Disenchant effects against things like Blood Moon and Leyline, plus path to trigger archive traps are the main things.
Ghostly Prison vs Ensaring Bridge is something I can't decide for sure, Prison has saved me a lot of games against Burn, Affinity and other creature swarm decks, and has great synergy with Orb, but it is useless against decks that cheat fatties into play, and Bridge is just the opposite, besides making visions risky.
I used to play Wall of Omens and the cantrip is the main thing. A 0/4 blocker can help but just a bit, and it won't handle a lot of the attackers like Tasigur, Thought-Knot, Smasher, Angler, fliers and others. The cantrip IS powerful though, drawing into more cards makes a ton of difference. I have included Thought Scour and am loving them just because of that. So Wall of Omens is decent, try it and decide for yourself.
I love the idea of Wall of Shards, I haven't tested it but against Death Shadow seems like a very nice card that can wreck their main attacker if unanswered for a couple of turns. As you said, my main concern with walls is it turns their frequently dead removal into useful, but if you have a crab it will certainly help it stay alive, sooo. I certainly would try it in the sideboard for DS matchups.
I feel Wall of Denial won't be worth it most of the times, being more expensive. It doesn't save crabs from removal, and it can die to edict effects/sweepers anyway. Obviously, I can be missing a lot of things, so test it and post your impressions!
I find it really hard to make up my mind on Fraying Sanity... I feel it will work best in a "combo" build with traumatize, otherwise it feels slow. It is definitely a very good mill card, but it will probably need a deck built around it, a more controlish build with early discard/countermagic.
For the burn style mill I'm currently playing it feels awkward. We can get to mill them fast enough without it and the dead turn playing it (unless Orb is in play).
Let's say it replaces Mind Funeral. You cast Fraying, then mind funeral the next turn, and you're just tied to having played two mind funeral, and will only benefit AFTER that, meaning turn 5 at least. It can help speed up and close a game with 2 Orbs or stuff like that, but a lot of times it will be equivalent to another copy of a mill spell, and at 3 mana, it is more expensive than most of our mill spells.
As I said, I can't make up my mind, lol. I'm definitely excited about it and will test with it for a loooong time, haha.
I quite like your list and reasoning, xsoulwrecked.
Although I'd want to try to find space for at least 3 Mesmerizing Orbs. On the one Hand, some sort of untargeted Mill is needed to have a slight chance of winning against a Leyline, and Orb is still a good 2-drop that does not hurt having on the board even before Sanity. It's also fun how it messes up their Willingness to alpha strike in the late game
I find it really hard to make up my mind on Fraying Sanity... I feel it will work best in a "combo" build with traumatize, otherwise it feels slow. It is definitely a very good mill card, but it will probably need a deck built around it, a more controlish build with early discard/countermagic.
I think that's the key to making it work. Before Fraying Sanity, our ideal first 3 turns would have been Land + Hedron Crab, Fetch Land + Glimpse, Fetch Land + Mind Funeral. Milling 22 + whatever Mind Funeral milled + a potential Archive Trap. With Fraying Sanity in your starting hand though, you'd try to hold your mill spells until you dropped it on turn 3. You'll maybe still play the turn 1 Hedron Crab, but our ideal turn 2 play suddenly becomes twice as effective on turn 4.
So what do we do on turn 2, if we don't play Glimpse yet? More cheap interaction.
Yes, we have Fatal Push, yes, the Esper version has Path to Exile, but since we have access to one of Moderns currently strongest effects, why not include Discard? Some combination of Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize.
If you play Crypt Incursion main, you can probably afford 2 Thoughtseize, otherwise I'd just include a playset of IOK. Turn 1 IOK, target opponents removal spell or threat, turn 2 Crab + Land, leave 1 mana open for Push or Path, Turn 3 Fetch Land + Fraying Sanity, Turn 4 Glimpse (or Mind Funeral) + Visions of Beyond to keep us fueled. Milling 35 safe (or in case of Mind Funeral 15+ twice whatever Mind Funeral hit) + a potential Archive Trap.
Another option for turn 2 would be cheap counterspells. I'm not a big fan of the idea, because Spell Snare is too narrow in the time of Death's Shadow while Spell Pierce and Mana Leak are only good on turn 2 but are really bad topdecks later in the game.
All in all, I think Fraying Sanity gives us a quicker kill in most games. We could always kill quickly if we got lucky on Archive Traps, but Fraying Sanity might give us the consistency to close out games by turn 4 or 5 even without hitting multiple Archive Traps.
The deck I have in mind looks something like this:
It's late here, so maybe I'm talking nonsense, but please let me know your thoughts on it.
I agree with LordHelmchen that orbs should find a place. 4 Push and 3 Extraction main deck seem too much and are where I would make the cuts for 4 Orbs.
Ideally turn 4 after Fraying should be double mill spell/Orb (effectively cuadruple, wow, it sounds sooo nice) so Breaking is looking better than before. I may end up removing mind funerals for some cantrips to fuel our hand, or even Serum Visions to smooth our play.
I think that Fraying Sanity can not be inserted in more than x2,cause in turn 3 you would prefer cast mill spell to grow graveyard to use Visions of Beyond when you had a bad 1st hand, or use Surgical Extraction expecially vs combo deck or tron. I also think that 20 lands are few, in particular if we are using 20 lands we need more cards to draw ( Thought Scour for example, at least in x3). Personally i would prefer a different list ( -2 Fatal Push, -1 Fraying Sanity and ... -4 Inquisition of Kozilek, for example), i see more usefull to insert more "draw" drop (Thought Scour) or creature ( Wall of Omens) too.
In my opinion, Fraying Sanity adds too much consistency to be playing less than 3 copies, I'm even considering cutting a Mind Funeral for the full playset. The IOK go along with the different turn 3 play, so if you're not relying on Fraying Sanity as much, it's fine dropping them.
With the manabese, I've always got along fine with 20 lands and 5 cmc3 spells. I started with 22 on my old list and went down to 21, but I got flooded too often and most of our deck only costs 1 or 2 mana, so I ended up with 20.
In my old build, I experimented with 3 Thought Scour and felt they were underwhelming, now I'm considering adding them again for more gas + each one mills 4 with Fraying Sanity out. Especially when playing with Thought Scour, 20 lands should be fine.
Based on the comments so far, I've revised my original deck proposition and have ended up with this list.
In the description, I've added my thoughts on the card choices and the ideal first 4 turns, milling up to 73 cards. Even without hitting an Archive Trap it's 60 cards milled, so a turn 4 kill.
Please continue to tell me your thoughts on it!
I would switch the Crypt incursions with the Surgicals for maindeck/sideboard.
Crypt Incursions make several of our bad matchups pretty decent. Goblins has been a very good match up for me for example. I have incursions that are almost gg since they win A TON of life, and then Ghostly Prisons after sideboard that just kill them unless they draw incredibly explosive hands and I don't draw removal nor incursions (which I make sure to mulligan to if necessary).
Extirpate/Surgical has always been a hard one for me. I've had surgical fizzle to snapcasters and such and hated it, and I've also have moments of milling a key combo piece and not being able to extract it until next turn because of no mana.
For now I've been using Extirpate mostly, the split second has been more valuable than the free spell, and my life total is already taking too many hits from fetches+shocks.
I agree that Manic Scribe in the Fraying lists is interesting. The 0/3 is truly a nice mini wall than can save 2-4 life points. The thing is, unless you hit Orbs, with no delirium he is pretty poor, so I'm inclined to think he will not be worth it. We have a lot of more consistent options.
20 lands has been the sweet spot for me as well, our curve is very low, and I can still get to 5 eventually if the game stalls to hard cast an Archive Trap.
Now Archive Traps have been kind of dissapointing lately, I end up sideboarding a couple out g2 unless playing against a heavy fetch deck. People are picking up on it and not falling for path or ghost quarter, and it makes it a pretty dead card in the early game.
Mind funeral is the main candidate for getting the cut for Fraying Sanity, since I think double mill spell/Orb on turn 4 should be our goal kill. I like the idea of discard for T1-2 disruption, definitely some Thought Scours, 4 Path-2 Push, and maybe some Remands, drawing that extra card makes a lot of difference.
Edit: Almost forgot to say... I will also consider going UB instead of Esper. While losing Path (and several sideboard options) will hurt, I think a lighter mana base can make room for some decent Desert tricks, and allow us to be more comfortable with Thoughtseize or Surgical Extraction. Main concern with this are Leylines of Sanctity though...
Fraying Sanity. It's been on our minds. We're crazy for it. But does it actually work?
The first consensus is that no, it is too slow. Turn 3 is too late in the game. My thoughts then turn to Turn 2. If we can get Fraying Sanity out turn 2, can it make a difference?
That forces a major shift in my thinking, because it brings Orb into play. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
If we want to have Fraying Sanity out turn 2, we need mana ramp. And for Ramp, we are going green. Birds of Paradise, of course, but I don't like it. It doesn't really do anything more than give us an additional mana on turn 2. How about Sakura-Tribe Scout? Now we have a creature that drops an additional land each turn. This works really well with card draw like Visions of Beyond. And it ensures we won't be sitting with a useless Ensnaring Bridge due to a hand full of lands. If they Path it, we get the land we were after anyway, a free fetch.
Best of all, we hit turn 3 with a plethora of options. We'll have as much as 5 mana, meaning we can play two 2 drop mill spells, and an Orb. Or Ensnaring Bridge and a CMC 2 mill spell. We have not lost any tempo from playing Fraying Sanity. We're really hitting them hard, right at their crucial juncture.
So what is the cost of Going Green?
Clearly we'll need to grab a green mana, most likely Overgrown Tomb or Breeding Pool. Something we can fetch. Just one land will do. The harder part is configuring the right number of Sakura-Tribe Scouts. Personally, I'd be inclined to run 4, but that's 4 cards that have to come out. Also under question is whether 4 is enough. Sacrificing our T1 play to ramp in green puts us on turn 5 while they are still on turn 3. It just might be worth it. Just beware if they Push rather than Path.
Fraying Sanity. It's been on our minds. We're crazy for it. But does it actually work?
The first consensus is that no, it is too slow. Turn 3 is too late in the game. My thoughts then turn to Turn 2. If we can get Fraying Sanity out turn 2, can it make a difference?
That forces a major shift in my thinking, because it brings Orb into play. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
If we want to have Fraying Sanity out turn 2, we need mana ramp. And for Ramp, we are going green. Birds of Paradise, of course, but I don't like it. It doesn't really do anything more than give us an additional mana on turn 2. How about Sakura-Tribe Scout? Now we have a creature that drops an additional land each turn. This works really well with card draw like Visions of Beyond. And it ensures we won't be sitting with a useless Ensnaring Bridge due to a hand full of lands. If they Path it, we get the land we were after anyway, a free fetch.
Best of all, we hit turn 3 with a plethora of options. We'll have as much as 5 mana, meaning we can play two 2 drop mill spells, and an Orb. Or Ensnaring Bridge and a CMC 2 mill spell. We have not lost any tempo from playing Fraying Sanity. We're really hitting them hard, right at their crucial juncture.
So what is the cost of Going Green?
Clearly we'll need to grab a green mana, most likely Overgrown Tomb or Breeding Pool. Something we can fetch. Just one land will do. The harder part is configuring the right number of Sakura-Tribe Scouts. Personally, I'd be inclined to run 4, but that's 4 cards that have to come out. Also under question is whether 4 is enough. Sacrificing our T1 play to ramp in green puts us on turn 5 while they are still on turn 3. It just might be worth it. Just beware if they Push rather than Path.
The mana ramp approach would be a completely different one for me, and should focus on Fraying sanity + Traumatize rather than all the other mill spells.
Depending on having a Scout + a fetch + 2 more lands to actually make use of it the following turn + Fraying sanity to cast it is hardly reliable if the main plan is to cast it t2.
If you only need 1 mill spell and a Fraying Sanity to win, then you have room for more mana dorks, countermagic, etc... and can pull it off reliably, heck, it might even be a better deck! But it is a completely different deck.
I played against a UR mill deck with Fraying Sanity online yesterday. They had some rituals and simian spirit guides to push an early blood moon, and then fraying sanity and traumatize as finishers. The deck was far from polished/good and seemed to win more on the "free" wins of blood moon than on sanity, but still, it was a different approach worth mentioning.
Now there is something I had not thought of. UG Traumatize? I think it has merit. The all in Traumatize plan can work, esp since it is easy to protect. Krosan Grip is, of course, a death knell.
The key is running some counterspells, since you can drop Traumatize as early as turn 3.
Just faced that card online, and if you can get the enchant to stick (Turn 2) and follow up with 2 of the bigger mill's, its over. I had very few cards, very quickly.
What about instead of going all in on Traumatize and changing almost everything about the deck. What if we add simian spirit guides to UB mill. All we are looking for is a way to cheat out fraying sanity. I do not think that 3 mana is to slow as modern as started to slow down just a bit. Grixis shadow over Jund shadow, eldrazi tron does not win turn 3. Infect is more or less gone, dredge is slowed down though we do help it. living end, Ad Nauseam and storm take time to set up though with good draws they can win turn three. If we can play mill on turns 1 and/or 2, turn 3 sanity turn 4 we can win.
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Modern CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard GRGR Pummeler
I've been trying both version just adding in into my esper build and trying out a traumatize build and what I found out is the traumatize build can be thrown off very easy with hate and discard and the deck feels a little unreliable at times were in our normal builds it's a bomb that can end things easily. Yes our turn 3 maybe underwhelming at tims but if you already have a crab and it orb in play you don't skip a beat.
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Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
So, around 10 matches in with UB Fraying Sanity, I'll upload the decklist I've been trying later today and post it.
Edit: Here it is
So far it feels VERY similar to my Esper Build (This one) resultwise.
I'm replacing the mind funerals with Fraying Sanity, going -4 Crabs for 4 Inquisitions (creatureless has been great so far, 2 opponents commented on how many dead cards they had against me). The -4 Paths have become 2 more Pushes for 4 total, and 2 Extirpates main (with discard, maybe Surgical Extraction can be the best choice, I've been enjoying Split Second from extirpate a lot, but t1 discard+extraction sounds very nice).
Having 4 discard spells and 2 extirpates/extractions maindeck there's been several matches where I was able to work with close to perfect information throughout the match and that is very powerful.
Fraying Sanity has been nice, but I can't say it has been better than Mind Funeral for sure.
When it has come down t3, then it has probably been better, but drawing it later can be bad when you want that extra mill spell to enable visions of beyond or shelldock, or a bigger crypt incursion.
So far I only had 2 matches with the perfect t3 Sanity, t4 double mill kill. And 2 games with double Sanity, now that's incredibly powerful. Any spell I drew at that point was brutal.
I think Shelldocks are a bit better with Fraying Sanity, because 1 mill spell or Orb + 1 mill post Sanity usually already enables them, and I've finished multiple games with the stowed away card.
I went UB because I wanted to use Ipnu Rivulet (the desert) as well. They've been ok mostly, a bit more painful than shock lands in the long run, but they helped me get there in one or two matches.
Has anyone tried bringing in countermagic instead of discard?
Anybody has a better answer than Set Adrift or some bounce for leylines? (in UB, obviously Esper has plenty)
I've been trying both version just adding in into my esper build and trying out a traumatize build and what I found out is the traumatize build can be thrown off very easy with hate and discard and the deck feels a little unreliable at times were in our normal builds it's a bomb that can end things easily. Yes our turn 3 maybe underwhelming at tims but if you already have a crab and it orb in play you don't skip a beat.
Please let me know how that is working, it was really hard to get rid of the crabs, but I feel without some more early disruption Fraying Sanity would be too hard a lot of the times, being potentially a dead turn.
Of course, I would love to t1 Crab, t2 Orb, t3 Fraying Sanity, t4 Glimpse + Breaking consistenly, but I think too often we would miss at least one part of that progression, and an early threat will kill us.
With some discard in there, I usually take out their main threat to our plan and can play with a lot more information to avoid hitting a counter, or play glimpse before orb to get a bigger early Incursion since he'll be aggroing hard, extract some key discarded card and stuff like that.
I really like what discard brings into the deck so far, anybody can think of a better card to replace? Thought Scour has been AWESOME as well, I never gave it credit until I played it.
Regarding the Traumatize build, I won't even test it, I feel it's a completely different deck, just one more combo of the multiple ones available, and not a particularly good one at that.
I built a deck to go UG as I mentioned above.
After tinkering with it for an hour or so, it went from a UG Fraying Sanity deck to not having Fraying Sanity at all. I'm still perfecting the lands, but it seems rather potent.
I think a couple Spell Pierce or some type of counter spell is very important to have in the sideboard because there are a number of decks where Crypt Incursion, Fatal Push, Path to Exile etc... are just awful cards
So, Fraying Sanity seems to be the topic of discussion. I'll weigh in by saying it is ABSOLUTELY the truth IF you are not in a tempo match. Does very little on it's own, we've all agreed on that. But if it can stick and then get some support (let's say from a Hedron Crab or Mesmeric Orb then it gets deadly super quick. My opinion thus far is that it's a 3-of.
More of my opinions:
1 - You're talking about going Hedron Crabless? What the hell is wrong with you people?!? Fetchlands and crabs do easily 40% of the heavy lifting. Get on the crab train, folks!
2 - I hate Mind Funeral. Hate it. Inconsistent. Seems to want to whiff ONLY when the whole game is on the line. I have moved on to Startled Awake and have found it to be an appropriate curve-topper.
3 - I get the whole targeted discard and then extract angle, but I don't think it's smart. Especially in this meta. Yeah, you blank the occasional deck on the spot. But more often than not you've wasted two cards on taking out one of seven threats that deck is packing. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek and Extirpate don't deserve mainboard slots. Surgical Extraction is a maybe.
4 - Where the hell are all the Jace's Phantasms??? Card is a house. In a void, it's a 5/5 flying wall of pain. Everyone else here is talking 3 cmc walls that don't do half of what phantasm does. AND HE BEATS DOWN. How many games have I won to a random stingray ass-whoopin'? A whole bunch.
I'm obviously bringing an older version of the deck to the table, but the fundamentals seem to have been tossed to the wayside in the name of new hotness. I am overjoyed to entertain dissenting opinions. But come on, people. Let's make a deck that can handle the BS that the meta is throwing at us right now.
Basically, in a perfect world you land a Scout T1, and ramp to 3 mana turn 2, when you lay down Coralhelm. T3, you drop Hedron Crab, using the untap trigger on Coralhelm, abuse Scout to mill your opponent out with 2 bouncelands. You can do it with just 1, and maybe that's what I should aim for, taking out the other 4 and removing the Amulet?
It has amazing resiliency, because though the Scout might be unprotected turn 3 when you are tapped out for Coralhelm, if they remove it, you can drop another on T4, as the only other card you need is Crab. That gives you mana to protect it until T5.
It's a mix of Scapeshift and Splinter Twin decks adapted to mill (Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch were on the shortlist of cards) in assembling a combo, and then unleashing it at the right time.
A lot of control to defeat their attempts to remove Scout. Peek, because I felt it was more important to see what their hand held and make sure it is safe to go off than it was to scry 2. It is a less flexible Gitaxian Probe. You can run Serum Visions if you prefer. Thought Scour for the pure mill. Mix and match to taste.
No Visions of Beyond, because you do not mill your opponent to 20 cards in graveyard. You mill them out in one go. This deck does need card draw though. Perhaps the Harrow can go?
Most of all, it needs the mana base tuned to perfection. I hesitate to run too many fetchlands, because they are not used for milling, and being an all in strategy, we are wide open to attacks, so life total may be important if we don't go off T3.
So, Fraying Sanity seems to be the topic of discussion. I'll weigh in by saying it is ABSOLUTELY the truth IF you are not in a tempo match. Does very little on it's own, we've all agreed on that. But if it can stick and then get some support (let's say from a Hedron Crab or Mesmeric Orb then it gets deadly super quick. My opinion thus far is that it's a 3-of.
More of my opinions:
1 - You're talking about going Hedron Crabless? What the hell is wrong with you people?!? Fetchlands and crabs do easily 40% of the heavy lifting. Get on the crab train, folks!
2 - I hate Mind Funeral. Hate it. Inconsistent. Seems to want to whiff ONLY when the whole game is on the line. I have moved on to Startled Awake and have found it to be an appropriate curve-topper.
3 - I get the whole targeted discard and then extract angle, but I don't think it's smart. Especially in this meta. Yeah, you blank the occasional deck on the spot. But more often than not you've wasted two cards on taking out one of seven threats that deck is packing. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek and Extirpate don't deserve mainboard slots. Surgical Extraction is a maybe.
4 - Where the hell are all the Jace's Phantasms??? Card is a house. In a void, it's a 5/5 flying wall of pain. Everyone else here is talking 3 cmc walls that don't do half of what phantasm does. AND HE BEATS DOWN. How many games have I won to a random stingray ass-whoopin'? A whole bunch.
I'm obviously bringing an older version of the deck to the table, but the fundamentals seem to have been tossed to the wayside in the name of new hotness. I am overjoyed to entertain dissenting opinions. But come on, people. Let's make a deck that can handle the BS that the meta is throwing at us right now.
1 & 4 - I LOVED Jace's Phantasm, but testing has been pretty clear on it not being good enough. I like it so much I put together an even jankier build with mill/beats combined, using Wight of Precint Six, Phantasm and some other hitters as well, haha.
The point is, it can very often be a dead draw when you need to keep milling. It also turns on creature removal cards that are otherwise just dead cards in opponent's hand.
Which brings me to why I am trying to go Crabless with Fraying Sanity. I don't even question Crab being a great card, I mean, 2 Crabs down unchecked for a couple of turns is almost gg. But they very often are just removed, and as I said, they give value to paths, pushes, dismembers and so many other creature removal cards that are otherwise dead.
I've liked it so far, probably in a similar way of how much I like the Esper more "traditional" version with Crabs, I have not noticed a big difference so far, other than weirder sideboard cards against leylines/bloodmoons (but I can up my basics count a bit in UB, so bloodmoon is not gg).
I haven't tested the walls, mainly because of this creatureless approach. I don't think they're good enough anyway. Wall of Shards could be decent sb against death shadow, making shadows useless AND blocking any other creature, but it still dies to push... Omens is a cantrip, so that is worth something, but as I said, I think more mill is best, and then crypt incursion to get that extra life if needed.
I don't run Mind funerals anymore, but I liked the card. I have milled +15 a lot of times, and only once hit the awful 4 cards milled, haha. I think I would rather play it than Startled awake, but haven't tried startled awake so it's just what I think.
Discard/Extract is not a plan, discard to disrupt early game is, for sure. And extract is way more powerful in mill than in any other deck. I leave all extraction effects in the sideboard in Esper Mill, since I use more removal and Crabs, and no discard, but in UB I've left 2 extraction effects maindeck and am happy with it for now. You don't need to wreck a deck for it to be valuable, taking any useful piece is great, and the information you get of looking at the whole deck and their hand is VERY good. Discard helps in that you know cards you can hit in their hand as well, so you don't have card disadvantage after casting it.
Surgical/Extirpate I've already went over, with so many snapcasters, counters and graveyard hate around, I'm prefering Extirpate now, but I can certainly see how that's not the case for other people.
I agree on 3x Fraying Sanity (if playing it), but I've considered going to 4 after getting 2 down in the same match, haha. 1 Glimpse and they were dead. I don't think only 1 or 2 copies are good.
Come on guys, post results, decklists, I want to hear ideas
If you want to go creatureless, you need Mesmeric Orb as a main mill engine. Suddenly, Fraying Sanity T3 is a good play. Let me go make a quick list.
4 Ghost Quarter
15 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Archive Trap
2 Cancel
2 Dispel
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fraying Sanity
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Mind Sculpt
2 Negate
4 Tome Scour
3 Chronic Flooding
2 Visions of Beyond
This mono-blue mill list is 55 cards, and 20 lands giving you 5 flex spots. Add more counters, or change the mana base to add black for Surgical Extraction and/or Extirpate, run another land for Engulf the Shore, whatever you wish.
EDIT: Almost forgot, there's a big downside with Fraying Sanity and Archive Traps/Fetches.
At the end step they let the Fraying Sanity trigger happen, and they can fetch after that. Then you're left with trapping for 13 for free, but no doubling up, or letting it pass.
So don't expect doubling those 13 easily...
Ghostly Prison vs Ensaring Bridge is something I can't decide for sure, Prison has saved me a lot of games against Burn, Affinity and other creature swarm decks, and has great synergy with Orb, but it is useless against decks that cheat fatties into play, and Bridge is just the opposite, besides making visions risky.
I used to play Wall of Omens and the cantrip is the main thing. A 0/4 blocker can help but just a bit, and it won't handle a lot of the attackers like Tasigur, Thought-Knot, Smasher, Angler, fliers and others. The cantrip IS powerful though, drawing into more cards makes a ton of difference. I have included Thought Scour and am loving them just because of that. So Wall of Omens is decent, try it and decide for yourself.
I love the idea of Wall of Shards, I haven't tested it but against Death Shadow seems like a very nice card that can wreck their main attacker if unanswered for a couple of turns. As you said, my main concern with walls is it turns their frequently dead removal into useful, but if you have a crab it will certainly help it stay alive, sooo. I certainly would try it in the sideboard for DS matchups.
I feel Wall of Denial won't be worth it most of the times, being more expensive. It doesn't save crabs from removal, and it can die to edict effects/sweepers anyway. Obviously, I can be missing a lot of things, so test it and post your impressions!
I find it really hard to make up my mind on Fraying Sanity... I feel it will work best in a "combo" build with traumatize, otherwise it feels slow. It is definitely a very good mill card, but it will probably need a deck built around it, a more controlish build with early discard/countermagic.
For the burn style mill I'm currently playing it feels awkward. We can get to mill them fast enough without it and the dead turn playing it (unless Orb is in play).
Let's say it replaces Mind Funeral. You cast Fraying, then mind funeral the next turn, and you're just tied to having played two mind funeral, and will only benefit AFTER that, meaning turn 5 at least. It can help speed up and close a game with 2 Orbs or stuff like that, but a lot of times it will be equivalent to another copy of a mill spell, and at 3 mana, it is more expensive than most of our mill spells.
As I said, I can't make up my mind, lol. I'm definitely excited about it and will test with it for a loooong time, haha.
Although I'd want to try to find space for at least 3 Mesmerizing Orbs. On the one Hand, some sort of untargeted Mill is needed to have a slight chance of winning against a Leyline, and Orb is still a good 2-drop that does not hurt having on the board even before Sanity. It's also fun how it messes up their Willingness to alpha strike in the late game
I agree with LordHelmchen that orbs should find a place. 4 Push and 3 Extraction main deck seem too much and are where I would make the cuts for 4 Orbs.
Ideally turn 4 after Fraying should be double mill spell/Orb (effectively cuadruple, wow, it sounds sooo nice) so Breaking is looking better than before. I may end up removing mind funerals for some cantrips to fuel our hand, or even Serum Visions to smooth our play.
A lot of testing ahead, that's for sure!
I would switch the Crypt incursions with the Surgicals for maindeck/sideboard.
Crypt Incursions make several of our bad matchups pretty decent. Goblins has been a very good match up for me for example. I have incursions that are almost gg since they win A TON of life, and then Ghostly Prisons after sideboard that just kill them unless they draw incredibly explosive hands and I don't draw removal nor incursions (which I make sure to mulligan to if necessary).
Extirpate/Surgical has always been a hard one for me. I've had surgical fizzle to snapcasters and such and hated it, and I've also have moments of milling a key combo piece and not being able to extract it until next turn because of no mana.
For now I've been using Extirpate mostly, the split second has been more valuable than the free spell, and my life total is already taking too many hits from fetches+shocks.
I agree that Manic Scribe in the Fraying lists is interesting. The 0/3 is truly a nice mini wall than can save 2-4 life points. The thing is, unless you hit Orbs, with no delirium he is pretty poor, so I'm inclined to think he will not be worth it. We have a lot of more consistent options.
20 lands has been the sweet spot for me as well, our curve is very low, and I can still get to 5 eventually if the game stalls to hard cast an Archive Trap.
Now Archive Traps have been kind of dissapointing lately, I end up sideboarding a couple out g2 unless playing against a heavy fetch deck. People are picking up on it and not falling for path or ghost quarter, and it makes it a pretty dead card in the early game.
Mind funeral is the main candidate for getting the cut for Fraying Sanity, since I think double mill spell/Orb on turn 4 should be our goal kill. I like the idea of discard for T1-2 disruption, definitely some Thought Scours, 4 Path-2 Push, and maybe some Remands, drawing that extra card makes a lot of difference.
Edit: Almost forgot to say... I will also consider going UB instead of Esper. While losing Path (and several sideboard options) will hurt, I think a lighter mana base can make room for some decent Desert tricks, and allow us to be more comfortable with Thoughtseize or Surgical Extraction. Main concern with this are Leylines of Sanctity though...
The first consensus is that no, it is too slow. Turn 3 is too late in the game. My thoughts then turn to Turn 2. If we can get Fraying Sanity out turn 2, can it make a difference?
That forces a major shift in my thinking, because it brings Orb into play. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
If we want to have Fraying Sanity out turn 2, we need mana ramp. And for Ramp, we are going green. Birds of Paradise, of course, but I don't like it. It doesn't really do anything more than give us an additional mana on turn 2. How about Sakura-Tribe Scout? Now we have a creature that drops an additional land each turn. This works really well with card draw like Visions of Beyond. And it ensures we won't be sitting with a useless Ensnaring Bridge due to a hand full of lands. If they Path it, we get the land we were after anyway, a free fetch.
Best of all, we hit turn 3 with a plethora of options. We'll have as much as 5 mana, meaning we can play two 2 drop mill spells, and an Orb. Or Ensnaring Bridge and a CMC 2 mill spell. We have not lost any tempo from playing Fraying Sanity. We're really hitting them hard, right at their crucial juncture.
So what is the cost of Going Green?
Clearly we'll need to grab a green mana, most likely Overgrown Tomb or Breeding Pool. Something we can fetch. Just one land will do. The harder part is configuring the right number of Sakura-Tribe Scouts. Personally, I'd be inclined to run 4, but that's 4 cards that have to come out. Also under question is whether 4 is enough. Sacrificing our T1 play to ramp in green puts us on turn 5 while they are still on turn 3. It just might be worth it. Just beware if they Push rather than Path.
The mana ramp approach would be a completely different one for me, and should focus on Fraying sanity + Traumatize rather than all the other mill spells.
Depending on having a Scout + a fetch + 2 more lands to actually make use of it the following turn + Fraying sanity to cast it is hardly reliable if the main plan is to cast it t2.
If you only need 1 mill spell and a Fraying Sanity to win, then you have room for more mana dorks, countermagic, etc... and can pull it off reliably, heck, it might even be a better deck! But it is a completely different deck.
I played against a UR mill deck with Fraying Sanity online yesterday. They had some rituals and simian spirit guides to push an early blood moon, and then fraying sanity and traumatize as finishers. The deck was far from polished/good and seemed to win more on the "free" wins of blood moon than on sanity, but still, it was a different approach worth mentioning.
The key is running some counterspells, since you can drop Traumatize as early as turn 3.
Spirits
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
Im an active trader on MOTL my handle there is Vito
Edit: Here it is
So far it feels VERY similar to my Esper Build (This one) resultwise.
I'm replacing the mind funerals with Fraying Sanity, going -4 Crabs for 4 Inquisitions (creatureless has been great so far, 2 opponents commented on how many dead cards they had against me). The -4 Paths have become 2 more Pushes for 4 total, and 2 Extirpates main (with discard, maybe Surgical Extraction can be the best choice, I've been enjoying Split Second from extirpate a lot, but t1 discard+extraction sounds very nice).
Having 4 discard spells and 2 extirpates/extractions maindeck there's been several matches where I was able to work with close to perfect information throughout the match and that is very powerful.
Fraying Sanity has been nice, but I can't say it has been better than Mind Funeral for sure.
When it has come down t3, then it has probably been better, but drawing it later can be bad when you want that extra mill spell to enable visions of beyond or shelldock, or a bigger crypt incursion.
So far I only had 2 matches with the perfect t3 Sanity, t4 double mill kill. And 2 games with double Sanity, now that's incredibly powerful. Any spell I drew at that point was brutal.
I think Shelldocks are a bit better with Fraying Sanity, because 1 mill spell or Orb + 1 mill post Sanity usually already enables them, and I've finished multiple games with the stowed away card.
I went UB because I wanted to use Ipnu Rivulet (the desert) as well. They've been ok mostly, a bit more painful than shock lands in the long run, but they helped me get there in one or two matches.
Has anyone tried bringing in countermagic instead of discard?
Anybody has a better answer than Set Adrift or some bounce for leylines? (in UB, obviously Esper has plenty)
Please let me know how that is working, it was really hard to get rid of the crabs, but I feel without some more early disruption Fraying Sanity would be too hard a lot of the times, being potentially a dead turn.
Of course, I would love to t1 Crab, t2 Orb, t3 Fraying Sanity, t4 Glimpse + Breaking consistenly, but I think too often we would miss at least one part of that progression, and an early threat will kill us.
With some discard in there, I usually take out their main threat to our plan and can play with a lot more information to avoid hitting a counter, or play glimpse before orb to get a bigger early Incursion since he'll be aggroing hard, extract some key discarded card and stuff like that.
I really like what discard brings into the deck so far, anybody can think of a better card to replace? Thought Scour has been AWESOME as well, I never gave it credit until I played it.
Regarding the Traumatize build, I won't even test it, I feel it's a completely different deck, just one more combo of the multiple ones available, and not a particularly good one at that.
After tinkering with it for an hour or so, it went from a UG Fraying Sanity deck to not having Fraying Sanity at all. I'm still perfecting the lands, but it seems rather potent.
So, Fraying Sanity seems to be the topic of discussion. I'll weigh in by saying it is ABSOLUTELY the truth IF you are not in a tempo match. Does very little on it's own, we've all agreed on that. But if it can stick and then get some support (let's say from a Hedron Crab or Mesmeric Orb then it gets deadly super quick. My opinion thus far is that it's a 3-of.
More of my opinions:
1 - You're talking about going Hedron Crabless? What the hell is wrong with you people?!? Fetchlands and crabs do easily 40% of the heavy lifting. Get on the crab train, folks!
2 - I hate Mind Funeral. Hate it. Inconsistent. Seems to want to whiff ONLY when the whole game is on the line. I have moved on to Startled Awake and have found it to be an appropriate curve-topper.
3 - I get the whole targeted discard and then extract angle, but I don't think it's smart. Especially in this meta. Yeah, you blank the occasional deck on the spot. But more often than not you've wasted two cards on taking out one of seven threats that deck is packing. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek and Extirpate don't deserve mainboard slots. Surgical Extraction is a maybe.
4 - Where the hell are all the Jace's Phantasms??? Card is a house. In a void, it's a 5/5 flying wall of pain. Everyone else here is talking 3 cmc walls that don't do half of what phantasm does. AND HE BEATS DOWN. How many games have I won to a random stingray ass-whoopin'? A whole bunch.
I'm obviously bringing an older version of the deck to the table, but the fundamentals seem to have been tossed to the wayside in the name of new hotness. I am overjoyed to entertain dissenting opinions. But come on, people. Let's make a deck that can handle the BS that the meta is throwing at us right now.
2 Breeding Pool
2 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Forest
2 Golgari Rot Farm
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Amulet of Vigor
3 Dispel
4 Harrow
4 Hedron Crab
3 Negate
3 Peek
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Thought Scour
3 Turn Aside
Basically, in a perfect world you land a Scout T1, and ramp to 3 mana turn 2, when you lay down Coralhelm. T3, you drop Hedron Crab, using the untap trigger on Coralhelm, abuse Scout to mill your opponent out with 2 bouncelands. You can do it with just 1, and maybe that's what I should aim for, taking out the other 4 and removing the Amulet?
It has amazing resiliency, because though the Scout might be unprotected turn 3 when you are tapped out for Coralhelm, if they remove it, you can drop another on T4, as the only other card you need is Crab. That gives you mana to protect it until T5.
It's a mix of Scapeshift and Splinter Twin decks adapted to mill (Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch were on the shortlist of cards) in assembling a combo, and then unleashing it at the right time.
A lot of control to defeat their attempts to remove Scout. Peek, because I felt it was more important to see what their hand held and make sure it is safe to go off than it was to scry 2. It is a less flexible Gitaxian Probe. You can run Serum Visions if you prefer. Thought Scour for the pure mill. Mix and match to taste.
No Visions of Beyond, because you do not mill your opponent to 20 cards in graveyard. You mill them out in one go. This deck does need card draw though. Perhaps the Harrow can go?
Most of all, it needs the mana base tuned to perfection. I hesitate to run too many fetchlands, because they are not used for milling, and being an all in strategy, we are wide open to attacks, so life total may be important if we don't go off T3.
1 & 4 - I LOVED Jace's Phantasm, but testing has been pretty clear on it not being good enough. I like it so much I put together an even jankier build with mill/beats combined, using Wight of Precint Six, Phantasm and some other hitters as well, haha.
The point is, it can very often be a dead draw when you need to keep milling. It also turns on creature removal cards that are otherwise just dead cards in opponent's hand.
Which brings me to why I am trying to go Crabless with Fraying Sanity. I don't even question Crab being a great card, I mean, 2 Crabs down unchecked for a couple of turns is almost gg. But they very often are just removed, and as I said, they give value to paths, pushes, dismembers and so many other creature removal cards that are otherwise dead.
I've liked it so far, probably in a similar way of how much I like the Esper more "traditional" version with Crabs, I have not noticed a big difference so far, other than weirder sideboard cards against leylines/bloodmoons (but I can up my basics count a bit in UB, so bloodmoon is not gg).
I haven't tested the walls, mainly because of this creatureless approach. I don't think they're good enough anyway. Wall of Shards could be decent sb against death shadow, making shadows useless AND blocking any other creature, but it still dies to push... Omens is a cantrip, so that is worth something, but as I said, I think more mill is best, and then crypt incursion to get that extra life if needed.
I don't run Mind funerals anymore, but I liked the card. I have milled +15 a lot of times, and only once hit the awful 4 cards milled, haha. I think I would rather play it than Startled awake, but haven't tried startled awake so it's just what I think.
Discard/Extract is not a plan, discard to disrupt early game is, for sure. And extract is way more powerful in mill than in any other deck. I leave all extraction effects in the sideboard in Esper Mill, since I use more removal and Crabs, and no discard, but in UB I've left 2 extraction effects maindeck and am happy with it for now. You don't need to wreck a deck for it to be valuable, taking any useful piece is great, and the information you get of looking at the whole deck and their hand is VERY good. Discard helps in that you know cards you can hit in their hand as well, so you don't have card disadvantage after casting it.
Surgical/Extirpate I've already went over, with so many snapcasters, counters and graveyard hate around, I'm prefering Extirpate now, but I can certainly see how that's not the case for other people.
I agree on 3x Fraying Sanity (if playing it), but I've considered going to 4 after getting 2 down in the same match, haha. 1 Glimpse and they were dead. I don't think only 1 or 2 copies are good.
Come on guys, post results, decklists, I want to hear ideas
4 Ghost Quarter
15 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Archive Trap
2 Cancel
2 Dispel
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fraying Sanity
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Mind Sculpt
2 Negate
4 Tome Scour
3 Chronic Flooding
2 Visions of Beyond
This mono-blue mill list is 55 cards, and 20 lands giving you 5 flex spots. Add more counters, or change the mana base to add black for Surgical Extraction and/or Extirpate, run another land for Engulf the Shore, whatever you wish.
UB Fraying Sanity Decklist
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Ipnu Rivulet
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Shelldock Isle
2x Swamp
3x Watery Grave
3x Fraying Sanity
4x Mesmeric Orb
2x Crypt Incursion
2x Extirpate
4x Fatal Push
4x Thought Scour
4x Visions of Beyond
4x Breaking//Entering
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Dispel
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
3x Ravenous Trap
3x Echoing Truth
2x Trickbind
Esper mill decklist
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
2x Shelldock Isle
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
3x Crypt Incursion
2x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
4x Thought Scour
4x Visions of Beyond
2x Breaking
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
4x Mind Funeral
4x Mesmeric Orb
4x Hedron Crab
2x Disenchant
4x Extirpate
2x Fatal Push
2x Fragmentize
3x Ghostly Prison
2x Hide/Seek
EDIT: Almost forgot, there's a big downside with Fraying Sanity and Archive Traps/Fetches.
At the end step they let the Fraying Sanity trigger happen, and they can fetch after that. Then you're left with trapping for 13 for free, but no doubling up, or letting it pass.
So don't expect doubling those 13 easily...
Has anyone ever thought about adding creatures to the sideboard so game 1 there is no creatures