I agree that Leyline is not great. If we were Ad Nauseum, where we were essentially a one card combo, it would would have some merit. As is though, we have plenty of ways to combat burn imo.
I am at a crossroads with Scribe. Without Mesmeric Orb, he can be really slow. I won't mill my self in most situations to potentially trigger Delirium as it slows down the game too much and I don't always get it triggered when I need to I feel but it isn't that difficult to get it triggered in general. Scribe absorbing blows and bolts is a pretty big deal. Effectively blanking a good amount of attackers without fear of him dying without our opponents using a way to finish him off. That tends to work well with Ghostly Prison too. He brings a lot to the table but I don't know if it's enough. More testing required.
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In regards to the scribe, I think he's pretty solid. At worst he's mill 3 or a blocker/boltbait. At best he blocks a small creature and mills the opponent every turn. However, it wouldn't be worth it to target yourself with glimpse. Like RoKnRuiN1 said, he works well with mesmeric orbs. Just not that great without them.
My Meta is aggro heavy. Hopefully next time that I am able to make to a tourney and I'll let you guys know how the scribe goes for my deck. It's pretty much just like the deck played in GPLA. Just with Darkness in the sideboard and a couple of other tweaks.
I think another thing to consider is that relying solely on mill to win (i.e. dropping phantasm/souls) leaves you incredibly vulnerable to all of the emrakul/elixer running around. One ill timed shuffle of the graveyard and you've almost surely lost that game.
I just don't know if sacrificing an alternate win con for manic scribe is worth it, especially when we can all agree he's inconsistent at best.
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I have tried both 4 and 3 leyline of sanctity, but, quickly, quickly realized they are almost useless in the burn matchup. I would recommend sticking with the meta life gain option profane memento. Or I just go with a playset of crypt incursion (3mb 1sb) and 2 rest for the weary. Its plenty and I *almost* never lose to burn. I've been playing mill in 10 competitive matches per week for awhile, so I've got quite a bit of experience with the deck
What didn't you like about leyline of sanctity? How was burn beating you with it out ?
How do you beat burn without it ?
I played against burn last night and it beat me. Feels like sanctity would of almost got me the win.
If you're relying solely on Leyline to win you're screwed, especially if you don't see it in your initial 7. Not only that, people are more inclined to keep terrible hands if they see a leyline, so when the leyline gets bursted down on turn 2 you're going to be in a world of hurt.
I've found that 4 crypt incursion (3mb + 1sb) and 2 rest for the weary (0mb + 2sb). Provides plenty of time to win against burn, I'm not saying the matchup is 100%, It's burn. But it certainly isn't the hardest matchup by any means.
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I would try wall of omens before wall of denial. Extra card draw/easier casting cost, it's really solid. Plus it drops a turn earlier and if aggro is what youre worried about that's extremely important because they're gonna go wide so you need to start blocking early, turn 3 is too late.
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I would try wall of omens before wall of denial. Extra card draw/easier casting cost, it's really solid. Plus it drops a turn earlier and if aggro is what youre worried about that's extremely important because they're gonna go wide so you need to start blocking early, turn 3 is too late.
Agreed. Wall of denial isn't that bad but it's too slow. You want wall of omens since it replaces itself (this is very important against non aggro decks) and drops earlier. Most of the time, wall of omens is going to block a creature and eat a bolt or something but that is not a bad thing.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
Timely Reinforcements and Dispel are two cards to consider in the burn match up. I play 2 Dispel because it's just too relevant against a handful of decks imo. I am a control plAyer at heart though and my sideboards can certainly reflect that at times. Dispel is basically a staple for any Blue deck I can get my hands on. There are quite a bit of different cards to use against burn.
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Both cards are incredibly solid, I would be running timely if i didnt mb lingering souls
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
Why not do that anyway? How badly do you need blockers in the air if you aren't trying to win with them? Personally, I don't see the need to include white if you rely on black. All your wants and needs are there and they all cost a lot of money. Damnation, Liliana of the Veil, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize could all do the work of whatever white brings to the table WITH THE EXCEPTION of Stony Silence (ain't nothin beatin no Stony Silence). This goes without mentioning blue's share of removal which is basically Cryptic Command and maybe Hibernation (if Abzan/Junk/Jund/Hatebears/Elves/etc are giving you trouble). Crypt Incursion or Dragon's Claw combined with Ghostly Prison or Timely Reinforcements (since you're running white) should be enough to fend off burn. If you're running white though, why not run 3-4 Leyline of Sanctity? It locks out storm, burn, scapeshift, ad nauseam, and some deck I'm probably forgetting. I'd literally mulligan until I got a Leyline of Sanctity or Crypt Incursion in my opening hand if I ran white. 3 colors is too taxing and inconsistent in a deck that absolutely needs consistent mana fixing. Here's my current list for reference:
I feel like dragon's claw would be too slow compared to profane memento. Since it comes out turn 1 and it doesn't clog up our turn 2 plays. Dragons claw is nice, but it costs 1 more. It depends on the meta too.
Any opinions on bloodchief ascension? I was thinking about testing it because the life gain is nice, but it seems slow with no early game impact.
It is hard for most mill to deal the damage required to make it work unless you are agro mill. However agro mill is dealing damage in large chunks at a time. IMO I do not think it is worth it
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So an average burn list (according to mtgtop8.com), is running roughly 14-18 creatures. Is that really enough merit to include Profane Memento as the only source for life gain against burn outside of Crypt Incursion? Idk about you guys, but I feel that any aggro and burn are our hardest match ups next to the new Emrakul/Nahiri combo decks going around. I just can't see Profane or Crypt helping us against burn at all when less than a 1/4 of the opponent's deck is creatures. Maybe im doing something wrong? I'll have to test out Esper mill again and see how well that plays out because JinLin's list has been the most successful mill list I have seen in a long while.
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Modern: B 8Rack RX Goblins BG Elves (Attempting) UBW Mill G Stompy UB Tezzerator
Legacy: W Stax
So an average burn list (according to mtgtop8.com), is running roughly 14-18 creatures. Is that really enough merit to include Profane Memento as the only source for life gain against burn outside of Crypt Incursion? Idk about you guys, but I feel that any aggro and burn are our hardest match ups next to the new Emrakul/Nahiri combo decks going around. I just can't see Profane or Crypt helping us against burn at all when less than a 1/4 of the opponent's deck is creatures. Maybe im doing something wrong? I'll have to test out Esper mill again and see how well that plays out because JinLin's list has been the most successful mill list I have seen in a long while.
If we assume that the average number of creatures in the deck is 16, then, a turn 1 profane momento into milling 10 cards per turn should, in theory, net you 3 life per turn on average. That's not bad. On the other hand, a turn 2 glimpse into a turn 3 crypt incursion should net you 9 life on average. Now if the reason you lose is because of bolt effects then you should sideboard things like Eidolon of Rhetoric since it's good against multiple decks.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
So an average burn list (according to mtgtop8.com), is running roughly 14-18 creatures. Is that really enough merit to include Profane Memento as the only source for life gain against burn outside of Crypt Incursion? Idk about you guys, but I feel that any aggro and burn are our hardest match ups next to the new Emrakul/Nahiri combo decks going around. I just can't see Profane or Crypt helping us against burn at all when less than a 1/4 of the opponent's deck is creatures. Maybe im doing something wrong? I'll have to test out Esper mill again and see how well that plays out because JinLin's list has been the most successful mill list I have seen in a long while.
I think your underestimating the value of life gain against Burn. One Crypt Incursion alone can put you way out of reach for burn. Game 2 white has plenty of options against burn. Vampiric Link is an option for black against Eidolon (spelling?), spellskite can be used to slow them down, Sun Droplet is another great choice for any color. It puts you ahead against burn after they enter top deck mode and stalls better than dragons claw before that point.
Aggro is certainly a thing but that's what Bridge, Incursion, Ghostly Prison, And Path's are for. If you don't play white than consider Disfigure. If your playing JinLin's list than its not surprising you are having trouble against aggro. His list was not setup to combat Aggro every match. His only out is Bridge as Incursion only stalls and he lacks efficient removal. JinLin did well during the GP because he played mostly favorable matches day 1 besides Infect and Affinity. Both of those he happened to win. The burn match isn't that bad in my experience so it's not surprising to me that he beat burn day 1 as well.
So i played my esper mill version a couple of nights ago and it was very competitive.
I have never been this happy with the deck even though i didn't win a single round out of 4.
First round was against merfolk. Traditionally the lord nature of this match up has been difficult for me to beat. He beat me game 1 but it was close. Game 2 i beat him and we went to time. Result 1/1
Next i played against the new nahiri deck i milled him 3x over first match but he kept reseting his gy. Game 2 i sided in leyline of the void and almost beat him. He managed to draw into enchantment hate. Result 0/2 very close and not a unbeatable match.
Round 3 was against blue tron. Game one he established the lock with 1 card in the library left (mindslaver) game two i think i sided out against him poorly and paid for it. Beatable match up though. Result 0/2
Last round was against delver and both times he was on 3 cards left in library before he killed me. Lucky top draws got him the wins Result 0/2
In the end i was very pleased with how the deck performed. And will do a little tweaking to get it where i want it for next week.
I played my Esper Mill list tonight as well. Managed to go 5-0 for first place. Played Abzan Coco-Chord R1 2-1, R2 was UW Control 2-0, R3 was Naya Burn 2-1, R4 was Bant Eldrazi 2-0, and R5 was UW Thopter Gifts 2-1.
Tonight was a blast, forgot how straining this deck can be on my brain with all the card counting and trying to figure out optimal plays. Mind Funeral and Surgical Extractions post board were difficult to play but very effective. Ill post my list and a little more detailed report when I get home. Will be tonight or tomorrow.
The RiP's and Stony's were excellent against Thopters. Elesh Norn just ate a Path and I exiled his Iona before he could abuse her post board and it was pretty much straight forward. I had to play into some counter spells but he was on his heels most the match. I didn't get a chance to use Disenchant that match. When I played against Burn I put in the 4th incursion, dispels, and 3 Surgicals. Game 1 I lost in a pinch from an entirely too slow opener against burn but game 2 and 3 Incursion and Surgicals all but stopped them. Abzan Coco was my friend that rode with me to the tournament of course. He hates playing mill because his deck just gets ripped apart by mine. With the Path's available to stop any nonsense on the battlefield and our mill spells to ruin their creature toolbox setup the matchup is heavily in our favor. I can count on one hand how many times i've lost Coco Chord. UW Control was a fun match. Game one I hit all his basics and got a double GQ on his two UW lands leaving him only 2 islands for 2 turns. He did play a Wall and Resto Angel but Path dealt with her. Game two went about the same but he managed to play an Angel that nearly killed me. I had to do a sequence of plays involving Surgical to count his land in library, Hedron crab to hit the one land I needed, and then mind funeral for the win. When I played against Eldrazi I thought I was done for but the deck is significantly more fair than it was. He ended up playing a Reality Smasher and Thought Knot Seer g1 and g2, All of which ate Path's in both games. G2 was down to the wire as he was attacking me with a 3 power Noble Heirarch most the game. I managed to Mill him exactly when I needed to though.
Sorry for the wall of text and that it's in no particular order. With my toddler running rampant I've had to just blast this out while he's distracted. All said and done though I like this list. I probably am going to change Lingering Souls around or the Prisons, maybe both. I felt like they weren't particularly great last night and that maybe Hand Disruption would be a good try in the Meta that I was in. If I play at the other store in my area I will have to include Souls I think. There's about 6 Jund players there. 4 of which are nearly all foil, 1 of them is entirely foil. Basically can't go there without playing Jund in any kind of Modern event. They are the stores most commmon regulars I think.
Excited to play this in SCG Dallas at the end of the month.
OH and by the way, Mesmeric Orb is the All Star performer of this list. I will be adding my 4th back in. It just tears decks apart in the long game and in multiples it's just disgusting. It played a part in almost every match for me.
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I am at a crossroads with Scribe. Without Mesmeric Orb, he can be really slow. I won't mill my self in most situations to potentially trigger Delirium as it slows down the game too much and I don't always get it triggered when I need to I feel but it isn't that difficult to get it triggered in general. Scribe absorbing blows and bolts is a pretty big deal. Effectively blanking a good amount of attackers without fear of him dying without our opponents using a way to finish him off. That tends to work well with Ghostly Prison too. He brings a lot to the table but I don't know if it's enough. More testing required.
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My Meta is aggro heavy. Hopefully next time that I am able to make to a tourney and I'll let you guys know how the scribe goes for my deck. It's pretty much just like the deck played in GPLA. Just with Darkness in the sideboard and a couple of other tweaks.
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UB Mill
I just don't know if sacrificing an alternate win con for manic scribe is worth it, especially when we can all agree he's inconsistent at best.
What didn't you like about leyline of sanctity? How was burn beating you with it out ?
How do you beat burn without it ?
I played against burn last night and it beat me. Feels like sanctity would of almost got me the win.
I've found that 4 crypt incursion (3mb + 1sb) and 2 rest for the weary (0mb + 2sb). Provides plenty of time to win against burn, I'm not saying the matchup is 100%, It's burn. But it certainly isn't the hardest matchup by any means.
What do people think about wall of denial for a aggro kind of meta ?
Agreed. Wall of denial isn't that bad but it's too slow. You want wall of omens since it replaces itself (this is very important against non aggro decks) and drops earlier. Most of the time, wall of omens is going to block a creature and eat a bolt or something but that is not a bad thing.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
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2 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 breaking // entering
4 visions of beyond
3 mind funeral
4 hedron crab
4 archive trap
4 surgical extraction
3 cryptic command
4 watery grave
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 ghost quarter
1 oboro, palace in the clouds
1 nephalia drownyard
2 island
2 swamp
4 leyline of the void
4 crypt incursion
2 damnation
2 hurkyl's recall
3 ensnaring bridge
To try and settle the fears of Emrakul, the AEons Torn hitting the GY, Crypt Incursion can be cast in response to the ole spaghetti monster GY trigger (which is how you'd also get rid of her with Relic of Progenitus).
Any opinions on bloodchief ascension? I was thinking about testing it because the life gain is nice, but it seems slow with no early game impact.
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Legacy
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Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
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If we assume that the average number of creatures in the deck is 16, then, a turn 1 profane momento into milling 10 cards per turn should, in theory, net you 3 life per turn on average. That's not bad. On the other hand, a turn 2 glimpse into a turn 3 crypt incursion should net you 9 life on average. Now if the reason you lose is because of bolt effects then you should sideboard things like Eidolon of Rhetoric since it's good against multiple decks.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
I think your underestimating the value of life gain against Burn. One Crypt Incursion alone can put you way out of reach for burn. Game 2 white has plenty of options against burn. Vampiric Link is an option for black against Eidolon (spelling?), spellskite can be used to slow them down, Sun Droplet is another great choice for any color. It puts you ahead against burn after they enter top deck mode and stalls better than dragons claw before that point.
Aggro is certainly a thing but that's what Bridge, Incursion, Ghostly Prison, And Path's are for. If you don't play white than consider Disfigure. If your playing JinLin's list than its not surprising you are having trouble against aggro. His list was not setup to combat Aggro every match. His only out is Bridge as Incursion only stalls and he lacks efficient removal. JinLin did well during the GP because he played mostly favorable matches day 1 besides Infect and Affinity. Both of those he happened to win. The burn match isn't that bad in my experience so it's not surprising to me that he beat burn day 1 as well.
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I have never been this happy with the deck even though i didn't win a single round out of 4.
First round was against merfolk. Traditionally the lord nature of this match up has been difficult for me to beat. He beat me game 1 but it was close. Game 2 i beat him and we went to time. Result 1/1
Next i played against the new nahiri deck i milled him 3x over first match but he kept reseting his gy. Game 2 i sided in leyline of the void and almost beat him. He managed to draw into enchantment hate. Result 0/2 very close and not a unbeatable match.
Round 3 was against blue tron. Game one he established the lock with 1 card in the library left (mindslaver) game two i think i sided out against him poorly and paid for it. Beatable match up though. Result 0/2
Last round was against delver and both times he was on 3 cards left in library before he killed me. Lucky top draws got him the wins Result 0/2
In the end i was very pleased with how the deck performed. And will do a little tweaking to get it where i want it for next week.
Tonight was a blast, forgot how straining this deck can be on my brain with all the card counting and trying to figure out optimal plays. Mind Funeral and Surgical Extractions post board were difficult to play but very effective. Ill post my list and a little more detailed report when I get home. Will be tonight or tomorrow.
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4 Hedron Crab
2 Manic Scribe
Artifacts/Enchantments 7
3 Mesmeric Orb
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Sorceries/Instants 24
4 Path to Exile
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Crypt Incursion
3 Lingering Souls
2 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Shelldock Isle
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dispel
2 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rest in Peace
The RiP's and Stony's were excellent against Thopters. Elesh Norn just ate a Path and I exiled his Iona before he could abuse her post board and it was pretty much straight forward. I had to play into some counter spells but he was on his heels most the match. I didn't get a chance to use Disenchant that match. When I played against Burn I put in the 4th incursion, dispels, and 3 Surgicals. Game 1 I lost in a pinch from an entirely too slow opener against burn but game 2 and 3 Incursion and Surgicals all but stopped them. Abzan Coco was my friend that rode with me to the tournament of course. He hates playing mill because his deck just gets ripped apart by mine. With the Path's available to stop any nonsense on the battlefield and our mill spells to ruin their creature toolbox setup the matchup is heavily in our favor. I can count on one hand how many times i've lost Coco Chord. UW Control was a fun match. Game one I hit all his basics and got a double GQ on his two UW lands leaving him only 2 islands for 2 turns. He did play a Wall and Resto Angel but Path dealt with her. Game two went about the same but he managed to play an Angel that nearly killed me. I had to do a sequence of plays involving Surgical to count his land in library, Hedron crab to hit the one land I needed, and then mind funeral for the win. When I played against Eldrazi I thought I was done for but the deck is significantly more fair than it was. He ended up playing a Reality Smasher and Thought Knot Seer g1 and g2, All of which ate Path's in both games. G2 was down to the wire as he was attacking me with a 3 power Noble Heirarch most the game. I managed to Mill him exactly when I needed to though.
Sorry for the wall of text and that it's in no particular order. With my toddler running rampant I've had to just blast this out while he's distracted. All said and done though I like this list. I probably am going to change Lingering Souls around or the Prisons, maybe both. I felt like they weren't particularly great last night and that maybe Hand Disruption would be a good try in the Meta that I was in. If I play at the other store in my area I will have to include Souls I think. There's about 6 Jund players there. 4 of which are nearly all foil, 1 of them is entirely foil. Basically can't go there without playing Jund in any kind of Modern event. They are the stores most commmon regulars I think.
Excited to play this in SCG Dallas at the end of the month.
OH and by the way, Mesmeric Orb is the All Star performer of this list. I will be adding my 4th back in. It just tears decks apart in the long game and in multiples it's just disgusting. It played a part in almost every match for me.
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