I don't know why you guys think you'll be casting BBE on Turn 4 when you have 6 mana by that point; I'd be casting him on Turn 2 if we want to talk God-hands. It's like every one of you looks at the worst case of BBE, and then compares it to the best case of "Titan on Turn 4"; what the heck???
Personally, I get to play T1 Dork, T2 Stone Rain, T3 BBE into Stone Rain, T4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers to recur Stone Rain, I win. And let's say the BBE did hit a mana dork on Turn 3, or a Sprawl. Then guess what? TURN 4 TITAN, WHOOOAAA!
But hey, I'll just do my testing and present results; not like Classic Ponza's been presenting any in the past few months or anything.
Pure power level wise- BBE is the best gruul card that is modern legal at the moment. It is an auto 4 of in this deck. If you want to play a "fair" game plan with obstinate baloths, p&k, and chameleon colossus that is all well and good- but it is simply not good enough and is way too cute for a format like modern- these turn 3 plays are basically just concessions to unfair decks like storm, ad naus, affinity, goryos vengeance, etc. There's a reason that ponza doesn't put up consistently good results- and that's because it simply lacks the overall power level and explosiveness that other decks do. BBE enables possible turn 2 and consistent turn 3 3/2 haste into stone rain, blood moon, or another threat like tireless tracker. If you are on the play and hit the nut draw- you've slammed a 3/2 body, blown up your opponent's only land, and are going to have access to at least 5 mana on turn 3. That is a play that almost zero decks will be able to recover from especially if you curve out. It pushes ponza into a place from doing "fair" things to doing very unfair things. The worst case scenario is that you hit a utopia sprawl or arbor elf off of the cascade triggers- while certainly not ideal- these are still reasonable forms of ramp that may help you curve out into a titan or dragon. It is more than worth it to take the gamble on the elf to make a very up tempo play than to continue trying to win with current lists. Inconsistency and taking risks is part of the game- decks like R/B hollow one and tron are always taking a gamble trying to do unfair things- R/G ponza already has inconsistency issues. If anything, BBE will make it more consistent just because of how powerful it is. In the end I'm guessing a lower to the ground, slightly lowered curve deck becomes the best option. Bonfire is pure ***** anyway, the card is just way too slow for the format and doesn't even do anything to decks like humans because their key creatures are all x/4 by the time you get to cast it for 2.
The problem with this deck is not explosiveness, its consistency and the reliance on Arbor Elf to live for a turn. Maybe Bloodbraid Elf will help in this department, who knows. We need to test first.
This deck lacks late game consistency and gas. I'd rather draw a BBE and cascade into a dork on t3+ than just draw the dork. I'm not sure why anyone thinks this isn't an auto-include in the deck. There's no reason to cling to cards that are marginally bad like Bonfire of the Damned over Lightning Bolt on a stick + Stone Rain/Blood Moon/Molten Rain that also digs you deeper towards other cards.
I don't know why you guys think you'll be casting BBE on Turn 4 when you have 6 mana by that point; I'd be casting him on Turn 2 if we want to talk God-hands. It's like every one of you looks at the worst case of BBE, and then compares it to the best case of "Titan on Turn 4"; what the heck???
This sums up my thoughts on BloodBraid quite nicely. It seems odd to me that we are comparing perfect scenarios, with imperfect ones. I can't help but notice that some people who were previously arguing for the inclusion of additional mana dorks are now suggesting the potential for BloodBraid to "whiff" makes it unplayable - both scenario's it would seem run similar logic regards RNG. Lets apply some of that logic to turn sequence and more average hands:
If you have an average hand, you are probably looking at T1 dork into T2 StoneRain or BloodMoon or Tracker. T3 you are then looking to apply some pressure - either through additional ramp, assuming big threats next turn - or through immediate threats that can gain you advantage for 4 mana (be they creatures, or more control cards). Personally, I can't see why BloodBraid doesn't fit into this decision. Either you will hit an additional element of control - be it Trinisphere, or another Land Destruction spell - or you will simply find the ramp you were having to decide over anyway. I confess this example doesn't exactly take into account great or bad hands, but those hands don't design decks; consistency and making average plays does. We have to ask what could that BloodBraid be, instead? If you are under threat Turn 4, is a Stormbreath Dragon going to save you? What about a Thrun? Do either of them have a higher potential to stabilize a board than casting BloodBraid into a potential control spell or at the very least additional mana next turn? Keep in mind that we don't always have our Blood Moon at this point, or we may have kept a ramp and turn 3 and 4 play without any land destruction. The cascade could turn a lost board into a stable board where putting up another blocker could not. Worse case scenario we play a bigger body next turn and use the BloodBraid to keep us alive?
My concern is that Ponza doesn't suit being restructured towards running a large number of 3 drops and lower. I am not a fan of building decks around a single strategy. So I've decided to include 3 BloodBraids in my testing and remove the Acid-moss in favor of Molten Rain. This allows 16 BloodBraid "good" targets and 8 not particularly good ones. Happily, the majority of my sideboard also fits into BloodBraid range, increasing my hopes for a beneficial result. I'll let you know how it goes! Lets keep the conversation going.
Nah Jace is overrated. He much like bitterblossom will hit like a thud. People will try to make it work but will find out it isn’t all that. Between the 2 BBE keeps Jace in check. Joban while some scoff I promise you BBE is what we should be playing at least as a 3 of and will alter the cards we play. Mizzium Mortars definitely makes a case now and BOP is absolutely the worst of garbage.
Don't get me wrong, Cajun; I'm all aboard the BBE Ponza train. That's actually why I made the comment; I proposed the possibility of a BBE list back in November when the rumor mill started churning and the majority opinion was that BBE has no place in Ponza and wouldn't be played if unbanned. Will this be the case? It very well could be, but we won't know until we get some data points. Talk about Winds of Change, amIrite?
I'd like to make some room for a Beast Within but this is pretty tuned to my meta and also tuned to the fact that Jace/BBE will be everywhere. Not worried about the Tron backlash (we're Ponza) or Aggro.
EDIT 2:
After 5-6 matches of testing against UW Control/GDS/Affinity, I made room for the Beast Within and I'm much happier. Without Inferno Titan, MWAM isn't as important and the deck just runs smooth lower to the ground.
Hello, long time lerker first time poster here, i have slowly building the deck, just got my Bloodbraids, I was thinking of using them in a revolt GR or naya aggro-Revolt zoo list, but saw the recent discussion and hope to try out this deck out with them. I love the decks versatility.
I am going to be honest, the thought of T2 Cascading into a Blood moon or magus of the moon makes me hot and heavy.
My local meta is eternally: Burn, control, infect, and midrange. There is some variance in decks with some of the players, but the earlier types are always 3+ players during modern events.
Wanting to go:
+4 Bloodbraid Elf
+1 Tireless Tracker
+1 land
-1 Magus of the moon
-1 Stormbreath Dragon
-1 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Inferno Titan
-2 Birds of Paradise
I have to agree, Bloodbraid Elf just seems like pure gas for this deck:
1) You cast it, it gets countered, you still get a free card (Cascade is a cast trigger).
2) You hit a ramp spell, you get to your 5-6 mana finishers sooner, and are left with a 3/2 haste body.
3) You hit a Blood Moon or a Stone Rain, it may be an automatic game win. If not, you have a threat.
4) You hit a sideboard card (Anger of the gods, Trinisphere), it may be a win for you straight away.
Of course, that means you avoid Bonfire of the Damned, but it was already out of my deck at this point.
Despite my initial dislike of Bloodbraid, after reading a lot of comments on people both praising and criticizing it's usefulness in Ponza, I have to admit I understand both arguments. There's definitely space for it in certain builds, but other builds do not want it. I'm a long time supporter of Goblin Dark-Dwellers being useful in Ponza, but also see it as not as useful in certain builds. Both Bloodbraid and Dark-Dwellers affect how you design the rest of your deck, so in that aspect they're the same. Once the hype dies down, we'll likely have people revert to BBE-less builds, and others will keep their BBE lists.
Here's the BBE Ponza list I came up with last Fall; I've since tweaked it to account for shifts in the meta, but it's the list that I'll be testing out. I will say one thing: if the BBE hype holds up and it finds success in the format, I think it's inevitable that there will be a divergence point where two versions of the "Ponza" build will break away; one being an actual Ponza list still running ramp and a suite of LD options, but with a lower curve and then another being more of a Gruul Midrange deck that may look like Ponza at first glance, but the only real similarities will be Blood Moon.
Haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet, but this was my first attempt at incorporating BBE while not ending up with just a "Gruul Moon" list. As much as it hurts gutting and re-tooling the ramp package, I think it's necessary if we're going to be playing a set of BBE. Noble Hierarch lets us ramp, but she also offers additional utility from her ability. For some, cutting BoP seems like the obvious option, but the real floor for BBE is cascading into an Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl as play sets of those two cards would account for ~13% of the deck. I'm sure I'll make countless changes to this list as the BBE experiment goes on, but this is my starting point. Other considerations: Simian Spirit Guide, Fire-Lit Thicket, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, & a whole different list that cuts GDD + some of the instant/sorcery spells in favor of more creatures. Thoughts and opinions welcomed. I'll try to provide updates of any results.
I am both pleasantly surprised and horrified by the restructuring you have undergone there. As I stated in my last comment, I really don't want to see Ponza become a deck reliant on BBE, but if you are to run it seriously then I imagine that is how you would do so! The notion of investing in Goyfs and Hierarch is making me want to stay well away, however. This is my present post elf build, are there enough targets to make it worth playing do we think?
Long story short, my build revolves around the synergy between Courser of Kruphix, Tireless Tracker and Bloodbraid Elf. These three cards really get much better together.
Yea, I was sold on x4 Courser + x2 Tracker before BBE, and I completely agree, predictable Cascading is just gas. My only concern is getting caught off guard in my meta by Dredge or the few Graveyard-heavy Grixis Control lists (we're talking 4-5 players out of ~30 so it's sizeable enough for me).
In an open meta, I'd probably shave both Scavenging Ooze mainboard for 2 Courser of Kruphix, maybe fitting one Scooze back in the SB. I'd also consider cutting one (maybe two) Tireless Tracker from the main to test Jadelight Ranger since he not only grows but can set up a Cascade on his own as well.
There is still 1 nonbo I don’t like between BBE and Trinisphere but in those matchups where I bring in Trinisphere I can side out BBE. Still not sold this is the build I am gonna stick with but I am gonna take some time to play test this and report back.
Personally, I get to play T1 Dork, T2 Stone Rain, T3 BBE into Stone Rain, T4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers to recur Stone Rain, I win. And let's say the BBE did hit a mana dork on Turn 3, or a Sprawl. Then guess what? TURN 4 TITAN, WHOOOAAA!
But hey, I'll just do my testing and present results; not like Classic Ponza's been presenting any in the past few months or anything.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
This sums up my thoughts on BloodBraid quite nicely. It seems odd to me that we are comparing perfect scenarios, with imperfect ones. I can't help but notice that some people who were previously arguing for the inclusion of additional mana dorks are now suggesting the potential for BloodBraid to "whiff" makes it unplayable - both scenario's it would seem run similar logic regards RNG. Lets apply some of that logic to turn sequence and more average hands:
If you have an average hand, you are probably looking at T1 dork into T2 StoneRain or BloodMoon or Tracker. T3 you are then looking to apply some pressure - either through additional ramp, assuming big threats next turn - or through immediate threats that can gain you advantage for 4 mana (be they creatures, or more control cards). Personally, I can't see why BloodBraid doesn't fit into this decision. Either you will hit an additional element of control - be it Trinisphere, or another Land Destruction spell - or you will simply find the ramp you were having to decide over anyway. I confess this example doesn't exactly take into account great or bad hands, but those hands don't design decks; consistency and making average plays does. We have to ask what could that BloodBraid be, instead? If you are under threat Turn 4, is a Stormbreath Dragon going to save you? What about a Thrun? Do either of them have a higher potential to stabilize a board than casting BloodBraid into a potential control spell or at the very least additional mana next turn? Keep in mind that we don't always have our Blood Moon at this point, or we may have kept a ramp and turn 3 and 4 play without any land destruction. The cascade could turn a lost board into a stable board where putting up another blocker could not. Worse case scenario we play a bigger body next turn and use the BloodBraid to keep us alive?
My concern is that Ponza doesn't suit being restructured towards running a large number of 3 drops and lower. I am not a fan of building decks around a single strategy. So I've decided to include 3 BloodBraids in my testing and remove the Acid-moss in favor of Molten Rain. This allows 16 BloodBraid "good" targets and 8 not particularly good ones. Happily, the majority of my sideboard also fits into BloodBraid range, increasing my hopes for a beneficial result. I'll let you know how it goes! Lets keep the conversation going.
Don't get me wrong, Cajun; I'm all aboard the BBE Ponza train. That's actually why I made the comment; I proposed the possibility of a BBE list back in November when the rumor mill started churning and the majority opinion was that BBE has no place in Ponza and wouldn't be played if unbanned. Will this be the case? It very well could be, but we won't know until we get some data points. Talk about Winds of Change, amIrite?
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
EDIT:
Here's my list for next week's paper testing:
4 Arbor Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Instants:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Beast Within
Sorcery:
4 Stone Rain
2 Molten Rain
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Enchantments:
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
Land:
2 Mountain
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Shatterstorm
2 Nature's Claim
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Pithing Needle
3 Choke
2 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grafdigger's Cage
I'd like to make some room for a Beast Within but this is pretty tuned to my meta and also tuned to the fact that Jace/BBE will be everywhere. Not worried about the Tron backlash (we're Ponza) or Aggro.
EDIT 2:
After 5-6 matches of testing against UW Control/GDS/Affinity, I made room for the Beast Within and I'm much happier. Without Inferno Titan, MWAM isn't as important and the deck just runs smooth lower to the ground.
I am going to be honest, the thought of T2 Cascading into a Blood moon or magus of the moon makes me hot and heavy.
My local meta is eternally: Burn, control, infect, and midrange. There is some variance in decks with some of the players, but the earlier types are always 3+ players during modern events.
Wanting to go:
+4 Bloodbraid Elf
+1 Tireless Tracker
+1 land
-1 Magus of the moon
-1 Stormbreath Dragon
-1 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Inferno Titan
-2 Birds of Paradise
Creatures:
4 Arbor Elf
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Magus of the moon
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
3 Stormbreath Dragon
Instants:
2 Beast Within
Sorcery:
1 Primal Command
4 Stone Rain
2 Molten Rain
1 Mizzium Mortars
0 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
0 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
0 Nissa
Enchantments:
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
Land 21:
1 Mountain
1 Kessif Wolf Run
8 Forest
2 Cinder Glade
1 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Beast Within
1 Primal command
3 Trinisphere
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Sudden Shock
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dragon's Claw
2 Choke
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Defense Grid
1) You cast it, it gets countered, you still get a free card (Cascade is a cast trigger).
2) You hit a ramp spell, you get to your 5-6 mana finishers sooner, and are left with a 3/2 haste body.
3) You hit a Blood Moon or a Stone Rain, it may be an automatic game win. If not, you have a threat.
4) You hit a sideboard card (Anger of the gods, Trinisphere), it may be a win for you straight away.
Of course, that means you avoid Bonfire of the Damned, but it was already out of my deck at this point.
Oh, and the Team Modern Super League has one Blood Ponza deck. The other team is so scared of it, they voted it out of the league! Here are the decklists: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-online/team-modern-super-league-decklists
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Creature (21)
2 Inferno Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Thragtusk
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Stone Rain
3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
Enchantment (8)
4 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
Land (22)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
9 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Magus of the Moon
Instants(6):
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Beast Within
4 Stone Rain
2 Molten Rain
Planeswalkers(4):
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Domri Rade
Enchantments:
4 Blood Moon
Land(21):
2 Mountain
7 Forest
1 Cinder Glade
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Abrade
1 Chameleon Colossus
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Trinisphere
Haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet, but this was my first attempt at incorporating BBE while not ending up with just a "Gruul Moon" list. As much as it hurts gutting and re-tooling the ramp package, I think it's necessary if we're going to be playing a set of BBE. Noble Hierarch lets us ramp, but she also offers additional utility from her ability. For some, cutting BoP seems like the obvious option, but the real floor for BBE is cascading into an Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl as play sets of those two cards would account for ~13% of the deck. I'm sure I'll make countless changes to this list as the BBE experiment goes on, but this is my starting point. Other considerations: Simian Spirit Guide, Fire-Lit Thicket, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, & a whole different list that cuts GDD + some of the instant/sorcery spells in favor of more creatures. Thoughts and opinions welcomed. I'll try to provide updates of any results.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Arbor Elf
Control:
4x Stone Rain
4x Blood Moon
3x Molten Rain
2x Trinisphere
Threats:
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Inferno Titan
3x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Thrun, the last Troll
3x BloodBraid Elf
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Primal Command
Land:
3x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Mountain
10x Forest
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Fracturing Gust
2x Abrade
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Beast Within
1x Boil
2x Obstinate Baloth
Yea, I was sold on x4 Courser + x2 Tracker before BBE, and I completely agree, predictable Cascading is just gas. My only concern is getting caught off guard in my meta by Dredge or the few Graveyard-heavy Grixis Control lists (we're talking 4-5 players out of ~30 so it's sizeable enough for me).
In an open meta, I'd probably shave both Scavenging Ooze mainboard for 2 Courser of Kruphix, maybe fitting one Scooze back in the SB. I'd also consider cutting one (maybe two) Tireless Tracker from the main to test Jadelight Ranger since he not only grows but can set up a Cascade on his own as well.
It's sweet mill mainboard tech.
22 Lands
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 BBE
1 Courser
3 Tracker
2 Hazoret
2 Stormbreath
1 Thragtusk
1 Nissa VOZ
2 Chandra TOD
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Blood Moon
SB:
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Firespout
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Trinisphere
There is still 1 nonbo I don’t like between BBE and Trinisphere but in those matchups where I bring in Trinisphere I can side out BBE. Still not sold this is the build I am gonna stick with but I am gonna take some time to play test this and report back.
I think this looks intriguing. Seems like enough hits without too many dead ones.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Creature (20)
4x Arbor Elf
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Tireless Tracker
Planeswalker (1)
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Land (20)
8x Forest
1x Mountain
3x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Sorcery (8)
4x Molten Rain
4x Stone Rain
Enchantment (8)
4x Blood Moon
4x Utopia Sprawl
Artifact (3)
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Sword of Light and Shadow
Hm, swords + Finks seems interesting. Very heavy on the BBE interaction with 0 SBD/0 Titan/1 Chandra.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.