Reading the comments of the past few days, there are some fundamental misunderstandings of the Mill deck that I want to clear up. Consider this a sort of 'White Paper' for mill. For most of you, this is 'Well, DUH!' But some readers may need a little more insight to the nuances of balance, or may not know at all.
First and foremost, Mill is an aggro deck. We are racing against a very inefficient clock. In MTG, most clocks go to 20, but ours goes to 60, and then, often to 75. So why do we race this clock? Often, our opponents are unprepared for the different race, or not as prepared. Mill aims to take advantage of that lack of preparation. Other times, the meta may swing more heavily in favor of mill, becoming combo heavy, which Mill excels against.
Mill really likes to beat combo decks on turn 2, with a Glimpse the Unthinkable, followed by a Surgical Extraction.
Mill is not a control deck. Aggro and control are opposite play styles. Oddly enough, because Mill is not fast enough as an aggro deck, we add elements of control to the deck to gain time. This, however, does not make Mill a control deck. Too many control cards will make it such though, to the detriment of the deck.
In our 60 card main deck, we aim to strike that perfect balance of aggression and control that enables us to win. The crucial balance point is always found on the control end, and never on the aggro end. To make this simple, imagine a long scale, with pure aggro at one end, and pure control at the other. A pure aggro Mill deck will very rarely win, because in a turn 4 format like Modern, we simply do not have enough powerful mill cards to ensure that we can mill them out. Assuming the opponent keeps a 7 card opening hand, and that we are on the draw, we must mill an average of 13 cards per turn, and that would win the game on the 4th turn - after our opponent has had his 4th turn. That is 1 Archive Trap per turn, only to lose. Clearly, we must slow the game down. We do this by adding control to the game.
A pure gas aggro deck will rely on blowout cards to win the game. Cards like Temur Battle Rage, Become Immense, Mutagenic Growth, etc, can accelerate the damage they do. Mill cannot do that. It has a pace to it, limits. We cannot play Mind Sculpt, and then add on more mill with an interrupt, thus mill demands the controlling restraint upon the opponent. (Yes, I know Twincast is a thing.)
The perfect Mill deck slides the bar toward control only as much as is necessary to win. Too far, and we are inefficient. We drag the game out so long the opponent pushes through, or finds a way around us. Too little, and we lose for being too weak against opposing strategies.
The difficulty comes in the form of every deck on the other side of the table requiring a different balance point of us.
Every card in the deck is assigned an aggro or control role. Even lands can have an aggro or control role. For instance, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, is an aggro card, because it directly feeds an aggro strategy in Hedron Crab. The same applies to fetchlands. On the other end of the scale, a land like Shelldock Isle is considered control, because it is reacting to a set milestone. The same applies to Visions of Beyond. Yes, the result is usually a furtherance of our mill strategy, but it remains a control role. Basic lands have an aggro role up to a certain number - after that number, the assume a negative control role, slowing us down with out any net benefit. We are not assigning a number to this, because the number changes with every game, let alone every opponent. Any time you draw an unneeded land (flooded) you have reached your aggro/control tipping point. This applies to deckbuilding as well as during play.
Obviously, cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable, Mind Funeral, Mesmeric Orb etc are aggro cards. We need not spend much time discussing those. The real question is, what constitutes control? The simple answer is, anything that reacts to the opponent's attempted line of play. By this definition, Archive Trap is a control card, oddly enough. Fatal Push and Path to Exile are control cards. Crypt Incursion. Your entire sideboard.
The crucial element in building your deck is to only include exactly enough control to defeat his plan. Some are a 4 of, like Archive Trap. Others the line is much, much blurrier. For instance, Crypt Incursion? How many copies do we run? In my opinion, Crypt Incursion is the tell all card. An aggro mill will run 2. If mill runs 1, it's going very aggro,and needs to justify only having one. If it runs 3, it is becoming decidedly controlling, and again, needs to justify it.
The number of aggro cards are very few in a mill deck. The more aggressive, or 'all in' the mill, the more targeted the control needs to be. For instance, a mill deck using Mesmeric Orb needs to have more specific control
than a deck without it. It needs to have a different response. In a mill deck with MO, you are hitting the opponent constantly, but most importantly, during his untap phase. This requires instant reactability, even if you are tapped out. For this reason, I'd use Surgical Extraction over Extirpate, because the ability to remove a threat needs that immediate response before he can possibly cast a 2nd copy out of hand before we could wait to untap. If I run Tome Scour, I run a higher amount on Surgical over Extirpate to react faster. If I run Fatal Push or Path to Exile, I can use Extirpate, because I have more safety valves.
I hope that this explanation of Mill as a marriage of aggro and control, and the proper definition of every card as aggro or control aids in finding that perfect balance.
I treat my build as aggro too. Most of the builds I saw here were aggro (except combo). Not straight aggro like Bushwhacker Zoo, but critical mass decks. Where we build a tower the whole game and once the tower reaches certain height we win. Generally there are two methods of building tower: throwing bricks asap or using only the most effective bricks, while other cards are holding back the onslaught. And Archive Trap is an aggro card, it doesnt matter that it changes its cost based on opp's moves.
@Peisitratos561
I would use Surgical in your build vs Abzan Company, Kiki-Jiki, Ad Nauseam, Dredge, Living End, Eggs, Tron, Reanimator, Amulet Titan.
I made a computer simulation to calculate Mind Funeral's performance. These are the results:
lands in deck - milled on average
16 - 14.5
18 - 13
20 - 12
24 - 10
28 - 8.5
Keep in mind fetches, searching for basics via Ghost Quarter and Path and Surgical Extraction improve these numbers.
And I think Mill is competitive. I have some statistics, results and experience with the deck to say that I didnt come up with this conclusion overnight.
Timba, I say Archive Trap is control because the first time they get hit with it, it affects their play the rest of the game.
Hit them T1, and then Ghost Quarter their shock or other dual T3, and bluff that you have another in hand, they'll decline to search. I've done that several times. At that point, you've made it a control card.
I think I'm the only one mentioning Twincast in this thread. I've played it previously, it's awesome and gives us that final bomb we need to close out the game. T4 Glimpse - Twincast or T5 Funeral - Twincast really does some damage.
Regards to Snapcaster, I agree, Snappy is better, I already run 4. But to point out, Glimpse Snap Glimpse is 6 mana, where Glimpse - Twin is 4 mana. In terms of playing it like a bomb, Twincast wins a little bit (I realize Snappy is generating more value though). You can even Glimpse - Snap - Twincast or vice versa, once again for 6 mana though. The debate for me is whether it's worth having that bomb and top-decking Twincast when you need mill spells, versus running Breaking and having the guaranteed mill albeit a little less effective. There's also the edge cases of Twincast on your other spells (Fatal Push, Surgical, Collective Brutality) in a pinch, though using 2 cards and milling zero is getting away from the game plan a bit. But sometimes it needs to be done. I'm seriously debating between the options!
Daeyel, thanks for your opinion piece there. I don't agree with a lot of it, but you clearly put some thought into it and it's always good to read other people's thoughts. I don't think I've seen a list from you in awhile (aside from that Sanity Grinding one, lol). What are you running these days?
Twincast is a great spell that seems to be under utilized in many decks not just mill.
I have always looked at mill as a less efficient burn deck. That being said.....you cannot look at it as needing 60 "damage" more like 50. Opening hand is 5-7 with muligans. Plus they take 1 "damage" every turn. Tome scour is close to shock, breaking or glimpse is close to one of the 2 mana 3 damage cards. crab or ord are our Eidolon of the Great Revel. Because we are less efficient then burn slowing down opponents is needed or more mill. Slowing opponents down with control cards like prison, bridge or the like is one way. Or you go heavier on mill cards running 4 ofs scour, breaking, glimps, funeral, trap or any other mill.
Unlike some decks in modern where you have only a few "flex" cards and otherwise one way build, we will never have a one right build. Maybe some day we will be a competitive deck until then I will continue to figure it out
Surgical Extraction is not a win more card. It is a 'win the game right now' card. As such, it goes in the main, because it ends so many combo games immediately. Surgical Extraction is WHY we are so good against combo.
I'm not willing to dink around and hope they do not pull one of their other 3 copies before I can mill them out. Nope. I'm applying my 'coup de grace' right then and there. Do as you like, I don't give 2nd chances.
Not only that, but it slows down and hurts non combo decks. Do you know why you use Surgical Extraction on Tarmogoyf?
Because you just made him the 5/6 everyone fears by milling the opponent. I don't know if you have looked at the mill cards, but we have very little chance to mill them out in the 4 turn clock Goyf just gave us. Your best hope is Mind Funeral, which you declare unplayable. (What you do against Chalice of the Void on 2 beside scoop, IDK.) When I Mind Funeral an opponent, I find they usually mill 12 - 14, and are really frustrated/tilted by it. That's an additional advantage to me when they feel that pressure. They stop playing around cards like Archive Trap.
@Peisitratos561
I would use Surgical in your build vs Abzan Company, Kiki-Jiki, Ad Nauseam, Dredge, Living End, Eggs, Tron, Reanimator, Amulet Titan.
I made a computer simulation to calculate Mind Funeral's performance. These are the results:
lands in deck - milled on average
16 - 14.5
18 - 13
20 - 12
24 - 10
28 - 8.5
Keep in mind fetches, searching for basics via Ghost Quarter and Path and Surgical Extraction improve these numbers.
And I think Mill is competitive. I have some statistics, results and experience with the deck to say that I didnt come up with this conclusion overnight.
Surgical Extraction is still a win-more card: vs Abzan Company and Kiki-Jiki removals from sideboard are more than enough; vs Ad Nauseam (preside), Tron and Amulet a fast milling is enough; vs Living End, Reanimator and Dredge we can bring in the hate we pack for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (and Dregde never wins against fogs); Eggs is probably the only one where Surgical Extraction does something unique, yet even there I believe that fast milling and Set Adrift go a long way towards winning.
I don't think your simulation of Mind Funeral's performance tallies with what we expect on calculation's basis; yet we cannot judge until you offer more details on the algorhitm you used. The same issue comes up with your alleged improvement of Mind Funeral's performance when used in conjuction with Surgical Extraction, Ghost Quarter, Path to Exile, opposing fetchlands: I argued in detail in my primer that those cards do not improve Mind Funeral's performance that much so that we can deem its use worth.
So: your 'statistics' (as for what you present in this comment) seems suspicious at least, and results and experience are not meant to ratify expection on a deck's performance but to give hints about what happens in certain circumstances (as I recalled in my primer).
Its hard to argue when you think that 4 removals from sideboard is enough for a 5-turn deck to consistently beat 4-turn decks that were built with removals in mind and that have their own disruption.
This is my program and its results are consistent with another calculations I found in google.
import java.util.Random;
class MindFuneral {
static int DECK_SIZE = 60;
static int REPEATS = 1000 * 1000;
static int[] lib = new int[DECK_SIZE];
static Random rng = new Random();
@Peisitratos561
I would use Surgical in your build vs Abzan Company, Kiki-Jiki, Ad Nauseam, Dredge, Living End, Eggs, Tron, Reanimator, Amulet Titan.
I made a computer simulation to calculate Mind Funeral's performance. These are the results:
lands in deck - milled on average
16 - 14.5
18 - 13
20 - 12
24 - 10
28 - 8.5
Keep in mind fetches, searching for basics via Ghost Quarter and Path and Surgical Extraction improve these numbers.
And I think Mill is competitive. I have some statistics, results and experience with the deck to say that I didnt come up with this conclusion overnight.
Surgical Extraction is still a win-more card: vs Abzan Company and Kiki-Jiki removals from sideboard are more than enough; vs Ad Nauseam (preside), Tron and Amulet a fast milling is enough; vs Living End, Reanimator and Dredge we can bring in the hate we pack for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (and Dregde never wins against fogs); Eggs is probably the only one where Surgical Extraction does something unique, yet even there I believe that fast milling and Set Adrift go a long way towards winning.
I don't think your simulation of Mind Funeral's performance tallies with what we expect on calculation's basis; yet we cannot judge until you offer more details on the algorhitm you used. The same issue comes up with your alleged improvement of Mind Funeral's performance when used in conjuction with Surgical Extraction, Ghost Quarter, Path to Exile, opposing fetchlands: I argued in detail in my primer that those cards do not improve Mind Funeral's performance that much so that we can deem its use worth.
So: your 'statistics' (as for what you present in this comment) seems suspicious at least, and results and experience are not meant to ratify expection on a deck's performance but to give hints about what happens in certain circumstances (as I recalled in my primer).
Its hard to argue when you think that 4 removals from sideboard is enough for a 5-turn deck to consistently beat 4-turn decks that were built with removals in mind and that have their own disruption.
This is my program and its results are consistent with another calculations I found in google.
import java.util.Random;
class MindFuneral {
static int DECK_SIZE = 60;
static int REPEATS = 1000 * 1000;
static int[] lib = new int[DECK_SIZE];
static Random rng = new Random();
int milled = 0;
for (int i = 0; i < REPEATS; i++) {
shuffle();
int j = 0;
int milledLands = 0;
do {
int milledCard = lib[j];
if (milledCard == 0) { // land
milledLands++;
}
milled++;
j++;
} while (milledLands < 4);
}
return String.format("%.1f", (double) milled / REPEATS);
}
static void init(int lands) {
for (int i = 0; i < lib.length; i++) {
if (i < lands) {
lib[i] = 0; // land
} else {
lib[i] = 1; // spell
}
}
}
static void shuffle() {
int j, temp;
for (int i = lib.length - 1; i > 1; i--) {
j = rng.nextInt(i + 1);
temp = lib[i];
lib[i] = lib[j];
lib[j] = temp;
}
}
}
You try to undermine our belief in Mill but your position is only supported by vague reasoning and no actual data (results, number proofs).
I agree with your assessment of Pesistratos: "I've played mill and it's not good enough. Your evidence with these cards that I don't even use won't sway me otherwise." We don't have a good matchup vs Tron without a Surgical, you can't out-mill them. He must not have faced a T3 Karn exiling your lands before. Pretty tough to mill them out "faster than they can beat us" when you have no lands to cast your spells. There's lots of other archetypes subbing in a GQ/Surgical Package to deal with an expected uptick in Tron in the meta. We're even better than that because we can GQ their land, or mill one into the yard as routes to extracting them. Once they can't assemble tron and need to get up to 7 lands before casting their bombs, then ya, we can mill them out faster.
I too am skeptical of Pesistratos' experience with the deck, and the fact that his first post on this site was knocking it without at least reading our experiences with different cards. I believe Mill can take people by surprise, it's just unfortunate that Emrakul basically knocks us out, otherwise I like our position in the meta at the moment.
I love your analysis of Mind Funeral, it lines up about with what I've found. Thanks for providing the code and the evidence for it. I landed 2 mind funerals (Funeral into Snap-Funeral) against a zoo deck last night and did 17 then 22 cards respectively. Game ender right there. Pesistratos' numbers look like what I'd expect if we were to assume that the first card milled is a land.
I'm looking forward to testing my list against a larger meta at GP Vancouver. I'm aiming to get a few of the side tournaments in, as well as the main event; I'll try to keep detailed notes on matchups and post a larger report here once it's over.
Hey ! Sorry for not participating that much to the debate these days, I read everything but don't have enough time to reply.
As for Twincast, I've tried it and obviously saw its potential power... but I also faced the "top deck problem". Snapcaster's ability is, i think, much more handy and versatile when you are facing hand disruption/counterspells or simply, when you run Mesmeric Orb. It gives you access to the exact card you need to cast, and not just the one you have in hand.
I am perfectly aware, though, that my previous lists suffered from the same flaw, and that I have to inspire from yours: I was (a huge percentage of the time) able to take control of the game and almost mill my opponent to death. Almost. My lists, from the moment I went for the removal based Esper list have lacked of reach and of this extra "oomph" that allow us to end the game EVEN if we are disrupted somehow. As a Burn player too, I totally recognised that situation where on paper you have enough stuff in hand to win, but one of your spells gets countered or discarded, and you end up topdecking card. But Burn has a more optimal list in term of raw power, and topdecking those 3 last damages is frequent. That is mainly the reason that brought me to bring back Shelldock Isles.
Keiths, when is your Grand Prix ? Do not hesitate to play test as much as possible and share with us your results so we can help you and find the perfect list for the new metagame. It would be awesome if you could do some good results there with our beloved deck !
Thanks Sky! The GP is next weekend, so very soon. I try to playtest often, but I have a 4 week old baby now, so it's not as easy to get out of the house to play magic cards
I'm with you on the Shelldock. I'm going to 2 instead of 1, but I can get behind 3 as a reasonable number too.
Some other questions I had:
I currently run some off-colour fetches (Strand and Marsh Flats) that allow me to grab a Watery Grave, which is nice. But I wonder if the 1 life lost for it is worth it; it's only 1 life if I see the card. Side benefit of also turning on Revolt for Fatal Push. Currently on 2 Strand and 1 Flats.
I debate for the slots where I'm running Twincast or Breaking, whether Trapmaker's Snare would be worthwhile. I would then run some combination of Traps (Ravenous for sure, maybe Whiplash) in the sideboard that can be tutored. It takes up deck slots, but a Ravenous Trap is basically our only hope against Emrakul. It's that, or I just concede any matches where Emmy comes down...
I debate Mesmeric Orbs and Jace's Phantasm in the board. Both allow me to get around Leyline of Sanctity (and the Phantasm might be able to straight kill vs an Emrakul deck too) but I've never been a fan of Phantasm as it dilutes the mill/control strategy. It would come in from the board G2 after (presumably) the opponent takes out their kill spells seeing I have no creatures (not even Crabs). Opportunity to run other creatures like Consuming Aberration (which also gets around Leyline and mills 1 land per spell you cast in addition to being a big threat).
I spotted Mind Grind, which is strictly worse than Mind Funeral unless you're casting some absurd amount of mana into it. BUT spotted that the test is "Each Opponent" so it also gets around Leyline. But still, I think this card is bad.
Another random spot is Bribery, which could beat an Emrakul deck at their own game via face smashes...
My debate for the sideboard comes down to: Do I run silver bullets to take out specific decks (Chalice vs Cheerios, Ravenous vs Emrakul, Spellskite vs infect, etc) or just a general strategy switch that lets me be more controlly (more spot removal, Orbs, Set Adrifts, maybe some Logic Knots) vs more aggressive mill (Twincast, Breaking//Entering). I don't like conceding against any Emrakul decks, I think Eldrazi Tron will also be common in addition to Nahiri.
Some other questions I had:
I currently run some off-colour fetches (Strand and Marsh Flats) that allow me to grab a Watery Grave, which is nice. But I wonder if the 1 life lost for it is worth it; it's only 1 life if I see the card. Side benefit of also turning on Revolt for Fatal Push. Currently on 2 Strand and 1 Flats.
I think 8 fetches is reasonable number. I like 3-2-2 split for Islands, Swamps and Watery Grave when I use Mesmeric Orb (always). Without Orb 2-2-2 seems good.
I debate for the slots where I'm running Twincast or Breaking, whether Trapmaker's Snare would be worthwhile. I would then run some combination of Traps (Ravenous for sure, maybe Whiplash) in the sideboard that can be tutored. It takes up deck slots, but a Ravenous Trap is basically our only hope against Emrakul. It's that, or I just concede any matches where Emmy comes down...
Twincast seems weak to me, double blue and a requirement to have another mill spell. Trapmaker's Snare is for budget builds imo. Vs decks that dont search Archive Trap is already meh, requiring 5 mana. 7 mana Archive Trap is a too low floor here and ceiling isnt high either. I didnt use Ravenous Trap, seems great vs Emrakul and Dredge, but if you think about Nihil Spellbomb its not that worse in this case and is significantly better in many others.
I debate Mesmeric Orbs and Jace's Phantasm in the board. Both allow me to get around Leyline of Sanctity (and the Phantasm might be able to straight kill vs an Emrakul deck too) but I've never been a fan of Phantasm as it dilutes the mill/control strategy. It would come in from the board G2 after (presumably) the opponent takes out their kill spells seeing I have no creatures (not even Crabs). Opportunity to run other creatures like Consuming Aberration (which also gets around Leyline and mills 1 land per spell you cast in addition to being a big threat).
I dont think Orb is a sideboard card, Jace's Phantasm is good in main, it kinda protects your Crabs. Consuming Aberration is too slow.
My debate for the sideboard comes down to: Do I run silver bullets to take out specific decks (Chalice vs Cheerios, Ravenous vs Emrakul, Spellskite vs infect, etc) or just a general strategy switch that lets me be more controlly (more spot removal, Orbs, Set Adrifts, maybe some Logic Knots) vs more aggressive mill (Twincast, Breaking//Entering). I don't like conceding against any Emrakul decks, I think Eldrazi Tron will also be common in addition to Nahiri.
Looking at my sideboard I use cards that are suitable for many matchups. I could use silver bullets but they should be really good, like real matchup hosers. Also it is important to use cards that dont have antisynergy with your deck. Mill cards I think are not suitable for sideboards.
Thanks guys! Awesome feedback on the sideboarding, I agree with all of your thoughts. I don't know what I was thinking, saying I should run mill spells in the sideboard, hahah.
I think 22 is the right number of lands, after reading up on https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/brewer-s-minute-how-many-lands. For my deck, this is 66 CMC/ 38 cards = 1.7368 average CMC. I used to run 21 lands, but 22 just feels a little more consistent. I could even see going up to 23 to account for having 3 GQ in the main (which act like spells when you do use them).
I added a second Shelldock Isle, because as pointed out earlier, it's great card advantage to close the game out with a last spell; totally worth it for CIPT. I'm going to stick with the 7 Fetches just because the colour fixing ability (fetch Watery Grave EOT) is nice, especially with 3 Ghost Quarter in the main.
I irrationally like Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, haha. I think I should probably replace it with a basic Island so it doesn't get hit with Blood Moon. Without Crabs it isn't worth it.
Darkslick Shores is awesome. pretty much all our spells are 3 CMC or below, so if it's our 4th land, coming into play tapped doesn't really stop us casting a spell for the turn.
I have gone back to 3 Mesmeric Orbs in the main. You guys are right, it helps a lot against control, and since I'm running some anti-aggro in the main (Fatal Push, Damnation), I should probably have some stuff that would be helpful against a control match in G1. I moved 2 Collective Brutality to the side, and cut down to 3 Fatal Push from 4.
I took the full set of Glimpses, Mind Funerals, and Archive traps, cuz I think they're the best spells. Combined with Orbs, it doesn't take many spells to mill an opponent out.
I went to 3 Fatal Push and 2 Go for the Throat in the main board. I figure it's a versatile enough package against most things; Push covers the stuff that GFFT misses vs Affinity, and GFFT covers for Eldrazi or Primetime or whatever while still being alright against smaller creatures (eg Goyf, Bob)
3 Surgicals because they work really well with Ghost Quarter to take out Tron or Eldrazi Temples if you can get them early. They also work really well with Inquisition of Kozilek letting you see their hand to most effectively use a Surgical on them. I contend a T1 IoK on the play is one of the strongest moves you can make against most decks in Modern.
3 Visions of Beyond, because you only usually need to cast 1 during a game. I could see using 2, but it's such a good spell to have or to topdeck that I want 3.
I stick by my decision to go Crab-less. I would say the majority of decks run creature removal (I run 7 myself, not counting IoK which often takes a creature), so it's almost certainly blanking 1 or 2 of their cards in game 1.
Snapcasters because they're awesomely versatile. Hit a mill spell, a kill spell, a draw spell, whatever you happen to need at the time.
In the sideboard:
Spellskite is a great card to have. Decent wall/blocker for CMC2, hoses burn, bogles, infect, and others. It can also protect Ensnaring Bridge if needed.
Chalice of the Void is versatile against a lot of decks. I think Chalice on 1 can hurt a lot of other decks much more than our deck. Chalice on 0 on the play can hurt Affinity, Cheeri0s, and other.
Running Mesmeric Orbs in the main again, I get to bring back one of my favorite versatile cards, Set Adrift. With an orb out it basically reads "U: Destroy target permanent" in the late game.
Logic Knot is also a great versatile card to have. Maybe you need to stop a Scapeshift, or a Ugin coming down, this hits pretty much anything you need to.
Collective Brutality is great to bring in against Burn and Infect. All the modes can be relevant, but I usually find myself pitching a spare land to the -2/-2 and the Duress effect, which can be pretty crippling. I moved these from the main to the side to make room for Orbs in the main.
Engineered Explosives is another card that's versatile like Chalice. Great at CMC 0, 1 or 2 that I can generate, but a Blood Moon would give me a third colour of mana to enable me to hit it, if I needed to!
I like Lost Legacy better than Sadistic Sacrament now that I think more about it. Lost Legacy worried me that I might name a card and not find it... but being in the sideboard, it only comes in for G2 and G3 when you know exactly what the card that is unbeatable is. Duh. I gotta get at least one of those to replace Sadistic Sac.
I like Nihil Spellbomb better than running the Ravenous Trap package. I could only find my Relic of Progenitus to put in now, but I think Nihil is better because you don't always need to hold up mana for it.
This seems like a solid list to me, but I welcome any feedback on the choices. I think you've all provided me with great options I'd overlooked (Nihil Spellbomb, Lost Legacy) that are improvements over what I've previously used. Thanks!
@KeithsGenome
I would say you are very high on creature removal (7 removals + 2 bridge + 2 inquisition + 4 snapcaster)
Mesmeric Orb imo is auto 4-of because you use many snapcasters, kinda low on mill and there are delve sideboard cards.
Shelldock Isle can easily be 4-of because you have little 1 turn plays
Sadistic Sacrament is uncastable 70% of times
2 Damnations main is overkill for me. Especially since this build has many other removals
I wouldnt use Chalice in your build because there are 11 1-cmc cards + 4 snapcasters
Thank you guys so much for your helpful insight!!!
I don't think 5 removals plus 2 sweepers is too much. Creatures form the majority of decks. Sure, there's spell based decks but against most opponents, a Damnation goes a long way. I've contemplated 3 in the main, 2 is definitely worth it.
With spot removal, I feel we are a midrange deck; I want the removal to be playable T2 or T3 vs a Goyf, TKS, Reality Smasher, etc. Holding a Murderous Cut while waiting for my Orb to kick in hurts. Versus Tron, we Extract a tron land and slow them down enough to kill them before Platinum Angel becomes relevant. To me, the non-Push removal comes down to Victim of Night or GFFT, I might go for one of each in that case. That said, Murderous Cut is a good card, so I can't fault anyone for playing it.
If you compare us to any other midrange deck (Jund, Grixis), they are running more spot removal than us in the main (terminate, abrupt decay, bolt, push, etc). I like the 5 spot removals and the 4 Snapcasters. Snapcaster can hit mill spells or kill spells, depending which I need at that point in time. This is an ideal set up in my opinion.
Lost Legacy over Sad Sac in the sideboard for sure, I just need to pick some up so I can include them.
Ghost Quarter is a land when I want it to be a land. If I'm gearing up for a Damnation, I don't need to sacrifice my Ghost Quarter, simple. 22 lands is the amount I like.
Orb is the slowest Mill card in the deck. I'm fine with 3 of them instead of 4, there's nothing else I want to take out for the 4th copy. Delve cards in the sideboard, I like the versatility of Logic Knot and Set Adrift - they catch pretty much everything. Murderous Cut is great but overlaps with my other spot removal, I'm already covered as far as killing creatures goes, just gotta remove other permanent types (Enchantment, Planeswalker)
I am going to roll with 2 Shelldocks. I can see going up to 3, but 4 is definitely overkill in my opinion, regardless of T1 plays. I wouldn't want 2 in my starting hand - maybe if they were also UB lands! Haha, I wish.
IoK is amazing. Like I said, I think it is one of the strongest T1 plays (on the play) in the game. The fact that it combos so well with our Surgicals is gravy on top. I love to see one in my opening hand, but wouldn't want to see 2 there. Why do you say it's a 4-of or none-of? I would run either 2 or 3 myself. I see the current Jund list runs 3.
Chalice is great set to 0 or 1. I'll side out my Pushes and Visions if needed, a Chalice on 1 against burn hurts them a LOT more than us. If I have lots of 1-drops in my hand, I might not Chalice until T3 or T4. It means they can't close out with a bolt-snap-bolt, or lava spike, or... Chalice on 0 on the play vs Affinity? Goodbye Mox Opal, or flooding the board on their turn. There are lots of very useful, versatile ways to play it. If I pulled Chalice out, what would you suggest I replace it with?
I would consider also sticking Pithing Needle in the sideboard as a way to handle annoying things (Nahiri, Liliana) but I can't think of much else that I would target with it, and thus think Chalice is a better, more versatile, card to have access to.
There are many matchups where sweeper is not needed at all
Also as you take a more controlish approach Mesmeric Orb can easily be your best mill spell calculated in mill/card. The fact that its slow is least relevant of all mill builds. The same for Shelldock Isle, its drawback is most significant in fast mill builds and your build can use its advantage in least painful way.
As for sb slots I like having third Crypt Incursion vs aggro decks, also Dispel or Negate can be good substitutes for removal vs creature light decks, also they work nicely with Snapcaster. Also you can use more graveyard hate. Or another Fatal Push for aggro decks. Btw Engineered Explosions usually played in 3c decks for maximum potential.
Debating going back to 4x Push and upping to the 4th Surgical; both good outs against this deck and good against others. Maybe cutting the GFFT from the main, or moving Bridges to the sideboard. Seems like a scary deck that I haven't yet played against.
Utilizing it will trigger Revolt on Fatal Push. That's a really good reason to keep it - you get Revolt, without losing anything. You don't even lose 1 life for a fetch, or a card from Orb.
I guess a major takeaway is: if you ever see Grapeshot in a graveyard, EXILE IT!
Hurkyl's Recall on their end step will also devastate them.
Utilizing it will trigger Revolt on Fatal Push. That's a really good reason to keep it - you get Revolt, without losing anything. You don't even lose 1 life for a fetch, or a card from Orb.
I guess a major takeaway is: if you ever see Grapeshot in a graveyard, EXILE IT!
Hurkyl's Recall on their end step will also devastate them.
Dude. You're a hero, I'd never spotted that and was about to take it out of my deck. Fixes mana colour and triggers revolt, vs hurt vs Blood Moon. I'll leave it in.
Definitely gotta target Grapeshot, but I think they usually only run 1 or 2 copies of it so it might not be in the yard to hit. I heard my buddy faced it on Monday night and the deck was also running a copy of Empty the Warrens.
What does Hurkyll's Recall on their end step do to stop them? They run it themselves, they wanna bring their cheeri0s back up to their hand. I think they run it as the bonus copy of Retract, and also to help vs Chalice on 0.
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First and foremost, Mill is an aggro deck. We are racing against a very inefficient clock. In MTG, most clocks go to 20, but ours goes to 60, and then, often to 75. So why do we race this clock? Often, our opponents are unprepared for the different race, or not as prepared. Mill aims to take advantage of that lack of preparation. Other times, the meta may swing more heavily in favor of mill, becoming combo heavy, which Mill excels against.
Mill really likes to beat combo decks on turn 2, with a Glimpse the Unthinkable, followed by a Surgical Extraction.
Mill is not a control deck. Aggro and control are opposite play styles. Oddly enough, because Mill is not fast enough as an aggro deck, we add elements of control to the deck to gain time. This, however, does not make Mill a control deck. Too many control cards will make it such though, to the detriment of the deck.
In our 60 card main deck, we aim to strike that perfect balance of aggression and control that enables us to win. The crucial balance point is always found on the control end, and never on the aggro end. To make this simple, imagine a long scale, with pure aggro at one end, and pure control at the other. A pure aggro Mill deck will very rarely win, because in a turn 4 format like Modern, we simply do not have enough powerful mill cards to ensure that we can mill them out. Assuming the opponent keeps a 7 card opening hand, and that we are on the draw, we must mill an average of 13 cards per turn, and that would win the game on the 4th turn - after our opponent has had his 4th turn. That is 1 Archive Trap per turn, only to lose. Clearly, we must slow the game down. We do this by adding control to the game.
A pure gas aggro deck will rely on blowout cards to win the game. Cards like Temur Battle Rage, Become Immense, Mutagenic Growth, etc, can accelerate the damage they do. Mill cannot do that. It has a pace to it, limits. We cannot play Mind Sculpt, and then add on more mill with an interrupt, thus mill demands the controlling restraint upon the opponent. (Yes, I know Twincast is a thing.)
The perfect Mill deck slides the bar toward control only as much as is necessary to win. Too far, and we are inefficient. We drag the game out so long the opponent pushes through, or finds a way around us. Too little, and we lose for being too weak against opposing strategies.
The difficulty comes in the form of every deck on the other side of the table requiring a different balance point of us.
Every card in the deck is assigned an aggro or control role. Even lands can have an aggro or control role. For instance, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, is an aggro card, because it directly feeds an aggro strategy in Hedron Crab. The same applies to fetchlands. On the other end of the scale, a land like Shelldock Isle is considered control, because it is reacting to a set milestone. The same applies to Visions of Beyond. Yes, the result is usually a furtherance of our mill strategy, but it remains a control role. Basic lands have an aggro role up to a certain number - after that number, the assume a negative control role, slowing us down with out any net benefit. We are not assigning a number to this, because the number changes with every game, let alone every opponent. Any time you draw an unneeded land (flooded) you have reached your aggro/control tipping point. This applies to deckbuilding as well as during play.
Obviously, cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable, Mind Funeral, Mesmeric Orb etc are aggro cards. We need not spend much time discussing those. The real question is, what constitutes control? The simple answer is, anything that reacts to the opponent's attempted line of play. By this definition, Archive Trap is a control card, oddly enough. Fatal Push and Path to Exile are control cards. Crypt Incursion. Your entire sideboard.
The crucial element in building your deck is to only include exactly enough control to defeat his plan. Some are a 4 of, like Archive Trap. Others the line is much, much blurrier. For instance, Crypt Incursion? How many copies do we run? In my opinion, Crypt Incursion is the tell all card. An aggro mill will run 2. If mill runs 1, it's going very aggro,and needs to justify only having one. If it runs 3, it is becoming decidedly controlling, and again, needs to justify it.
What about Surgical Extraction/Extirpate? Are they mill or control? They are control cards, affecting the line of play the opponent can take from that point on. Ghost Quarter? Control. Snapcaster Mage? Control.
The number of aggro cards are very few in a mill deck. The more aggressive, or 'all in' the mill, the more targeted the control needs to be. For instance, a mill deck using Mesmeric Orb needs to have more specific control
than a deck without it. It needs to have a different response. In a mill deck with MO, you are hitting the opponent constantly, but most importantly, during his untap phase. This requires instant reactability, even if you are tapped out. For this reason, I'd use Surgical Extraction over Extirpate, because the ability to remove a threat needs that immediate response before he can possibly cast a 2nd copy out of hand before we could wait to untap. If I run Tome Scour, I run a higher amount on Surgical over Extirpate to react faster. If I run Fatal Push or Path to Exile, I can use Extirpate, because I have more safety valves.
I hope that this explanation of Mill as a marriage of aggro and control, and the proper definition of every card as aggro or control aids in finding that perfect balance.
@Peisitratos561
I would use Surgical in your build vs Abzan Company, Kiki-Jiki, Ad Nauseam, Dredge, Living End, Eggs, Tron, Reanimator, Amulet Titan.
I made a computer simulation to calculate Mind Funeral's performance. These are the results:
lands in deck - milled on average
16 - 14.5
18 - 13
20 - 12
24 - 10
28 - 8.5
Keep in mind fetches, searching for basics via Ghost Quarter and Path and Surgical Extraction improve these numbers.
And I think Mill is competitive. I have some statistics, results and experience with the deck to say that I didnt come up with this conclusion overnight.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Hit them T1, and then Ghost Quarter their shock or other dual T3, and bluff that you have another in hand, they'll decline to search. I've done that several times. At that point, you've made it a control card.
I think I'm the only one mentioning Twincast in this thread. I've played it previously, it's awesome and gives us that final bomb we need to close out the game. T4 Glimpse - Twincast or T5 Funeral - Twincast really does some damage.
Regards to Snapcaster, I agree, Snappy is better, I already run 4. But to point out, Glimpse Snap Glimpse is 6 mana, where Glimpse - Twin is 4 mana. In terms of playing it like a bomb, Twincast wins a little bit (I realize Snappy is generating more value though). You can even Glimpse - Snap - Twincast or vice versa, once again for 6 mana though. The debate for me is whether it's worth having that bomb and top-decking Twincast when you need mill spells, versus running Breaking and having the guaranteed mill albeit a little less effective. There's also the edge cases of Twincast on your other spells (Fatal Push, Surgical, Collective Brutality) in a pinch, though using 2 cards and milling zero is getting away from the game plan a bit. But sometimes it needs to be done. I'm seriously debating between the options!
Daeyel, thanks for your opinion piece there. I don't agree with a lot of it, but you clearly put some thought into it and it's always good to read other people's thoughts. I don't think I've seen a list from you in awhile (aside from that Sanity Grinding one, lol). What are you running these days?
I have always looked at mill as a less efficient burn deck. That being said.....you cannot look at it as needing 60 "damage" more like 50. Opening hand is 5-7 with muligans. Plus they take 1 "damage" every turn. Tome scour is close to shock, breaking or glimpse is close to one of the 2 mana 3 damage cards. crab or ord are our Eidolon of the Great Revel. Because we are less efficient then burn slowing down opponents is needed or more mill. Slowing opponents down with control cards like prison, bridge or the like is one way. Or you go heavier on mill cards running 4 ofs scour, breaking, glimps, funeral, trap or any other mill.
Unlike some decks in modern where you have only a few "flex" cards and otherwise one way build, we will never have a one right build. Maybe some day we will be a competitive deck until then I will continue to figure it out
This is what I have been working on lately
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Sunken Hollow
2 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
Mill
4 Hedron Crab
4 Archive Trap
4 Breaking // Entering
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mesmeric Orb
4 Mind Funeral
4 Tome Scour
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fatal Push
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Yahenni's Expertise
3 Crypt Incursion
2 Darkness
2 Extirpate
2 Mana Leak
2 Profane Memento
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Set Adrift
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
I'm not willing to dink around and hope they do not pull one of their other 3 copies before I can mill them out. Nope. I'm applying my 'coup de grace' right then and there. Do as you like, I don't give 2nd chances.
Not only that, but it slows down and hurts non combo decks. Do you know why you use Surgical Extraction on Tarmogoyf?
Because you just made him the 5/6 everyone fears by milling the opponent. I don't know if you have looked at the mill cards, but we have very little chance to mill them out in the 4 turn clock Goyf just gave us. Your best hope is Mind Funeral, which you declare unplayable. (What you do against Chalice of the Void on 2 beside scoop, IDK.) When I Mind Funeral an opponent, I find they usually mill 12 - 14, and are really frustrated/tilted by it. That's an additional advantage to me when they feel that pressure. They stop playing around cards like Archive Trap.
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
This is my program and its results are consistent with another calculations I found in google.
class MindFuneral {
static int DECK_SIZE = 60;
static int REPEATS = 1000 * 1000;
static int[] lib = new int[DECK_SIZE];
static Random rng = new Random();
public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception {
try {
int lands = Integer.parseInt(args[0]);
System.out.println(getMilled(lands));
} catch (Exception e) {
e.printStackTrace();
}
}
static String getMilled(int lands) {
init(lands);
int milled = 0;
for (int i = 0; i < REPEATS; i++) {
shuffle();
int j = 0;
int milledLands = 0;
do {
int milledCard = lib[j];
if (milledCard == 0) { // land
milledLands++;
}
milled++;
j++;
} while (milledLands < 4);
}
return String.format("%.1f", (double) milled / REPEATS);
}
static void init(int lands) {
for (int i = 0; i < lib.length; i++) {
if (i < lands) {
lib[i] = 0; // land
} else {
lib[i] = 1; // spell
}
}
}
static void shuffle() {
int j, temp;
for (int i = lib.length - 1; i > 1; i--) {
j = rng.nextInt(i + 1);
temp = lib[i];
lib[i] = lib[j];
lib[j] = temp;
}
}
}
You try to undermine our belief in Mill but your position is only supported by vague reasoning and no actual data (results, number proofs).
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I agree with your assessment of Pesistratos: "I've played mill and it's not good enough. Your evidence with these cards that I don't even use won't sway me otherwise." We don't have a good matchup vs Tron without a Surgical, you can't out-mill them. He must not have faced a T3 Karn exiling your lands before. Pretty tough to mill them out "faster than they can beat us" when you have no lands to cast your spells. There's lots of other archetypes subbing in a GQ/Surgical Package to deal with an expected uptick in Tron in the meta. We're even better than that because we can GQ their land, or mill one into the yard as routes to extracting them. Once they can't assemble tron and need to get up to 7 lands before casting their bombs, then ya, we can mill them out faster.
I too am skeptical of Pesistratos' experience with the deck, and the fact that his first post on this site was knocking it without at least reading our experiences with different cards. I believe Mill can take people by surprise, it's just unfortunate that Emrakul basically knocks us out, otherwise I like our position in the meta at the moment.
I love your analysis of Mind Funeral, it lines up about with what I've found. Thanks for providing the code and the evidence for it. I landed 2 mind funerals (Funeral into Snap-Funeral) against a zoo deck last night and did 17 then 22 cards respectively. Game ender right there. Pesistratos' numbers look like what I'd expect if we were to assume that the first card milled is a land.
I'm looking forward to testing my list against a larger meta at GP Vancouver. I'm aiming to get a few of the side tournaments in, as well as the main event; I'll try to keep detailed notes on matchups and post a larger report here once it's over.
Thanks Sky! The GP is next weekend, so very soon. I try to playtest often, but I have a 4 week old baby now, so it's not as easy to get out of the house to play magic cards
I'm with you on the Shelldock. I'm going to 2 instead of 1, but I can get behind 3 as a reasonable number too.
Some other questions I had:
I currently run some off-colour fetches (Strand and Marsh Flats) that allow me to grab a Watery Grave, which is nice. But I wonder if the 1 life lost for it is worth it; it's only 1 life if I see the card. Side benefit of also turning on Revolt for Fatal Push. Currently on 2 Strand and 1 Flats.
I debate for the slots where I'm running Twincast or Breaking, whether Trapmaker's Snare would be worthwhile. I would then run some combination of Traps (Ravenous for sure, maybe Whiplash) in the sideboard that can be tutored. It takes up deck slots, but a Ravenous Trap is basically our only hope against Emrakul. It's that, or I just concede any matches where Emmy comes down...
I debate Mesmeric Orbs and Jace's Phantasm in the board. Both allow me to get around Leyline of Sanctity (and the Phantasm might be able to straight kill vs an Emrakul deck too) but I've never been a fan of Phantasm as it dilutes the mill/control strategy. It would come in from the board G2 after (presumably) the opponent takes out their kill spells seeing I have no creatures (not even Crabs). Opportunity to run other creatures like Consuming Aberration (which also gets around Leyline and mills 1 land per spell you cast in addition to being a big threat).
I spotted Mind Grind, which is strictly worse than Mind Funeral unless you're casting some absurd amount of mana into it. BUT spotted that the test is "Each Opponent" so it also gets around Leyline. But still, I think this card is bad.
Another random spot is Bribery, which could beat an Emrakul deck at their own game via face smashes...
My debate for the sideboard comes down to: Do I run silver bullets to take out specific decks (Chalice vs Cheerios, Ravenous vs Emrakul, Spellskite vs infect, etc) or just a general strategy switch that lets me be more controlly (more spot removal, Orbs, Set Adrifts, maybe some Logic Knots) vs more aggressive mill (Twincast, Breaking//Entering). I don't like conceding against any Emrakul decks, I think Eldrazi Tron will also be common in addition to Nahiri.
Mill 10 and see if you can figure out their deck. If you can, you know what you need to surgically extract.
Sideboard from there. I prefer a very narrow sideboard aimed at my worst matchups.
Twincast seems weak to me, double blue and a requirement to have another mill spell. Trapmaker's Snare is for budget builds imo. Vs decks that dont search Archive Trap is already meh, requiring 5 mana. 7 mana Archive Trap is a too low floor here and ceiling isnt high either. I didnt use Ravenous Trap, seems great vs Emrakul and Dredge, but if you think about Nihil Spellbomb its not that worse in this case and is significantly better in many others.
I dont think Orb is a sideboard card, Jace's Phantasm is good in main, it kinda protects your Crabs. Consuming Aberration is too slow.
Looking at my sideboard I use cards that are suitable for many matchups. I could use silver bullets but they should be really good, like real matchup hosers. Also it is important to use cards that dont have antisynergy with your deck. Mill cards I think are not suitable for sideboards.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Here's my current list:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Shelldock Isle
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Watery Grave
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
3 Swamp
Spells 29
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
3 Visions of Beyond
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Crypt Incursion
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Fatal Push
2 Go for the Throat
2 Damnation
4 Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts
3 Mesmeric Orb
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spellskite
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Set Adrift
2 Logic Knot
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Nihil Spellbomb
I think 22 is the right number of lands, after reading up on https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/brewer-s-minute-how-many-lands. For my deck, this is 66 CMC/ 38 cards = 1.7368 average CMC. I used to run 21 lands, but 22 just feels a little more consistent. I could even see going up to 23 to account for having 3 GQ in the main (which act like spells when you do use them).
I added a second Shelldock Isle, because as pointed out earlier, it's great card advantage to close the game out with a last spell; totally worth it for CIPT. I'm going to stick with the 7 Fetches just because the colour fixing ability (fetch Watery Grave EOT) is nice, especially with 3 Ghost Quarter in the main.
I irrationally like Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, haha. I think I should probably replace it with a basic Island so it doesn't get hit with Blood Moon. Without Crabs it isn't worth it.
Darkslick Shores is awesome. pretty much all our spells are 3 CMC or below, so if it's our 4th land, coming into play tapped doesn't really stop us casting a spell for the turn.
I have gone back to 3 Mesmeric Orbs in the main. You guys are right, it helps a lot against control, and since I'm running some anti-aggro in the main (Fatal Push, Damnation), I should probably have some stuff that would be helpful against a control match in G1. I moved 2 Collective Brutality to the side, and cut down to 3 Fatal Push from 4.
I took the full set of Glimpses, Mind Funerals, and Archive traps, cuz I think they're the best spells. Combined with Orbs, it doesn't take many spells to mill an opponent out.
I went to 3 Fatal Push and 2 Go for the Throat in the main board. I figure it's a versatile enough package against most things; Push covers the stuff that GFFT misses vs Affinity, and GFFT covers for Eldrazi or Primetime or whatever while still being alright against smaller creatures (eg Goyf, Bob)
3 Surgicals because they work really well with Ghost Quarter to take out Tron or Eldrazi Temples if you can get them early. They also work really well with Inquisition of Kozilek letting you see their hand to most effectively use a Surgical on them. I contend a T1 IoK on the play is one of the strongest moves you can make against most decks in Modern.
3 Visions of Beyond, because you only usually need to cast 1 during a game. I could see using 2, but it's such a good spell to have or to topdeck that I want 3.
I stick by my decision to go Crab-less. I would say the majority of decks run creature removal (I run 7 myself, not counting IoK which often takes a creature), so it's almost certainly blanking 1 or 2 of their cards in game 1.
Snapcasters because they're awesomely versatile. Hit a mill spell, a kill spell, a draw spell, whatever you happen to need at the time.
In the sideboard:
Spellskite is a great card to have. Decent wall/blocker for CMC2, hoses burn, bogles, infect, and others. It can also protect Ensnaring Bridge if needed.
Chalice of the Void is versatile against a lot of decks. I think Chalice on 1 can hurt a lot of other decks much more than our deck. Chalice on 0 on the play can hurt Affinity, Cheeri0s, and other.
Running Mesmeric Orbs in the main again, I get to bring back one of my favorite versatile cards, Set Adrift. With an orb out it basically reads "U: Destroy target permanent" in the late game.
Logic Knot is also a great versatile card to have. Maybe you need to stop a Scapeshift, or a Ugin coming down, this hits pretty much anything you need to.
Collective Brutality is great to bring in against Burn and Infect. All the modes can be relevant, but I usually find myself pitching a spare land to the -2/-2 and the Duress effect, which can be pretty crippling. I moved these from the main to the side to make room for Orbs in the main.
Engineered Explosives is another card that's versatile like Chalice. Great at CMC 0, 1 or 2 that I can generate, but a Blood Moon would give me a third colour of mana to enable me to hit it, if I needed to!
I like Lost Legacy better than Sadistic Sacrament now that I think more about it. Lost Legacy worried me that I might name a card and not find it... but being in the sideboard, it only comes in for G2 and G3 when you know exactly what the card that is unbeatable is. Duh. I gotta get at least one of those to replace Sadistic Sac.
I like Nihil Spellbomb better than running the Ravenous Trap package. I could only find my Relic of Progenitus to put in now, but I think Nihil is better because you don't always need to hold up mana for it.
This seems like a solid list to me, but I welcome any feedback on the choices. I think you've all provided me with great options I'd overlooked (Nihil Spellbomb, Lost Legacy) that are improvements over what I've previously used. Thanks!
I would say you are very high on creature removal (7 removals + 2 bridge + 2 inquisition + 4 snapcaster)
Mesmeric Orb imo is auto 4-of because you use many snapcasters, kinda low on mill and there are delve sideboard cards.
Shelldock Isle can easily be 4-of because you have little 1 turn plays
Sadistic Sacrament is uncastable 70% of times
2 Damnations main is overkill for me. Especially since this build has many other removals
I wouldnt use Chalice in your build because there are 11 1-cmc cards + 4 snapcasters
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I don't think 5 removals plus 2 sweepers is too much. Creatures form the majority of decks. Sure, there's spell based decks but against most opponents, a Damnation goes a long way. I've contemplated 3 in the main, 2 is definitely worth it.
With spot removal, I feel we are a midrange deck; I want the removal to be playable T2 or T3 vs a Goyf, TKS, Reality Smasher, etc. Holding a Murderous Cut while waiting for my Orb to kick in hurts. Versus Tron, we Extract a tron land and slow them down enough to kill them before Platinum Angel becomes relevant. To me, the non-Push removal comes down to Victim of Night or GFFT, I might go for one of each in that case. That said, Murderous Cut is a good card, so I can't fault anyone for playing it.
If you compare us to any other midrange deck (Jund, Grixis), they are running more spot removal than us in the main (terminate, abrupt decay, bolt, push, etc). I like the 5 spot removals and the 4 Snapcasters. Snapcaster can hit mill spells or kill spells, depending which I need at that point in time. This is an ideal set up in my opinion.
Lost Legacy over Sad Sac in the sideboard for sure, I just need to pick some up so I can include them.
Ghost Quarter is a land when I want it to be a land. If I'm gearing up for a Damnation, I don't need to sacrifice my Ghost Quarter, simple. 22 lands is the amount I like.
Orb is the slowest Mill card in the deck. I'm fine with 3 of them instead of 4, there's nothing else I want to take out for the 4th copy. Delve cards in the sideboard, I like the versatility of Logic Knot and Set Adrift - they catch pretty much everything. Murderous Cut is great but overlaps with my other spot removal, I'm already covered as far as killing creatures goes, just gotta remove other permanent types (Enchantment, Planeswalker)
I am going to roll with 2 Shelldocks. I can see going up to 3, but 4 is definitely overkill in my opinion, regardless of T1 plays. I wouldn't want 2 in my starting hand - maybe if they were also UB lands! Haha, I wish.
IoK is amazing. Like I said, I think it is one of the strongest T1 plays (on the play) in the game. The fact that it combos so well with our Surgicals is gravy on top. I love to see one in my opening hand, but wouldn't want to see 2 there. Why do you say it's a 4-of or none-of? I would run either 2 or 3 myself. I see the current Jund list runs 3.
Chalice is great set to 0 or 1. I'll side out my Pushes and Visions if needed, a Chalice on 1 against burn hurts them a LOT more than us. If I have lots of 1-drops in my hand, I might not Chalice until T3 or T4. It means they can't close out with a bolt-snap-bolt, or lava spike, or... Chalice on 0 on the play vs Affinity? Goodbye Mox Opal, or flooding the board on their turn. There are lots of very useful, versatile ways to play it. If I pulled Chalice out, what would you suggest I replace it with?
I would consider also sticking Pithing Needle in the sideboard as a way to handle annoying things (Nahiri, Liliana) but I can't think of much else that I would target with it, and thus think Chalice is a better, more versatile, card to have access to.
Also as you take a more controlish approach Mesmeric Orb can easily be your best mill spell calculated in mill/card. The fact that its slow is least relevant of all mill builds. The same for Shelldock Isle, its drawback is most significant in fast mill builds and your build can use its advantage in least painful way.
As for sb slots I like having third Crypt Incursion vs aggro decks, also Dispel or Negate can be good substitutes for removal vs creature light decks, also they work nicely with Snapcaster. Also you can use more graveyard hate. Or another Fatal Push for aggro decks. Btw Engineered Explosions usually played in 3c decks for maximum potential.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
http://modernnexus.com/the-cheeri0s-series-gp-vancouver-deck-of-choice/
Debating going back to 4x Push and upping to the 4th Surgical; both good outs against this deck and good against others. Maybe cutting the GFFT from the main, or moving Bridges to the sideboard. Seems like a scary deck that I haven't yet played against.
Utilizing it will trigger Revolt on Fatal Push. That's a really good reason to keep it - you get Revolt, without losing anything. You don't even lose 1 life for a fetch, or a card from Orb.
I guess a major takeaway is: if you ever see Grapeshot in a graveyard, EXILE IT!
Hurkyl's Recall on their end step will also devastate them.
Dude. You're a hero, I'd never spotted that and was about to take it out of my deck. Fixes mana colour and triggers revolt, vs hurt vs Blood Moon. I'll leave it in.
Definitely gotta target Grapeshot, but I think they usually only run 1 or 2 copies of it so it might not be in the yard to hit. I heard my buddy faced it on Monday night and the deck was also running a copy of Empty the Warrens.
What does Hurkyll's Recall on their end step do to stop them? They run it themselves, they wanna bring their cheeri0s back up to their hand. I think they run it as the bonus copy of Retract, and also to help vs Chalice on 0.