i like scales cleaning up after that quick balance, but it does seem like the board is a little dense on things for certain matchups and perhaps lacking for others.
has anyone tried dead // gone ?? i'm still searching for a resolution to T2 kataki. if we see white we have to assume Stony Silence, but kataki can be just as bad of a timewalk
i like scales cleaning up after that quick balance, but it does seem like the board is a little dense on things for certain matchups and perhaps lacking for others.
has anyone tried dead // gone ?? i'm still searching for a resolution to T2 kataki. if we see white we have to assume Stony Silence, but kataki can be just as bad of a timewalk
Back on my phone. Haven’t had the chance to resume the analysis on my laptop.
Against lists that board in stony and Kataki, the trick is to play around them. Board out borderposts for your sideboard tech and try to play around them.
I, too, suggest cutting black, which is a big call for me considering black is my favorite color and this is the only deck I play without it. Budget builds with RB are fairly difficult, considering it tends to be a fairly budget deck as it is. I run the Nahiri + Emrakul package myself, which is probably the most expensive package, but there are other viable wincons, like the aforementioned collosus.
I highly recommend beast within. I run two copies main and one in the board. The ability to hit planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments, and other problematic permanents is incredibly powerful. I also recommend bow of nylea and supreme will as utility flex slots. They are both budget and see play in non-budget builds.
Back on my phone. Haven’t had the chance to resume the analysis on my laptop.
Against lists that board in stony and Kataki, the trick is to play around them. Board out borderposts for your sideboard tech and try to play around them.
I, too, suggest cutting black, which is a big call for me considering black is my favorite color and this is the only deck I play without it. Budget builds with RB are fairly difficult, considering it tends to be a fairly budget deck as it is. I run the Nahiri + Emrakul package myself, which is probably the most expensive package, but there are other viable wincons, like the aforementioned collosus.
I highly recommend beast within. I run two copies main and one in the board. The ability to hit planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments, and other problematic permanents is incredibly powerful. I also recommend bow of nylea and supreme will as utility flex slots. They are both budget and see play in non-budget builds.
I'm curious about trying out Bow of Nylea, but I don't think I have room for it in my main board. If I cut the 2 Culling Scales and add a third W/T to my sideboard, I have one flex spot. Do you think it would be worth running just 1 Bow in the side?
Also I forgot to mention with finishers and packages that Eopa was talking about one package that ive heard worked well was Sahelli Cat combo in the artifacts build. Secondly with Kataki and storm running around I like having the 2 Dismember out of side. Thirdly I want some thoughts about playing Drift of Phantasms vs Idyllic Tutor with my list, I with trying to make the change took out my March of the Machines, for that and Leylines are my only enchantments over 3 cmc. Where the Drift is more mana intensive with blue it allows me to fetch side board answers like Wear//Tear or Oketra's Last Mercy. Finally not to drag on this post but I played yesterday in a championship at an LGS that is a compition of the best of the best across formats I placed 5th overall. I went 3-1 with Restore Balance beating Mill, UW control, and Grixis Death Shadow and losing to burn. The highlight of my night was the control matchup which was my opponent tried to Cryptic bouncy my As Fortold and counter my Restore I used Odds//Ends and copied his Cryptic and bounced his Gideon and countering his Cryptic.
Also I forgot to mention with finishers and packages that Eopa was talking about one package that ive heard worked well was Sahelli Cat combo in the artifacts build. Secondly with Kataki and storm running around I like having the 2 Dismember out of side. Thirdly I want some thoughts about playing Drift of Phantasms vs Idyllic Tutor with my list, I with trying to make the change took out my March of the Machines, for that and Leylines are my only enchantments over 3 cmc. Where the Drift is more mana intensive with blue it allows me to fetch side board answers like Wear//Tear or Oketra's Last Mercy. Finally not to drag on this post but I played yesterday in a championship at an LGS that is a compition of the best of the best across formats I placed 5th overall. I went 3-1 with Restore Balance beating Mill, UW control, and Grixis Death Shadow and losing to burn. The highlight of my night was the control matchup which was my opponent tried to Cryptic bouncy my As Fortold and counter my Restore I used Odds//Ends and copied his Cryptic and bounced his Gideon and countering his Cryptic.
Yeah, I noticed Drift in your deck and think it's an interesting addition. I like that, as well as being a tutor, it can come down as a decent blocker, if necessary. Glad it's working out for you!
And congrats on getting 5th! I love hearing about other people's RB success stories!
That’s an interesting inclusion. I’ll have to test it out. I think I may have one sitting in a box somewhere.
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.
That’s an interesting inclusion. I’ll have to test it out. I think I may have one sitting in a box somewhere.
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.
This might be a terrible idea, but I'm considering cutting Mistveil Plains to test the Bow. Obviously, going down to 15 lands is risky, but I'm currently at 10 BPs. Also, the Bow fills a similar niche to Mistveil and though I was once I big supporter of it, I'm finding it's becoming more and more awkward: it comes in tapped, isn't a basic for the BPs, and I sometimes hesitate to cast Blood Moon because I want Mistveil value.
That’s an interesting inclusion. I’ll have to test it out. I think I may have one sitting in a box somewhere.
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.
This might be a terrible idea, but I'm considering cutting Mistveil Plains to test the Bow. Obviously, going down to 15 lands is risky, but I'm currently at 10 BPs. Also, the Bow fills a similar niche to Mistveil and though I was once I big supporter of it, I'm finding it's becoming more and more awkward: it comes in tapped, isn't a basic for the BPs, and I sometimes hesitate to cast Blood Moon because I want Mistveil value.
I already cut my Mistveil. It’s lost a lot of power since the deck’s inception. I vote yes. The bow is easier to cast and activate and let’s you loop RB infinitely by putting RB and cascaders on the bottom of your library. I’ve locked people out of games this way. It also lets you shoot pesky fliers, gain life when you aren’t doing anything, and turns casted Simian Spirit Guides into threats by pumping them up and making them deathtouch attackers.
That’s an interesting inclusion. I’ll have to test it out. I think I may have one sitting in a box somewhere.
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.
This might be a terrible idea, but I'm considering cutting Mistveil Plains to test the Bow. Obviously, going down to 15 lands is risky, but I'm currently at 10 BPs. Also, the Bow fills a similar niche to Mistveil and though I was once I big supporter of it, I'm finding it's becoming more and more awkward: it comes in tapped, isn't a basic for the BPs, and I sometimes hesitate to cast Blood Moon because I want Mistveil value.
I already cut my Mistveil. It’s lost a lot of power since the deck’s inception. I vote yes. The bow is easier to cast and activate and let’s you loop RB infinitely by putting RB and cascaders on the bottom of your library. I’ve locked people out of games this way. It also lets you shoot pesky fliers, gain life when you aren’t doing anything, and turns casted Simian Spirit Guides into threats by pumping them up and making them deathtouch attackers.
Yeah, I certainly see the cards appeal. The only things the "test" will need to answer are 1) is 15 lands to few, and 2) is it worth having just one Bow (though you seem to have success with one Bow, so that's a plus)
has anybody here tries the non blue build?
i dont feel thee blue have much merit other than supreme will based on jenn list.
still not sold on as foretold because if you want to cast stranded restore balance in your hand there is kari zev's expertise (although it gives a creature to your opponent unless you have a suspended gargadon)
by cutting blue the cascade spells feels more streamlined because both uses R (violent outburst,demonic dread).
the bad things about the non blue is you cant dig your library as effective as supreme will, but red have collective defiance and somewhat inferior fateful showdown.
tell me what you think about the non blue version.
btw the only thing that prevented me from trying the blue version is because somehow i dont have any fieldmist borderpost or gideon of the trials
speaking of gideon of the trials i think ajani vengeant fits better on that slot, although the cannot lose emblem is somewhat enticing.
has anybody here tries the non blue build?
i dont feel thee blue have much merit other than supreme will based on jenn list.
still not sold on as foretold because if you want to cast stranded restore balance in your hand there is kari zev's expertise (although it gives a creature to your opponent unless you have a suspended gargadon)
by cutting blue the cascade spells feels more streamlined because both uses R (violent outburst,demonic dread).
the bad things about the non blue is you cant dig your library as effective as supreme will, but red have collective defiance and somewhat inferior fateful showdown.
tell me what you think about the non blue version.
btw the only thing that prevented me from trying the blue version is because somehow i dont have any fieldmist borderpost or gideon of the trials
speaking of gideon of the trials i think ajani vengeant fits better on that slot, although the cannot lose emblem is somewhat enticing.
The borderpost can be replaced with a different one (I assume we're playing black if not blue), so I won't bother talking about that one.
Supreme Will: The most flexible card to remove. Removing removes one of our few ways to play to play reactively and hinders our dig potential. I don't have enough tests under my belt to say much here.
As Foretold: I believe William Shakespeare said it best when the quote "hellith noith." Put simply, this card opens up more options for us with very little cost. In addition to being able to cast our Restore Balances at no cost to us whatsoever, As Foretold stops us from being punished for going all in on a balance. Once it's down for three turns, it really comes online and lets us cast 90% of our spells. Yes, I have used this to hardcast Emrakul. Multiple times. The situation arises.
Ardent Plea: As much as As Foretold was a hell no, this one is increasingly so. If you don't have 8+ cascade spells in the deck, you're chances of winning severely decline. Plea also turns Gargadons into two turn clocks, assuming no life change by the opponent.
Now for the spells you mentioned.
Kari Zev's Expertise: This card requires us to leave something for the opponent and is a dead card against Bogles, combo, and Control matchups. I've tested all the expertises in various builds and Yahenni's was the only that came close to being playable, and it lost its shine when As Foretold was released. This card is also nearly useless if you don't have the balance in hand.
Demonic Dread: Just like Kari Zev, this is useless against Bogles, combo, and Control. This is also the only 3 mana cascade spell with useless text on it. The "cannot block" is irrelevant when we're wiping the board. The only times it would be relevant are fairly niche and involve attacking with a lethal threat into an enemy with 1 blocker and a need to win that turn.
Defiance and Showdown aren't the type of dig we want. When our goal is to keep our hand count low, those two strain our resources and force us to gamble on the luck of the draw rather than plan around our hands. They may be interesting test cards, but they are not replacement for supreme will.
Gideon isn't necessary. I don't run him. Ajani Vengeant was a staple in older lists, but slowly fell out in favor of streamlining the balances. He still sees play in non-post versions of the deck, but I don't see those too often any more. I've been tempted to build one and streamline it just to see how they play in comparison, but I just don't have the time nowadays.
Not too long ago, I debated going nonblue, myself, but it's just too important, despite the few cards in the deck that use that color. I also debated nonwhite once, but I really don't wanna lose my Nahiris. She is my favorite planeswalker, after all (lorewise; possibly cardwise, but I have difficulties choosing favorite cards).
First of I have to agree with epoa about Nahiri she is truly awesome and wins in more than just the war. On the actual topic of what colors to cut I've done way to much testing before I decided to cut black. I love Slaughter Games and Lingering Souls, I still want to go black to black but it never was as consistent. Now I'm basically just Jeskai now. Even that is a stretch for I only play 4 cards that have green and that's just Violent Outburst. Ever since I sacrificed going down the Beast Withins in my build with more D-Spheres it's felt better. I can streamline my mana to be basicly White-Blue with a red splash for Nahiri, Violent Outburst and Garadon. Then the rest is just Easier not to truly worry about color if you just splash. Also to second epoa again blue has been amazing recently with Supreme Will being an all star. As Fortold is amazing if you like to be greedy like myself. The newest addition that has been amazing has been Monastery Seige with has already won me games. Also I've tried the no white build or the no Red build and the only thing to conclude is the both were lack luster though maybe with future printings I may be swayed away from red. (Though it would take a lot.)
I'll also put a vote in for "Jeskai Green" being the best colors for the deck. Blue is really important, in my opinion, and I really don't like Demonic Dread and Kari Zev's Expertise purely because they require a creature to target.
Timota, I get the appeal of cutting back on green for the sake of the mana base, but do you really find Beast Within to be better than Detention Sphere. I ran Sphere in my first build, but between not being instant speed and not permanently getting rid of permanents if your opponent can remove the sphere, I personally think Beast Within is much better.
Originally Jenn I did it more for the use of Idyllic Tutors ability to search for enchantments made the D-Spheres enchantment text more important that the instant speed. Also it has come up in more games than one where the hitting multiple of the threat is relevant, but now that I'm trying Drift of Phantasms I might go back to Beast Within if appears to be better suited for the meta.
When I first started using the card I found myself thinking I would only need to use the Filter mode and wow was I wrong. It's wonderful against all decks that have removal and you have a threat in play or lined up. For I have loved to play Seige next turn Restore them to 1 land then have a Garadon come down and they realize that can't Path it. Also in my build I like it for Gideon becomes a much more prominent and viable threat for I can worry about far less about Path. Secondly the card is one of my new favorites for the fact that if I need to filter a bunch I can be greedy and put it on Khans, where if I'm comfortably set up or am not worried about about filtering for I have what I need I can just play it safe. Also matchups that I normally always want it on Dragons are more than most White lists for I'm mostly enchantments and Path hurts, also mid range or burn for my face hurts from burn and BGx midrange likes to pop things. Where against Tron, Or creature lists like Etron or Humans it makes a lot more sense to me to have it filter most games for all of their removal is abilities. Hope that gives a bit of insight.
I'm happy that I was able to sway your thoughts on Monastery Siege and finding success in using it. People really get blinded by the card and always thought, well it's just a looter effect. But then you factor out that you are a Balance deck and the taxing is too much to handle when lands are getting busted over and over again. Been finding more success against Burn ever since its inclusion to my list.
Ohh don't get me wrong I love the card but still can't seem to beat burn. In my most recent game against them he went T1 Guide into turn two Guide Guide into Turn 3 Guide Eidolon on the play. Then game 2 has Guide into four Destructive Revelrys. ;(
Ohh don't get me wrong I love the card but still can't seem to beat burn. In my most recent game against them he went T1 Guide into turn two Guide Guide into Turn 3 Guide Eidolon on the play. Then game 2 has Guide into four Destructive Revelrys. ;(
Even with main board Leylines, I still think burn is a terrible matchup, haha.
has anyone tried dead // gone ?? i'm still searching for a resolution to T2 kataki. if we see white we have to assume Stony Silence, but kataki can be just as bad of a timewalk
has anyone tried dead // gone ?? i'm still searching for a resolution to T2 kataki. if we see white we have to assume Stony Silence, but kataki can be just as bad of a timewalk
Against lists that board in stony and Kataki, the trick is to play around them. Board out borderposts for your sideboard tech and try to play around them.
I, too, suggest cutting black, which is a big call for me considering black is my favorite color and this is the only deck I play without it. Budget builds with RB are fairly difficult, considering it tends to be a fairly budget deck as it is. I run the Nahiri + Emrakul package myself, which is probably the most expensive package, but there are other viable wincons, like the aforementioned collosus.
I highly recommend beast within. I run two copies main and one in the board. The ability to hit planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments, and other problematic permanents is incredibly powerful. I also recommend bow of nylea and supreme will as utility flex slots. They are both budget and see play in non-budget builds.
I'm curious about trying out Bow of Nylea, but I don't think I have room for it in my main board. If I cut the 2 Culling Scales and add a third W/T to my sideboard, I have one flex spot. Do you think it would be worth running just 1 Bow in the side?
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
Yeah, I noticed Drift in your deck and think it's an interesting addition. I like that, as well as being a tutor, it can come down as a decent blocker, if necessary. Glad it's working out for you!
And congrats on getting 5th! I love hearing about other people's RB success stories!
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
I’ve tested Bow more than any other card (that I’ve focused on testing) and I still am unsure about it. It feels awkward to cast, but it always feels good to have one on the field. It’s never irrelevant.
This might be a terrible idea, but I'm considering cutting Mistveil Plains to test the Bow. Obviously, going down to 15 lands is risky, but I'm currently at 10 BPs. Also, the Bow fills a similar niche to Mistveil and though I was once I big supporter of it, I'm finding it's becoming more and more awkward: it comes in tapped, isn't a basic for the BPs, and I sometimes hesitate to cast Blood Moon because I want Mistveil value.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
I already cut my Mistveil. It’s lost a lot of power since the deck’s inception. I vote yes. The bow is easier to cast and activate and let’s you loop RB infinitely by putting RB and cascaders on the bottom of your library. I’ve locked people out of games this way. It also lets you shoot pesky fliers, gain life when you aren’t doing anything, and turns casted Simian Spirit Guides into threats by pumping them up and making them deathtouch attackers.
Yeah, I certainly see the cards appeal. The only things the "test" will need to answer are 1) is 15 lands to few, and 2) is it worth having just one Bow (though you seem to have success with one Bow, so that's a plus)
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
i dont feel thee blue have much merit other than supreme will based on jenn list.
still not sold on as foretold because if you want to cast stranded restore balance in your hand there is kari zev's expertise (although it gives a creature to your opponent unless you have a suspended gargadon)
by cutting blue the cascade spells feels more streamlined because both uses R (violent outburst,demonic dread).
the bad things about the non blue is you cant dig your library as effective as supreme will, but red have collective defiance and somewhat inferior fateful showdown.
tell me what you think about the non blue version.
btw the only thing that prevented me from trying the blue version is because somehow i dont have any fieldmist borderpost or gideon of the trials
speaking of gideon of the trials i think ajani vengeant fits better on that slot, although the cannot lose emblem is somewhat enticing.
Nonblue means I'd lose Supreme Will, Ardent Plea, As Foretold, and Fieldmist Borderpost.
The borderpost can be replaced with a different one (I assume we're playing black if not blue), so I won't bother talking about that one.
Supreme Will: The most flexible card to remove. Removing removes one of our few ways to play to play reactively and hinders our dig potential. I don't have enough tests under my belt to say much here.
As Foretold: I believe William Shakespeare said it best when the quote "hellith noith." Put simply, this card opens up more options for us with very little cost. In addition to being able to cast our Restore Balances at no cost to us whatsoever, As Foretold stops us from being punished for going all in on a balance. Once it's down for three turns, it really comes online and lets us cast 90% of our spells. Yes, I have used this to hardcast Emrakul. Multiple times. The situation arises.
Ardent Plea: As much as As Foretold was a hell no, this one is increasingly so. If you don't have 8+ cascade spells in the deck, you're chances of winning severely decline. Plea also turns Gargadons into two turn clocks, assuming no life change by the opponent.
Now for the spells you mentioned.
Kari Zev's Expertise: This card requires us to leave something for the opponent and is a dead card against Bogles, combo, and Control matchups. I've tested all the expertises in various builds and Yahenni's was the only that came close to being playable, and it lost its shine when As Foretold was released. This card is also nearly useless if you don't have the balance in hand.
Demonic Dread: Just like Kari Zev, this is useless against Bogles, combo, and Control. This is also the only 3 mana cascade spell with useless text on it. The "cannot block" is irrelevant when we're wiping the board. The only times it would be relevant are fairly niche and involve attacking with a lethal threat into an enemy with 1 blocker and a need to win that turn.
Defiance and Showdown aren't the type of dig we want. When our goal is to keep our hand count low, those two strain our resources and force us to gamble on the luck of the draw rather than plan around our hands. They may be interesting test cards, but they are not replacement for supreme will.
Gideon isn't necessary. I don't run him. Ajani Vengeant was a staple in older lists, but slowly fell out in favor of streamlining the balances. He still sees play in non-post versions of the deck, but I don't see those too often any more. I've been tempted to build one and streamline it just to see how they play in comparison, but I just don't have the time nowadays.
Not too long ago, I debated going nonblue, myself, but it's just too important, despite the few cards in the deck that use that color. I also debated nonwhite once, but I really don't wanna lose my Nahiris. She is my favorite planeswalker, after all (lorewise; possibly cardwise, but I have difficulties choosing favorite cards).
Timota, I get the appeal of cutting back on green for the sake of the mana base, but do you really find Beast Within to be better than Detention Sphere. I ran Sphere in my first build, but between not being instant speed and not permanently getting rid of permanents if your opponent can remove the sphere, I personally think Beast Within is much better.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
I recently have been looking at buying into Restore Balance, as the deck is pretty awesome.
I was wondering what mode of Monastery Siege you find yourself using most, or if both what matchups you find each mode to be better in?
Thanks for all of the discussion and ideas!
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Even with main board Leylines, I still think burn is a terrible matchup, haha.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG