I like Starfeild and might try for I have my old enchantress lying around. I think you right on the moon inside I think I might bump it up to two copies since I have more flex spots. Also with all the grindiness at my meta I will welcome a second or third Seige. (For I have this grand ability to draw big momma Emmy every game.) there is no better feeling than watching as joy drains from my opponents face as more RBs come on back.
I like the list a fair bit but I do have some ideas or thoughts about the list overall. One of those being the Simian Spirit guides, or as I will call them for the ease of this the monkeys. When I first started this deck I thought that the monkeys were quite valuable and that they were good. Then as i played more and more I wasn't impressed by them. On occasion they were decent but never that good and one of the reason that I personally don't like them is that I rarely wanted to Restore before turn three. I preferred to take away more resources and just use my life total as a resource to abuse. That said the monkeys might fit in the deck just not in my meta, or in where I believe the meta to be. I prefer to go with a slower main board with more hate and control with sideboardable interaction for the faster decks. One of the other things I've tried recently and vouch for immensely is the Sideboard cards of Odds//Ends and Oketra's Last Mercy, these have been all stars in my deck and have easily replace Ricochet Trap and Timely Reinforcement. Where i still like trap as a card and have a 1/1 split of the two I believe the Oketra upgrade is just better for this deck. Finally I don't critique to much but I do believe personally that you may have to many mana sources, with the high concentration of lands with a higher concentration of borderpost. With both you have 26 total sources now many on this thread from my experience have opted for higher lands and less borderpost or a higher concentration of lands and border post but I've settled on 23 or 24 mana producing sources. (Not including As Fortold) My last thing to plague you with is as mentioned above that the dredge match up is quite poor and even though it is harder to cast I believe Anger of the Gods will assist you in the second worst match up of dredge, the worst being burn.
I like the list a fair bit but I do have some ideas or thoughts about the list overall. One of those being the Simian Spirit guides, or as I will call them for the ease of this the monkeys. When I first started this deck I thought that the monkeys were quite valuable and that they were good. Then as i played more and more I wasn't impressed by them. On occasion they were decent but never that good and one of the reason that I personally don't like them is that I rarely wanted to Restore before turn three. I preferred to take away more resources and just use my life total as a resource to abuse. That said the monkeys might fit in the deck just not in my meta, or in where I believe the meta to be. I prefer to go with a slower main board with more hate and control with sideboardable interaction for the faster decks. One of the other things I've tried recently and vouch for immensely is the Sideboard cards of Odds//Ends and Oketra's Last Mercy, these have been all stars in my deck and have easily replace Ricochet Trap and Timely Reinforcement. Where i still like trap as a card and have a 1/1 split of the two I believe the Oketra upgrade is just better for this deck. Finally I don't critique to much but I do believe personally that you may have to many mana sources, with the high concentration of lands with a higher concentration of borderpost. With both you have 26 total sources now many on this thread from my experience have opted for higher lands and less borderpost or a higher concentration of lands and border post but I've settled on 23 or 24 mana producing sources. (Not including As Fortold) My last thing to plague you with is as mentioned above that the dredge match up is quite poor and even though it is harder to cast I believe Anger of the Gods will assist you in the second worst match up of dredge, the worst being burn.
I think the monkeys are just too important for this deck. Yes, modern isn't as fast as it used to be, but it is still a fast format. Especially if you are playing the cascade version, you won't be doing much before turn 3 except playing some borderposts. SSG allows us to ramp into early game plays. Most importantly, SSG allows for turn 1 or turn 2 Blood Moon, which just makes some decks fold entirely.
I agree with jenn. SSG is too good in a red-based RB list. Two things it does: 1) accelerate you into an early RB, and 2) reduce your hand size at the time of RB's casting. Since you are playing Chandra, Torch of Defiance, play 4 of them. Otherwise, play 3.
What are your thoughts on As Foretold? I see it as a do-nothing card until the 3rd turn it was cast, wherein you may just hard cast everything you need. I mean, we are not taking advantage of it the first two to three turns it is on the battlefield. Yes, it helps that it can cast RB from hand, but that is too corner case, especially if we are running 3 RBs. I believe to take advantage of As Foretold, the list should be cascade-less to use it on 1-cmc cantrips and removal. Just my two cents.
Well, I never go down to 11 borderposts in any of my RB build. Most of the time I have at least 2 borderposts when I RB, so rebuilding is not a problem. Maybe that is why I do not see its advantage: maybe it does not suit my RB playstyle There might come a time when I can try it, but for now, I'll put it in the backburner.
I have to agree with The Rolling wave (Tsunamii) above, I use it as mana acceleration or in my list with 4 RBs it allows me to draw it and not really care to much. Also my best plays are just like he mentioned is where I can recklessly sac all of my lands knowing that they cant interact with As Fortold. Though the care has been nice for me, I am currently at Three copies and have been considering going down to 2 copies to gain lock pieces or my other copies of Supreme Will.
I run the naya blue as foretold saheeli combo version. It's very solid actually. As to the deck. Rebuttal is there because it's effectively Counterpsell in this deck on turn 2. I get blue mana quite often with saheeli scry, and this version has made me have a lot more success than the nahiri version. The Darksteel is kinda just there but most the time I never get saheeli last ability to pull it out before I win with the combo or Gargadon. But it does help us not get all dependant on the combo or Gargadon. Maybe saheeli is better but still. I've also been considering on the nahiri anyways.then we can run metalwork colossus instead of felidar.but I have found this version to be what we need to do better. I normally don't post my decks like this. I run only 6 sources of black because that's all the deck needs. You have as foretold to play demonic dread for free as well as your 4 black sources in both posts and lands. And then the vessel plays black and buys back your restore balance to cascade again. Felidar is good for this as well cuz you can bring more back to continue to lock again. This is a very control heavy version and doesn't lose very quickly. I beat Affinity 3 games to 1 so far. Infect seems the only issue.
How has Vessel of Endless Rest worked out for you? I almost wonder if you could replace the 2 vessels and the ds colossus with a few Metalwork Colossus. I feel like they would be more effective for you, though admittedly I've never tried a Saheeli variant of RB.
Also, I'll be at the SCG Classic this weekend (couldn't find a team for the Open) playing RB. Here's the list I'm taking:
First of all good luck this weekend! Second how have Culling Scales and Anger of the Gods been out of the board. I've considered using Scales but didn't know how it faired.
First of all good luck this weekend! Second how have Culling Scales and Anger of the Gods been out of the board. I've considered using Scales but didn't know how it faired.
Anger used to be in my main board, but it eventually got moved to the side. However, I don't think I'd ever want to run a 75 without it. The exile clause is just too good.
Culling Scales is...ok. It's currently on the chopping block as far as my sideboard goes, I just haven't found something to replace them with yet.
Jenn: How's Gideon playing? Are you able to cast Keranos most of the games where you've drawn it?
I have found Culling Scales to be of use against a particular deck that I still can't overcome, Abzan Traverse. How do you get by Kataki, Stony Silence, and Surgical Extraction?
I bring in 2 Scales, 2 Wear//Tear, and 2 Timely Reinforcement (Sometimes it's 1/1 w/ Oketra). Drawing an efficient reply for the Kataki is rough. Boarding out Posts as a retort seems stretched.
I'm playing your list essentially, little different removal w/ two spheres. Have you tried out Supreme Will?
People hate me at FNM when RB comes out of it's box. The MD leylines really make people want to stab you, if the complete annihilation of their board didn't already
Jenn: How's Gideon playing? Are you able to cast Keranos most of the games where you've drawn it?
I have found Culling Scales to be of use against a particular deck that I still can't overcome, Abzan Traverse. How do you get by Kataki, Stony Silence, and Surgical Extraction?
I bring in 2 Scales, 2 Wear//Tear, and 2 Timely Reinforcement (Sometimes it's 1/1 w/ Oketra). Drawing an efficient reply for the Kataki is rough. Boarding out Posts as a retort seems stretched.
I'm playing your list essentially, little different removal w/ two spheres. Have you tried out Supreme Will?
People hate me at FNM when RB comes out of it's box. The MD leylines really make people want to stab you, if the complete annihilation of their board didn't already
Gideon is great! I'm rarely unhappy to see him. Keranos does sometimes feel expensive, however he mostly shines in control and midrange matchups, which are the matchups that tend to go longer, so I usually end up getting to five mana. He always gets baorded out against faster decks.
Kataki, Stony Silence, and Surgical are tough. Kataki is the least of my worries, since we have a lot of creature removal in the deck. I always board in Wear/Tear when I expect Stony. All I really have against Surgical is Mistveil Plains and a prayer, lol. I will often board out a post or two if I'm expecting a lot of hate.
I haven't tried Supreme Will yet, but it is on my list of cards to try.
Not to rudely but in on the topic but I must also back up Gideon for he has been wonderful especially against burn, which is just awful. Also on the matter of Supreme Will I was hyped when the card first came out and though I have played with the total amount of Supreme Wills I've always wanted to have them. They are a nice gotcha or just a line that makes people hesitate that can also be used as filtering when needed. Plus they are nice when you really need some hate and don't wanna cut the combo or threats.
Just want to drop my two cents on Supreme Will. It serves three purposes in the deck (as far as personal experience is concerned):
1. Early on, it is a card selection spell, allowing the deck to get what it needs at the current moment, whether it be a land/borderpost, a removal, or a cascade spell. In short, it contributes to more consistent plays, which RB lists struggle due to the deck building limitation/restriction.
2. Late game, it becomes a hard counter (due to RB's land destruction clause), especially with the heavy borderpost builds. It protects our threats from their removal and counters pesky spells aimed at us.
3. It serves as a sideboard flex spot. Because of the counter clause, we can, in additional to our sideboard options, run more hate against things not answered by Restore Balance or their answers against our gameplay. It also allows the deck to have the deck more slots if we need to board in many cards (though there are very few times that we do that). It also helps us dig cards we boarded in.
Early on, players playing UX RB lists opted for Thieves' Fortune due to the card selection alone. Now we have a strictly better version of it, which IMO should be run by any RB list sporting U.
Good feedback. Anyone tinkered with Dead//Gone?? Too linear? I feel like kataki is a real beating, and while there's a few 3 mana options to deal with her, if she comes down following one or two borderposts... beatings abound haha
Just want to drop my two cents on Supreme Will. It serves three purposes in the deck (as far as personal experience is concerned):
1. Early on, it is a card selection spell, allowing the deck to get what it needs at the current moment, whether it be a land/borderpost, a removal, or a cascade spell. In short, it contributes to more consistent plays, which RB lists struggle due to the deck building limitation/restriction.
2. Late game, it becomes a hard counter (due to RB's land destruction clause), especially with the heavy borderpost builds. It protects our threats from their removal and counters pesky spells aimed at us.
3. It serves as a sideboard flex spot. Because of the counter clause, we can, in additional to our sideboard options, run more hate against things not answered by Restore Balance or their answers against our gameplay. It also allows the deck to have the deck more slots if we need to board in many cards (though there are very few times that we do that). It also helps us dig cards we boarded in.
Early on, players playing UX RB lists opted for Thieves' Fortune due to the card selection alone. Now we have a strictly better version of it, which IMO should be run by any RB list sporting U.
You make a very good case for Supreme Will. I would really like to try it, however I am at the point where it is getting hard to test cards because I don't know what to cut. The only thing I've thought about cutting is Keranos. However, I don't want to cut Keranos for SW, because I don't want to reduce my number of closers.
I do want to include supreme will, but I’m really pushing my blue count. I’d remove mistveil plains and move bow of nylea to the sideboard so I can main two of them.
On the matter of cutting cards for other slots. I will say that I recently was worried about my finishers in the list but after I cut Keranos who I thought was doing fine I felt more consistent with more filtering and lock pieces. I loved having him in the deck for that meant I could have my full art steam punk themed alter of Keranos in my deck but personally cutting him for more control or cutting down to two Nahiri's recently it has felt good even though I went from 13 good finishers to 11 the deck has been better at keeping ahead and finishing the game, after a Restore.
On the matter of cutting cards for other slots. I will say that I recently was worried about my finishers in the list but after I cut Keranos who I thought was doing fine I felt more consistent with more filtering and lock pieces. I loved having him in the deck for that meant I could have my full art steam punk themed alter of Keranos in my deck but personally cutting him for more control or cutting down to two Nahiri's recently it has felt good even though I went from 13 good finishers to 11 the deck has been better at keeping ahead and finishing the game, after a Restore.
See, I'm having the opposite issue. The games that I lose, more often than not, are games where I get a lock started with RB, and then sort of fumble trying to find a way to close out the game before my opponent can get out of the lock and rebuild.
See, I'm having the opposite issue. The games that I lose, more often than not, are games where I get a lock started with RB, and then sort of fumble trying to find a way to close out the game before my opponent can get out of the lock and rebuild.
Thus, the need for more digging pieces. And Supreme Will digs 4 cards deep. It is also a reason I run 4 of Cast Out, because not only it is removal, but it has cycling to smooth our draws.
I think the monkeys are just too important for this deck. Yes, modern isn't as fast as it used to be, but it is still a fast format. Especially if you are playing the cascade version, you won't be doing much before turn 3 except playing some borderposts. SSG allows us to ramp into early game plays. Most importantly, SSG allows for turn 1 or turn 2 Blood Moon, which just makes some decks fold entirely.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
What are your thoughts on As Foretold? I see it as a do-nothing card until the 3rd turn it was cast, wherein you may just hard cast everything you need. I mean, we are not taking advantage of it the first two to three turns it is on the battlefield. Yes, it helps that it can cast RB from hand, but that is too corner case, especially if we are running 3 RBs. I believe to take advantage of As Foretold, the list should be cascade-less to use it on 1-cmc cantrips and removal. Just my two cents.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Maindeck 60 / 60
Planeswalkers 4
4x Saheeli Rai
Creatures 8
4x Greater Gargadon
1x Darksteel Colossus
3x Felidar Guardian
Non-Creatures 33 / 33
4x Violent Outburst
2x Demonic Dread
4x Restore Balance
1x Wrath of God
4x As Foretold
2x Blood Moon
4x Fieldmist Borderpost
1x Mistvein Borderpost
1x Veinfire Borderpost
4x Firewild Borderpost
4x Wildfield Borderpost
2x Vessel of Endless Rest
Lands 15 / 15
3x Plains
4x Island
2x Swamp
4x Mountain
2x Forest
Sideboard 15 / 15
4x Wear/Tear
4x Stoic Rebuttal
2x Dismember
3x Beats Within
2x March of the Machines
Also, I'll be at the SCG Classic this weekend (couldn't find a team for the Open) playing RB. Here's the list I'm taking:
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Mistveil Plains
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
Planeswalker
1 Gideon of the Trials
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Enchantment
4 Ardent Plea
2 As Foretold
2 Blood Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Greater Gargadon
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Simian Spirit Guide
Instant
2 Bant Charm
1 Beast Within
4 Violent Outburst
Sorcery
3 Restore Balance
Artifact
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Firewild Borderpost
2 Wildfield Borderpost
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Blood Moon
2 Culling Scales
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Oketra's Last Mercy
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Ricochet Trap
2 Wear / Tear
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
Anger used to be in my main board, but it eventually got moved to the side. However, I don't think I'd ever want to run a 75 without it. The exile clause is just too good.
Culling Scales is...ok. It's currently on the chopping block as far as my sideboard goes, I just haven't found something to replace them with yet.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
I have found Culling Scales to be of use against a particular deck that I still can't overcome, Abzan Traverse. How do you get by Kataki, Stony Silence, and Surgical Extraction?
I bring in 2 Scales, 2 Wear//Tear, and 2 Timely Reinforcement (Sometimes it's 1/1 w/ Oketra). Drawing an efficient reply for the Kataki is rough. Boarding out Posts as a retort seems stretched.
I'm playing your list essentially, little different removal w/ two spheres. Have you tried out Supreme Will?
People hate me at FNM when RB comes out of it's box. The MD leylines really make people want to stab you, if the complete annihilation of their board didn't already
Gideon is great! I'm rarely unhappy to see him. Keranos does sometimes feel expensive, however he mostly shines in control and midrange matchups, which are the matchups that tend to go longer, so I usually end up getting to five mana. He always gets baorded out against faster decks.
Kataki, Stony Silence, and Surgical are tough. Kataki is the least of my worries, since we have a lot of creature removal in the deck. I always board in Wear/Tear when I expect Stony. All I really have against Surgical is Mistveil Plains and a prayer, lol. I will often board out a post or two if I'm expecting a lot of hate.
I haven't tried Supreme Will yet, but it is on my list of cards to try.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
1. Early on, it is a card selection spell, allowing the deck to get what it needs at the current moment, whether it be a land/borderpost, a removal, or a cascade spell. In short, it contributes to more consistent plays, which RB lists struggle due to the deck building limitation/restriction.
2. Late game, it becomes a hard counter (due to RB's land destruction clause), especially with the heavy borderpost builds. It protects our threats from their removal and counters pesky spells aimed at us.
3. It serves as a sideboard flex spot. Because of the counter clause, we can, in additional to our sideboard options, run more hate against things not answered by Restore Balance or their answers against our gameplay. It also allows the deck to have the deck more slots if we need to board in many cards (though there are very few times that we do that). It also helps us dig cards we boarded in.
Early on, players playing UX RB lists opted for Thieves' Fortune due to the card selection alone. Now we have a strictly better version of it, which IMO should be run by any RB list sporting U.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
You make a very good case for Supreme Will. I would really like to try it, however I am at the point where it is getting hard to test cards because I don't know what to cut. The only thing I've thought about cutting is Keranos. However, I don't want to cut Keranos for SW, because I don't want to reduce my number of closers.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
See, I'm having the opposite issue. The games that I lose, more often than not, are games where I get a lock started with RB, and then sort of fumble trying to find a way to close out the game before my opponent can get out of the lock and rebuild.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
Thus, the need for more digging pieces. And Supreme Will digs 4 cards deep. It is also a reason I run 4 of Cast Out, because not only it is removal, but it has cycling to smooth our draws.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR