I would probably cut a snare, 1-2 burst lightnings and 1 Stormbreath, for 2 spreading seas and 2 shackles. Decks like this is why we need mono colour fetches at some point for budget concerns.
Shackles seems pretty mediocre. What is it good against?
I would never ever cut the cantrips in a deck like this, having a high density of cnatrips not only streamlines your blood moon game plan, but it also allows you to play a diverse range of answers and threats while at the same time playing nice with keranos and snapcaster mage.
My problem is that the cantrips are usually not good enough. I usually would prefer to do something that affects my opponent. I think that I am going to replace them with Condescend when I get some more of them.
Any reason for no remands? I find them impressive against other blue decks and they play nice under blood moon.
Remand is a really bad card in Control decks. With no way of capitalizing on them being delayed a turn, it isn't vety good. And in the late game your opponent can just recast anything that you counter with it. You want permanent answers, not minor tempo gains.
Shackles are good against any deck with creatures I don't understand how you could think they're mediocre. They're an incredible source of card advantage.
This deck isn't like UWR where we operate at instant speed only, are you using all your mana ever turn? If not, serum visions is a good use of your. Remand as well works because we operate on this weird axis of card advantage where anything they do before we land blood moon is probably sticking (thinking about goyf) being able to remand into Moon is pretty phenomenal, and under the moon remand puts away decks quickly. Finally against other blue decks remand is a source of card advantage.
Don't run into this deck thinking its a blue control deck, its a blood moon deck, we tap out, we're proactive. Seas, serum visions and shackles all fit into this plan well. I'm not even sure if this deck could function well without fetches, I guess without cryptic and shackles it isn't terribly neccessary but I feel this more than most decks actually uses fetches for its game plan.
I would probably cut a snare, 1-2 burst lightnings and 1 Stormbreath, for 2 spreading seas and 2 shackles. Decks like this is why we need mono colour fetches at some point for budget concerns.
Shackles seems pretty mediocre. What is it good against?
I would never ever cut the cantrips in a deck like this, having a high density of cnatrips not only streamlines your blood moon game plan, but it also allows you to play a diverse range of answers and threats while at the same time playing nice with keranos and snapcaster mage.
My problem is that the cantrips are usually not good enough. I usually would prefer to do something that affects my opponent. I think that I am going to replace them with Condescend when I get some more of them.
Any reason for no remands? I find them impressive against other blue decks and they play nice under blood moon.
Remand is a really bad card in Control decks. With no way of capitalizing on them being delayed a turn, it isn't vety good. And in the late game your opponent can just recast anything that you counter with it. You want permanent answers, not minor tempo gains.
Shackles are good against any deck with creatures I don't understand how you could think they're mediocre. They're an incredible source of card advantage.
They are slow, mana intentsive, incredibly vulnerable to Abrupt Decay/Qasali Pridemage/Harmonic Sliver, and weak on large creatures. They are basically useless against Pod, BGx, WUR Control, Affinity, Bogles, and Storm because of this. That is too many top tier decks that are unaffected by it to be a reliable include maindeck.
This deck isn't like UWR where we operate at instant speed only, are you using all your mana ever turn? If not, serum visions is a good use of your. Remand as well works because we operate on this weird axis of card advantage where anything they do before we land blood moon is probably sticking (thinking about goyf) being able to remand into Moon is pretty phenomenal, and under the moon remand puts away decks quickly. Finally against other blue decks remand is a source of card advantage.
I can see Serum Visions being good and I am still working on that. However, I see no potential in Remand. You will not always get a turn 3 Blood Moon, you can't count on Blood Moon all of the time because it is so bad against some decks like Twin, Storm, and Affinity, and it only delays the opponent by a turn. When you can run permanent answers like Condescend and Mana Leak instead, a cantrip is not good enough to justify it always being a soft counter.
Don't run into this deck thinking its a blue control deck, its a blood moon deck, we tap out, we're proactive. Seas, serum visions and shackles all fit into this plan well. I'm not even sure if this deck could function well without fetches, I guess without cryptic and shackles it isn't terribly neccessary but I feel this more than most decks actually uses fetches for its game plan.
That is the thinking from 4 months ago at the Pro Tour. However, what no one seems to understand is that that was a meta deck. That style of deck can be good but it isn't now. Blood Moon is a well-respected card in Modern. People often know to fetch basics now, and red decks like UR Twin and Storm are completely unaffected by it. This is also true for Spreading Seas. Blue Moon hasn't been very successful lately, and that is because people are sticking to the 100% Blood Moon plan. So I think that if we want to make Blue Moon good, instead of just trying the same thing over and over without success, we need to look at WUR Control's gameplan.Now obviously this could be seen as just trying to make an inferior copy of WUR Control, but we have 4 major advantages over it.
1. A stable enough manabase to run Blood Moon
2. A stable enough manabase to easily cast Anger of the Gods after sideboarding
3. Win-cons that don't die to Tectonic Edge
4. Needing less lands, allowing Blue Moon to run more counterspells
Unfortunately, we also lose some cards. We can't use Lightning Helix, Sphinx's Revelation, Celestial Colonnade, and Path to Exile. Helix is easily replaced by Burst Lightning, which is stronger against many decks anyways. Revelation is easily replaced by Jace, Architect of Thought, who comes down much earlier than Revelation and can provide a large amount of card advantage for only 4 mana. Colonnade is replaced with cards like Keranos, God of Storms, Batterskull, and Stormbreath Dragon, which are much harder to kill in Modern than Colonnade. Path is hard to replace, but we need to be able to fit in Blood Moon anyways. If I was making a non-budget version of Blue Moon, it would probably be similar to this (though it would need some tuning and I would love to be able to fit in Tectonic Edges and more Condescends)
They are slow, mana intentsive, incredibly vulnerable to Abrupt Decay/Qasali Pridemage/Harmonic Sliver, and weak on large creatures. They are basically useless against Pod, BGx, WUR Control, Affinity, Bogles, and Storm because of this. That is too many top tier decks that are unaffected by it to be a reliable include maindeck.
I can see Serum Visions being good and I am still working on that. However, I see no potential in Remand. You will not always get a turn 3 Blood Moon, you can't count on Blood Moon all of the time because it is so bad against some decks like Twin, Storm, and Affinity, and it only delays the opponent by a turn. When you can run permanent answers like Condescend and Mana Leak instead, a cantrip is not good enough to justify it always being a soft counter.
That is the thinking from 4 months ago at the Pro Tour. However, what no one seems to understand is that that was a meta deck. That style of deck can be good but it isn't now. Blood Moon is a well-respected card in Modern. People often know to fetch basics now, and red decks like UR Twin and Storm are completely unaffected by it. This is also true for Spreading Seas. Blue Moon hasn't been very successful lately, and that is because people are sticking to the 100% Blood Moon plan. So I think that if we want to make Blue Moon good, instead of just trying the same thing over and over without success, we need to look at WUR Control's gameplan.Now obviously this could be seen as just trying to make an inferior copy of WUR Control, but we have 4 major advantages over it.
1. A stable enough manabase to run Blood Moon
2. A stable enough manabase to easily cast Anger of the Gods after sideboarding
3. Win-cons that don't die to Tectonic Edge
4. Needing less lands, allowing Blue Moon to run more counterspells
Unfortunately, we also lose some cards. We can't use Lightning Helix, Sphinx's Revelation, Celestial Colonnade, and Path to Exile. Helix is easily replaced by Burst Lightning, which is stronger against many decks anyways. Revelation is easily replaced by Jace, Architect of Thought, who comes down much earlier than Revelation and can provide a large amount of card advantage for only 4 mana. Colonnade is replaced with cards like Keranos, God of Storms, Batterskull, and Stormbreath Dragon, which are much harder to kill in Modern than Colonnade. Path is hard to replace, but we need to be able to fit in Blood Moon anyways. If I was making a non-budget version of Blue Moon, it would probably be similar to this (though it would need some tuning and I would love to be able to fit in Tectonic Edges and more Condescends)
If you would prefer, I could start a new thread for this. However, I truly think that this is what the future of Blue Moon has to be.
Firstly on shackles, saying a card has answers is a terrible argument. Dies to removal ad nauseum. The card is strong against affinity (did you know it can take etched champions?), BGx (their ADs are stretched thin with our blood moons), Twin (my god is it good against twin) and a variety of other creature decks. Rather than stating that the deck needs a major overhaul, why don't you try some successful decklists first? Lack of results is not weakness of gameplan, did you not see bazaar of moxen?, lack of results is lack of pilots. I based my list on Nicholas Maast's (er I don't remember his name), and I've had some good local success with my list. So before you poo poo the card choices why don't you at least test them first? My last tournament I dropped 1 game in 4 rounds.
Remand lets you stall for your bombs, and without it you should up your land count. With snapcaster you benefit from a diverse countersuite, and remand is the counter I personally play the most of.
On spreading seas, I run 2 main and 2 in the side. People believe that fetching for their basics will save them, not only does this slow down their development but having at least the option of spreading seas can completely shut them down. It cantrips, it's not a do nothing card I go up to the full 4 against most non blue decks.
Have you played much UWR? Is the lack of tec edge (of which UWR often can actually play) what makes that deck bad? Will blood moon fix its terrible matchups? You have no life gain we can't play a bad UWR flash deck. Jace AoT cannot replace Sphinx's, the lifegain is invaluable blue sun's zenith was not playable before the printing of Sphinx's.
I also suggest flame slash over burst lightning after playing UR delver for a while, burst lightning just doesn't cut it as a burn spell in modern. Especially not as a 4 of.
Edit: I also run anger main, it actually helps you pre side board against some terrible matchups like pod, merfolk and affinity.
They are slow, mana intentsive, incredibly vulnerable to Abrupt Decay/Qasali Pridemage/Harmonic Sliver, and weak on large creatures. They are basically useless against Pod, BGx, WUR Control, Affinity, Bogles, and Storm because of this. That is too many top tier decks that are unaffected by it to be a reliable include maindeck.
I can see Serum Visions being good and I am still working on that. However, I see no potential in Remand. You will not always get a turn 3 Blood Moon, you can't count on Blood Moon all of the time because it is so bad against some decks like Twin, Storm, and Affinity, and it only delays the opponent by a turn. When you can run permanent answers like Condescend and Mana Leak instead, a cantrip is not good enough to justify it always being a soft counter.
That is the thinking from 4 months ago at the Pro Tour. However, what no one seems to understand is that that was a meta deck. That style of deck can be good but it isn't now. Blood Moon is a well-respected card in Modern. People often know to fetch basics now, and red decks like UR Twin and Storm are completely unaffected by it. This is also true for Spreading Seas. Blue Moon hasn't been very successful lately, and that is because people are sticking to the 100% Blood Moon plan. So I think that if we want to make Blue Moon good, instead of just trying the same thing over and over without success, we need to look at WUR Control's gameplan.Now obviously this could be seen as just trying to make an inferior copy of WUR Control, but we have 4 major advantages over it.
1. A stable enough manabase to run Blood Moon
2. A stable enough manabase to easily cast Anger of the Gods after sideboarding
3. Win-cons that don't die to Tectonic Edge
4. Needing less lands, allowing Blue Moon to run more counterspells
Unfortunately, we also lose some cards. We can't use Lightning Helix, Sphinx's Revelation, Celestial Colonnade, and Path to Exile. Helix is easily replaced by Burst Lightning, which is stronger against many decks anyways. Revelation is easily replaced by Jace, Architect of Thought, who comes down much earlier than Revelation and can provide a large amount of card advantage for only 4 mana. Colonnade is replaced with cards like Keranos, God of Storms, Batterskull, and Stormbreath Dragon, which are much harder to kill in Modern than Colonnade. Path is hard to replace, but we need to be able to fit in Blood Moon anyways. If I was making a non-budget version of Blue Moon, it would probably be similar to this (though it would need some tuning and I would love to be able to fit in Tectonic Edges and more Condescends)
If you would prefer, I could start a new thread for this. However, I truly think that this is what the future of Blue Moon has to be.
Firstly on shackles, saying a card has answers is a terrible argument. Dies to removal ad nauseum. The card is strong against affinity (did you know it can take etched champions?), BGx (their ADs are stretched thin with our blood moons), Twin (my god is it good against twin) and a variety of other creature decks. Rather than stating that the deck needs a major overhaul, why don't you try some successful decklists first? Lack of results is not weakness of gameplan, did you not see bazaar of moxen?, lack of results is lack of pilots. I based my list on Nicholas Maast's (er I don't remember his name), and I've had some good local success with my list. So before you poo poo the card choices why don't you at least test them first? My last tournament I dropped 1 game in 4 rounds.
The point is against BGx, which it would normally be strong against, it will just meet Abrupt Decay. They can Thoughtseize or Inquisition our Blood Moons. And without the fetchlands I am not able to get to enough islands to steal large Goyfs against them. Against Affinity it is an answer for just that 1 card. Everything is really terrible to steal from Affinity because they are bad without their synergy. I admit that it is really good against Twin. And I did say that I'd try Shackles. It just seems like it will not be very good.
Remand lets you stall for your bombs, and without it you should up your land count. With snapcaster you benefit from a diverse countersuite, and remand is the counter I personally play the most of.
I am playing Condescend instead (or at least I will be when they finally arrive in the mail). It digs deeper, hard counters, can be cast for 1 mana just to scry, and is relevant in the late-game. I have tested Remand, and it never accomplished much.
On spreading seas, I run 2 main and 2 in the side. People believe that fetching for their basics will save them, not only does this slow down their development but having at least the option of spreading seas can completely shut them down. It cantrips, it's not a do nothing card I go up to the full 4 against most non blue decks.
It cantrips, but is that better than action that does more? There are so many blue decks in the format that it often doesn't do much. I tried it, and it was not better than more removal or counterspells. It certainly isn't better than Shadow of Doubt.
Have you played much UWR? Is the lack of tec edge (of which UWR often can actually play) what makes that deck bad? Will blood moon fix its terrible matchups? You have no life gain we can't play a bad UWR flash deck. Jace AoT cannot replace Sphinx's, the lifegain is invaluable blue sun's zenith was not playable before the printing of Sphinx's.
And Jace is saving you life every time you tick him back up, so I'd say that it is still even. Jace can also completely stop a Twin/Exarch combo in its tracks.
I also suggest flame slash over burst lightning after playing UR delver for a while, burst lightning just doesn't cut it as a burn spell in modern. Especially not as a 4 of.
Instant speed and targeting players makes it far better in here. Delver doesn't play enough lands or go late enough into the game for it to be kicked most of the time. In my testing against Affinity and Melira Pod, being able to Burst Lightning at end of turn was really good, especially when you are on the play. And I don't see why it wouldn't cut it. How many 3 toughness creatures see play in Modern? Nacatl and Kird Ape see play in Zoo, Blade Splicer tokens in Death and Taxes, and Treetop Village and Raging Ravnie in Jund. With Burst Lightning, you can kill Colonnades, Batterskull Germ tokens, Stormbreath Dragons, Restoration Angels, Coursers of Kruphix, Deceiver Exarchs, and all of the other creatures that pass the bolt test in Modern. It also can kill a Liliana of the Veil even after your opponent +1s her and is stronger when you are trying to burn out your opponent in the late-game than Bolt is.
Edit: I also run anger main, it actually helps you pre side board against some terrible matchups like pod, merfolk and affinity.
Anger has the same problem as much of this deck does. It is weak against a large portion of the meta. It is useless against WUR Control, Storm, RG Tron, and Scapeshift and weak against Jund, Rock, and Twin. I'd sooner play Engineered Explosives maindeck (which I admit is something that I have been considering). Also, from my testing Affinity and Pod have both been decent preboard matchups (no worse than 40-60). I think that this is because I am running Electrolyze and Burst Lightning maindeck instead of weaker cards like Spreading Seas, Vapor Snag, and Vedalken Shackles, which gives me a large advantage over the normal Blue Moon decks in these matchups. And it gets much better post-board since I can bring 7 cards against Pod and 6 against Affinity.
Have you seen my list? It's a few pages back and I don't think I've tinkered with it much, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
I'm going to concede that without fetches shackles seems much worse for your deck, but to say it's bad against affinity is (IMO) wrong. Between all the spot removal and anger's you have a legitimate game plan for affinity pre board. Just being able to either steal something they try to equip with plating or stealing a dude before blocks to chump and die, or even better block and kill both of their dudes is incredible. And it is the only way you will ever beat an etched champion preboard.
Condescend seems to be too mana hungry for me but if you are experiencing success with it I may give it some testing.
Shadow of doubt is another interesting one that I've always wished to try out, the only problem is it requires great opportunity cost. You can't stop the turn 1 crack of fetchland into basic with it, which is where spreading seas is good. It also doesn't turn off problematic lands as easily as seas, nor does it shut off tron. But I have peformed no testing on it, while the spreading seas have never underperformed for me.
I feel like Jace and Anger are two cards you can only choose one of in your Main board. But I'm still not sure why you need jace, him just plussing isn't great and for 4 mana I'd probably rather gain card advantage off cryptic or shackles. It's an interesting thought, definitely not a card I think of when building a strong modern deck. Can you run me through your thinking of using him?
On flame slash vs Burst. Burst is to inefficient a burn spell most of the time, flame slash is your premier efficient removal for X/4's. You are not a burn deck, why would you be playing glorified shock? 5 mana is... A lot. I don't know how else to say this do you understand that you are spending enough mana to drop a batterskull or a keranos, hell you could just cast domestication on the Resto Angel for that much.
I can see an argument for it as a 1 or 2 of, but certainly not as 4 of. Lil is not that much insanely scary against this deck as their are a lot of tap out threats.
I would certainly not call those cards 'weaker' as most of them have peformed well for me (with all due respect as I've been getting decent results with this list and you appear to have not I suggest not dismissing them out of hand), except for vapor snag which was the obvious first cut from the PT list. I also run my one of electrolyze which I could see myself upping to 2 depending on how the meta shakes out.
Edit: I don't mean to come off rude and I Think I may be doing that a little, I really appreciate that someone else is picking up the discussion in this thread. We are just on wildly different game plans, I like to run my list more towards the tapout and even prison side of things whereas you appear to be treating yours as a more traditional blue style control deck.
Have you seen my list? It's a few pages back and I don't think I've tinkered with it much, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
I like the list, but I have a few criticisms. I already have stated my dislike for Remand and maindeck Anger of the Gods, but if they are working for you I guess that it's fine. Izzet Charm is interesting but it doesn't seem particularly strong. And I would probably be trying to fit in Tectonic Edges or Ghost Quarters instead of Desolate Lighthouse. Other than that I'd say that the list looks pretty good. However, I still would say that only 5 hard counterspells maindeck and 2 in the sideboard are not enough.
I'm going to concede that without fetches shackles seems much worse for your deck, but to say it's bad against affinity is (IMO) wrong. Between all the spot removal and anger's you have a legitimate game plan for affinity pre board. Just being able to either steal something they try to equip with plating or stealing a dude before blocks to chump and die, or even better block and kill both of their dudes is incredible. And it is the only way you will ever beat an etched champion preboard.
When I get fetchlands I will test it. My main answer to Etched Champion is countering it, but I do need some help on that front.
Condescend seems to be too mana hungry for me but if you are experiencing success with it I may give it some testing.
Condescend really has been performing excellently. You don't have to cast it for a lot of mana. Countering a turn 2 Goyf while on the play is still only 2 mana, as is countering anything cast on the curve if you can match your opponent's lands. While it gets worse in the late-game, it is much more relevant than Remand at that stage and it can always be cast as a 1 mana scry 2 to dig for cards.
Shadow of doubt is another interesting one that I've always wished to try out, the only problem is it requires great opportunity cost. You can't stop the turn 1 crack of fetchland into basic with it, which is where spreading seas is good. It also doesn't turn off problematic lands as easily as seas, nor does it shut off tron. But I have peformed no testing on it, while the spreading seas have never underperformed for me.
While it might not shut off Tron, if you are on the play you can use it to stop Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map, costing them mana and delaying them for a couple of turns. It also has the advantage of making it harder for your opponent to pay for Mana Leak/Condescend/recasting a Remanded spell and can be flashbacked with Snapcaster Mage if necessary. And it is much stronger than Spreading Seas against Pod, Twin, and Scapeshift.
I feel like Jace and Anger are two cards you can only choose one of in your Main board. But I'm still not sure why you need jace, him just plussing isn't great and for 4 mana I'd probably rather gain card advantage off cryptic or shackles. It's an interesting thought, definitely not a card I think of when building a strong modern deck. Can you run me through your thinking of using him?
Jace is an incredibly strong CA engine if you can cast him. He is exceptionally strong against Control and Midrange, as keeping up in card advantage is key. He saves you some life against aggro with his +1 and he can dig for answers against Combo. He also has a few other minor advantages, such as being able to stop a Twin/Exarch combo and being able to win the game against Tron or Ad Nauseum if you can get him to ultimate. I can see why you wouldn't run him but every time that I have brought him in from my board he has been very strong (and I can't really run Shackles or Cryptic without fetchlands as effectively anyways).
On flame slash vs Burst. Burst is to inefficient a burn spell most of the time, flame slash is your premier efficient removal for X/4's. You are not a burn deck, why would you be playing glorified shock? 5 mana is... A lot. I don't know how else to say this do you understand that you are spending enough mana to drop a batterskull or a keranos, hell you could just cast domestication on the Resto Angel for that much.
I can see an argument for it as a 1 or 2 of, but certainly not as 4 of. Lil is not that much insanely scary against this deck as their are a lot of tap out threats.
Flame Slash is good, but it has several problems. It can't be used against players or planeswalkers. It can't stop a Splinter Twin combo. It can't immediately hit a flashed in Restoration Angel. It can never kill manlands. You can't hold up Spell Snare mana and the mana to cast this at the same time since this is a sorcery. Burst Lightning doesn't have these problems. And while you might look at it as a worse Lightning Bolt, the very existence of Lightning Bolt has shifted the format away from creatures with 3 toughness. As I said before, the only creatures that Bolt kills for 1 mana that Burst Lightning doesn't are Treetop Village, Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Blade Splicer Tokens, Wurmcoil Engine Tokens, Merfolk with 1 lord in play, Tokens with 2 anthems, Knight of the Reliquary with 1 land in the graveyard, Arcbound Ravager with 2 counters, and Raging Ravine. Burst Lightning is almost on the level of Lightning Bolt as a 1 mana removal spell and can be kicked to kill larger creatures. It is worth it.
I would certainly not call those cards 'weaker' as most of them have peformed well for me (with all due respect as I've been getting decent results with this list and you appear to have not I suggest not dismissing them out of hand), except for vapor snag which was the obvious first cut from the PT list. I also run my one of electrolyze which I could see myself upping to 2 depending on how the meta shakes out.
I would say that one of the reasons why your results are better than mine is that you can play Cryptic Command, Vendilion Clique, and fetchlands while I can't afford them, which simply makes your deck stronger than mine. As I said, I will test some of the cards in your list. I will probably try out Spreading Seas and Serum Visions again at some point, I am going to test Batterskull, and I will get Shackles and Cryptic as soon as I have fetchlands. I really am only dismissing Remand, maindeck Anger of the Gods (and this is a meta call for me as my meta has less decks that it is strong against), and Izzet Charm.
Edit: I don't mean to come off rude and I Think I may be doing that a little, I really appreciate that someone else is picking up the discussion in this thread. We are just on wildly different game plans, I like to run my list more towards the tapout and even prison side of things whereas you appear to be treating yours as a more traditional blue style control deck.
Izzet charm is one of those cards that I've always liked and have been trying to make work in modern for a while. Basically instead of playing 4 burst I'm playing the charms/slash and shackles. Just being able to counter lilliana, help in counter wars, shoot bob/pestermites/affinity dorks etc and late game I rely on my deck having much better card quality than quantity than my opponent (through the charms, loothouse and I usually clique myself) which has been incredible for me. It allows me to play these cards that may not be strong against the whole field but are powerhouses against specific strategies.
Also I've just been not happy with the available counterspells in modern, I don't feel the format is great for a counter heavy deck, the fact that even the 'control' deck is a glorified counter-burn deck is a selling point for me to move away from it. My game plan is to stall stall stall, then lock down the board with shackles/moon/keranos/batterskull. And my deck is set up to maximise that rather than specifically answer all of my opponents threats.
And honestly I would completely never suggest someone play this deck without fetches, batterskull and shackles. Cryptic is one that I intitally was excited to play but doesn't actually seem that strong in this deck, I don't feel it is very vital for the deck to run.
Izzet charm is one of those cards that I've always liked and have been trying to make work in modern for a while. Basically instead of playing 4 burst I'm playing the charms/slash and shackles. Just being able to counter lilliana, help in counter wars, shoot bob/pestermites/affinity dorks etc and late game I rely on my deck having much better card quality than quantity than my opponent (through the charms, loothouse and I usually clique myself) which has been incredible for me. It allows me to play these cards that may not be strong against the whole field but are powerhouses against specific strategies.
I personally prefer Burst because it is 1 mana, but I might try Izzet Charm. It's just that its versatility doesn't seem to be worth it losing so much power, especially since it is much worse in the late game due to not being able to counter anything, the low hand size, and the stronger creatures.
Also I've just been not happy with the available counterspells in modern, I don't feel the format is great for a counter heavy deck, the fact that even the 'control' deck is a glorified counter-burn deck is a selling point for me to move away from it. My game plan is to stall stall stall, then lock down the board with shackles/moon/keranos/batterskull. And my deck is set up to maximise that rather than specifically answer all of my opponents threats.
I personally have been perfectly fine with running a large amount of counterspells. While they aren't perfect, they are more universally good than the lockdown plan IMO.
And honestly I would completely never suggest someone play this deck without fetches, batterskull and shackles. Cryptic is one that I initially was excited to play but doesn't actually seem that strong in this deck, I don't feel it is very vital for the deck to run.
As I said, I will get to testing Batterskull. It is not a budget problem. I just wanted to try out Stormbreath Dragon, and it has been performing very well for me against nonblack decks (red decks have to 2-for-1 themselves to remove it and white can't remove it), while Batterskull seems worse because it doesn't have evasion. However, I will get to testing it. I will also work on acquiring fetchlaands.
Yeah batterskull helps you stabilize, with much needed life gain and if you want 2 for 1s. Batterskull is as much mana as you have for 1, its insane how hard it is to kill.
My logic, is that 5 mana for 4 damage is still terrible late game, whereas flashing back the looting mode on izzet charm is sweeet. Or even just loot away excess lands (I'm from a legacy background, so I'm used to holding my lands to turn them into card quality), moons, seas, or soft counters.
Skull has 3 bounce, it is literally unkillable. If you untap with it, it won't die and if they can kill it you can cast it with the mana open. Just because answers exist does not make a card bad. If they are obtuse, difficult to cast or used on other cards (ie shackles and moons) they should not enter the conversation especially on the unkillable skull.
Flame slash hits x/4s thats all there is too it, red decks struggle to beat big creatures. It can hit Angels (thune and resotration and linvala), smallish goyfs (important, sorc/inst/land is usually whats in the bin in our matches when a t2 goyf lands and you can slash it), courser of kruphix (which is a beating if it resolves) etc. As a control deck we need a variety of answers and flame slash is the most efficient one
Yeah batterskull helps you stabilize, with much needed life gain and if you want 2 for 1s. Batterskull is as much mana as you have for 1, its insane how hard it is to kill.
I'll work on getting some. It will be nice not being vulnerable to Slaughter Pact anymore.
My logic, is that 5 mana for 4 damage is still terrible late game, whereas flashing back the looting mode on izzet charm is sweeet. Or even just loot away excess lands (I'm from a legacy background, so I'm used to holding my lands to turn them into card quality), moons, seas, or soft counters.
Since I am playing more hard counters than you and no Spreading Seas, it is less of a problem for me that I don't have the looting. And while 5 mana for 4 damage is still terrible, it is better than nothing and Izzet Charm isn't helping to kill the large creatures that get through.
I went 3-2 at a local tournament tonight, will do a full report if anyone is interested. Deck is so strong against grindy blue decks I'm going to tune it for BG/aggro more I think.
I went 3-2 at a local tournament tonight, will do a full report if anyone is interested. Deck is so strong against grindy blue decks I'm going to tune it for BG/aggro more I think.
If you could do a full report it would be much appreciated.
On a different note, I think that I am going to test Magma Jet instead of Electrolyze. I like Electrolyze, but the 3-drop slot is cluttered in my deck if you count Snapcaster Mage as a 3-drop so it is worth a test.
R1 Paul with Boros/Goblins 2-1
I mulled to 5 game 1, he played lots of basic lands (terrible sign) goblins and burn to the face. I spent the game scrying to batterskull, put it into play at 5 life, token got killed with searing blood put me to two. I flashed in a snapcaster mage end of his turn suited him up and went to town.
In
+2 Relic
+1 Negate
+1 Threads
+1 Spreading Seas
+1 Anger
Out
-4 Blood Moon
-2 Remand
Game 2 was pretty terrible, I kept a hand of two islands, bolts serum visions etc. I stalled on 2 islands the whole game, and got my face beat in by a goblin guide and a vexing devil.
Game 3 was the reverse, he stalled on land and I spreading seas'd both mountains he played leaving him with 2 islands and a plains, I wrath'd away the two Legion Loyalists with an anger it was pretty brutal.
1-0
Round 2 Jin With BG Rock 1-2
Jin usually plays awesome brews so I was excited to play against him, during shuffling I asked him about his deck, and he told me how he came into some money and just bought goyfs with it (ruh oh).
So game 1 he inquistioned and thoughtseized taking both my snares, leaving me with lands, snappy and a blood moon. I ended up resolving a shackles then a moon only for him to draw and play a basic forest then a a goyf. He killed my shackles and discarded a liliana making it huge. I bolted him a couple of times and stalled with snapcaster mage but couldn't get there.
In
+1 Threads
+2 Seas
+2 Relic
+2 Keranos
Out
-2 Anger
-3 Remand
-1 Izzet Charm
-1 Bolt
I leaked a bob then tapped low to threads a spellskite allowing myself to swing into a lil opening myself up to a 3/4 goyf, to which I blood moon locked him out. He got in a couple of shots with his 3/4 goyf till I double bolted it, then rode a clique to victory. I had an electrolyze stuck in my hand the whole game chiding myself for not siding it out.
In
+1 Bolt
Out
-1 Electrolyze
Game 3 was grindy, I resolved a shackles that got destroyed. I think I shackles in response to an a decay, game looked pretty locked up but he resolved an 8/9 goyf (yes 8/9, keranos had been discarded) and a lil, which I had to to do a combination of snapcasters and bolts to get rid of. He played a Scooze, when I found a relic, only for him to maelstrom pulse a spreading seas to restart his clock. I snapped back a bolt to kill the ooze, he eventually found another ooze and beat my face in.
1-1
Round 3 Jono with Merfolk 1-2
I resolved an early moon locking him out of mutavault and cavern of souls. I resolved a shackles, and through a combination of bolts and snapcasters eventually locked him out of the game when I resolved my 2nd shackles. He seemed relatively new, missing some untap triggers with a reejerry and missing his merfolk having island walk when I stole his lord of atlantis. I ended up stealing a master of waves to kill his elemental tokens and beating him in with a 3/2 master and lord of atlantis.
In
+3 Combust
+1 Threads
+1 Anger
Out
-2 Seas
-3 Remand
I looked the goods here, after he had turn 1 vial and turn 2 vial I wasted a bolt when he vial'd in a spellskite, and he had an adept and a curse catcher. I saw his hand with a clique, to reveal swan song, phantasmal image and vapor snag. I thought I was the goods when he went adept into master which I angered away. But his adept had found gas and he just ran threat after threat off and I ended up dying.
Game 3 I kept a serum vision + 2 island hand with bolts and combust. I had 13 outs of red mana. 6 turns later I had 5 islands out, and a shackles. It was nowhere near enough, with a hand full of red cards.
R1 Paul with Boros/Goblins 2-1
I mulled to 5 game 1, he played lots of basic lands (terrible sign) goblins and burn to the face. I spent the game scrying to batterskull, put it into play at 5 life, token got killed with searing blood put me to two. I flashed in a snapcaster mage end of his turn suited him up and went to town.
In
+2 Relic
+1 Negate
+1 Threads
+1 Spreading Seas
+1 Anger
Out
-4 Blood Moon
-2 Remand
Game 2 was pretty terrible, I kept a hand of two islands, bolts serum visions etc. I stalled on 2 islands the whole game, and got my face beat in by a goblin guide and a vexing devil.
Game 3 was the reverse, he stalled on land and I spreading seas'd both mountains he played leaving him with 2 islands and a plains, I wrath'd away the two Legion Loyalists with an anger it was pretty brutal.
1-0
Round 2 Jin With BG Rock 1-2
Jin usually plays awesome brews so I was excited to play against him, during shuffling I asked him about his deck, and he told me how he came into some money and just bought goyfs with it (ruh oh).
So game 1 he inquistioned and thoughtseized taking both my snares, leaving me with lands, snappy and a blood moon. I ended up resolving a shackles then a moon only for him to draw and play a basic forest then a a goyf. He killed my shackles and discarded a liliana making it huge. I bolted him a couple of times and stalled with snapcaster mage but couldn't get there.
In
+1 Threads
+2 Seas
+2 Relic
+2 Keranos
Out
-2 Anger
-3 Remand
-1 Izzet Charm
-1 Bolt
I leaked a bob then tapped low to threads a spellskite allowing myself to swing into a lil opening myself up to a 3/4 goyf, to which I blood moon locked him out. He got in a couple of shots with his 3/4 goyf till I double bolted it, then rode a clique to victory. I had an electrolyze stuck in my hand the whole game chiding myself for not siding it out.
In
+1 Bolt
Out
-1 Electrolyze
Game 3 was grindy, I resolved a shackles that got destroyed. I think I shackles in response to an a decay, game looked pretty locked up but he resolved an 8/9 goyf (yes 8/9, keranos had been discarded) and a lil, which I had to to do a combination of snapcasters and bolts to get rid of. He played a Scooze, when I found a relic, only for him to maelstrom pulse a spreading seas to restart his clock. I snapped back a bolt to kill the ooze, he eventually found another ooze and beat my face in.
1-1
Round 3 Jono with Merfolk 1-2
I resolved an early moon locking him out of mutavault and cavern of souls. I resolved a shackles, and through a combination of bolts and snapcasters eventually locked him out of the game when I resolved my 2nd shackles. He seemed relatively new, missing some untap triggers with a reejerry and missing his merfolk having island walk when I stole his lord of atlantis. I ended up stealing a master of waves to kill his elemental tokens and beating him in with a 3/2 master and lord of atlantis.
In
+3 Combust
+1 Threads
+1 Anger
Out
-2 Seas
-3 Remand
I looked the goods here, after he had turn 1 vial and turn 2 vial I wasted a bolt when he vial'd in a spellskite, and he had an adept and a curse catcher. I saw his hand with a clique, to reveal swan song, phantasmal image and vapor snag. I thought I was the goods when he went adept into master which I angered away. But his adept had found gas and he just ran threat after threat off and I ended up dying.
Game 3 I kept a serum vision + 2 island hand with bolts and combust. I had 13 outs of red mana. 6 turns later I had 5 islands out, and a shackles. It was nowhere near enough, with a hand full of red cards.
1-2
Will finish later tonight
Are you sure that you don't want to cut Remand for Condescend? It seems like Remand hasn't been playing particularly well for you.
@valanarch: hahaha, wait my friend they are 3 bad matchups for remand, in fact most of them are bad for counters in general.
Round 4 Mitch with RG tron 2-0
Game 1 I snuck a quick bloodmoon down, but he just kept playing lands and cantripping. I had to counter a wurmcoil off the table, he forced through a karn and ate my moon. I think I bolted it then beat face in with a batterskull.
In
+2 Seas
+1 Negate
+1 Counterflux
Out
-2 Anger
-1 Flame slash
-1 Leak
Game 2 was a slog, I seas'd a tower, resolved a moon, got o stoned. Resolved another + a snappy. Another o stone, seas'd some more, another o stone. Eventually landed a 3rd moon, countered everything relevant and rode a batterskull/snapcaster and bolts to victory. he hard cast karn, wurmcoil under moon, and had the emrakul in hand at the end
2-2
Round 5 Rupa with 4 colour gifts twin
Absolutely sweet deck idea, terrible match up for him.
Game 1 he kept a one lander, and stalled moving to discard. I hid the moons + skulls to not give away much info. I saw him discard a batterskull and a splinter twin parts. Also saw him with what I thought was grixis mana.
Out
-2 Anger
-2 Izzet Charm
-2 Seas
In
+2 Keranos
+2 Combust
+2 Relic
We played some draw go for a few turns, I leaked an electrolyze at the end of my turn, and then sent one at him at the end of his turn. He responded with gifts, I had two mana open, remand, charm, leak and moon in my hand. His lands were Hallowed fountain, vents x2, grave, mountain, tec edge (I think). I figure that the game is about my moon (not that he knew obviously), he searches and thinks for a while, I was anticipating value gifts or maybe for a wear/tear but he just goes for rites + griselbrand straight up. Phew. I untap, moon him and winning from there is academic, he does eventually get a kikki jikki and a basic island but I beat face with clique and eventually land a keranos to which he scoops.
3-2
As I already knew deck is weak to goyf, and crushes blue control/midrange decks. As the meta is shifting back to BGx, I'm going to tune this deck to better perform against it, and pod.
Gun to my head this would be my revised list
But turn/burn is worth looking into, merfolk is always going to be a sucky match. Negate/Flux in the board are pretty flex depending on meta, my local store is very inbred and blue based, in an open field I may opt for a more tap out plan.
So I'm thinking of play at least a misers ensaring bridge in the board, maybe another threads, maybe a turn/burn.
Hell I"m thinking of giving tamiyo some testing. What strong control permanents am I missing in UR?
So I'm thinking of play at least a misers ensaring bridge in the board, maybe another threads, maybe a turn/burn.
Hell I"m thinking of giving tamiyo some testing. What strong control permanents am I missing in UR?
I have been thinking about Tamiyo. However, for that much mana I would probably prefer the third Keranos. Still, it could use some testing. Ensanaring Bridge really doesn't work well with countermagic and cantrips. Turn/Burn seems a little too expensive, but it might work. What I am going to be testing this week instead of the mainboard Jaces is Steam Augury. My version of the deck runs enough duplicate cards to make up for the drawback, it is instant speed, and it works much better with Snapcaster Mage.
Steam Augury is something I've considered, but with a move toward a tap out style I could play ensnaring bridge. I'd rather lock them out and control the board with no cards in hand than try to keep my hand size up.
Edit: To clarify this statement, with the lack of good counterspells and narrow removal in modern I'd rather proactively control the game (as wizards has moved too recently) as apposed to the old school control strategy of generate card advantage and answer everything 1 for 1
Tamiyo protects herself better than keranos, I'm finding (tho he's strong on an empty board) that keranos is awkward when the BGx have a creature in play or a manland (hence why I'm playing the skulls main). Tamiyo demands a non a decay/non bolt answer and locks down a threat, she could almost be a a weaker ajani vengeant(how I wish we could play ajani)
Shackles are good against any deck with creatures I don't understand how you could think they're mediocre. They're an incredible source of card advantage.
This deck isn't like UWR where we operate at instant speed only, are you using all your mana ever turn? If not, serum visions is a good use of your. Remand as well works because we operate on this weird axis of card advantage where anything they do before we land blood moon is probably sticking (thinking about goyf) being able to remand into Moon is pretty phenomenal, and under the moon remand puts away decks quickly. Finally against other blue decks remand is a source of card advantage.
Don't run into this deck thinking its a blue control deck, its a blood moon deck, we tap out, we're proactive. Seas, serum visions and shackles all fit into this plan well. I'm not even sure if this deck could function well without fetches, I guess without cryptic and shackles it isn't terribly neccessary but I feel this more than most decks actually uses fetches for its game plan.
They are slow, mana intentsive, incredibly vulnerable to Abrupt Decay/Qasali Pridemage/Harmonic Sliver, and weak on large creatures. They are basically useless against Pod, BGx, WUR Control, Affinity, Bogles, and Storm because of this. That is too many top tier decks that are unaffected by it to be a reliable include maindeck.
I can see Serum Visions being good and I am still working on that. However, I see no potential in Remand. You will not always get a turn 3 Blood Moon, you can't count on Blood Moon all of the time because it is so bad against some decks like Twin, Storm, and Affinity, and it only delays the opponent by a turn. When you can run permanent answers like Condescend and Mana Leak instead, a cantrip is not good enough to justify it always being a soft counter.
That is the thinking from 4 months ago at the Pro Tour. However, what no one seems to understand is that that was a meta deck. That style of deck can be good but it isn't now. Blood Moon is a well-respected card in Modern. People often know to fetch basics now, and red decks like UR Twin and Storm are completely unaffected by it. This is also true for Spreading Seas. Blue Moon hasn't been very successful lately, and that is because people are sticking to the 100% Blood Moon plan. So I think that if we want to make Blue Moon good, instead of just trying the same thing over and over without success, we need to look at WUR Control's gameplan.Now obviously this could be seen as just trying to make an inferior copy of WUR Control, but we have 4 major advantages over it.
1. A stable enough manabase to run Blood Moon
2. A stable enough manabase to easily cast Anger of the Gods after sideboarding
3. Win-cons that don't die to Tectonic Edge
4. Needing less lands, allowing Blue Moon to run more counterspells
Unfortunately, we also lose some cards. We can't use Lightning Helix, Sphinx's Revelation, Celestial Colonnade, and Path to Exile. Helix is easily replaced by Burst Lightning, which is stronger against many decks anyways. Revelation is easily replaced by Jace, Architect of Thought, who comes down much earlier than Revelation and can provide a large amount of card advantage for only 4 mana. Colonnade is replaced with cards like Keranos, God of Storms, Batterskull, and Stormbreath Dragon, which are much harder to kill in Modern than Colonnade. Path is hard to replace, but we need to be able to fit in Blood Moon anyways. If I was making a non-budget version of Blue Moon, it would probably be similar to this (though it would need some tuning and I would love to be able to fit in Tectonic Edges and more Condescends)
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Blood Moon
4 Burst Lightning
2 Condescend
4 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
9 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
If you would prefer, I could start a new thread for this. However, I truly think that this is what the future of Blue Moon has to be.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Firstly on shackles, saying a card has answers is a terrible argument. Dies to removal ad nauseum. The card is strong against affinity (did you know it can take etched champions?), BGx (their ADs are stretched thin with our blood moons), Twin (my god is it good against twin) and a variety of other creature decks. Rather than stating that the deck needs a major overhaul, why don't you try some successful decklists first? Lack of results is not weakness of gameplan, did you not see bazaar of moxen?, lack of results is lack of pilots. I based my list on Nicholas Maast's (er I don't remember his name), and I've had some good local success with my list. So before you poo poo the card choices why don't you at least test them first? My last tournament I dropped 1 game in 4 rounds.
Remand lets you stall for your bombs, and without it you should up your land count. With snapcaster you benefit from a diverse countersuite, and remand is the counter I personally play the most of.
On spreading seas, I run 2 main and 2 in the side. People believe that fetching for their basics will save them, not only does this slow down their development but having at least the option of spreading seas can completely shut them down. It cantrips, it's not a do nothing card I go up to the full 4 against most non blue decks.
Have you played much UWR? Is the lack of tec edge (of which UWR often can actually play) what makes that deck bad? Will blood moon fix its terrible matchups? You have no life gain we can't play a bad UWR flash deck. Jace AoT cannot replace Sphinx's, the lifegain is invaluable blue sun's zenith was not playable before the printing of Sphinx's.
I also suggest flame slash over burst lightning after playing UR delver for a while, burst lightning just doesn't cut it as a burn spell in modern. Especially not as a 4 of.
Edit: I also run anger main, it actually helps you pre side board against some terrible matchups like pod, merfolk and affinity.
The point is against BGx, which it would normally be strong against, it will just meet Abrupt Decay. They can Thoughtseize or Inquisition our Blood Moons. And without the fetchlands I am not able to get to enough islands to steal large Goyfs against them. Against Affinity it is an answer for just that 1 card. Everything is really terrible to steal from Affinity because they are bad without their synergy. I admit that it is really good against Twin. And I did say that I'd try Shackles. It just seems like it will not be very good.
I am playing Condescend instead (or at least I will be when they finally arrive in the mail). It digs deeper, hard counters, can be cast for 1 mana just to scry, and is relevant in the late-game. I have tested Remand, and it never accomplished much.
It cantrips, but is that better than action that does more? There are so many blue decks in the format that it often doesn't do much. I tried it, and it was not better than more removal or counterspells. It certainly isn't better than Shadow of Doubt.
And Jace is saving you life every time you tick him back up, so I'd say that it is still even. Jace can also completely stop a Twin/Exarch combo in its tracks.
Instant speed and targeting players makes it far better in here. Delver doesn't play enough lands or go late enough into the game for it to be kicked most of the time. In my testing against Affinity and Melira Pod, being able to Burst Lightning at end of turn was really good, especially when you are on the play. And I don't see why it wouldn't cut it. How many 3 toughness creatures see play in Modern? Nacatl and Kird Ape see play in Zoo, Blade Splicer tokens in Death and Taxes, and Treetop Village and Raging Ravnie in Jund. With Burst Lightning, you can kill Colonnades, Batterskull Germ tokens, Stormbreath Dragons, Restoration Angels, Coursers of Kruphix, Deceiver Exarchs, and all of the other creatures that pass the bolt test in Modern. It also can kill a Liliana of the Veil even after your opponent +1s her and is stronger when you are trying to burn out your opponent in the late-game than Bolt is.
Anger has the same problem as much of this deck does. It is weak against a large portion of the meta. It is useless against WUR Control, Storm, RG Tron, and Scapeshift and weak against Jund, Rock, and Twin. I'd sooner play Engineered Explosives maindeck (which I admit is something that I have been considering). Also, from my testing Affinity and Pod have both been decent preboard matchups (no worse than 40-60). I think that this is because I am running Electrolyze and Burst Lightning maindeck instead of weaker cards like Spreading Seas, Vapor Snag, and Vedalken Shackles, which gives me a large advantage over the normal Blue Moon decks in these matchups. And it gets much better post-board since I can bring 7 cards against Pod and 6 against Affinity.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm going to concede that without fetches shackles seems much worse for your deck, but to say it's bad against affinity is (IMO) wrong. Between all the spot removal and anger's you have a legitimate game plan for affinity pre board. Just being able to either steal something they try to equip with plating or stealing a dude before blocks to chump and die, or even better block and kill both of their dudes is incredible. And it is the only way you will ever beat an etched champion preboard.
Condescend seems to be too mana hungry for me but if you are experiencing success with it I may give it some testing.
Shadow of doubt is another interesting one that I've always wished to try out, the only problem is it requires great opportunity cost. You can't stop the turn 1 crack of fetchland into basic with it, which is where spreading seas is good. It also doesn't turn off problematic lands as easily as seas, nor does it shut off tron. But I have peformed no testing on it, while the spreading seas have never underperformed for me.
I feel like Jace and Anger are two cards you can only choose one of in your Main board. But I'm still not sure why you need jace, him just plussing isn't great and for 4 mana I'd probably rather gain card advantage off cryptic or shackles. It's an interesting thought, definitely not a card I think of when building a strong modern deck. Can you run me through your thinking of using him?
On flame slash vs Burst. Burst is to inefficient a burn spell most of the time, flame slash is your premier efficient removal for X/4's. You are not a burn deck, why would you be playing glorified shock? 5 mana is... A lot. I don't know how else to say this do you understand that you are spending enough mana to drop a batterskull or a keranos, hell you could just cast domestication on the Resto Angel for that much.
I can see an argument for it as a 1 or 2 of, but certainly not as 4 of. Lil is not that much insanely scary against this deck as their are a lot of tap out threats.
I would certainly not call those cards 'weaker' as most of them have peformed well for me (with all due respect as I've been getting decent results with this list and you appear to have not I suggest not dismissing them out of hand), except for vapor snag which was the obvious first cut from the PT list. I also run my one of electrolyze which I could see myself upping to 2 depending on how the meta shakes out.
Edit: I don't mean to come off rude and I Think I may be doing that a little, I really appreciate that someone else is picking up the discussion in this thread. We are just on wildly different game plans, I like to run my list more towards the tapout and even prison side of things whereas you appear to be treating yours as a more traditional blue style control deck.
I like the list, but I have a few criticisms. I already have stated my dislike for Remand and maindeck Anger of the Gods, but if they are working for you I guess that it's fine. Izzet Charm is interesting but it doesn't seem particularly strong. And I would probably be trying to fit in Tectonic Edges or Ghost Quarters instead of Desolate Lighthouse. Other than that I'd say that the list looks pretty good. However, I still would say that only 5 hard counterspells maindeck and 2 in the sideboard are not enough.
When I get fetchlands I will test it. My main answer to Etched Champion is countering it, but I do need some help on that front.
Condescend really has been performing excellently. You don't have to cast it for a lot of mana. Countering a turn 2 Goyf while on the play is still only 2 mana, as is countering anything cast on the curve if you can match your opponent's lands. While it gets worse in the late-game, it is much more relevant than Remand at that stage and it can always be cast as a 1 mana scry 2 to dig for cards.
While it might not shut off Tron, if you are on the play you can use it to stop Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map, costing them mana and delaying them for a couple of turns. It also has the advantage of making it harder for your opponent to pay for Mana Leak/Condescend/recasting a Remanded spell and can be flashbacked with Snapcaster Mage if necessary. And it is much stronger than Spreading Seas against Pod, Twin, and Scapeshift.
Jace is an incredibly strong CA engine if you can cast him. He is exceptionally strong against Control and Midrange, as keeping up in card advantage is key. He saves you some life against aggro with his +1 and he can dig for answers against Combo. He also has a few other minor advantages, such as being able to stop a Twin/Exarch combo and being able to win the game against Tron or Ad Nauseum if you can get him to ultimate. I can see why you wouldn't run him but every time that I have brought him in from my board he has been very strong (and I can't really run Shackles or Cryptic without fetchlands as effectively anyways).
Flame Slash is good, but it has several problems. It can't be used against players or planeswalkers. It can't stop a Splinter Twin combo. It can't immediately hit a flashed in Restoration Angel. It can never kill manlands. You can't hold up Spell Snare mana and the mana to cast this at the same time since this is a sorcery. Burst Lightning doesn't have these problems. And while you might look at it as a worse Lightning Bolt, the very existence of Lightning Bolt has shifted the format away from creatures with 3 toughness. As I said before, the only creatures that Bolt kills for 1 mana that Burst Lightning doesn't are Treetop Village, Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Blade Splicer Tokens, Wurmcoil Engine Tokens, Merfolk with 1 lord in play, Tokens with 2 anthems, Knight of the Reliquary with 1 land in the graveyard, Arcbound Ravager with 2 counters, and Raging Ravine. Burst Lightning is almost on the level of Lightning Bolt as a 1 mana removal spell and can be kicked to kill larger creatures. It is worth it.
I would say that one of the reasons why your results are better than mine is that you can play Cryptic Command, Vendilion Clique, and fetchlands while I can't afford them, which simply makes your deck stronger than mine. As I said, I will test some of the cards in your list. I will probably try out Spreading Seas and Serum Visions again at some point, I am going to test Batterskull, and I will get Shackles and Cryptic as soon as I have fetchlands. I really am only dismissing Remand, maindeck Anger of the Gods (and this is a meta call for me as my meta has less decks that it is strong against), and Izzet Charm.
It's fine, you aren't coming off as rude.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Also I've just been not happy with the available counterspells in modern, I don't feel the format is great for a counter heavy deck, the fact that even the 'control' deck is a glorified counter-burn deck is a selling point for me to move away from it. My game plan is to stall stall stall, then lock down the board with shackles/moon/keranos/batterskull. And my deck is set up to maximise that rather than specifically answer all of my opponents threats.
And honestly I would completely never suggest someone play this deck without fetches, batterskull and shackles. Cryptic is one that I intitally was excited to play but doesn't actually seem that strong in this deck, I don't feel it is very vital for the deck to run.
I personally prefer Burst because it is 1 mana, but I might try Izzet Charm. It's just that its versatility doesn't seem to be worth it losing so much power, especially since it is much worse in the late game due to not being able to counter anything, the low hand size, and the stronger creatures.
I personally have been perfectly fine with running a large amount of counterspells. While they aren't perfect, they are more universally good than the lockdown plan IMO.
As I said, I will get to testing Batterskull. It is not a budget problem. I just wanted to try out Stormbreath Dragon, and it has been performing very well for me against nonblack decks (red decks have to 2-for-1 themselves to remove it and white can't remove it), while Batterskull seems worse because it doesn't have evasion. However, I will get to testing it. I will also work on acquiring fetchlaands.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
My logic, is that 5 mana for 4 damage is still terrible late game, whereas flashing back the looting mode on izzet charm is sweeet. Or even just loot away excess lands (I'm from a legacy background, so I'm used to holding my lands to turn them into card quality), moons, seas, or soft counters.
Flame slash hits x/4s thats all there is too it, red decks struggle to beat big creatures. It can hit Angels (thune and resotration and linvala), smallish goyfs (important, sorc/inst/land is usually whats in the bin in our matches when a t2 goyf lands and you can slash it), courser of kruphix (which is a beating if it resolves) etc. As a control deck we need a variety of answers and flame slash is the most efficient one
I'll work on getting some. It will be nice not being vulnerable to Slaughter Pact anymore.
Since I am playing more hard counters than you and no Spreading Seas, it is less of a problem for me that I don't have the looting. And while 5 mana for 4 damage is still terrible, it is better than nothing and Izzet Charm isn't helping to kill the large creatures that get through.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If you could do a full report it would be much appreciated.
On a different note, I think that I am going to test Magma Jet instead of Electrolyze. I like Electrolyze, but the 3-drop slot is cluttered in my deck if you count Snapcaster Mage as a 3-drop so it is worth a test.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I mulled to 5 game 1, he played lots of basic lands (terrible sign) goblins and burn to the face. I spent the game scrying to batterskull, put it into play at 5 life, token got killed with searing blood put me to two. I flashed in a snapcaster mage end of his turn suited him up and went to town.
In
+2 Relic
+1 Negate
+1 Threads
+1 Spreading Seas
+1 Anger
Out
-4 Blood Moon
-2 Remand
Game 2 was pretty terrible, I kept a hand of two islands, bolts serum visions etc. I stalled on 2 islands the whole game, and got my face beat in by a goblin guide and a vexing devil.
Game 3 was the reverse, he stalled on land and I spreading seas'd both mountains he played leaving him with 2 islands and a plains, I wrath'd away the two Legion Loyalists with an anger it was pretty brutal.
1-0
Round 2 Jin With BG Rock 1-2
Jin usually plays awesome brews so I was excited to play against him, during shuffling I asked him about his deck, and he told me how he came into some money and just bought goyfs with it (ruh oh).
So game 1 he inquistioned and thoughtseized taking both my snares, leaving me with lands, snappy and a blood moon. I ended up resolving a shackles then a moon only for him to draw and play a basic forest then a a goyf. He killed my shackles and discarded a liliana making it huge. I bolted him a couple of times and stalled with snapcaster mage but couldn't get there.
In
+1 Threads
+2 Seas
+2 Relic
+2 Keranos
Out
-2 Anger
-3 Remand
-1 Izzet Charm
-1 Bolt
I leaked a bob then tapped low to threads a spellskite allowing myself to swing into a lil opening myself up to a 3/4 goyf, to which I blood moon locked him out. He got in a couple of shots with his 3/4 goyf till I double bolted it, then rode a clique to victory. I had an electrolyze stuck in my hand the whole game chiding myself for not siding it out.
In
+1 Bolt
Out
-1 Electrolyze
Game 3 was grindy, I resolved a shackles that got destroyed. I think I shackles in response to an a decay, game looked pretty locked up but he resolved an 8/9 goyf (yes 8/9, keranos had been discarded) and a lil, which I had to to do a combination of snapcasters and bolts to get rid of. He played a Scooze, when I found a relic, only for him to maelstrom pulse a spreading seas to restart his clock. I snapped back a bolt to kill the ooze, he eventually found another ooze and beat my face in.
1-1
Round 3 Jono with Merfolk 1-2
I resolved an early moon locking him out of mutavault and cavern of souls. I resolved a shackles, and through a combination of bolts and snapcasters eventually locked him out of the game when I resolved my 2nd shackles. He seemed relatively new, missing some untap triggers with a reejerry and missing his merfolk having island walk when I stole his lord of atlantis. I ended up stealing a master of waves to kill his elemental tokens and beating him in with a 3/2 master and lord of atlantis.
In
+3 Combust
+1 Threads
+1 Anger
Out
-2 Seas
-3 Remand
I looked the goods here, after he had turn 1 vial and turn 2 vial I wasted a bolt when he vial'd in a spellskite, and he had an adept and a curse catcher. I saw his hand with a clique, to reveal swan song, phantasmal image and vapor snag. I thought I was the goods when he went adept into master which I angered away. But his adept had found gas and he just ran threat after threat off and I ended up dying.
Game 3 I kept a serum vision + 2 island hand with bolts and combust. I had 13 outs of red mana. 6 turns later I had 5 islands out, and a shackles. It was nowhere near enough, with a hand full of red cards.
1-2
Will finish later tonight
Are you sure that you don't want to cut Remand for Condescend? It seems like Remand hasn't been playing particularly well for you.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Round 4 Mitch with RG tron 2-0
Game 1 I snuck a quick bloodmoon down, but he just kept playing lands and cantripping. I had to counter a wurmcoil off the table, he forced through a karn and ate my moon. I think I bolted it then beat face in with a batterskull.
In
+2 Seas
+1 Negate
+1 Counterflux
Out
-2 Anger
-1 Flame slash
-1 Leak
Game 2 was a slog, I seas'd a tower, resolved a moon, got o stoned. Resolved another + a snappy. Another o stone, seas'd some more, another o stone. Eventually landed a 3rd moon, countered everything relevant and rode a batterskull/snapcaster and bolts to victory. he hard cast karn, wurmcoil under moon, and had the emrakul in hand at the end
2-2
Round 5 Rupa with 4 colour gifts twin
Absolutely sweet deck idea, terrible match up for him.
Game 1 he kept a one lander, and stalled moving to discard. I hid the moons + skulls to not give away much info. I saw him discard a batterskull and a splinter twin parts. Also saw him with what I thought was grixis mana.
Out
-2 Anger
-2 Izzet Charm
-2 Seas
In
+2 Keranos
+2 Combust
+2 Relic
We played some draw go for a few turns, I leaked an electrolyze at the end of my turn, and then sent one at him at the end of his turn. He responded with gifts, I had two mana open, remand, charm, leak and moon in my hand. His lands were Hallowed fountain, vents x2, grave, mountain, tec edge (I think). I figure that the game is about my moon (not that he knew obviously), he searches and thinks for a while, I was anticipating value gifts or maybe for a wear/tear but he just goes for rites + griselbrand straight up. Phew. I untap, moon him and winning from there is academic, he does eventually get a kikki jikki and a basic island but I beat face with clique and eventually land a keranos to which he scoops.
3-2
As I already knew deck is weak to goyf, and crushes blue control/midrange decks. As the meta is shifting back to BGx, I'm going to tune this deck to better perform against it, and pod.
Gun to my head this would be my revised list
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
9 Island
1 Mountain
2 Sulfur Falls
3 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Slash
2 Izzet Charm
3 Spell Snare
1 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Batterskull
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Spreading Seas
1 Electrolyze
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Anger of the Gods
But turn/burn is worth looking into, merfolk is always going to be a sucky match. Negate/Flux in the board are pretty flex depending on meta, my local store is very inbred and blue based, in an open field I may opt for a more tap out plan.
Hell I"m thinking of giving tamiyo some testing. What strong control permanents am I missing in UR?
I have been thinking about Tamiyo. However, for that much mana I would probably prefer the third Keranos. Still, it could use some testing. Ensanaring Bridge really doesn't work well with countermagic and cantrips. Turn/Burn seems a little too expensive, but it might work. What I am going to be testing this week instead of the mainboard Jaces is Steam Augury. My version of the deck runs enough duplicate cards to make up for the drawback, it is instant speed, and it works much better with Snapcaster Mage.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Edit: To clarify this statement, with the lack of good counterspells and narrow removal in modern I'd rather proactively control the game (as wizards has moved too recently) as apposed to the old school control strategy of generate card advantage and answer everything 1 for 1
Tamiyo protects herself better than keranos, I'm finding (tho he's strong on an empty board) that keranos is awkward when the BGx have a creature in play or a manland (hence why I'm playing the skulls main). Tamiyo demands a non a decay/non bolt answer and locks down a threat, she could almost be a a weaker ajani vengeant(how I wish we could play ajani)