I think we can split the deck into Dig variants (which should more closely resemble classical lists with Shackles) and Cruise lists (which bear more similarity to UR Delver and run Young Pyromancer). Wizards must understand that Cruise is safe by now, having seen the results of GP Madrid (I mean, right?!), but I'll wait until the next banlist announcement to right a novel about this in the Primer.
A proposed list, off the top of my head (untested):
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Interesting to see that we're only in green for seven cards. LOL. Makes me wonder if the green splash is worth it. Particularly if one of your mainstays is Tarmogoyf, who gets worse alongside Treasure Cruise.
There is a part of me recently that has been considering dropping green altogether. We have seen UR Delver go from a Tier 2 deck to a Tier 1 deck overnight with the addition of TC.
Now, if TC gets banned (seems likely) and we're left only with DTT, then I can see more of a reason for green.
And also if you look at yesterday's top 8, the last two matches were tesiments to goyfs unboltability. People were trying to kill pyromancers, delvers and swiftspears but not goyfs and they were able to carry the rug delver deck to a win at the gp. Just a slight difference from the UR list but one extremely significant as now cards that are good against UR delver are less so against RUG Delver
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Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Ooze is godawful in this deck. Having more than one green mana in play is a luxury, and casting him with the ability to grow him past a bolt is a dream right now. Also, theres no way a deck with 19 lands is keeping any deck off its delve spells. I would be to happy if my opponent playing 19 lands was spending all of his mana doing....nothing.
I understand the issues you're pointing out, but suffice to say that the mana hasn't been that much of an issue for me. I'm also not trying to keep my opponents completely off their delve spells - just make theirs cost more than mine.
This isn't bad. Ooze is good in this deck but just in the Midrange-y version. That version certainly wants Dig Through Time. I think we can split the deck into Dig variants (which should more closely resemble classical lists with Shackles) and Cruise lists (which bear more similarity to UR Delver and run Young Pyromancer). Wizards must understand that Cruise is safe by now, having seen the results of GP Madrid (I mean, right?!), but I'll wait until the next banlist announcement to right a novel about this in the Primer.
A proposed list, off the top of my head (untested):
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Nope, not in the Midrange version. Maybe a Flame Slash though.
Yeah, Remand seems pretty poorly positioned against the Delver lists and everyone else casting cheap cantrips to fill their graveyard, though remanding Siege Rhino and Cruise are both great plays. I like to keep 1 remand in the 60 partially because of the 2-1s it generates in counter wars, and there are certainly plenty of other blue decks running around right now. But I'm not very certain about this.
I'm skeptical of the 2nd spell pierce though - at least in this sort of more midrangey build. Are there enough targets out there?
I think the direction you're taking the deck wants to cut Delver. You're down to 24 instants/sorceries and Shackles is really pulling the deck in a different direction. There's probably room for a RUG midrange list though -- you just have to be willing to sacrifice some % in the combo matchups for % elsewhere. You could even play Thirst for Knowledge without too much work which, incidentally, fuels DTT pretty nicely. I plan on trying something similar to this.
And also if you look at yesterday's top 8, the last two matches were tesiments to goyfs unboltability. People were trying to kill pyromancers, delvers and swiftspears but not goyfs and they were able to carry the rug delver deck to a win at the gp. Just a slight difference from the UR list but one extremely significant as now cards that are good against UR delver are less so against RUG Delver
I also like Goyf in the pseudo-mirror. They basically have to 2-1 themselves to deal with it, and in the mean time it slows down Pyromancer and Swiftspear. You do still need a way to keep Pyromancer from getting out of control and be careful not to be blown out by Vapor Snag. The only Swiftspear Delver list I've had trouble with was running 4 Snag 4 Unsummon, but I don't think that's something we can expect to play against. The Swiftspear lists are even cutting Snapcasters, so it's not like they can keep Snagging you forever.
Take a look at the deck that won GP Turin in 2012. Up until very recently, RUG Delver lists exclusively featured Shackles and relied on a backup Midrange plan. It's definitely a strong strategy, and I think it's still viable with DTT. Leaking Siege Rhino is just better than Remanding it in this type of list, but I also like at least one Remand for Delve/counter wars. Probably over the second Pierce.
The strength of these hybrid lists is the ability to start the game on a Tempo plan (i.e. Delver, go; or Serum, Goyf, go) and start dropping bombs with all the mana you eventually get, even on just 21 lands (Planeswalkers, Moon, Shackles, Batterskull, etc.). Pre-Pyromancer, RUG Delver was really missing that extra threat to commit entirely to a Tempo plan; now we can, but I'm sure the Midrange plan is still good (and it gains a tremendous boost with DTT). It also has the edge against other Delver strategies in the format.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I agree that we're in this hybrid midrange/tempo territory, and I think that's one of the strengths of the deck. My reservation with Shackles and Delver in the same list is that Shackles is only good in the midrange plan and Delver is only good in the tempo plan. The ideal situation would be if every card we played was good in both plans (and in the spots where you want both plans), but I don't think we can get there. So I tend to lean towards making sure every card in the deck is good in one of the plans, then making sure that most of the cards are still good in the other plan. If you take this logic to the extreme, then Delver and Shackles are mutually exclusive. I don't think it's a knockdown argument or anything though, just one consideration to have in mind.
I'll take a look at the list when I get a chance, but it might be a bit. I wouldn't be unhappy if someone posted it though
To some points on the list,as stated dragons claw was just too slow and will be cut for sure. Hibernation was insane in the sb,its good against zoo,pod and boggles,dont cut it! Tarmogoyf is the best creature and without it you shouldnt play this deck. You really need it to win the pseudo-"ur delver" mirror,race combodecks like scapeshift/twin and against affinity its also much better than swiftspear. Molten rain maybe seems to slow,but it isnt,it can win you the game against many decks,not only scapeshift.
We are testing already for gp milano as patrick tomelitsch and bernhard lehner have to top8 and we have some slight changes to the sb and main but i cant post them as we want to have a surpise factor at the gp.
Ps.: @spooly tomelitsch,lehner and i played same 75 at the gp
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I agree 100%. Unless you're playing Swiftspear, I think DTT is better.
Patrick Tomelitsch missed t8, but his friend Immanuel Gerschenso won the GP playing a similar (the same?) list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
Sorcery (15)
2 Forked Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Serum Visions
Instant (14)
1 Electrolyze
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Hibernation
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Electrickery
3 Molten Rain
4 Pyromancer and 0 Snapcaster is an interesting decision. I suppose it's a concession to Treasure Cruise since you won't always be able to keep the best cards in your yard, but if you switch to Dig Through Time that seems like less of a problem. The one Sulfur Falls in the MD might be worthwhile - I play a forest in that spot with otherwise the same manabase but it might be more trouble than it's worth. Immanuel isn't playing Blood Moon in the SB, which makes that easier. The Molten Rains didn't look that great when he drew them against Scapeshift in the finals or Through the Breach in the semis, so I'm skeptical. Not playing Blood Moon is certainly reasonable though. The commentetators (Simon Goertzen, Raphael Levy, and Martin L) said they thought Immanuel's deck needed some better cheap counter magic vs. Scapeshift and specifically mentioned Deprive, and you know I agree. I think the card is exceptionally well positioned right now because Leak is bad against Treasure Cruise the cheap spells people are playing while Remand is similar though at least it's effective against Cruise.
Other than that, I see mostly reasonable decisions. The single Thought Scour is defensible, as is the Destructive Revelry in the board. 2 Forked Bolt + 1 Electrolyze makes the deck teched out for the Pyromancer mirror. The two dragon's claw seem like a good idea, but Immanuel said in his player profile that the card was too slow. I'd like to see an Engineered Explosives because it's pretty good against Delver variants and in a lot of other spots plus it's an actual card to board in against Boggles, which is on the upswing.
The thing that surprised me most about this tournament was how many Pod lists were in the top 16 - even Sam Pardee had given up on pod. I think this has more to do with a GP being a wide open field than anything, but I could be wrong. A couple of junk lists did well as well - Ooze is great against the delve spells and Siege Rhino is just a beating if it ever resolves, plus lingering souls for the pyromancer decks. I would have expected the version of this list splashing Treasure Cruise to do better, but perhaps the splash isn't necessary if you just overload on Oozes to keep them from pulling ahead with Delver spells. I think this speaks well for Ooze in RUG but also we need to be mindful of this deck when building our SB. Hibernate from Immanuel's board is certainly something, but I don't know if it's high impact enough (with no testing mind you).
For reference: Top 8 Decks and Top 16 Decks
There is a part of me recently that has been considering dropping green altogether. We have seen UR Delver go from a Tier 2 deck to a Tier 1 deck overnight with the addition of TC.
Now, if TC gets banned (seems likely) and we're left only with DTT, then I can see more of a reason for green.
I would play more green cards though - I still like the 4 Delver 4 Goyf 4 Snap 2 Ooze creature package. But 2 Ooze vs. 2 Pyromancer is close.
I understand the issues you're pointing out, but suffice to say that the mana hasn't been that much of an issue for me. I'm also not trying to keep my opponents completely off their delve spells - just make theirs cost more than mine.
A proposed list, off the top of my head (untested):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
OP (2)
2 Vedalken Shackles
Sp (24)
4 Serum Visions
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Leak
2 Deprive
4 Dig Through Time
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
6 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Blood Moon
1 Batterskull
1 Flame Slash
2 Pyroclasm
2 Feed the Clan
1 Combust
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
And also if you look at yesterday's top 8, the last two matches were tesiments to goyfs unboltability. People were trying to kill pyromancers, delvers and swiftspears but not goyfs and they were able to carry the rug delver deck to a win at the gp. Just a slight difference from the UR list but one extremely significant as now cards that are good against UR delver are less so against RUG Delver
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Needs more Remand and Vapor Snag.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Yeah, Remand seems pretty poorly positioned against the Delver lists and everyone else casting cheap cantrips to fill their graveyard, though remanding Siege Rhino and Cruise are both great plays. I like to keep 1 remand in the 60 partially because of the 2-1s it generates in counter wars, and there are certainly plenty of other blue decks running around right now. But I'm not very certain about this.
I'm skeptical of the 2nd spell pierce though - at least in this sort of more midrangey build. Are there enough targets out there?
I think the direction you're taking the deck wants to cut Delver. You're down to 24 instants/sorceries and Shackles is really pulling the deck in a different direction. There's probably room for a RUG midrange list though -- you just have to be willing to sacrifice some % in the combo matchups for % elsewhere. You could even play Thirst for Knowledge without too much work which, incidentally, fuels DTT pretty nicely. I plan on trying something similar to this.
I also like Goyf in the pseudo-mirror. They basically have to 2-1 themselves to deal with it, and in the mean time it slows down Pyromancer and Swiftspear. You do still need a way to keep Pyromancer from getting out of control and be careful not to be blown out by Vapor Snag. The only Swiftspear Delver list I've had trouble with was running 4 Snag 4 Unsummon, but I don't think that's something we can expect to play against. The Swiftspear lists are even cutting Snapcasters, so it's not like they can keep Snagging you forever.
The strength of these hybrid lists is the ability to start the game on a Tempo plan (i.e. Delver, go; or Serum, Goyf, go) and start dropping bombs with all the mana you eventually get, even on just 21 lands (Planeswalkers, Moon, Shackles, Batterskull, etc.). Pre-Pyromancer, RUG Delver was really missing that extra threat to commit entirely to a Tempo plan; now we can, but I'm sure the Midrange plan is still good (and it gains a tremendous boost with DTT). It also has the edge against other Delver strategies in the format.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I'll take a look at the list when I get a chance, but it might be a bit. I wouldn't be unhappy if someone posted it though
To some points on the list,as stated dragons claw was just too slow and will be cut for sure. Hibernation was insane in the sb,its good against zoo,pod and boggles,dont cut it! Tarmogoyf is the best creature and without it you shouldnt play this deck. You really need it to win the pseudo-"ur delver" mirror,race combodecks like scapeshift/twin and against affinity its also much better than swiftspear. Molten rain maybe seems to slow,but it isnt,it can win you the game against many decks,not only scapeshift.
We are testing already for gp milano as patrick tomelitsch and bernhard lehner have to top8 and we have some slight changes to the sb and main but i cant post them as we want to have a surpise factor at the gp.
Ps.: @spooly tomelitsch,lehner and i played same 75 at the gp