Just for giggles, I modified Cheeri0s into a mill deck. I think it's even faster now? Seems like it's a T2 deck pretty consistently. It's mono-white using Opals for U when necessary. I'd put it together, but my wallet is tapped out from MM17. I'll proxy it up and test it nevertheless.
Using what to mill? Altar of the Brood?
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Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Great performance with 12-4-1 combined record
Bridge did a good work for you as I suggested with lower mana curve and some mana sinks
I think Surgical is much better than Extirpate, especially in our builds since extra black can be an issue
I still love Shelldock, its too good to leave for me
Its interesting you put so much emphasis on battling aggro-creature decks
If you have Ensnaring Bridge, you want to get one out G1 if you can, because that completely stops their deck. Yes, they will remove it, but it allows you to board them out in game 2, while they will possibly bring in all their artifact hate. Everything I said about Ensnaring Bridge also goes for Mesmeric Orb. These 2 are great bait to shift them the wrong way for game 2. Don't go so far that it costs you game 1 though.
If you are a lost cause for game 1, you can go all in and exile all their artifact removal. This will set them to thinking Ensnaring Bridge is your only out. Board them out, and bring in more exilers, if you can.
Their deck is really reliant upon bringing their life total down to make Death's Shadow a winning beater. Cards that do this for them are: Street Wraith, Fetchlands, Shocklands and Thoughtseize. Making Mill's job harder: Tarmogoyf is in the deck. Fatal Push helps, here. They have a LOT of fetchlands, so mulligan to Archive Trap is the safe move. Not a ton of creatures, looking at just the 2 top 8 decks, there is 13 in one, and 12 in the other. Making matters worse for them, those 25 creatures are tied up in 4 cards, one of which is a 1 of, primarily used as a pump.
Exiling Death's Shadow, of course, puts an end to that strategy. For that matter, you can exile Tarmogoyfs as well, and they have no creatures until turn 4 or 5. If you can jump on their creatures right away, Liliana, the Last Hope becomes a dead card.
They have the ability to completely wreck your hand with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 IoK, and some Collective Brutality. On the play, they are likely to fetch, so you can get an Archive Trap (or 2!) in when they are on the play before they get their mana to disrupt you as well as immediately exiling something with Surgical Extraction. You will, however, lose your Extirpate if you have one. Your ideal hand will contain an Archive Trap and Surgical Extraction. As to what to exile, I'm not sure. One of their creatures is a really safe bet, but considering they have so much hand disruption, a safer move on their T1 may be to exile Thoughtseize or IoK, simply because they likely have one in hand. If you can get the one out of their hand before they can play it, your ahead of their game. Playing the priority game.
All in all, if you can remove their 3 creatures, the game is over. Board out Ensnaring Bridge or Crypt Incursion, and side in exilers.
2 if their 3/4 creatures are Pushable, and the singleton can be Pushed on Revolt. With their hand disruption, if you don't exile them, they will make it very hard to get any mill cards off. Making it even harder is Liliana of the Veil is in some decks, so you can't hold anything once you are in topdeck mode. As long as you get that T1 Archive Trap off and you keep the board clear, they will deck before you do.
If I missed anything, go ahead and mention it. I used the decklists of Michael Majors (5th, SCG Indy) and Justin Cohen (6th, SCG Indy).
Ensnaring Bridge is hit and miss, especially with 4 Visions of Beyond.
I'd add Breaking/Entering.
An alternative is to add Memory Erosion. It is the mill version of Eidolon of the Great Revel that will add up turn after turn in the same manner as Mesmeric Orb. I'll likely replace 2 Mind Funeral with 2 Memory Erosion in the main, and if it works, increase it to see if it gets even better.
Hedron Crab does do solid work, but I like him as a G2 add. Your data is helpful. Did you have any games against Soul Sisters? A friend of mine is running that, and it goes wider than I can deal with. Thank goodness Damnation is getting an MM3 reprint, I'll be adding one somewhere.
With the Snapcaster reprint, I'll get back to my mono blue control mill.
Great performance with 12-4-1 combined record
Bridge did a good work for you as I suggested with lower mana curve and some mana sinks
I think Surgical is much better than Extirpate, especially in our builds since extra black can be an issue
I still love Shelldock, its too good to leave for me
Its interesting you put so much emphasis on battling aggro-creature decks
12-7-1, actually; I did three more grinders after the first and lost in the first round of each.
Bridge was hit-or-miss; we need it, for sure, but sometimes it comes online too late for it to be of any real help.
I prefer Extirpate to Surgical Extraction because they can't get around it with Noxious Revival, Snapcaster Mage, or Torrential Gearhulk, never mind whatever counters they might have.
Maybe Shelldock would work better in that build than my previous build, but again I found that it came online too late and was too hit-or-miss on what I found with it. Plus it comes in tapped unconditionally, and I don't even run lands like Drowned Catacomb or Darkslick Shores.
I did put a lot of emphasis on battling aggro-creature decks. I might cut some or all of the Darknesses; I think I cast exactly one over the entire weekend (and I didn't even need to). If I do, though, I'm not entirely sure what I'd replace them with. They're there mostly to battle Infect, but now that that deck runs Dispel and Spell Pierce again with Probe banned it's not as useful as it may once have been. I'm thinking Pithing Needle, but then I have what's probably an unreasonable love for that card, and anyway its main use would be against planeswalkers, for which I already have Set Adrift. Another option would be Nihilith, as an alternate win condition against Nahiri decks (since it doesn't care if Emrakul reshuffles their yard back in), and it comes out turn 3 if you can curve Crab into Nihilith into fetchland. (Plus it laughs at Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay.)
As for Memory Erosion, I don't much like it; it just seems too expensive. I might give it a try in place of Mesmeric Orb, though; certainly it would reduce my weakness to Spell Snare (or Chalice on two).
Also, I'd be very strongly tempted toward Yahenni's Expertise over Damnation (because casting a free fused Breaking/Entering is awesome). (I think I'd still run Damnation if I were to run a board wipe, but it wouldn't be automatic.)
EDIT: Another reason I favour Extirpate over Surgical Extraction is because my mana base has 9 fetches and 4 shocks, where most I've seen have 7 and 3. Since I'm paying more life for my lands (though I tend to be conservative with shocklands), I'd take the mana option on Surgical more often than most would anyway, so I decided I'd rather have the split second than the Phyrexian option I'm not going to use much anyway.
Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Modern Masters did absolutely NOTHING for U/B Mill, other than drop Snapcaster prices a bit. Added a few cards that punish Mill to the pool, like Goyf, Abrupt Decay and LotV. I was hoping for a Glimpse reprint, as that would have dropped the price of the major piece and maybe enticed a few players in.
Esper got Path and Stony Silence.
All in all, Mill got worse, because other decks got threats and answers price lowered.
Mill will remain a non-tier deck awaiting a breakthrough card. Since I will open 2ish playsets of Misty Rainforests and likely a few Goyfs, (hopefully a full playset) I will be testing a Sultai mill with Goyf and trying Melira in the sideboard. I'll have to look and see what else G offers. Even just Blossoming Defense for Crab may help.
I doubt Mill is going to get its breakthrough card any time soon. In all likelihood a card powerful enough to push Mill to real competitiveness in Modern would make it a top-tier deck in Standard, and Wizards doesn't like having strong mill decks in Standard, since it's a very polarizing strategy: a few players love it, and a lot of players hate it (specifically, they hate playing against it)*. And unlike similarly polarizing strategies like Infect, which gets better every time a good pump spell is printed, Mill needs cards specifically geared for it.
The best hope for Mill, honestly, might be another card like Visions of Beyond--a card that was intended to reward self-mill strategies but has been co-opted by Mill. (But then I've maintained since Khans of Tarkir that the single biggest boost Mill has gotten in the last three or four years was Polluted Delta.)
*As one of my opponents noted, the problem with facing Mill is that 90% of the cards you bring in to fight it just get milled away.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Not super happy with the sideboard, and it's based upon a U/B mill deck's weaknesses, I need to look at it more.
Maindeck, biggest thing, I think, is I want 1 more Visions. Did not add Crypt Incursion, I guess testing will show if it is needed.
Not super happy with the sideboard, and it's based upon a U/B mill deck's weaknesses, I need to look at it more.
Maindeck, biggest thing, I think, is I want 1 more Visions. Did not add Crypt Incursion, I guess testing will show if it is needed.
Mill has its own 1 mana flying tarmogoyf. Cheerios and Infect are t3. Grafdiggers cage hurts you more than Death shadow.
- Thought Scour has been great for me lately. I've tried both 3 and 4 in the maindeck, and they've been very helpful in smoothing out draws, mana access (I'm on Esper), and reaching the mythical 20 cards milled to activate Visions.
- Wall of Omens serves a similar purpose, and is quite useful against matchups like Burn where a decent blocker along the ground goes a long way. This is probably a sideboard card; the biggest issue is finding space in your 15 for it.
- You'd better be packing Hide//Seek if you're an Esper player heading into a meta where Breach or Nahiri decks abound. This card in your opener turns a 20-80 into an 80-20, and usually catches your opponent totally off guard.
- Snapcaster Mage in a low-curve deck with Orbs backing him up seems to really take the deck up a notch. Unlike the points above, I haven't confirmed this in tourney play yet--proxying him as a two-of until MM drops. Nonetheless, his utility seems undeniable.
Thought Scour gets played in my mono blue deck. Haven't tried it in Dimir. I guess it depends on what you want, filter and cantrip (Serum Visions) or uber card draw (Visions of Beyond) or mill and cantrip (Thought Scour).
Wall of Omens is a new one, also you could just go Fog Bank or Wall of Denial. Denial is expensive, but it sure soaks up a lot!
Hide // Seek sounds hilarious, and is a cheaper Crypt Incursion. Great for Emrakul. Why is this not played more in Esper? I really like that one!
I've tried Thought Scour in a previous build of UB, but it was underwhelming to me. (Granted in that build I played four Trapmaker's Snares and a Ravenous Trap, and Scour doesn't trigger that Trap.)
I might try it for fun in a deck with Sphinx's Tutelage, since then I'd get to mill four at least.
EDIT: One thing that it occurs to me that green could add to Mill is Birds of Paradise, since it would help with mana issues and let us go a bit higher on the curve. (Or, if you want to go more on the beatdown plan, Noble Hierarch, though it won't solve any black mana issues.)
Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Thought Scour gets played in my mono blue deck. Haven't tried it in Dimir. I guess it depends on what you want, filter and cantrip (Serum Visions) or uber card draw (Visions of Beyond) or mill and cantrip (Thought Scour).
For me at the moment, it's 3x Scour and 4x Visions. In the past, I've advocated for 3 Visions (and no Scour), but the deck purs along so nicely with this setup. Mulligans are very nearly a thing of the past.
Wall of Omens is a new one, also you could just go Fog Bank or Wall of Denial. Denial is expensive, but it sure soaks up a lot!
Wall of Denial was one of the cards that made me want to build this deck, back in the kitchen table casual days. Good times.
Since we're on the subject, I've always found Wall of Shards intriguing as well. But ultimately, for me, a blocker has to either draw you a card or mill some of the enemy's library.
Hide // Seek sounds hilarious, and is a cheaper Crypt Incursion. Great for Emrakul. Why is this not played more in Esper? I really like that one!
I'm not sure; it's probably just too narrow. But you're right, it is hilarious. I maindecked one at a recent tourney where I knew Emrakul would be present, and even against non-Emmy decks it's not a terrible T2 play: you gain some life, exile a troublesome card, and see exactly what you're playing against.
@nob, I can certainly see how Scour would fail to launch in a trap-heavy Dimir setup. For Esper players running a more controlling game, I'd recommend giving the card a whirl.
Reviewing the BUg deck, I've decided on the following changes:
In:
4 Jace's Phantasm.
Out:
1 Fatal Push
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Verdant Catacombs
What this does is shift the focus away from mill into an aggroish strategy.
Ideally we play T1 Crab. The revelation of a T2 fetchland is not going to make them happy, with a Crab on table. Rather than mill 6, they may elect to remove the Crab. In this case, they have used a removal spell, and now we have an Instant and a Land in the graveyard, and Crab adds a creature. Play Goyf, and he is a 3/4 on turn 2, threatening to become even larger. Otherwise we can play a Glimpse, activating both Goyf and Phantasm for a T3 drop, not to mention the exiling possibilities. I do not think we want T2 Glimpse against a burn deck, though.
On our turn 3 play, we prefer to grow the Goyf with a Glimpse or Breaking, either of which should trigger the Phantasm, which is our 3rd mana play of turn 3. Now we have a Goyf of 4/5, because we added a sorcery, and it may be a 5/6 if we milled an artifact or an enchantment, a 6/7 if both. On top of that, now the 5/5 flyer Phantasm is in play, and they are really regretting using their removal on the Crab. That can be a T4 win if they can't find an answer.
Alternately, if they decide to let the crab mill, they have 6 cards in their graveyard, plus our land. T2 Goyf, and he is likely at least a 3/4, perhaps as much as a 5/6. T3 is the same play for a mill card and a Phantasm, putting them in the same hole. They will likely use a removal spell on Goyf, but they still face a crab, and a 5/5 flying Phantasm, and we have 3 more Goyfs floating around. I like the chances.
Ideally they target the crab - in this deck he seems to be removal bait, and my guess he will be remarkably effective in G1 before they know about the Goyf. I'm not sure what their decision tree is going to be in G2, but it will likely involve Chalice if they have them. Adding Phantasm spreads out the threats over mana costs 1 and 2, allowing you options against Chalice. The idea is that they face too many threats to be able to remove them all, allowing you to win on the ground. This is a departure from our standard of winning via mill, but it may be the best we can do until we get the last piece(s).
Nihilth isn't Goyf. It is effective, but the payoff is not worth the cost. Paying 1B for a turn 2 4/4 isn't the same as paying 1G and them milling them 8 or 10, and getting a 4/5 or 5/6 beater.
The only way Nihilith would be better is if Goyf was getting Pushed every time.
Goyf has a reaction. It stresses the opponent. They use their removal on him, and forget the 5/5 flyer that's actually a bigger threat due to their own lack of answering flyers.
That's not to say Nihilith won't work, but between a 4/4 or Goyf, I'll take Goyf.
And its completely ignoring the fact I am opening the door to Blossoming Defense to defend them. A door that may be opened wider. Black can't protect its creatures like white and green can. Black likes to sacrifice stuff, not keep it around.
Nihilth isn't Goyf. It is effective, but the payoff is not worth the cost. Paying 1B for a turn 2 4/4 isn't the same as paying 1G and them milling them 8 or 10, and getting a 4/5 or 5/6 beater.
The only way Nihilith would be better is if Goyf was getting Pushed every time.
Goyf has a reaction. It stresses the opponent. They use their removal on him, and forget the 5/5 flyer that's actually a bigger threat due to their own lack of answering flyers.
That's not to say Nihilith won't work, but between a 4/4 or Goyf, I'll take Goyf.
And its completely ignoring the fact I am opening the door to Blossoming Defense to defend them. A door that may be opened wider. Black can't protect its creatures like white and green can. Black likes to sacrifice stuff, not keep it around.
I didn't like aggro mill idea before because I always thought Nihilith as 4/4 for 2 mana which requires activation was underwhelming. With Goyf this can be better. I made this decklist:
I'm going to try replacing the Darknesses in my list with Pithing Needles.
As I said, I have perhaps an unreasonable love for Needle, but I generally think that even if it might not be the best choice, it's almost never an incorrect choice. Granted I think it isn't quite as useful in Modern as it is in Legacy (or Standard, when it's legal there), but it's an option to deal with stuff like Inkmoth Nexus, and it can help keep planeswalkers and creatures like Walking Ballista in check until I can assemble Set Adrift + mill spell.
EDIT: Though it occurs to me that it might be better to pack Torpor Orbs, since I'm not running Snapcasters. It'd help against some control decks, anyway, and then I could switch the Extirpates for Surgicals. Can't think of the right mix of Needles and Orbs, though, and I just like Needle too much not to try it as a four-of. (Orb does stop Scribe's ETB trigger, but not its delirium triggers.)
Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Using what to mill? Altar of the Brood?
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Bridge did a good work for you as I suggested with lower mana curve and some mana sinks
I think Surgical is much better than Extirpate, especially in our builds since extra black can be an issue
I still love Shelldock, its too good to leave for me
Its interesting you put so much emphasis on battling aggro-creature decks
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
As such, I want to deconstruct it for Dimir. I'll allow an Esper expert to deconstruct it for Esper.
Looking at the decklists, they have a lot of ways to attack Ensnaring Bridge, Mesmeric Orb and artifacts in general.
Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Kolaghan's Command, Ancient Grudge, Kataki, War's Wage, Inquisition of Kozilek {IoK) and Thoughtseize.
If you have Ensnaring Bridge, you want to get one out G1 if you can, because that completely stops their deck. Yes, they will remove it, but it allows you to board them out in game 2, while they will possibly bring in all their artifact hate. Everything I said about Ensnaring Bridge also goes for Mesmeric Orb. These 2 are great bait to shift them the wrong way for game 2. Don't go so far that it costs you game 1 though.
They do play Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard so Snapcaster Mage can and maybe should be boarded out if you play it game 1.
If you are a lost cause for game 1, you can go all in and exile all their artifact removal. This will set them to thinking Ensnaring Bridge is your only out. Board them out, and bring in more exilers, if you can.
Their deck is really reliant upon bringing their life total down to make Death's Shadow a winning beater. Cards that do this for them are: Street Wraith, Fetchlands, Shocklands and Thoughtseize. Making Mill's job harder: Tarmogoyf is in the deck. Fatal Push helps, here. They have a LOT of fetchlands, so mulligan to Archive Trap is the safe move. Not a ton of creatures, looking at just the 2 top 8 decks, there is 13 in one, and 12 in the other. Making matters worse for them, those 25 creatures are tied up in 4 cards, one of which is a 1 of, primarily used as a pump.
Exiling Death's Shadow, of course, puts an end to that strategy. For that matter, you can exile Tarmogoyfs as well, and they have no creatures until turn 4 or 5. If you can jump on their creatures right away, Liliana, the Last Hope becomes a dead card.
They have the ability to completely wreck your hand with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 IoK, and some Collective Brutality. On the play, they are likely to fetch, so you can get an Archive Trap (or 2!) in when they are on the play before they get their mana to disrupt you as well as immediately exiling something with Surgical Extraction. You will, however, lose your Extirpate if you have one. Your ideal hand will contain an Archive Trap and Surgical Extraction. As to what to exile, I'm not sure. One of their creatures is a really safe bet, but considering they have so much hand disruption, a safer move on their T1 may be to exile Thoughtseize or IoK, simply because they likely have one in hand. If you can get the one out of their hand before they can play it, your ahead of their game. Playing the priority game.
All in all, if you can remove their 3 creatures, the game is over. Board out Ensnaring Bridge or Crypt Incursion, and side in exilers.
2 if their 3/4 creatures are Pushable, and the singleton can be Pushed on Revolt. With their hand disruption, if you don't exile them, they will make it very hard to get any mill cards off. Making it even harder is Liliana of the Veil is in some decks, so you can't hold anything once you are in topdeck mode. As long as you get that T1 Archive Trap off and you keep the board clear, they will deck before you do.
If I missed anything, go ahead and mention it. I used the decklists of Michael Majors (5th, SCG Indy) and Justin Cohen (6th, SCG Indy).
Their creatures:
4x Death's Shadow (both)
4x Tarmogoyf (both)
4x Street Wraith (both)
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager (Michael Majors only)
I'd add Breaking/Entering.
An alternative is to add Memory Erosion. It is the mill version of Eidolon of the Great Revel that will add up turn after turn in the same manner as Mesmeric Orb. I'll likely replace 2 Mind Funeral with 2 Memory Erosion in the main, and if it works, increase it to see if it gets even better.
Hedron Crab does do solid work, but I like him as a G2 add. Your data is helpful. Did you have any games against Soul Sisters? A friend of mine is running that, and it goes wider than I can deal with. Thank goodness Damnation is getting an MM3 reprint, I'll be adding one somewhere.
With the Snapcaster reprint, I'll get back to my mono blue control mill.
12-7-1, actually; I did three more grinders after the first and lost in the first round of each.
Bridge was hit-or-miss; we need it, for sure, but sometimes it comes online too late for it to be of any real help.
I prefer Extirpate to Surgical Extraction because they can't get around it with Noxious Revival, Snapcaster Mage, or Torrential Gearhulk, never mind whatever counters they might have.
Maybe Shelldock would work better in that build than my previous build, but again I found that it came online too late and was too hit-or-miss on what I found with it. Plus it comes in tapped unconditionally, and I don't even run lands like Drowned Catacomb or Darkslick Shores.
I did put a lot of emphasis on battling aggro-creature decks. I might cut some or all of the Darknesses; I think I cast exactly one over the entire weekend (and I didn't even need to). If I do, though, I'm not entirely sure what I'd replace them with. They're there mostly to battle Infect, but now that that deck runs Dispel and Spell Pierce again with Probe banned it's not as useful as it may once have been. I'm thinking Pithing Needle, but then I have what's probably an unreasonable love for that card, and anyway its main use would be against planeswalkers, for which I already have Set Adrift. Another option would be Nihilith, as an alternate win condition against Nahiri decks (since it doesn't care if Emrakul reshuffles their yard back in), and it comes out turn 3 if you can curve Crab into Nihilith into fetchland. (Plus it laughs at Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay.)
As for Memory Erosion, I don't much like it; it just seems too expensive. I might give it a try in place of Mesmeric Orb, though; certainly it would reduce my weakness to Spell Snare (or Chalice on two).
Also, I'd be very strongly tempted toward Yahenni's Expertise over Damnation (because casting a free fused Breaking/Entering is awesome). (I think I'd still run Damnation if I were to run a board wipe, but it wouldn't be automatic.)
EDIT: Another reason I favour Extirpate over Surgical Extraction is because my mana base has 9 fetches and 4 shocks, where most I've seen have 7 and 3. Since I'm paying more life for my lands (though I tend to be conservative with shocklands), I'd take the mana option on Surgical more often than most would anyway, so I decided I'd rather have the split second than the Phyrexian option I'm not going to use much anyway.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Esper got Path and Stony Silence.
All in all, Mill got worse, because other decks got threats and answers price lowered.
Mill will remain a non-tier deck awaiting a breakthrough card. Since I will open 2ish playsets of Misty Rainforests and likely a few Goyfs, (hopefully a full playset) I will be testing a Sultai mill with Goyf and trying Melira in the sideboard. I'll have to look and see what else G offers. Even just Blossoming Defense for Crab may help.
The best hope for Mill, honestly, might be another card like Visions of Beyond--a card that was intended to reward self-mill strategies but has been co-opted by Mill. (But then I've maintained since Khans of Tarkir that the single biggest boost Mill has gotten in the last three or four years was Polluted Delta.)
*As one of my opponents noted, the problem with facing Mill is that 90% of the cards you bring in to fight it just get milled away.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Thoughts? (Other than this competes with Jund for expense. o.0)
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
4 Archive Trap
3 Blossoming Defense
4 Breaking // Entering
2 Extirpate
3 Fatal Push
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Hedron Crab
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Visions of Beyond
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void (Cheerios)
4 Grafdigger's Cage (Death's Shadow)
4 Hurkyl's Recall (Affinity)
3 Melira, Sylvok Outcast (Infect)
Not super happy with the sideboard, and it's based upon a U/B mill deck's weaknesses, I need to look at it more.
Maindeck, biggest thing, I think, is I want 1 more Visions. Did not add Crypt Incursion, I guess testing will show if it is needed.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
- Thought Scour has been great for me lately. I've tried both 3 and 4 in the maindeck, and they've been very helpful in smoothing out draws, mana access (I'm on Esper), and reaching the mythical 20 cards milled to activate Visions.
- Wall of Omens serves a similar purpose, and is quite useful against matchups like Burn where a decent blocker along the ground goes a long way. This is probably a sideboard card; the biggest issue is finding space in your 15 for it.
- You'd better be packing Hide//Seek if you're an Esper player heading into a meta where Breach or Nahiri decks abound. This card in your opener turns a 20-80 into an 80-20, and usually catches your opponent totally off guard.
- Snapcaster Mage in a low-curve deck with Orbs backing him up seems to really take the deck up a notch. Unlike the points above, I haven't confirmed this in tourney play yet--proxying him as a two-of until MM drops. Nonetheless, his utility seems undeniable.
Wall of Omens is a new one, also you could just go Fog Bank or Wall of Denial. Denial is expensive, but it sure soaks up a lot!
Hide // Seek sounds hilarious, and is a cheaper Crypt Incursion. Great for Emrakul. Why is this not played more in Esper? I really like that one!
I might try it for fun in a deck with Sphinx's Tutelage, since then I'd get to mill four at least.
EDIT: One thing that it occurs to me that green could add to Mill is Birds of Paradise, since it would help with mana issues and let us go a bit higher on the curve. (Or, if you want to go more on the beatdown plan, Noble Hierarch, though it won't solve any black mana issues.)
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
For me at the moment, it's 3x Scour and 4x Visions. In the past, I've advocated for 3 Visions (and no Scour), but the deck purs along so nicely with this setup. Mulligans are very nearly a thing of the past.
Haven't ever run Serum Visions.
Wall of Denial was one of the cards that made me want to build this deck, back in the kitchen table casual days. Good times.
Since we're on the subject, I've always found Wall of Shards intriguing as well. But ultimately, for me, a blocker has to either draw you a card or mill some of the enemy's library.
I'm not sure; it's probably just too narrow. But you're right, it is hilarious. I maindecked one at a recent tourney where I knew Emrakul would be present, and even against non-Emmy decks it's not a terrible T2 play: you gain some life, exile a troublesome card, and see exactly what you're playing against.
@nob, I can certainly see how Scour would fail to launch in a trap-heavy Dimir setup. For Esper players running a more controlling game, I'd recommend giving the card a whirl.
In:
4 Jace's Phantasm.
Out:
1 Fatal Push
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Verdant Catacombs
What this does is shift the focus away from mill into an aggroish strategy.
Ideally we play T1 Crab. The revelation of a T2 fetchland is not going to make them happy, with a Crab on table. Rather than mill 6, they may elect to remove the Crab. In this case, they have used a removal spell, and now we have an Instant and a Land in the graveyard, and Crab adds a creature. Play Goyf, and he is a 3/4 on turn 2, threatening to become even larger. Otherwise we can play a Glimpse, activating both Goyf and Phantasm for a T3 drop, not to mention the exiling possibilities. I do not think we want T2 Glimpse against a burn deck, though.
On our turn 3 play, we prefer to grow the Goyf with a Glimpse or Breaking, either of which should trigger the Phantasm, which is our 3rd mana play of turn 3. Now we have a Goyf of 4/5, because we added a sorcery, and it may be a 5/6 if we milled an artifact or an enchantment, a 6/7 if both. On top of that, now the 5/5 flyer Phantasm is in play, and they are really regretting using their removal on the Crab. That can be a T4 win if they can't find an answer.
Alternately, if they decide to let the crab mill, they have 6 cards in their graveyard, plus our land. T2 Goyf, and he is likely at least a 3/4, perhaps as much as a 5/6. T3 is the same play for a mill card and a Phantasm, putting them in the same hole. They will likely use a removal spell on Goyf, but they still face a crab, and a 5/5 flying Phantasm, and we have 3 more Goyfs floating around. I like the chances.
Ideally they target the crab - in this deck he seems to be removal bait, and my guess he will be remarkably effective in G1 before they know about the Goyf. I'm not sure what their decision tree is going to be in G2, but it will likely involve Chalice if they have them. Adding Phantasm spreads out the threats over mana costs 1 and 2, allowing you options against Chalice. The idea is that they face too many threats to be able to remove them all, allowing you to win on the ground. This is a departure from our standard of winning via mill, but it may be the best we can do until we get the last piece(s).
6 more days to Modern Masters!
UR Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
WUR Narset's Coinflip Casino
Modern
UB Mill
The only way Nihilith would be better is if Goyf was getting Pushed every time.
Goyf has a reaction. It stresses the opponent. They use their removal on him, and forget the 5/5 flyer that's actually a bigger threat due to their own lack of answering flyers.
That's not to say Nihilith won't work, but between a 4/4 or Goyf, I'll take Goyf.
And its completely ignoring the fact I am opening the door to Blossoming Defense to defend them. A door that may be opened wider. Black can't protect its creatures like white and green can. Black likes to sacrifice stuff, not keep it around.
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
3x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
Creature (18)
4x Grim Flayer
4x Hedron Crab
4x Jace's Phantasm
2x Manic Scribe
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtseize
Instant (7)
1x Abrupt Decay
3x Archive Trap
3x Fatal Push
Artifact (1)
1x Mishra's Bauble
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Collective Brutality
2x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Fatal Push
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Reclamation Sage
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Visions of Beyond
Delirium part might be a bit awkward but we have discard and removal package to enable it.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
As I said, I have perhaps an unreasonable love for Needle, but I generally think that even if it might not be the best choice, it's almost never an incorrect choice. Granted I think it isn't quite as useful in Modern as it is in Legacy (or Standard, when it's legal there), but it's an option to deal with stuff like Inkmoth Nexus, and it can help keep planeswalkers and creatures like Walking Ballista in check until I can assemble Set Adrift + mill spell.
EDIT: Though it occurs to me that it might be better to pack Torpor Orbs, since I'm not running Snapcasters. It'd help against some control decks, anyway, and then I could switch the Extirpates for Surgicals. Can't think of the right mix of Needles and Orbs, though, and I just like Needle too much not to try it as a four-of. (Orb does stop Scribe's ETB trigger, but not its delirium triggers.)
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
What's with the Night of Soul's Betrayal?