1. Lost Legacy - This is our replacement for slaughter games. It is one turn faster than it that's why I use this instead of the later.
Not quite sure it's better, probably depends on your local meta. Slaughter Games had some utility against slow counter heavy deck, where Legacy would be pretty bad. For the more usual Cranial-Extraction-ish matchups, it depends. The double black cost might hurt us, but I guess it's basically as much a problem as the 4 CMC of Games in terms of mana issues.
It's better against GR Valakut, Bloomless Amulet, GrishoalBrand.
It's worse against BtL Shift, Ad Nauseam, Eggs, Jeskai Control.
Against Gifts, it probably depends on how much countermagic they're running, but speed means LL is probably better in this matchup.
I probably forgot a few deck, I'd be glad if you told me which ones
Kari Zev Expertise as a 9th Living End seems decent to me, I'll try it out.
IMHO speed is everything. Even though it is quite difficult to cast lost legacy on turn two via SSG due to it having double black, it is still possible - we just need to use the right mana base like using Verdants for our fetches and blackclave and blooming for our fast lands.
Though I agree that it is better against Valakut, Amulet-Titan and Grishoalbrand, I still think it can also make wonders on BTL scapeshift and Ad Naus even if they are running counter magic. We just have to bait or spells like doing EOT living end on them and when they are tapped out on our turn, we can fire lost legacy.
But, I will agree on you when it comes to hard control decks like Jeskai control or UW control. These matches will surely test your patience, but my game plan against them is mostly Land destruction then try to grind them slowly.
The only time I will only regret using Lost Legacy over Slaughter Games is against Eggs and Lantern.
Anyway, I hope the new red expertise card can live to our expectations. Anyone already using it as a 1 of on your lists? How did it go?
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Modern WBG Abzan's Junk WBG BRG Jund BRG BRG Living End BRG BGU Sultai BGU
Guys, how do you feel about Heroic Intervention being sided against board wipes? I cant count how many games i lost to control only because after i finally sneaked LE through their counter defence they got their supreme verdict ready. What do you think? Is it worth slot or 2 in our SB?
Guys, how do you feel about Heroic Intervention being sided against board wipes? I cant count how many games i lost to control only because after i finally sneaked LE through their counter defence they got their supreme verdict ready. What do you think? Is it worth slot or 2 in our SB?
The big problem with Heroic Intervention is that you can hit it off of a Cascade spell. I imagine the times it saves you from a wipe won't make up for the times it blanks the most important part of your deck. Seems like the best answer to board wipes is to Cascade into another Living End and get everything back (since most of our creatures dodge Anger of the Gods).
If there's a 3-CMC card that could do something similar, that could be worth exploring.
[edit]Oops, ninjad! Good call on Avalanche Riders. I'm intending to bring two SB to my FNMs.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Well in blue tron I guess but blue tron is not played nearly as much as GR tron. But even in blue tron, I just go for their lands so they don't even have the mana to cast those artifacts...it's not that different from GR tron in approach.
And while hitting relic is nice, slaughter games is 4 mana meaning we either fire it off turn 4 without acceleration or in the rarest of scenarios, T2 earliest with acceleration. If the opponent had relic, they would've already played it by then because there is no sense in holding up relic past turn 1 against us. If they don't have a relic by turn 4, we just pop off instead of trying to remove it.
Well in blue tron I guess but blue tron is not played nearly as much as GR tron. But even in blue tron, I just go for their lands so they don't even have the mana to cast those artifacts...it's not that different from GR tron in approach.
And while hitting relic is nice, slaughter games is 4 mana meaning we either fire it off turn 4 without acceleration or in the rarest of scenarios, T2 earliest with acceleration. If the opponent had relic, they would've already played it by then because there is no sense in holding up relic past turn 1 against us. If they don't have a relic by turn 4, we just pop off instead of trying to remove it.
If someone gets off an early blood moon, if all you have is 1 basic swamp in your deck your not going to get your double black for lost legacy cast.
also against Lanturn decks its worthwhile to bring in, as they certainly have artifacts you will want to extract. off the top of my head ensnaring bridge is a good choice.
Avalanche Riders riders seems interesting, will think about that.
But another silly idea, have anyone tested Puphurous (MB or SB)? Seems to me it could end games pretty quickly even against control (good luck with you board wipe, when I get 1 LE you are dead instantly) or against RW prison (my second most hated matchup).
Y'know, mentioning sideboard slots/CMC and Lantern made me think that maybe depending on your expected/known meta, a few Kolaghan's Command sideboard may be worth looking at. If you're often getting shut down by Ensnaring Bridge (and also have other artifact-heavy matchups), it's another out along with Beast Within. It can also recur a cycler to help you dig or a land destruction bear before going off. Because we explicitly don't want things entering our opponent's graveyard, I don't think the alternate modes are useful enough for our deck to make it worthwhile without good artifacts to blow up (and we already have Ingot Chewer out the board for that), but maybe it's worth considering.
Purphoros, God of the Forge is a really interesting idea. Not sure how it would play out since the best way to use it is to pitch it so you can reanimate it (or else you're looking at going off turn 5 most of the time, at best), but it could deal a ton of damage if you somehow Living End it out.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Yeah I thought about Purphoros, God of the Forge for the slower matchups like UW control and RW prison. where you really dont need to spin LE turn 4 basically because they always have counters ready. Turn 4 you play this and it either stays on the battlefield or gets countered and in your graveyard. its win win. then you slowly fill your grave then BAM! one LE later and you win
Jeskai Nahiri needs lands, specific combinations of them and a reliance on blue. Once again, very prone to LD. I've rarely felt the need to SB in slaughter games against them for their win con because resolving LE against them is much more efficient and that is why we have ricochet traps in the SB, to protect our combo when we go off.
If someone gets off an early blood moon, if all you have is 1 basic swamp in your deck your not going to get your double black for lost legacy cast.
If I suspect blood moon anywhere in the 75, i'm not bringing in a lost legacy. Those decks don't require lost legacy.
also against Lanturn decks its worthwhile to bring in, as they certainly have artifacts you will want to extract. off the top of my head ensnaring bridge is a good choice.
I'd take my chances with a combination of beast withins and ingot chewers. Plenty of artifact destruction to work with and baring the lucky surgical, bridge is the only card we need to deal with and we have multiple chances with our ingot chewers evoked or off the LE.
Yeah I thought about Purphoros, God of the Forge for the slower matchups like UW control and RW prison. where you really dont need to spin LE turn 4 basically because they always have counters ready. Turn 4 you play this and it either stays on the battlefield or gets countered and in your graveyard. its win win. then you slowly fill your grave then BAM! one LE later and you win
Good point; I forgot Living End doesn't do anything to a resolved Purpheros because it's not a creature at that point.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Jeskai Nahiri needs lands, specific combinations of them and a reliance on blue. Once again, very prone to LD. I've rarely felt the need to SB in slaughter games against them for their win con because resolving LE against them is much more efficient and that is why we have ricochet traps in the SB, to protect our combo when we go off.
If someone gets off an early blood moon, if all you have is 1 basic swamp in your deck your not going to get your double black for lost legacy cast.
If I suspect blood moon anywhere in the 75, i'm not bringing in a lost legacy. Those decks don't require lost legacy.
also against Lanturn decks its worthwhile to bring in, as they certainly have artifacts you will want to extract. off the top of my head ensnaring bridge is a good choice.
I'd take my chances with a combination of beast withins and ingot chewers. Plenty of artifact destruction to work with and baring the lucky surgical, bridge is the only card we need to deal with and we have multiple chances with our ingot chewers evoked or off the LE.
responding to each of your points.
1. unless you are land locking your opponent by pulling the multiples of fulminator mage and/or beast within, a Nahiri player can grind to 4 lands and drop a Nahiri, and still have interaction to grind on until she ultimates.
once she is on the field typically all you have is beast within, don't take chances, sideboard in extract effects to sure up your ability to eliminate them. IE lost legacy or slaughter games, what ever your choice.
2. whether is Blue Moon or REd WHite prison they can lock you down, ghostly prison, blood moon, ensnaring bridge, suppression field, god knows what combination of nasty enchantment and artifacts they are using as lock down pieces, your only out will initially be beast within games 2 and 3 you need to bring in extraction spells to take out such threats in multiples so beast within can destroy the ones they do manage to play on you.
3. against Lantern its worth bringing in 1-2 slaughter games. extracting all their lanterns is pure value, but that isn't even going for their jugular interms of interaction. 1 slaughter games might take out either their Relics/Crypts or wincondition (Ghirapur Aether Grid) forcing them strickly into a long grindy mill as their only means to win, which is horrible for them as it flips the game to living ends favor.
unless you are land locking your opponent by pulling the multiples of fulminator mage and/or beast within, a Nahiri player can grind to 4 lands and drop a Nahiri, and still have interaction to grind on until she ultimates.
If they drop a Nahiri with only 4 lands, they're as good as dead. I'm no expert in playing that deck, but that is a dumb ass move.
whether is Blue Moon or REd WHite prison they can lock you down, ghostly prison, blood moon, ensnaring bridge, suppression field, god knows what combination of nasty enchantment and artifacts they are using as lock down pieces, your only out will initially be beast within games 2 and 3 you need to bring in extraction spells to take out such threats in multiples so beast within can destroy the ones they do manage to play on you.
First off, blue moon is not a prison deck and fallen to fringe levels of play. And Living End lists can be quite resilient against blood moon, mine in particular so i'm not worried about that card period.
Second, suppression field does relatively little against me so i'm not worried about that one either. The only real issue is bridge and ghostly prison. Bridge is more prevalent, being in more decks so I have the corresponding amount of answers but ghostly prison only sees play in WR prison which is a very very rare deck to come across. I'm not going to SB for fringe decks, especially in major events which is what the focus of the discussion.
against Lantern its worth bringing in 1-2 slaughter games. extracting all their lanterns is pure value, but that isn't even going for their jugular interms of interaction. 1 slaughter games might take out either their Relics/Crypts or wincondition (Ghirapur Aether Grid) forcing them strickly into a long grindy mill as their only means to win, which is horrible for them as it flips the game to living ends favor.
The only card in lantern i've found to be truly problematic is bridge. And while slaughter games can hit that and lost legacy can't, I already have 7-8 slots for artifact destruction to work with and i'd rather shore up my other matchups that slaughter games isn't fast enough for, you know like Ad Naus, chord/company combo, and grishoalbrand that have recently been on the rise while decks like lantern continue to represent a small portion of the metagame.
I've been checking the Living End decks from Hareruya's Website. I've been seeing a lot of Siege Rhino and Thragtusk in the main deck. I even saw one decklist with 4 Stormbreath Dragon in the main. Has anyone tried this?
I tried goldfishing with 4 Rhinos in the MD, and it seems okay in the main. SSG can help you play it T3 or you can play it a turn after you living end. I might try this build in my next tourney. But I'm curious if anyone here has tried it in their playtest/tournamens
One cool note about adding white to cast Rhinos, they play sin collector in the sideboard as well. Removing ricochet trap in the process.
The Meta is wide open and i predict to face any kind of weird deck.
The only change i've made is the 3 - 1- 3 Split on Fulminator Mage, Kolaghan's command and beast within instead of
4 - 1 - 2. My reasoning is that i expect some kind of crazy sort of decks that rely heavily on sticking Enchantments, Artifacts or even Planeswalkers as there primarily way to win. Sun & Moon, Skred, Nahiri, Esper Control, Mardu Good Stuff and so on.
I'm just afraid of Delver Decks because many Snapcaster Fans are still on the Flashback-train in my area.
Therefore i need to finalize my sideboard-plan against Grixis Control / Delver.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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I've been checking the Living End decks from Hareruya's Website. I've been seeing a lot of Siege Rhino and Thragtusk in the main deck. I even saw one decklist with 4 Stormbreath Dragon in the main. Has anyone tried this?
I tried goldfishing with 4 Rhinos in the MD, and it seems okay in the main. SSG can help you play it T3 or you can play it a turn after you living end. I might try this build in my next tourney. But I'm curious if anyone here has tried it in their playtest/tournamens
One cool note about adding white to cast Rhinos, they play sin collector in the sideboard as well. Removing ricochet trap in the process.
How are you supposed to get those creatures into the graveyard though?
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Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
Last minute decision to attend SCG's regional champs at Baltimore. First time playing living end in the new fatal push meta and this is the list i've tentatively settled on.
I'm mulling over the 4th simian, I don't it's necessary anymore and probably more fruitful to open up that slot for something like shriekmaw which is more versatile. Aside from that, my mainboard took out a single architect for a jungle weaver which I think will do well in the more midrangy meta.
My sideboard will see lost legacy for the first time and i'm gambling once again on not facing burn. I did this at a high 200s person WMCQ and was rewarded by dodging burn in all my matches. I'm going to push my luck again.
Damping Matrix (like intended in the Primer) hurts ourself, because Cycling is an activated Ability O_o
Crazy question though:
Isn't this deck able to run Domri Rade in the sideboard against Decks w/o a real clock (Control in the first place) ?
no, damping matrix only affect creatures on the battlefield. not creatures in the hand, so cycling is still valid. what id does hurt is fulminator mage, but if your using matrix, destroying lands probably isn't a priority.
matrix compared to suppression field this hits all areas, hand, library, graveyard, battlefield, exile zone etc, making cycling next to impossible.
as for domri rade i use to run him in my deck, he has good synergy, being an extra card draw or creature removal on a stick. only in "screwed up" "grindy" "how the hell did this happen" sorts of games will the game be long enough for him to get his ultimate off. usually his -2 makes a creature fight a would be blocker and opens the path to victory in the attack step. he competes for space in the same slots as kolaghan's command would.
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IMHO speed is everything. Even though it is quite difficult to cast lost legacy on turn two via SSG due to it having double black, it is still possible - we just need to use the right mana base like using Verdants for our fetches and blackclave and blooming for our fast lands.
Though I agree that it is better against Valakut, Amulet-Titan and Grishoalbrand, I still think it can also make wonders on BTL scapeshift and Ad Naus even if they are running counter magic. We just have to bait or spells like doing EOT living end on them and when they are tapped out on our turn, we can fire lost legacy.
But, I will agree on you when it comes to hard control decks like Jeskai control or UW control. These matches will surely test your patience, but my game plan against them is mostly Land destruction then try to grind them slowly.
The only time I will only regret using Lost Legacy over Slaughter Games is against Eggs and Lantern.
Anyway, I hope the new red expertise card can live to our expectations. Anyone already using it as a 1 of on your lists? How did it go?
WBG Abzan's Junk WBG
BRG Jund BRG
BRG Living End BRG
BGU Sultai BGU
EDH
R Purphoros, God of the Forge R
Pauper
RBGU Affinity RBGU
The big problem with Heroic Intervention is that you can hit it off of a Cascade spell. I imagine the times it saves you from a wipe won't make up for the times it blanks the most important part of your deck. Seems like the best answer to board wipes is to Cascade into another Living End and get everything back (since most of our creatures dodge Anger of the Gods).
If there's a 3-CMC card that could do something similar, that could be worth exploring.
[edit]Oops, ninjad! Good call on Avalanche Riders. I'm intending to bring two SB to my FNMs.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
tron threats for 1. minslaver, wurmcoil engine.
knocking out relic and crypt when we know rthey came in is impotant too.
And while hitting relic is nice, slaughter games is 4 mana meaning we either fire it off turn 4 without acceleration or in the rarest of scenarios, T2 earliest with acceleration. If the opponent had relic, they would've already played it by then because there is no sense in holding up relic past turn 1 against us. If they don't have a relic by turn 4, we just pop off instead of trying to remove it.
consider blue white red nahiri, the harbinger style decks, last thing you want is your lost legacy being countered when you go after either Nahiri or emrakul, the aeons torn.
If someone gets off an early blood moon, if all you have is 1 basic swamp in your deck your not going to get your double black for lost legacy cast.
also against Lanturn decks its worthwhile to bring in, as they certainly have artifacts you will want to extract. off the top of my head ensnaring bridge is a good choice.
Avalanche Riders riders seems interesting, will think about that.
But another silly idea, have anyone tested Puphurous (MB or SB)? Seems to me it could end games pretty quickly even against control (good luck with you board wipe, when I get 1 LE you are dead instantly) or against RW prison (my second most hated matchup).
Purphoros, God of the Forge is a really interesting idea. Not sure how it would play out since the best way to use it is to pitch it so you can reanimate it (or else you're looking at going off turn 5 most of the time, at best), but it could deal a ton of damage if you somehow Living End it out.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Jeskai Nahiri needs lands, specific combinations of them and a reliance on blue. Once again, very prone to LD. I've rarely felt the need to SB in slaughter games against them for their win con because resolving LE against them is much more efficient and that is why we have ricochet traps in the SB, to protect our combo when we go off.
If I suspect blood moon anywhere in the 75, i'm not bringing in a lost legacy. Those decks don't require lost legacy.
I'd take my chances with a combination of beast withins and ingot chewers. Plenty of artifact destruction to work with and baring the lucky surgical, bridge is the only card we need to deal with and we have multiple chances with our ingot chewers evoked or off the LE.
Good point; I forgot Living End doesn't do anything to a resolved Purpheros because it's not a creature at that point.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
responding to each of your points.
1. unless you are land locking your opponent by pulling the multiples of fulminator mage and/or beast within, a Nahiri player can grind to 4 lands and drop a Nahiri, and still have interaction to grind on until she ultimates.
once she is on the field typically all you have is beast within, don't take chances, sideboard in extract effects to sure up your ability to eliminate them. IE lost legacy or slaughter games, what ever your choice.
2. whether is Blue Moon or REd WHite prison they can lock you down, ghostly prison, blood moon, ensnaring bridge, suppression field, god knows what combination of nasty enchantment and artifacts they are using as lock down pieces, your only out will initially be beast within games 2 and 3 you need to bring in extraction spells to take out such threats in multiples so beast within can destroy the ones they do manage to play on you.
3. against Lantern its worth bringing in 1-2 slaughter games. extracting all their lanterns is pure value, but that isn't even going for their jugular interms of interaction. 1 slaughter games might take out either their Relics/Crypts or wincondition (Ghirapur Aether Grid) forcing them strickly into a long grindy mill as their only means to win, which is horrible for them as it flips the game to living ends favor.
If they drop a Nahiri with only 4 lands, they're as good as dead. I'm no expert in playing that deck, but that is a dumb ass move.
First off, blue moon is not a prison deck and fallen to fringe levels of play. And Living End lists can be quite resilient against blood moon, mine in particular so i'm not worried about that card period.
Second, suppression field does relatively little against me so i'm not worried about that one either. The only real issue is bridge and ghostly prison. Bridge is more prevalent, being in more decks so I have the corresponding amount of answers but ghostly prison only sees play in WR prison which is a very very rare deck to come across. I'm not going to SB for fringe decks, especially in major events which is what the focus of the discussion.
The only card in lantern i've found to be truly problematic is bridge. And while slaughter games can hit that and lost legacy can't, I already have 7-8 slots for artifact destruction to work with and i'd rather shore up my other matchups that slaughter games isn't fast enough for, you know like Ad Naus, chord/company combo, and grishoalbrand that have recently been on the rise while decks like lantern continue to represent a small portion of the metagame.
I tried goldfishing with 4 Rhinos in the MD, and it seems okay in the main. SSG can help you play it T3 or you can play it a turn after you living end. I might try this build in my next tourney. But I'm curious if anyone here has tried it in their playtest/tournamens
One cool note about adding white to cast Rhinos, they play sin collector in the sideboard as well. Removing ricochet trap in the process.
i am heading for a mid-sized Modern tournament on sunday and expect 50 - 80 people attending the Competition.
Here's my list for reference:
2 grove of the burnwillows
1 copperline gorge
1 blooming marsh
3 blackcleave cliffs
1 stomping ground
1 overgrown tomb
1 temple garden
1 blood crypt
1 mountain
1 swamp
1 forest
1 dryad arbor
3 pale recluse
2 jungle weaver
4 monstrous carabid
4 deadshot minotaur
3 fulminator mage
3 simian spirit guides
2 faerie macabre
2 shriekmaw
3 beast within
1 kolaghan's command
3 daemonic dread
4 violent outburst
3 living end
3 ingot chewer
3 brindle boar
2 dismember
2 ricochet trap
1 anger of the gods
1 thrun, the last troll
1 beast within
1 leyline of the void
1 faerie macabre
The Meta is wide open and i predict to face any kind of weird deck.
The only change i've made is the 3 - 1- 3 Split on Fulminator Mage, Kolaghan's command and beast within instead of
4 - 1 - 2. My reasoning is that i expect some kind of crazy sort of decks that rely heavily on sticking Enchantments, Artifacts or even Planeswalkers as there primarily way to win. Sun & Moon, Skred, Nahiri, Esper Control, Mardu Good Stuff and so on.
I'm just afraid of Delver Decks because many Snapcaster Fans are still on the Flashback-train in my area.
Therefore i need to finalize my sideboard-plan against Grixis Control / Delver.
What do you think?
Green @ it's best
Damping Matrix (like intended in the Primer) hurts ourself, because Cycling is an activated Ability O_o
Crazy question though:
Isn't this deck able to run Domri Rade in the sideboard against Decks w/o a real clock (Control in the first place) ?
Green @ it's best
How are you supposed to get those creatures into the graveyard though?
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
4 street wraith
4 deadshot minotaur
4 fulminator mage
4 simian spirit guide
3 architects of will
2 pale recluse
1 jungle weaver
1 faerie macabre
4 beast within
4 violent outburst
3 demonic dread
3 living end
3 blackcleave cliffs
2 copperline gorge
2 blooming marsh
1 blood crypt
1 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
1 godless shrine
1 forest
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 kessig wolf run
3 ingot chewer
3 ricochet trap
3 faerie macabre
3 shriekmaw
3 lost legacy
I'm mulling over the 4th simian, I don't it's necessary anymore and probably more fruitful to open up that slot for something like shriekmaw which is more versatile. Aside from that, my mainboard took out a single architect for a jungle weaver which I think will do well in the more midrangy meta.
My sideboard will see lost legacy for the first time and i'm gambling once again on not facing burn. I did this at a high 200s person WMCQ and was rewarded by dodging burn in all my matches. I'm going to push my luck again.
no, damping matrix only affect creatures on the battlefield. not creatures in the hand, so cycling is still valid. what id does hurt is fulminator mage, but if your using matrix, destroying lands probably isn't a priority.
matrix compared to suppression field this hits all areas, hand, library, graveyard, battlefield, exile zone etc, making cycling next to impossible.
as for domri rade i use to run him in my deck, he has good synergy, being an extra card draw or creature removal on a stick. only in "screwed up" "grindy" "how the hell did this happen" sorts of games will the game be long enough for him to get his ultimate off. usually his -2 makes a creature fight a would be blocker and opens the path to victory in the attack step. he competes for space in the same slots as kolaghan's command would.