Set Adrift is an awesome card if you're running Mesmeric Orbs; it usually only costs U beyond turn 3, it hits just about anything (artifacts, enchantments, creatures, planeswalkers), and since you put it on top of your opponents library, it usually gets milled away next turn instead of just being recast. I run 2 in my sideboard but have debated between it and Echoing Truth because of instant speed and always costing the same if you don't get an early Orb.
Replace Jace's Phantasm with Mind Funeral. Replace Breaking/Entering with Glimpse the Unthinkable if you can afford it. Not a fan of Manic Scribe, but others like it.
A Visions of Beyond would not be out of place, either.
Other than that, It looks pretty good. Maybe put in a Kozilek or Ulamog to recycle your graveyard?
Replace Jace's Phantasm with Mind Funeral. Replace Breaking/Entering with Glimpse the Unthinkable if you can afford it. Not a fan of Manic Scribe, but others like it.
A Visions of Beyond would not be out of place, either.
Other than that, It looks pretty good. Maybe put in a Kozilek or Ulamog to recycle your graveyard?
Jace's Phantasm with Mind funeral would be decent. I like the creatures, but with Fatal Puah, he may die to easily.
I'm going to get Glimpse's when I can afford it.
I took out visions because it's a dead card when going for Ensnaring Bridge lock.
Your list is pretty stock with the exception of swapping a few cards. Nobody has experience playing with Brutality. I tested it briefly and thought it was awesome on turn 2 into a turn 3 Bridge but very mediocre or whatever in situations where Bridge wasn't in your hand. The latter situation occurred more frequently than the former so I kind of moved on. I may be wrong in this and I would suggest testing the card a lot against a range of matchups so you can form your own opinion on the card. Try cutting bridges and scribes from your deck and playtest with Collective Brutality and see how much you like it when you don't have the synergies. Does the card hold up for you? If you have to have other cards in hand or on the board for a card then maybe it isn't worth the mainboard slot and only a sideboard relevant card. I only say this because I tested the same number of Brutalities (2) with the same number of Bridges (3) and the dream scenario did not come up very often. I would test Brutality out for your own sake though to see how much you like it before you listen to someone on here telling you to cut it.
Also... Your sideboard... Do you know how you will board against different matchups... Jund, Abzan, Burn, Infect,Merfolk, Valakut, etc... Does each card have a purpose? Also, which cards are really bad in your maindeck in specific matchups. See if you have sufficient sideboard slots to replace your truly awful cards like Ensnaring Bridge vs Infect/Affinity. I think a great card to offset Ensnaring Bridge with is Profane Memento. Bridge has trouble against fast decks that go wide, whereas you don't want Profane Memento against 15/15 Emrakuls or 10/10 Slippery Bogles etc... For the most part one card is preferred over the other in each matchup.
I like the recommendation of Fatal Push over Dismember because Mill can't afford to throw away 4 life and if you keep it in the sideboard you know it will be an awesome card when you bring it in.
Seems some poor sap on MTGO led off the game with a fetch, grabbed an Island, tapped it for Serum Visions and in response, opponent slammed him with all 4 Archive Trap in his opening hand for a turn 0 win.
Hang onto your hats, we could see some spikes on U/B/x Mill staples over the next 24 hours.
It's a brutal matchup. Nobody really plays the deck enough to even try to beat it... Being Esper colors would definitely be out of the question though.
I played again last night and got a bunch of repeats in against Bant Eldrazi. It's definitely going to be a tough matchup. I think I went 2-5 against him in 7 games (with 6 of those post-sideboarding). The games I won I landed Damnation, simply put. In fact, it was Damnation > Snapcaster Mage Damnation > second Damnation. The second game I won we were on top-decks and he used a Stubborn Denial on my Visions of Beyond when I had 6 mana available, so I cast Damnation which allowed me to draw into my mill spell 2 turns later.
One other thing I'll say, I aim to Surgical Extraction on any of (in priority) Eldrazi Temple > Reality Smasher > Thought-Knot Seer. If there's already a Temple in play, I might not bother extracting it and would try to strip their threats directly - they're pretty neutered without those.
My thoughts on the matchup are that outside of Damnation and a few kill spells that slow him down, we're not going to beat them in the long game - we've got to get under them. Towards that end, I've thought about possibly taking out Mesmeric Orbs in favour of something faster. In my case, I think it's either Breaking//Entering, or Twincast. I like Mesmeric Orbs, and they're our only win condition through a Leyline of Sanctity, so they're better post-board when the game gets a little slower/grindier and Leylines are potentially coming down. Otherwise they're a bit slow. With the meta slowing down, I think we have a better chance at racing versus a larger percentage of the field.
My concern is then using up 4 sideboard slots (or maybe just 3) on Mesmeric Orbs. I feel my sideboard is pretty tight at the moment:
2 Hurkyll's Recall for Affinity
2 Chalice of the Void for Cheeri0s/Affinity
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night for more creature based decks (Grixis Delver, Bant Eldrazi) where I'd sub some in for Fatal Push
2 Spellskite for Burn/Infect
2 Set Adrift as a nice catch-all delay against enchantments, planeswalkers, artifacts (would probably sub for Echoing Truth if I took Orbs out)
1 Ceremonious Rejection as a throw-in against Eldrazi or Tron
2 Collective Brutality are also good against Burn/Infect
2 Thoughtseize are also good against big mana decks
and I'm not sure what I'd take out. Possibly Collective Brutality and Ceremonious Rejection.
I'm going to try out with 4x Twincast subbed in for 4x Mesmeric Orbs and see if I can have a better shot at him.
I also played a matchup against a burn/zoo deck (burn with Tarmogoyfs and Ghor-Clan Rampagers basically) and beat him 2-1. Crypt Incursion just straight wins that match when it comes down (27 and 39 life gained per game, respectively) without being Skullcracked or Atarka's Command, as long as you can get some cards into their yard. Fatal Push is also an all-star, I run 4 in the main. I'm pretty comfortable with this matchup and think my deck is favoured except against a nut draw. The only match I lost, I got him Archive Trap T0, didn't see a Tarmogoyf in the yard, but Extracted all his Eidolons. He went T2 Goyf into T3 Goyf, both of which came down as 5/6s and finished me with Atarka's Command on T4.
what do we thing about our matchup vs ponza? ran into it today on mtgo an it did not go well(understatement)
Its a fair matchup, not easy, not tough imo. They can outtempo us by destroying our lands or Blood Moon. But their clock isnt fast. They like to tap permanents, so orb is good, they run a fair amount of searches so Archive Trap is good also. Platinum Emperion/Madcap Experiment tech isnt hard to beat. Try lower your curve, fetch basics, have some removal for Stormbreath Dragon and Inferno Titan. UB is better here.
I played again last night and got a bunch of repeats in against Bant Eldrazi. It's definitely going to be a tough matchup. I think I went 2-5 against him in 7 games (with 6 of those post-sideboarding). The games I won I landed Damnation, simply put. In fact, it was Damnation > Snapcaster Mage Damnation > second Damnation. The second game I won we were on top-decks and he used a Stubborn Denial on my Visions of Beyond when I had 6 mana available, so I cast Damnation which allowed me to draw into my mill spell 2 turns later.
One other thing I'll say, I aim to Surgical Extraction on any of (in priority) Eldrazi Temple > Reality Smasher > Thought-Knot Seer. If there's already a Temple in play, I might not bother extracting it and would try to strip their threats directly - they're pretty neutered without those.
My thoughts on the matchup are that outside of Damnation and a few kill spells that slow him down, we're not going to beat them in the long game - we've got to get under them. Towards that end, I've thought about possibly taking out Mesmeric Orbs in favour of something faster. In my case, I think it's either Breaking//Entering, or Twincast. I like Mesmeric Orbs, and they're our only win condition through a Leyline of Sanctity, so they're better post-board when the game gets a little slower/grindier and Leylines are potentially coming down. Otherwise they're a bit slow. With the meta slowing down, I think we have a better chance at racing versus a larger percentage of the field.
My concern is then using up 4 sideboard slots (or maybe just 3) on Mesmeric Orbs. I feel my sideboard is pretty tight at the moment:
2 Hurkyll's Recall for Affinity
2 Chalice of the Void for Cheeri0s/Affinity
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night for more creature based decks (Grixis Delver, Bant Eldrazi) where I'd sub some in for Fatal Push
2 Spellskite for Burn/Infect
2 Set Adrift as a nice catch-all delay against enchantments, planeswalkers, artifacts (would probably sub for Echoing Truth if I took Orbs out)
1 Ceremonious Rejection as a throw-in against Eldrazi or Tron
2 Collective Brutality are also good against Burn/Infect
2 Thoughtseize are also good against big mana decks
and I'm not sure what I'd take out. Possibly Collective Brutality and Ceremonious Rejection.
I'm going to try out with 4x Twincast subbed in for 4x Mesmeric Orbs and see if I can have a better shot at him.
I also played a matchup against a burn/zoo deck (burn with Tarmogoyfs and Ghor-Clan Rampagers basically) and beat him 2-1. Crypt Incursion just straight wins that match when it comes down (27 and 39 life gained per game, respectively) without being Skullcracked or Atarka's Command, as long as you can get some cards into their yard. Fatal Push is also an all-star, I run 4 in the main. I'm pretty comfortable with this matchup and think my deck is favoured except against a nut draw. The only match I lost, I got him Archive Trap T0, didn't see a Tarmogoyf in the yard, but Extracted all his Eidolons. He went T2 Goyf into T3 Goyf, both of which came down as 5/6s and finished me with Atarka's Command on T4.
Bridge is too unreliable (can be destroyed etc), requires setup, I think it doesnt pull its weight. Surgicals in my opinion are often overrated. You used it and it didnt do anything. Mana/life and a card slot waste. Had you hit Eidolon in his hand, would it be good? I dont think so, it would become a Thoughtseize which Burn doesnt mind. Their place in the sideboard imo. 4 Pushes main is too much for me. Revolt isnt automatic and there are a lot of creatures it cant hit. I use 2 main, 2 side.
Sideboard:
Victim of Night is bad, its double black and its rarely played even in monoB decks because its not good enough.
Hurkyll's Recall too narrow imo. I try to build sideboard of great hosers or universal answers. HR is only slowing affinity by 1-2 turns
Chalice of the Void on 1 is not an option imo and hence shouldnt be in the side (too narrow)
Ceremonious Rejection is too narrow. Tron is already a good matchup. Eldrazi have Caverns (I dont mean its useless, but when you side it, then it does nothing half of the times that looks silly))
Thoughtseize is generally a sideboard card against control and combo, not big mana decks. Our control matchup seems ok, Combo is good too, often we mill their combo pieces.
Lots of criticism and no positive suggestions, Timba. Thanks for the actual suggestions SkyLagger!
I'm on UB, not Esper, so Ghostly Prison unfortunately isn't an option, but I see how it would be great against Affinity. I put Hurkyll's Recall in there as a nod to Affinity, though there isn't any in my meta to test against. A turn or two might be all I need against them. Any other UB suggestions that would be good against them? I rely a bit on getting my Damnations, cuz if I can hit them T4, then buying myself a turn to get there is all I'm looking for. Ensnaring Bridge does a decent job - I don't think it requires any "setting up", I cast it and it sits at what it sits at. By T3 I'm usually down to 3 or 4 cards anyway, and by T4 I can get down to 2 or 3 without much problem.
Duly noted about Ceremonious Rejection. I agree we should be good against Tron, just prioritize a Ghost Quarter/Extraction setup. I run 3 GQ and 2 Extraction main, was thinking about going to a third Extraction main too, it's so versatile. I'll probably pull it out. In fact, Logic Knot might be a bit better?
Timba, if you don't think Surgical Extractions are nuts in our deck, I don't know what to say, maybe you're playing them wrong? I usually pay B for it instead of life, it's fabulous. You can even think of it as a "Mill 3" if you want, but it's targeted and has a chance of hitting their hand, especially in a world of 4-of spells and creatures. I know Goyf is brutal against us, so is Eidolon, I'm always happy to extract it. Strips combos, strips Tron lands, strips threats, strips fetches if you want your Mind Funerals to hit harder... I've never cast one and been unhappy with it.
Chalice is brought in against Affinity and placed on 0 most of the time. Placing it on 1 hurts us a little, but I don't run crabs, so it hits my surgicals, pushes, and Visions, a total of 10 cards for me; not the end of the world, I'd bring it in against other aggro decks (lock Burn out of Bolts, Lava Spikes, etc). My mill spells still go through. I'd never place it on 2.
I've had Murderous Cut and Set Adrifts in my sideboard previously, and they're pretty good for late game spells, especially when I have Orbs in play. My issue with them was they were a bit slow (uncastable T2 or T3 basically), but with Pushes in there to handle the smaller creatures, they could be a good late game. I just don't want to dedicate so many cards to just creature removal; there's lots of other threats out there that I wanna stop.
Regarding Push, I main 4 and it's been working for me. I don't need to actively look for Revolt triggers unless there's something of 4 CMC that needs handling. I use it for 1 and 2 drops (guide, goyf, mana dorks) and it's outstanding. I've never had one that I couldn't use. Definitely keeping 4 mainboard; if I was Esper I'd probably go with less because you get access to Path.
Victim of Night is great, we can agree to disagree. BB is never a problem for me, even T2, and it's almost as good as Terminate - there's very few creatures that escape it. I'd think about running 2 VON instead of a Go for the Throat, cuz Push is good enough against most artifact creatures (Wurmcoil is the only modern-played exception I can think of).
I like Collective Brutality against Burn. Taking out a guide and stripping a spell from their hand are the usual modes I go for. Gaining 2 life to discard a card is kinda meh; it's better if I actually cared about their life total. Outside of Burn it's not as outstanding, which is why it's SB instead of main.
Thoughtseize will probably go. I even had it against Eldrazi and it's still not that great. I run 2 IoK in the main which is probably fine as far as hand disruption goes.
This opens up slots SB where I think I will move the Orbs to the sideboard and in the 4 of slot, put 1 more Surgical (up to 3 total), 2 Twincast, and maybe another Crypt Incursion or third Twincast. I'll probably shuffle things around to put maybe 3 Echoing Truth in the sideboard - great against Leylines which would be our biggest concern. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with how my deck has been performing. I'm tuning it in prep for GP Vancouver on Feb 18/19.
Lots of criticism and no positive suggestions, Timba. Thanks for the actual suggestions SkyLagger!
I'm on UB, not Esper, so Ghostly Prison unfortunately isn't an option, but I see how it would be great against Affinity. I put Hurkyll's Recall in there as a nod to Affinity, though there isn't any in my meta to test against. A turn or two might be all I need against them. Any other UB suggestions that would be good against them? I rely a bit on getting my Damnations, cuz if I can hit them T4, then buying myself a turn to get there is all I'm looking for. Ensnaring Bridge does a decent job - I don't think it requires any "setting up", I cast it and it sits at what it sits at. By T3 I'm usually down to 3 or 4 cards anyway, and by T4 I can get down to 2 or 3 without much problem.
Duly noted about Ceremonious Rejection. I agree we should be good against Tron, just prioritize a Ghost Quarter/Extraction setup. I run 3 GQ and 2 Extraction main, was thinking about going to a third Extraction main too, it's so versatile. I'll probably pull it out. In fact, Logic Knot might be a bit better?
Timba, if you don't think Surgical Extractions are nuts in our deck, I don't know what to say, maybe you're playing them wrong? I usually pay B for it instead of life, it's fabulous. You can even think of it as a "Mill 3" if you want, but it's targeted and has a chance of hitting their hand, especially in a world of 4-of spells and creatures. I know Goyf is brutal against us, so is Eidolon, I'm always happy to extract it. Strips combos, strips Tron lands, strips threats, strips fetches if you want your Mind Funerals to hit harder... I've never cast one and been unhappy with it.
Chalice is brought in against Affinity and placed on 0 most of the time. Placing it on 1 hurts us a little, but I don't run crabs, so it hits my surgicals, pushes, and Visions, a total of 10 cards for me; not the end of the world, I'd bring it in against other aggro decks (lock Burn out of Bolts, Lava Spikes, etc). My mill spells still go through. I'd never place it on 2.
I've had Murderous Cut and Set Adrifts in my sideboard previously, and they're pretty good for late game spells, especially when I have Orbs in play. My issue with them was they were a bit slow (uncastable T2 or T3 basically), but with Pushes in there to handle the smaller creatures, they could be a good late game. I just don't want to dedicate so many cards to just creature removal; there's lots of other threats out there that I wanna stop.
Regarding Push, I main 4 and it's been working for me. I don't need to actively look for Revolt triggers unless there's something of 4 CMC that needs handling. I use it for 1 and 2 drops (guide, goyf, mana dorks) and it's outstanding. I've never had one that I couldn't use. Definitely keeping 4 mainboard; if I was Esper I'd probably go with less because you get access to Path.
Victim of Night is great, we can agree to disagree. BB is never a problem for me, even T2, and it's almost as good as Terminate - there's very few creatures that escape it. I'd think about running 2 VON instead of a Go for the Throat, cuz Push is good enough against most artifact creatures (Wurmcoil is the only modern-played exception I can think of).
I like Collective Brutality against Burn. Taking out a guide and stripping a spell from their hand are the usual modes I go for. Gaining 2 life to discard a card is kinda meh; it's better if I actually cared about their life total. Outside of Burn it's not as outstanding, which is why it's SB instead of main.
Thoughtseize will probably go. I even had it against Eldrazi and it's still not that great. I run 2 IoK in the main which is probably fine as far as hand disruption goes.
This opens up slots SB where I think I will move the Orbs to the sideboard and in the 4 of slot, put 1 more Surgical (up to 3 total), 2 Twincast, and maybe another Crypt Incursion or third Twincast. I'll probably shuffle things around to put maybe 3 Echoing Truth in the sideboard - great against Leylines which would be our biggest concern. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with how my deck has been performing. I'm tuning it in prep for GP Vancouver on Feb 18/19.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, english is not my main language, I just wanted to contribute.
my list remains my suggestion:
Surgical Extraction. Well thats a topic for discussion who is playing it wrong) In my opinion you can't be satisfied with it in your opening hand vs Burn, Affinity, Bushwhacker Zoo and other super fast decks with a lot of threats. You said you were happy casting it to extract Eidolons and died t4. Is this good? This resembles me my friend who randomly plays mill spells in his draft decks (not mill). When he hits something good with it he thinks thats good, in reality its a straight wasted card on top of a chance he helped his opponent with graveyard shenanigans. He thinks mill cards are good but he vastly overvalues them. While Surgical is not a complete waste, it can hit a card in opp's hand, it mills, it lowers draws quality (if good target is chosen). But imo all of this is not enough in many situations. Chance of hitting small, it mills 1-3, draw quality difference is negligible, similar to deck thining due to fetches, Funeral boost is only 2 cards. Compare it to Crab you dont play: Crab is gas, fills 1cmc spot on curve, it blocks, it mills - everything we need.
In my opinion Surgicals' place in the sideboard waiting for combo matchup.
We do have a saying in English, that if you are going to point out problems, be sure to have solutions.
But even if you do not have a solution, you still want to let others know about the problems. Criticism should be constructive.
I've been pondering a shift in mana for Mill. Paradox Engine and Inspiring Statuary beg to be abused, considering all the card draw we have, or potentially have.
Problem is, that does slow us down a lot. I'll look at it.
Note that both Timba and SkyLagger have 11 or so creatures so that increases Crab's value because they aren't going to demand all their removal. If you don't play Scribe and Phantasm then all the removal will be saved for the Crab making it a bad card. Nobody really cares about Snap being that he is just a 2/1 so if you only run 4x Crab and 4x Snap then everyone will save for the Crab. If you are intent on not playing a creature heavy version then just keep playing without the Crab because nobody else does it and can't really tell you if it is worth cutting or putting into the sideboard when you hope they board out removal etc... Engineered Explosives is a legit card even if you are only in 2 colors. I don't see your list but would suggest that because being able to play a sweeper on turn 2 or 3 is leaps and bounds different than playing on turn 4. I still recommend Gemstone Caverns as a land for the UB version.
We do have a saying in English, that if you are going to point out problems, be sure to have solutions.
But even if you do not have a solution, you still want to let others know about the problems. Criticism should be constructive.
I've been pondering a shift in mana for Mill. Paradox Engine and Inspiring Statuary beg to be abused, considering all the card draw we have, or potentially have.
Problem is, that does slow us down a lot. I'll look at it.
How would you abuse either of those? What nonland permanents are you hoping to untap? What artifacts are you hoping to tap to pay colourless mana, and what would you use that colourless mana for?
Note that both Timba and SkyLagger have 11 or so creatures so that increases Crab's value because they aren't going to demand all their removal. If you don't play Scribe and Phantasm then all the removal will be saved for the Crab making it a bad card. Nobody really cares about Snap being that he is just a 2/1 so if you only run 4x Crab and 4x Snap then everyone will save for the Crab. If you are intent on not playing a creature heavy version then just keep playing without the Crab because nobody else does it and can't really tell you if it is worth cutting or putting into the sideboard when you hope they board out removal etc... Engineered Explosives is a legit card even if you are only in 2 colors. I don't see your list but would suggest that because being able to play a sweeper on turn 2 or 3 is leaps and bounds different than playing on turn 4. I still recommend Gemstone Caverns as a land for the UB version.
I hear you on the EE - looking to get my hands on a couple of them, I think they're great, just $$$. I don't think it replaces a Damnation though, since it only takes out permanents with 1 or 2 CMC as opposed to all creatures.
edit: To further on EE, you mention being able to sweep on T2 or T3, but that would be only if you're aiming for 0CMC or 1CMC respectively. Getting to T4 isn't usually a problem with IoK and now Push to slow them down. I run 21 lands and 2 Damnations, I don't usually have a problem getting to 4 in time. For smaller sweepers, Drown in Sorrow would be effective also.
Gotta disagree on Gemstone Caverns; I don't think it's that advantageous for us to, effectively, be on the play but not go first, that I'd be willing to draw into a colourless mana source that does nothing except give us. The best part of my deck in going first is a T1 Inquisition, which Gemstone still doesn't enable. I could possible see it for an Esper deck where it also helps smooth out your mana though, but then drawing into it is even worse.
Surgical Extraction. Well thats a topic for discussion who is playing it wrong) In my opinion you can't be satisfied with it in your opening hand vs Burn, Affinity, Bushwhacker Zoo and other super fast decks with a lot of threats. You said you were happy casting it to extract Eidolons and died t4. Is this good? This resembles me my friend who randomly plays mill spells in his draft decks (not mill). When he hits something good with it he thinks thats good, in reality its a straight wasted card on top of a chance he helped his opponent with graveyard shenanigans. He thinks mill cards are good but he vastly overvalues them. While Surgical is not a complete waste, it can hit a card in opp's hand, it mills, it lowers draws quality (if good target is chosen). But imo all of this is not enough in many situations. Chance of hitting small, it mills 1-3, draw quality difference is negligible, similar to deck thining due to fetches, Funeral boost is only 2 cards. Compare it to Crab you dont play: Crab is gas, fills 1cmc spot on curve, it blocks, it mills - everything we need.
In my opinion Surgicals' place in the sideboard waiting for combo matchup.
No problem! No offense taken I was just hoping for suggestions for replacements since I know there's still room to improve. Sorry if I sounded too crass in my response.
Thanks for linking your list - I see we share a lot of cards in common. I'm on a creatureless list outside of Snapcaster, so Crab would be the only target for their removal, which every deck will be packing. By having no creatures, I expect they will have useless cards in hand G1 at least. It hurt me to take the Crabs out, I agree they've been a staple, but sometimes it's mill 3 or mill 0, in which case a Surgical Extraction is actually just as effective a use of 1 mana. I was even running off-colour fetches (flooded stand and marsh flats) to optimize it, though now they help turn on Revolt if needed.
I'm not of the same mindset as your buddy regarding mill cards - any cards milled off the top are definitely random and you can't think "Yes! I got rid of his XXX", because just as often you won't get rid of XXX and it will help your opponent draw into it. I've played against guys that go "Ah, your mill plan is screwing up my land draws!" uh huh... But for Surgical, it's non-random. It does lower their draw quality. In a deck that has particularly potent threats against you, I'm thinking Tarmogoyf here in particular, it's worth a card and B to make sure you never see them. If you're against a deck with limited total threats (Reanimator, most Trons, even Bant Eldrazi), you can do a pretty good job of taking them out of their deck, especially if you're Snapcasting it back once you've seen their hand from a previous Surgical or IoK or whatever else. I see we agree on how good it is vs combo though (Ad Nauseam is an easy match for just that reason).
And yea, in my example I took out his Eidolons but died T4 to basically a nut hand against us - I just meant to point out that if Tarmogoyf had been in the yard (archive trap and no goyf in there, unfortunate), it would've been my target, and I likely would've won instead of lost. But I agree - burn/zoo decks with tons of threats are not the ideal matchup to have a Surgical in opening hand.
You say Victim of Night is bad because it costs BB, and Surgical is bad because of 2 life, but you run Dismember in the main. Are you normally paying 4 life, or 1BB for it? 4 life is a lot to pay to kill something, and if you're paying 1BB (or even 1B + 2 life), what is it killing that Victim of Night or Go for the Throat isn't killing? I would contend VoN and GFFT kill even more stuff than Dismember. 5/6 Tarmogoyf? Dismember is great to splash in decks with colours that don't have removal (UG for example) but we're in black - we have great catch-all kill spells for 2 mana, or in your case 1 mana using Murderous Cut. Why would you run dismember instead of more of those?
Mishra's bauble is to help you turn on revolt for Push I assume? Seems like a filler spot that just reduces your deck size and doesn't provide much advantage, though I guess reducing deck size can be seen as advantageous. The only issue is if you hold it up waiting to use it to trigger revolt, it's effectively denied you a card for however many turns that is.
Running Jace - I get that he'll flip pretty easily a lot of the time, at which point he becomes a Snapcaster mage for a turn, then pumps their creatures down if he survives. Seems like a slightly less effective Snapcaster in terms of ability, but can also be a blocker or absorb damage. What's your opinion of him, and why only a 1-of? On the same point, Snapcasters work really well with Mesmeric Orb - I suggest you try them if you have them/can afford them!
How do you like Sphinx's Tutelage? It seems really slow to me, like a bad Mesmeric Orb. I see synergy with Visions of Beyond, but at that point I think I'd rather just cast a Mind Funeral or even a Breaking//Entering.
I've been back and forth on Jace's Phantasm, but don't like diluting the mill gameplan. That said, if I'm taking Orbs to the sideboard and using them against Leyline of Sanctity decks, it might be an idea to try the Phantasm in the board also/instead, since opponents will likely take out creature removal for G2, and a Leyline doesn't stop me from beating them in the face with a flier.
I see your Dispel in the board and think it's decent to force one of your spells through. I'd be thinking of holding it up for Crypt Incursion for example, in case of a Skullcrack or a counterspell of some sort. Interesting thought.
Here's what I'm currently going to switch my list to. I don't have Engineered Explosives and not sure if I'll be able to procure any in time for the tournament.
We do have a saying in English, that if you are going to point out problems, be sure to have solutions.
But even if you do not have a solution, you still want to let others know about the problems. Criticism should be constructive.
I've been pondering a shift in mana for Mill. Paradox Engine and Inspiring Statuary beg to be abused, considering all the card draw we have, or potentially have.
Problem is, that does slow us down a lot. I'll look at it.
How would you abuse either of those? What nonland permanents are you hoping to untap? What artifacts are you hoping to tap to pay colourless mana, and what would you use that colourless mana for?
My mind is tinkering with running some number of Inspiring Statuary and Paradox Engine. We already have Ensnaring Bridge. Some decks have Mesmeric Orb. Add in Dimir Signet and we have a card we can tap for mana, or tap for Statuary, and it untaps with every spell we cast due to Paradox Engine. Combine that with our ability to draw with Serum Visions and Visions of Beyond....
It might be too much to run all in a single deck, or too slow, or or or but it is on my mind.
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http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-12-16-hgM-ub-mill/
Synergy thoughts:
Ensnaring Bridge activated by Collective Brutality
Manic Scribe activated by Collective Brutality and Mesmeric Orb
Archive Trap activated by Ghost Quarter
My fear is it isn't enough mill. Maybe drop a Phantasm and Surgical Extraction for Mind Funerals?
I'd like some thoughts on improvements for match ups I may not have considered.
Replace Jace's Phantasm with Mind Funeral. Replace Breaking/Entering with Glimpse the Unthinkable if you can afford it. Not a fan of Manic Scribe, but others like it.
A Visions of Beyond would not be out of place, either.
Other than that, It looks pretty good. Maybe put in a Kozilek or Ulamog to recycle your graveyard?
Jace's Phantasm with Mind funeral would be decent. I like the creatures, but with Fatal Puah, he may die to easily.
I'm going to get Glimpse's when I can afford it.
I took out visions because it's a dead card when going for Ensnaring Bridge lock.
Also... Your sideboard... Do you know how you will board against different matchups... Jund, Abzan, Burn, Infect,Merfolk, Valakut, etc... Does each card have a purpose? Also, which cards are really bad in your maindeck in specific matchups. See if you have sufficient sideboard slots to replace your truly awful cards like Ensnaring Bridge vs Infect/Affinity. I think a great card to offset Ensnaring Bridge with is Profane Memento. Bridge has trouble against fast decks that go wide, whereas you don't want Profane Memento against 15/15 Emrakuls or 10/10 Slippery Bogles etc... For the most part one card is preferred over the other in each matchup.
I like the recommendation of Fatal Push over Dismember because Mill can't afford to throw away 4 life and if you keep it in the sideboard you know it will be an awesome card when you bring it in.
Seems some poor sap on MTGO led off the game with a fetch, grabbed an Island, tapped it for Serum Visions and in response, opponent slammed him with all 4 Archive Trap in his opening hand for a turn 0 win.
Hang onto your hats, we could see some spikes on U/B/x Mill staples over the next 24 hours.
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
According to the comments, it made the front page for a while.
I landed Ensnaring Bridge against him a couple times, but it got hit with Nature's Claim and Worldbreaker immediately each time.
One other thing I'll say, I aim to Surgical Extraction on any of (in priority) Eldrazi Temple > Reality Smasher > Thought-Knot Seer. If there's already a Temple in play, I might not bother extracting it and would try to strip their threats directly - they're pretty neutered without those.
My thoughts on the matchup are that outside of Damnation and a few kill spells that slow him down, we're not going to beat them in the long game - we've got to get under them. Towards that end, I've thought about possibly taking out Mesmeric Orbs in favour of something faster. In my case, I think it's either Breaking//Entering, or Twincast. I like Mesmeric Orbs, and they're our only win condition through a Leyline of Sanctity, so they're better post-board when the game gets a little slower/grindier and Leylines are potentially coming down. Otherwise they're a bit slow. With the meta slowing down, I think we have a better chance at racing versus a larger percentage of the field.
My concern is then using up 4 sideboard slots (or maybe just 3) on Mesmeric Orbs. I feel my sideboard is pretty tight at the moment:
2 Hurkyll's Recall for Affinity
2 Chalice of the Void for Cheeri0s/Affinity
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night for more creature based decks (Grixis Delver, Bant Eldrazi) where I'd sub some in for Fatal Push
2 Spellskite for Burn/Infect
2 Set Adrift as a nice catch-all delay against enchantments, planeswalkers, artifacts (would probably sub for Echoing Truth if I took Orbs out)
1 Ceremonious Rejection as a throw-in against Eldrazi or Tron
2 Collective Brutality are also good against Burn/Infect
2 Thoughtseize are also good against big mana decks
and I'm not sure what I'd take out. Possibly Collective Brutality and Ceremonious Rejection.
I'm going to try out with 4x Twincast subbed in for 4x Mesmeric Orbs and see if I can have a better shot at him.
I also played a matchup against a burn/zoo deck (burn with Tarmogoyfs and Ghor-Clan Rampagers basically) and beat him 2-1. Crypt Incursion just straight wins that match when it comes down (27 and 39 life gained per game, respectively) without being Skullcracked or Atarka's Command, as long as you can get some cards into their yard. Fatal Push is also an all-star, I run 4 in the main. I'm pretty comfortable with this matchup and think my deck is favoured except against a nut draw. The only match I lost, I got him Archive Trap T0, didn't see a Tarmogoyf in the yard, but Extracted all his Eidolons. He went T2 Goyf into T3 Goyf, both of which came down as 5/6s and finished me with Atarka's Command on T4.
Bridge is too unreliable (can be destroyed etc), requires setup, I think it doesnt pull its weight. Surgicals in my opinion are often overrated. You used it and it didnt do anything. Mana/life and a card slot waste. Had you hit Eidolon in his hand, would it be good? I dont think so, it would become a Thoughtseize which Burn doesnt mind. Their place in the sideboard imo. 4 Pushes main is too much for me. Revolt isnt automatic and there are a lot of creatures it cant hit. I use 2 main, 2 side.
Sideboard:
Victim of Night is bad, its double black and its rarely played even in monoB decks because its not good enough.
Hurkyll's Recall too narrow imo. I try to build sideboard of great hosers or universal answers. HR is only slowing affinity by 1-2 turns
Chalice of the Void on 1 is not an option imo and hence shouldnt be in the side (too narrow)
Ceremonious Rejection is too narrow. Tron is already a good matchup. Eldrazi have Caverns (I dont mean its useless, but when you side it, then it does nothing half of the times that looks silly))
Thoughtseize is generally a sideboard card against control and combo, not big mana decks. Our control matchup seems ok, Combo is good too, often we mill their combo pieces.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I'm on UB, not Esper, so Ghostly Prison unfortunately isn't an option, but I see how it would be great against Affinity. I put Hurkyll's Recall in there as a nod to Affinity, though there isn't any in my meta to test against. A turn or two might be all I need against them. Any other UB suggestions that would be good against them? I rely a bit on getting my Damnations, cuz if I can hit them T4, then buying myself a turn to get there is all I'm looking for. Ensnaring Bridge does a decent job - I don't think it requires any "setting up", I cast it and it sits at what it sits at. By T3 I'm usually down to 3 or 4 cards anyway, and by T4 I can get down to 2 or 3 without much problem.
Duly noted about Ceremonious Rejection. I agree we should be good against Tron, just prioritize a Ghost Quarter/Extraction setup. I run 3 GQ and 2 Extraction main, was thinking about going to a third Extraction main too, it's so versatile. I'll probably pull it out. In fact, Logic Knot might be a bit better?
Timba, if you don't think Surgical Extractions are nuts in our deck, I don't know what to say, maybe you're playing them wrong? I usually pay B for it instead of life, it's fabulous. You can even think of it as a "Mill 3" if you want, but it's targeted and has a chance of hitting their hand, especially in a world of 4-of spells and creatures. I know Goyf is brutal against us, so is Eidolon, I'm always happy to extract it. Strips combos, strips Tron lands, strips threats, strips fetches if you want your Mind Funerals to hit harder... I've never cast one and been unhappy with it.
Chalice is brought in against Affinity and placed on 0 most of the time. Placing it on 1 hurts us a little, but I don't run crabs, so it hits my surgicals, pushes, and Visions, a total of 10 cards for me; not the end of the world, I'd bring it in against other aggro decks (lock Burn out of Bolts, Lava Spikes, etc). My mill spells still go through. I'd never place it on 2.
I've had Murderous Cut and Set Adrifts in my sideboard previously, and they're pretty good for late game spells, especially when I have Orbs in play. My issue with them was they were a bit slow (uncastable T2 or T3 basically), but with Pushes in there to handle the smaller creatures, they could be a good late game. I just don't want to dedicate so many cards to just creature removal; there's lots of other threats out there that I wanna stop.
Regarding Push, I main 4 and it's been working for me. I don't need to actively look for Revolt triggers unless there's something of 4 CMC that needs handling. I use it for 1 and 2 drops (guide, goyf, mana dorks) and it's outstanding. I've never had one that I couldn't use. Definitely keeping 4 mainboard; if I was Esper I'd probably go with less because you get access to Path.
Victim of Night is great, we can agree to disagree. BB is never a problem for me, even T2, and it's almost as good as Terminate - there's very few creatures that escape it. I'd think about running 2 VON instead of a Go for the Throat, cuz Push is good enough against most artifact creatures (Wurmcoil is the only modern-played exception I can think of).
I like Collective Brutality against Burn. Taking out a guide and stripping a spell from their hand are the usual modes I go for. Gaining 2 life to discard a card is kinda meh; it's better if I actually cared about their life total. Outside of Burn it's not as outstanding, which is why it's SB instead of main.
Thoughtseize will probably go. I even had it against Eldrazi and it's still not that great. I run 2 IoK in the main which is probably fine as far as hand disruption goes.
This opens up slots SB where I think I will move the Orbs to the sideboard and in the 4 of slot, put 1 more Surgical (up to 3 total), 2 Twincast, and maybe another Crypt Incursion or third Twincast. I'll probably shuffle things around to put maybe 3 Echoing Truth in the sideboard - great against Leylines which would be our biggest concern. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with how my deck has been performing. I'm tuning it in prep for GP Vancouver on Feb 18/19.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, english is not my main language, I just wanted to contribute.
my list remains my suggestion:
1x Darkslick Shores
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Island
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4x Polluted Delta
3x Shelldock Isle
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Sorcery (6)
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
2x Mind Funeral
Enchantment (1)
1x Sphinx's Tutelage
4x Archive Trap
2x Crypt Incursion
1x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
1x Murderous Cut
4x Visions of Beyond
Creature (12)
4x Hedron Crab
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
3x Jace's Phantasm
4x Manic Scribe
Artifact (5)
4x Mesmeric Orb
1x Mishra's Bauble
1x Crypt Incursion
1x Damnation
1x Dispel
2x Fatal Push
1x Negate
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Set Adrift
1x Spellskite
3x Surgical Extraction
Surgical Extraction. Well thats a topic for discussion who is playing it wrong) In my opinion you can't be satisfied with it in your opening hand vs Burn, Affinity, Bushwhacker Zoo and other super fast decks with a lot of threats. You said you were happy casting it to extract Eidolons and died t4. Is this good? This resembles me my friend who randomly plays mill spells in his draft decks (not mill). When he hits something good with it he thinks thats good, in reality its a straight wasted card on top of a chance he helped his opponent with graveyard shenanigans. He thinks mill cards are good but he vastly overvalues them. While Surgical is not a complete waste, it can hit a card in opp's hand, it mills, it lowers draws quality (if good target is chosen). But imo all of this is not enough in many situations. Chance of hitting small, it mills 1-3, draw quality difference is negligible, similar to deck thining due to fetches, Funeral boost is only 2 cards. Compare it to Crab you dont play: Crab is gas, fills 1cmc spot on curve, it blocks, it mills - everything we need.
In my opinion Surgicals' place in the sideboard waiting for combo matchup.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
We do have a saying in English, that if you are going to point out problems, be sure to have solutions.
But even if you do not have a solution, you still want to let others know about the problems. Criticism should be constructive.
I've been pondering a shift in mana for Mill. Paradox Engine and Inspiring Statuary beg to be abused, considering all the card draw we have, or potentially have.
Problem is, that does slow us down a lot. I'll look at it.
How would you abuse either of those? What nonland permanents are you hoping to untap? What artifacts are you hoping to tap to pay colourless mana, and what would you use that colourless mana for?
I hear you on the EE - looking to get my hands on a couple of them, I think they're great, just $$$. I don't think it replaces a Damnation though, since it only takes out permanents with 1 or 2 CMC as opposed to all creatures.
edit: To further on EE, you mention being able to sweep on T2 or T3, but that would be only if you're aiming for 0CMC or 1CMC respectively. Getting to T4 isn't usually a problem with IoK and now Push to slow them down. I run 21 lands and 2 Damnations, I don't usually have a problem getting to 4 in time. For smaller sweepers, Drown in Sorrow would be effective also.
Gotta disagree on Gemstone Caverns; I don't think it's that advantageous for us to, effectively, be on the play but not go first, that I'd be willing to draw into a colourless mana source that does nothing except give us. The best part of my deck in going first is a T1 Inquisition, which Gemstone still doesn't enable. I could possible see it for an Esper deck where it also helps smooth out your mana though, but then drawing into it is even worse.
No problem! No offense taken
Thanks for linking your list - I see we share a lot of cards in common. I'm on a creatureless list outside of Snapcaster, so Crab would be the only target for their removal, which every deck will be packing. By having no creatures, I expect they will have useless cards in hand G1 at least. It hurt me to take the Crabs out, I agree they've been a staple, but sometimes it's mill 3 or mill 0, in which case a Surgical Extraction is actually just as effective a use of 1 mana. I was even running off-colour fetches (flooded stand and marsh flats) to optimize it, though now they help turn on Revolt if needed.
I'm not of the same mindset as your buddy regarding mill cards - any cards milled off the top are definitely random and you can't think "Yes! I got rid of his XXX", because just as often you won't get rid of XXX and it will help your opponent draw into it. I've played against guys that go "Ah, your mill plan is screwing up my land draws!" uh huh... But for Surgical, it's non-random. It does lower their draw quality. In a deck that has particularly potent threats against you, I'm thinking Tarmogoyf here in particular, it's worth a card and B to make sure you never see them. If you're against a deck with limited total threats (Reanimator, most Trons, even Bant Eldrazi), you can do a pretty good job of taking them out of their deck, especially if you're Snapcasting it back once you've seen their hand from a previous Surgical or IoK or whatever else. I see we agree on how good it is vs combo though (Ad Nauseam is an easy match for just that reason).
And yea, in my example I took out his Eidolons but died T4 to basically a nut hand against us - I just meant to point out that if Tarmogoyf had been in the yard (archive trap and no goyf in there, unfortunate), it would've been my target, and I likely would've won instead of lost. But I agree - burn/zoo decks with tons of threats are not the ideal matchup to have a Surgical in opening hand.
You say Victim of Night is bad because it costs BB, and Surgical is bad because of 2 life, but you run Dismember in the main. Are you normally paying 4 life, or 1BB for it? 4 life is a lot to pay to kill something, and if you're paying 1BB (or even 1B + 2 life), what is it killing that Victim of Night or Go for the Throat isn't killing? I would contend VoN and GFFT kill even more stuff than Dismember. 5/6 Tarmogoyf? Dismember is great to splash in decks with colours that don't have removal (UG for example) but we're in black - we have great catch-all kill spells for 2 mana, or in your case 1 mana using Murderous Cut. Why would you run dismember instead of more of those?
Mishra's bauble is to help you turn on revolt for Push I assume? Seems like a filler spot that just reduces your deck size and doesn't provide much advantage, though I guess reducing deck size can be seen as advantageous. The only issue is if you hold it up waiting to use it to trigger revolt, it's effectively denied you a card for however many turns that is.
Running Jace - I get that he'll flip pretty easily a lot of the time, at which point he becomes a Snapcaster mage for a turn, then pumps their creatures down if he survives. Seems like a slightly less effective Snapcaster in terms of ability, but can also be a blocker or absorb damage. What's your opinion of him, and why only a 1-of? On the same point, Snapcasters work really well with Mesmeric Orb - I suggest you try them if you have them/can afford them!
How do you like Sphinx's Tutelage? It seems really slow to me, like a bad Mesmeric Orb. I see synergy with Visions of Beyond, but at that point I think I'd rather just cast a Mind Funeral or even a Breaking//Entering.
I've been back and forth on Jace's Phantasm, but don't like diluting the mill gameplan. That said, if I'm taking Orbs to the sideboard and using them against Leyline of Sanctity decks, it might be an idea to try the Phantasm in the board also/instead, since opponents will likely take out creature removal for G2, and a Leyline doesn't stop me from beating them in the face with a flier.
I see your Dispel in the board and think it's decent to force one of your spells through. I'd be thinking of holding it up for Crypt Incursion for example, in case of a Skullcrack or a counterspell of some sort. Interesting thought.
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shelldock Isle
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Watery Grave
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
3 Swamp
Spells (33)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Visions of Beyond
2 Damnation
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
3 Crypt Incursion
2 Collective Brutality
3 Twincast
4 Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts (1)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spellskite
2 Echoing Truth
1 Murderous Cut
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Set Adrift
1 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
3 Mesmeric Orb
Here's what I'm currently going to switch my list to. I don't have Engineered Explosives and not sure if I'll be able to procure any in time for the tournament.
My mind is tinkering with running some number of Inspiring Statuary and Paradox Engine. We already have Ensnaring Bridge. Some decks have Mesmeric Orb. Add in Dimir Signet and we have a card we can tap for mana, or tap for Statuary, and it untaps with every spell we cast due to Paradox Engine. Combine that with our ability to draw with Serum Visions and Visions of Beyond....
It might be too much to run all in a single deck, or too slow, or or or but it is on my mind.