I've managed to 4-0 and 3-1 Dailies with a variant of this deck in the past few weeks (I only get to play in events every now and again). It has a lot of play to it and I really like it so far.
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One question about the deck: Why are all lists playing 3 Spirit Guides and 1 Ritual instead of just 4 Spirit Guides? Whats the reason behind this split?
It's possible that Teachings is a factor, but I've seen several lists (including my own) play 4 Spirit Guides. I really like it for a number of reasons - not least of which is allowing you to burn 1-2 Spirit Guides accelerating out different spells, since you only normally need the two for the red mana in Lightning Storm.
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I agree, the only downside though is that if your opponent hits it with a Thoughtseize, you're toast.
There are two answers to that. Either run a second kill card (I like conflagrate. It's not as good as lightning storm but if they hit one with surgical extraction you don't auto lose), or run a single conjurer's bauble. The bauble puts a discarded lightning storm back on the bottom of your library before you draw it, and when you don't need it it cycles itself away.
I run Lightning Strike and Conflagrate. There is a lot of Jund and UWR in my meta so having both is almost necessary. Conflagrate protects against simply being Thoughtseized into a loss and Lightning Strike allows me to win at instant speed against UWR which is vital. It means they can never afford to tap out and with MD Pacts of Negation they can never afford to only leave one counter spell open.
Has anyone noticed that Vs RG tron, we suffer from turn 3 karn? Without t1 lotus bloom or t2 prism, they can keep us in check because of the mana denial... Any tips?
Given that the obvious tip is to focus on having a prism or bloom in your opening hands, (even t2 bloom is fine if hand has lots of manipulation (e.g 2x Serum, 1x Sleight in hand)
Beyond that it's not really a concern for myself when playing against Tron, since it really has to be T3 Karn, on the play, and even then you can have a surprising amount of counterplay with Prism/Lotus.
E.g At GP:Brisbane I lost to Tron but that was on the play t3 Karn, T4 Karn, T5 Sundering Titan no permanents in play, and even then I had to miss hitting an SSG or Land on my T4 to lose.
On that note I've often wondered how good Pithing Needle as a SB card would be, seems useful for Cranial Plating/Ravager, Karn and Liliana, which are the cards that normally scare me most in respective matchups
I've thought about Pithing Needle myself, but I've never quite put it in. I think it would be a decent addition, though, for precisely the cards you named.
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It seems inconsequential, but I feel that playing 4 SSG + 1 Ritual is better than 4 SSG or 3 SSG + 1 Ritual. Lots of times, I've drawn 2 SSGs, but I can only use one because I need to save at least 3 for Lightning Storm (assuming my lands provide the bare minimum for comboing off). With effectively 5 SSGs, I don't have to worry about this. When I draw 2/4 SSGs, the second is dead, but when I draw 2/5 SSGs, both are usable.
With the addition of the fifth SSG, I cut Gemstone Caverns for a basic Island, since Caverns and SSG have the same function of cheating the clock. I never really liked Cavern anyway; you have to jump through a LOT of hoops (on the draw, exile 1 card, only 1 Cavern in the whole deck) to get it going.
Other than that, the maindeck is pretty tight. I play a Sleight of Hand as the 60th card, but I think it's perfectly fine to have a land (I used Halimar Depths for a while)/Pact of Negation/2nd wincon in that slot.
I play this deck with eight mainboard discard spells (usually Duress and IoK) as well as Coalition Relic on top of the usual Pentad, Lotus Bloom. A miser's Orzhov Signet has helped at times, as well! These inclusions leave you much less susceptible to fringe strategies like Blood Moon and Ghost Quarter that utterly wreck you.
The largest drawback is you rarely race a fast aggro deck, but you no longer punt to faster assembly-required decks like Tron and Living End. 4 Angel's Grace, 3 Unlife is enough redundancy to spare the slots for dig, and the Pact of Negation/Mindbreak mess is avoided entirely in favor of the aforementioned disruption package.
Try it!
...and stop playing Gigadrowse. If you want to hose control, just play Early Frost. It Time Walks other opposition as a bonus!
1) You don't punt to Tron, as Wedges has already said. Tron is notoriously weak to combo decks, and this one is no exception. Relic and Pyroclasm are stone blanks (well, Relic draws them a card, I guess) and the only way they can disrupt the combo is with Karn. Postboard they have Nature's Claim which is only really good against Unlife. If they try to Claim your Prism/Lotus then you just crack it in response and go for the combo, or cast Peer/Teachings for value.
2) Pact is a must. I'm going to guess that you haven't even played it in an actual game and just took it out, because you mentioned Mindbreak Trap in the same line despite Trap being totally useless in this deck. Pact is not a mirror/Storm killer. The whole point of Pact is that it costs 0 mana against any opponent, so you can cast it on the same turn that you combo off.
Sample scenario: You have 6 mana (1 of which is from Boseiju) and AN+Grace in your hand. Your opponent is threatening lethal, but he has enough mana to cast a single counterspell. You cast Grace (split second, so your opponent can't do anything) followed by AN (off Boseiju, so it can't be countered). Both spells resolve and you get your entire library. Now you go for the lethal Lightning Storm...
only to realize that you play 0 Pacts. You've already used up your land drop, so you can't cast discard. Or you play a land, cast discard, and find that your opponent has two counterspells in hand. It gets countered and you lose.
If you play just 2 Pacts in your deck, you can beat 2 counterspells. Most versions play 3.
The other way you cheat on Pacts is this:
Opponent: I cast <some lethal spell>/swing for lethal.
You: In response, Pact of Negation/Slaughter Pact. On my turn, untap, upkeep: while the Pact trigger is on the stack, Angel’s Grace + Ad Nauseam, draw my entire library, kill you.
You can do this whereas other decks like Twin can't, because the entire combo is instant-speed.
3) Early Frost is worse than Gigadrowse. Point 1: Gigadrowse can tap down for as much mana as you sink into it. Frost only taps down 3. If the game goes long (against control, it will), Drowse is better.
What makes Drowse such a good anti-control card is that the opponent has to counter each copy of Gigadrowse individually, which is pretty much impossible. He can counter 1 copy, but the rest will get him.
Alright people, so I'm personally loving this deck and am about to o purchase it. I'm kind of budgted so I'm running the deck fetchless, and that is something interesting I've noticed. By only playing shocks and some all color lands along with tolaria west I have never really had any consistency issues and I think that having more lands in the deck is beneficial in case the opponent keeps a bunch of lands up, I know its rare but still a possibility.
Also, I am definitly a big fan of boseiju, who shelters all, but have had a fair share of problems with it. First, it enters tapped with no way to untap it, this can be problematic as it is a do nothing if cast on the turn comboing off. It taps for colorless, this is probably a smaller problem as occasionaly, not often, I have run into the colorless mana being a factor. Lastly, in playtesting I have come across a situation where paying the 2 life is ot doable, because I'm eitherreally lucky and stuck at one, or have phyrexian unlife and am in the negatives, and this negate boseiju as a mana source. Don't know how much of a problem this is, just some thoughts.
I don't know what people have had success with, but every deck I see is running 22 or 23 lands, my list only runs 21. Also I have no basics, is the blood moon problem there just so bad that basics are a must?
All in all great deck, and I hope to get it IRL and play some tournaments.
Alright people, so I'm personally loving this deck and am about to o purchase it. I'm kind of budgted so I'm running the deck fetchless, and that is something interesting I've noticed. By only playing shocks and some all color lands along with tolaria west I have never really had any consistency issues and I think that having more lands in the deck is beneficial in case the opponent keeps a bunch of lands up, I know its rare but still a possibility.
Also, I am definitly a big fan of boseiju, who shelters all, but have had a fair share of problems with it. First, it enters tapped with no way to untap it, this can be problematic as it is a do nothing if cast on the turn comboing off. It taps for colorless, this is probably a smaller problem as occasionaly, not often, I have run into the colorless mana being a factor. Lastly, in playtesting I have come across a situation where paying the 2 life is ot doable, because I'm eitherreally lucky and stuck at one, or have phyrexian unlife and am in the negatives, and this negate boseiju as a mana source. Don't know how much of a problem this is, just some thoughts.
I don't know what people have had success with, but every deck I see is running 22 or 23 lands, my list only runs 21. Also I have no basics, is the blood moon problem there just so bad that basics are a must?
All in all great deck, and I hope to get it IRL and play some tournaments.
I've never had an issue that happened BECASUE I was playing fetches, but they've
1. thinned my deck
2. shuffled put something I wanted that was previously bottom by serum or sleight
3. added consistency and avoided land destruction from my opponents.
These things are all good in general, but are PARTICULARLY good in combo. if you don't have fetches that's fine, but given the option, I'd play them 100% of the time in here.
I've had the same issues with Boseju as well here and there. its very very good against twin, I've never not liked in there obviously. against UWR it gets tec edged sometime, I've been know to sb in a 2nd one there. against fact agro I definitely sb it out, because of the 2 life issue. but it still taps as a swamp under tomb of yawgmoth, so there's that. i wouldn't take it out of the deck at this point.
Can this deck beat Hide/seek? Or slaughter games? I'm guessing leyline of sanctity or bust?
No-one plays Hide // Seek.
Against Slaughter Games, depending on which deck is playing it, I sideboard differently:
1) If Jund, SB 4 Leyline
2) If Living End, SB 2 Thoughtseize
That list is practically identical to Wedges', except the mana base (no Scars lands).
Spoils is invaluable as the 5th AN, but it causes you to autolose about 1/5 of the time when you cast it (if you name Ad Nauseam and reveal Lightning Storm before the first AN), and a bit more on top of that if you lose too many lands to it. Personally I prefer a third Peer in that slot.
Tutorable with teachings if you are desperate?
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- URx Twin in Modern
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I agree, the only downside though is that if your opponent hits it with a Thoughtseize, you're toast.
Currently playing:
- URx Twin in Modern
#RIPTwinhttp://www.twitch.tv/trei_gamer
There are two answers to that. Either run a second kill card (I like conflagrate. It's not as good as lightning storm but if they hit one with surgical extraction you don't auto lose), or run a single conjurer's bauble. The bauble puts a discarded lightning storm back on the bottom of your library before you draw it, and when you don't need it it cycles itself away.
Given that the obvious tip is to focus on having a prism or bloom in your opening hands, (even t2 bloom is fine if hand has lots of manipulation (e.g 2x Serum, 1x Sleight in hand)
Beyond that it's not really a concern for myself when playing against Tron, since it really has to be T3 Karn, on the play, and even then you can have a surprising amount of counterplay with Prism/Lotus.
E.g At GP:Brisbane I lost to Tron but that was on the play t3 Karn, T4 Karn, T5 Sundering Titan no permanents in play, and even then I had to miss hitting an SSG or Land on my T4 to lose.
On that note I've often wondered how good Pithing Needle as a SB card would be, seems useful for Cranial Plating/Ravager, Karn and Liliana, which are the cards that normally scare me most in respective matchups
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Angel's Grace
2 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Lightning Storm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
2 Peer Through Depths
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gigadrowse
1 Silence
2 Thoughtseize
1 Echoing Truth
1 Path to Exile
1 Patrician's Scorn
1 Steel Sabotage
2 Infest
1 Favor of the Mighty
It seems inconsequential, but I feel that playing 4 SSG + 1 Ritual is better than 4 SSG or 3 SSG + 1 Ritual. Lots of times, I've drawn 2 SSGs, but I can only use one because I need to save at least 3 for Lightning Storm (assuming my lands provide the bare minimum for comboing off). With effectively 5 SSGs, I don't have to worry about this. When I draw 2/4 SSGs, the second is dead, but when I draw 2/5 SSGs, both are usable.
With the addition of the fifth SSG, I cut Gemstone Caverns for a basic Island, since Caverns and SSG have the same function of cheating the clock. I never really liked Cavern anyway; you have to jump through a LOT of hoops (on the draw, exile 1 card, only 1 Cavern in the whole deck) to get it going.
Other than that, the maindeck is pretty tight. I play a Sleight of Hand as the 60th card, but I think it's perfectly fine to have a land (I used Halimar Depths for a while)/Pact of Negation/2nd wincon in that slot.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The largest drawback is you rarely race a fast aggro deck, but you no longer punt to faster assembly-required decks like Tron and Living End. 4 Angel's Grace, 3 Unlife is enough redundancy to spare the slots for dig, and the Pact of Negation/Mindbreak mess is avoided entirely in favor of the aforementioned disruption package.
Try it!
...and stop playing Gigadrowse. If you want to hose control, just play Early Frost. It Time Walks other opposition as a bonus!
2) Pact is a must. I'm going to guess that you haven't even played it in an actual game and just took it out, because you mentioned Mindbreak Trap in the same line despite Trap being totally useless in this deck. Pact is not a mirror/Storm killer. The whole point of Pact is that it costs 0 mana against any opponent, so you can cast it on the same turn that you combo off.
Sample scenario: You have 6 mana (1 of which is from Boseiju) and AN+Grace in your hand. Your opponent is threatening lethal, but he has enough mana to cast a single counterspell. You cast Grace (split second, so your opponent can't do anything) followed by AN (off Boseiju, so it can't be countered). Both spells resolve and you get your entire library. Now you go for the lethal Lightning Storm...
only to realize that you play 0 Pacts. You've already used up your land drop, so you can't cast discard. Or you play a land, cast discard, and find that your opponent has two counterspells in hand. It gets countered and you lose.
If you play just 2 Pacts in your deck, you can beat 2 counterspells. Most versions play 3.
The other way you cheat on Pacts is this:
Opponent: I cast <some lethal spell>/swing for lethal.
You: In response, Pact of Negation/Slaughter Pact. On my turn, untap, upkeep: while the Pact trigger is on the stack, Angel’s Grace + Ad Nauseam, draw my entire library, kill you.
You can do this whereas other decks like Twin can't, because the entire combo is instant-speed.
3) Early Frost is worse than Gigadrowse. Point 1: Gigadrowse can tap down for as much mana as you sink into it. Frost only taps down 3. If the game goes long (against control, it will), Drowse is better.
What makes Drowse such a good anti-control card is that the opponent has to counter each copy of Gigadrowse individually, which is pretty much impossible. He can counter 1 copy, but the rest will get him.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Also, I am definitly a big fan of boseiju, who shelters all, but have had a fair share of problems with it. First, it enters tapped with no way to untap it, this can be problematic as it is a do nothing if cast on the turn comboing off. It taps for colorless, this is probably a smaller problem as occasionaly, not often, I have run into the colorless mana being a factor. Lastly, in playtesting I have come across a situation where paying the 2 life is ot doable, because I'm eitherreally lucky and stuck at one, or have phyrexian unlife and am in the negatives, and this negate boseiju as a mana source. Don't know how much of a problem this is, just some thoughts.
I don't know what people have had success with, but every deck I see is running 22 or 23 lands, my list only runs 21. Also I have no basics, is the blood moon problem there just so bad that basics are a must?
All in all great deck, and I hope to get it IRL and play some tournaments.
I've never had an issue that happened BECASUE I was playing fetches, but they've
1. thinned my deck
2. shuffled put something I wanted that was previously bottom by serum or sleight
3. added consistency and avoided land destruction from my opponents.
These things are all good in general, but are PARTICULARLY good in combo. if you don't have fetches that's fine, but given the option, I'd play them 100% of the time in here.
I've had the same issues with Boseju as well here and there. its very very good against twin, I've never not liked in there obviously. against UWR it gets tec edged sometime, I've been know to sb in a 2nd one there. against fact agro I definitely sb it out, because of the 2 life issue. but it still taps as a swamp under tomb of yawgmoth, so there's that. i wouldn't take it out of the deck at this point.
No-one plays Hide // Seek.
Against Slaughter Games, depending on which deck is playing it, I sideboard differently:
1) If Jund, SB 4 Leyline
2) If Living End, SB 2 Thoughtseize
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Some people play 2 wincons in their deck (e.g. Lightning Storm + Seismic Assault) specifically for situations like these, too.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Spoils is invaluable as the 5th AN, but it causes you to autolose about 1/5 of the time when you cast it (if you name Ad Nauseam and reveal Lightning Storm before the first AN), and a bit more on top of that if you lose too many lands to it. Personally I prefer a third Peer in that slot.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.