Glad you guys like the deck. I'm having a blast with it too.
Been playing events whenever they come up and a lot online and am having success. Thoughts so far:
- We need to make the Tron matchup better. I'm now running 2x Disdainful Stroke in the side.
- Cutting Charm for the third Snag again. It's almost always a Snag.
- Thought about trying 4x Rune Snag over the Remands. This deck really wants to trade one for one and then pull ahead with Reveler, so a hard counterspell would be ideal in this slot. It's very unfortunate that we don't have any good ones in Modern. Snag at least maintains relevance later in the game, unlike a Leak. BUT, it doesn't work with Snapcaster Mage. So I'm not sure what to do yet. My next step is to test a Leak/Remand split like Riku has.
- The second Grudge is too much. Affinity is sooooooo easy already. Still like double State for RiP.
- Added Disdainful Stroke (explained above).
- Keeping 1x Dispel, which is really good in the matchups we want it for
- Added a Needle over Vendilion Clique. Very cheap and ruins decks leaning on stuff like Nahiri. I think this card is way underplayed in Modern actually. Clique never impressed me since I frequently wanted it for matchups I was bringing in triple Moon for, and I'd rather Traverse for threats than for a second Island in those matchups. If it didn't cost double blue it would be an easy include though.
Edit: See Beyond is not reasonable. If you have two Bedlams, just cut your losses and discard one. That's the reason we don't play four, but Bedlam is too good to play less than three of.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
One thing I've noticed is how innocent we look using Traverse the Ulvenwald to get basics turn 2 or 3 for Blood Moon. People don't play around it. Also I tried 2 Mana Leak and 2 Remand for a bit. I liked 4 Remand better. I liked getting a card in the grave for Bedlam Reveler and the cycle helped me make land drops. Mana Leak ended up stranded in my hand way to much.
I played against another deck with revelers and I vapor snagged his reveler back to his hand in response to the etb ability. It was a blowout, just something to watch out for when playing against decks with bounce effects.
I get that he had to discard his reveler but didn't he still get to draw 3 cards plus take one from your hand for RR?
Also should we board in disdainful stroke for the Reveler mirror? Against UR they can play around leak by the time they cast it. They can probably even play it after a remand the same turn. Obviously if they don't draw the Reveler stroke is completely dead, but we can't let it resolve. The only other thing I can think of is essence scatter
One thing I've noticed is how innocent we look using Traverse the Ulvenwald to get basics turn 2 or 3 for Blood Moon. People don't play around it. Also I tried 2 Mana Leak and 2 Remand for a bit. I liked 4 Remand better. I liked getting a card in the grave for Bedlam Reveler and the cycle helped me make land drops. Mana Leak ended up stranded in my hand way to much.
I tried Leaks again and have to agree. They die too often in this deck vs. interactive opponents. But they do help against linear strategies, so it depends what we want to focus down. It should be noted that our interactive matchups are already very good.
I'm back to Remand now, but only playing 3. I cut the fourth for a Wooded Foothills, which became a Mishra's Bauble and may become a land again. Traversing for basics can be good, but I'd rather draw my lands naturally most of the time and Traverse for threats when I can. Most of the mulligans I take with this deck have to do with no- or one-landers featuring Mountain, Stomping Ground, Forest, or Cinder Glade. Usually I like 14 turn-one blue sources in this kind of deck, so I'm looking to add one.
I played against another deck with revelers and I vapor snagged his reveler back to his hand in response to the etb ability. It was a blowout, just something to watch out for when playing against decks with bounce effects.
I get that he had to discard his reveler but didn't he still get to draw 3 cards plus take one from your hand for RR?
Also should we board in disdainful stroke for the Reveler mirror? Against UR they can play around leak by the time they cast it. They can probably even play it after a remand the same turn. Obviously if they don't draw the Reveler stroke is completely dead, but we can't let it resolve. The only other thing I can think of is essence scatter
Obviously Reveler still gains the caster a lot of advantage, but that small window to hard-answer the 3/4 prowess body for U is still important to remember. I would trade Snag for a 3/4 any day.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Obviously Reveler still gains the caster a lot of advantage, but that small window to hard-answer the 3/4 prowess body for U is still important to remember. I would trade Snag for a 3/4 any day.
I was just saying that I wouldn't call the play a "blowout" unless I was missing some interaction, which I wasn't.
Obviously Reveler still gains the caster a lot of advantage, but that small window to hard-answer the 3/4 prowess body for U is still important to remember. I would trade Snag for a 3/4 any day.
I was just saying that I wouldn't call the play a "blowout" unless I was missing some interaction, which I wasn't.
I do bring in Stroke for the mirror.
Good. I'm really anxious to test the card.
In this game he had 3 cards in hand after playing reveler so 4 after bouncing reveler.
I can not wrap my head around that list with no Shoal and no Stubborn Denial. Those two cards feel like key cards in the deck, and the main reasons to play the archetype. Of course, I didn't recently place 12th at an SCG Classic, so, you know...
I guess he wanted to go a little bigger with more Snaps and an Electrolyze instead of going all in on the tempo plan?
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
I can not wrap my head around that list with no Shoal and no Stubborn Denial. Those two cards feel like key cards in the deck, and the main reasons to play the archetype. Of course, I didn't recently place 12th at an SCG Classic, so, you know...
I guess he wanted to go a little bigger with more Snaps and an Electrolyze instead of going all in on the tempo plan?
I can understand not playing Disrupting Shoal in the deck, but I think this deck needs Stubborn Denial for many match-ups... interesting to see the deck do well without either.
Disrupting Shoal is important when early interaction is more important than card advantage. Sure, it puts you down a card, but it gets you ahead on tempo, by stopping key plays by opponents without using your precious mana for that turn. It's also big when you're on the draw, since it gives you the opportunity to shut off your opponent's initial turn. Against decks like Suicide Zoo, Bogles and Infect, it's essentially a removal spell for their most important creatures too. It's also not a dead draw against most decks if the game runs long.
It's definitely very awkward playing it when you first start testing it, but after playing with it long enough, a lot of people swear by it.
I've played 3 Friendly Leagues going 3-2, 3-2, 4-1. I lost twice to dredge, no contest. My other losses where to me drawing to many revelers or not enough land early game. I might have been able to win 1-2 more games if I played tighter. Blood Moon from the side has been house. It has won me so many matches. I'm thinking of moving 1 reveler to the side. Against aggro (which is over half the field online) reveler is dead until you stabilize and have enough resources to cast him, which is turn 4 at the earliest. I have also been threat light at times until I get the delirium engine going so I'm going to try this.
I'm impressed with how well-synced the other players here are with my own developments. I've also moved one Reveler to the side, but to run a second Bauble, and cut the 3rd Remand to make room for one Wooded Foothills, an 18th land.
So, my changes since the article:
-1 Reveler
-2 Remand
+2 Bauble
+1 Foothills
Rest is the same. I ran a Bauble over Reveler #3 in an event on Monday, and it was so good at helping with delirium that I bumped the numbers up to two. Remand isn't a great counterspell for us, but it's still better than Leak, Snare, Denial, Pierce. Really the only one I like in this deck is Shoal---wish we could play more than four! (Or, you know, had Memory Lapse!) We still need a couple heavier-duty counterspells, and I think Remand is still the best option for us on that front, at least pre-board (Negate, Dispel, and Stroke are better after siding).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Any thoughts on beast within in the SB? Seems pretty good against tron and just basically anything that causes problems, easier, cheaper, quicker than a lot of other options and can obviously be recast with snap. I also hate the modern counter spell selection, so damn restricted and often useless... After I quit for many years and found out they stopped reprinting plain old counterspell I couldn't believe it, that was always the lightning bolt of blue.
Any thoughts on beast within in the SB? Seems pretty good against tron and just basically anything that causes problems, easier, cheaper, quicker than a lot of other options and can obviously be recast with snap. I also hate the modern counter spell selection, so damn restricted and often useless... After I quit for many years and found out they stopped reprinting plain old counterspell I couldn't believe it, that was always the lightning bolt of blue.
Beast is way too expensive in this deck, and we don't love giving opponents a 3/3. It also doesn't answer threats like Wurmcoil Engine. Reality Shift or even Imprisoned in the Moon seems better already, but I wouldn't play either of those. Probably superior to rely on Vapor Snag to deal with annoying creatures and maybe branch out into stuff like Pithing Needle if Negate/Stroke don't cut it from the side.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Remand isn't a great counterspell for us, but it's still better than Leak, Snare, Denial, Pierce. Really the only one I like in this deck is Shoal---wish we could play more than four! (Or, you know, had Memory Lapse!) We still need a couple heavier-duty counterspells, and I think Remand is still the best option for us on that front, at least pre-board (Negate, Dispel, and Stroke are better after siding).
Have you considered Delay? It's not too different from Memory Lapse in many match-ups.
^^ Imprisoned in the moon is actually a very interesting card, but only playable in EDH/Standard I think. Do we just rely on Blood Moon for land hate vs tron then? spreading seas maybe?
^Delay seems pretty good actually, I forgot that card existed.
^^ Imprisoned in the moon is actually a very interesting card, but only playable in EDH/Standard I think. Do we just rely on Blood Moon for land hate vs tron then? spreading seas maybe?
^Delay seems pretty good actually, I forgot that card existed.
I'm not suggesting IitM, just saying it's already an improvement over Beast. But upon thinking about it, post-board, I do like how flexible it is. Can turn basics into colorless lands after a Moon comes down, and also removes creatures. That kind of flexibility is very good with Reveler, since we want to go hellbent with him and not have cards left over in hand. Conditional spells can get stranded.
Moon + counterspells has been enough for me vs. Tron, but I might need something more with only 2 Remand main. Seas is also a great card and an option for us should we decide not to include counterspells. Delay seems terrible though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
How bad of an option would Vexing Devil be for either the Bedlam/Traverse version or the Mandrills version of this deck? Worse case scenario would be 4 to their face and a creature in the yard to help enable early delirium vs. non-interactive decks. Maybe the deck isn't aggressive enough to make the 4 damage part useful.
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4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bedlam Reveler
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Tarfire
2 Vapor Snag
1 Simic Charm
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Lands (17)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Cinder Glade
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Natural State
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Roast
2 Dispel
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Feed the Clan
Been playing events whenever they come up and a lot online and am having success. Thoughts so far:
- We need to make the Tron matchup better. I'm now running 2x Disdainful Stroke in the side.
- Cutting Charm for the third Snag again. It's almost always a Snag.
- Thought about trying 4x Rune Snag over the Remands. This deck really wants to trade one for one and then pull ahead with Reveler, so a hard counterspell would be ideal in this slot. It's very unfortunate that we don't have any good ones in Modern. Snag at least maintains relevance later in the game, unlike a Leak. BUT, it doesn't work with Snapcaster Mage. So I'm not sure what to do yet. My next step is to test a Leak/Remand split like Riku has.
So, changes to the deck:
-1 Simic Charm
-2 Remand
+1 Vapor Snag
+2 Mana Leak
And some notes on the sideboard:
- The second Grudge is too much. Affinity is sooooooo easy already. Still like double State for RiP.
- Added Disdainful Stroke (explained above).
- Keeping 1x Dispel, which is really good in the matchups we want it for
- Added a Needle over Vendilion Clique. Very cheap and ruins decks leaning on stuff like Nahiri. I think this card is way underplayed in Modern actually. Clique never impressed me since I frequently wanted it for matchups I was bringing in triple Moon for, and I'd rather Traverse for threats than for a second Island in those matchups. If it didn't cost double blue it would be an easy include though.
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
2 Natural State
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Roast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Feed the Clan
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105834
I get that he had to discard his reveler but didn't he still get to draw 3 cards plus take one from your hand for RR?
Also should we board in disdainful stroke for the Reveler mirror? Against UR they can play around leak by the time they cast it. They can probably even play it after a remand the same turn. Obviously if they don't draw the Reveler stroke is completely dead, but we can't let it resolve. The only other thing I can think of is essence scatter
I'm back to Remand now, but only playing 3. I cut the fourth for a Wooded Foothills, which became a Mishra's Bauble and may become a land again. Traversing for basics can be good, but I'd rather draw my lands naturally most of the time and Traverse for threats when I can. Most of the mulligans I take with this deck have to do with no- or one-landers featuring Mountain, Stomping Ground, Forest, or Cinder Glade. Usually I like 14 turn-one blue sources in this kind of deck, so I'm looking to add one. Obviously Reveler still gains the caster a lot of advantage, but that small window to hard-answer the 3/4 prowess body for U is still important to remember. I would trade Snag for a 3/4 any day.
I do bring in Stroke for the mirror.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I was just saying that I wouldn't call the play a "blowout" unless I was missing some interaction, which I wasn't.
Good. I'm really anxious to test the card.
In this game he had 3 cards in hand after playing reveler so 4 after bouncing reveler.
I guess he wanted to go a little bigger with more Snaps and an Electrolyze instead of going all in on the tempo plan?
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I can understand not playing Disrupting Shoal in the deck, but I think this deck needs Stubborn Denial for many match-ups... interesting to see the deck do well without either.
It's definitely very awkward playing it when you first start testing it, but after playing with it long enough, a lot of people swear by it.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bedlam Reveler
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (17)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Tarfire
3 Vapor Snag
3 Remand
Sorceries (13)
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mishra's Bauble
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Cinder Glade
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Dispel
1 Roast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Natural State
I've played 3 Friendly Leagues going 3-2, 3-2, 4-1. I lost twice to dredge, no contest. My other losses where to me drawing to many revelers or not enough land early game. I might have been able to win 1-2 more games if I played tighter. Blood Moon from the side has been house. It has won me so many matches. I'm thinking of moving 1 reveler to the side. Against aggro (which is over half the field online) reveler is dead until you stabilize and have enough resources to cast him, which is turn 4 at the earliest. I have also been threat light at times until I get the delirium engine going so I'm going to try this.
MD:
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Wooded Foothills
-1 Bedlam Reveler
-1 Mishra's Bauble (I like the card I just don't know what else to cut)
SB:
+1 Bedlam Reveler
-1 Surgical Extraction
So, my changes since the article:
-1 Reveler
-2 Remand
+2 Bauble
+1 Foothills
Rest is the same. I ran a Bauble over Reveler #3 in an event on Monday, and it was so good at helping with delirium that I bumped the numbers up to two. Remand isn't a great counterspell for us, but it's still better than Leak, Snare, Denial, Pierce. Really the only one I like in this deck is Shoal---wish we could play more than four! (Or, you know, had Memory Lapse!) We still need a couple heavier-duty counterspells, and I think Remand is still the best option for us on that front, at least pre-board (Negate, Dispel, and Stroke are better after siding).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Have you considered Delay? It's not too different from Memory Lapse in many match-ups.
^Delay seems pretty good actually, I forgot that card existed.
Moon + counterspells has been enough for me vs. Tron, but I might need something more with only 2 Remand main. Seas is also a great card and an option for us should we decide not to include counterspells. Delay seems terrible though.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I'm relatively new to this deck. Why does Delay seem so terrible? Has anybody tested it?