Hello! I haven't posted since page 18, but I have been lurking the thread while slowly building up and modifying my RG Loam build. This is where I am at now.
Manamorphose is here mostly to help with color fixing, be a draw to turn into dredge and maybe make and elemental from Young Pyromancer. I'm looking into swapping them out for the new Magmatic Insight since the card draw can help dig into my colors. I do intend on getting more Stomping Grounds and Wooded Foothills in the future. I was thinking of eventually getting rid of my Flinthoof Boars for more Scavenging Oozees and maybe Grim Lavamancer; he seems like a neat fit. I'm not sure yet. I have very little opportunity to test, but I like the Boar's haste option.... I'm just not sure if he's good. He feels like a nice paralelle to Kird Ape.
I wanted to share my slow-and-steady progress and get some critique. Thank you all in advanced
Relic is more skill intensive for us for that reason. We need to make them crack it early or we just lose over time.
Needle shuts off viscera seer against company, relic of progenitus against any deck running it and obviously any other activated ability of a card like scavenging ooze. I could go on, but you get the point I'm sure. If you're losing to decks because of 1 card, you either need to adjust your play style or find an answer to that card. I mean, where does a turn 1 vortex get you against a turn 1 relic?
That's the reason i board in Ancient Grudge and Dakmor Salvage to fight Relic of Progenitus.
Both Cards synergise much better with my whole Gameplan. The time my opponent look at Grudge in my hand or grave will be the time
when he has to crack Relic. In testings i was able to recover pretty quickly from relic activations with this plan.
Scavenging Ooze is a tough one, but can be handled with Vortex, Assault, Conflagrate and even Flame Jab.
Again, i try to maximize the Synergy between Maindeck and Sideboard.
Ancient Grudge is probably the best answer to relic. Krosan grip may even be good too if you need it elsewhere so that you can destroy the relic without everything getting exiled in response. Again this is an option if you are struggling against relic. One thing I have found to help it just managing your yard slowly, ping where you can and just build your hand up with 7 land. Once you can just kill them, drop assault and go for the kill. Naturally different match ups will depend on when and how you can do this. But if you do it that way you can avoid relic being an issue all together, and of course if you have access to artifact removal you can also control it that way.
You are probably correct about needle being clunky, but at the same time it can stop a karn which can definitely be a tough obstacle for the deck if your meta has a lot of tron that is still running karn over ugin.
@Trifling - boar is probably much better than ape. It having 3 power and toughness (essentially likely) is relevant against zoo if you have zoo in your meta, the fact it can come off the top and get haste is pretty nice. Ape is fine when you don't have other options, but probably not better than ooze, which gets huge as you clean a board up with assault or vortex, etc. I would switch ape for more ooze and perhaps a ghor-clan rampager or 2 where you have room. It can give your deck a more aggressive zoo feel to it and make it less yard reliant. Also makes combat a nightmare for your opponent. If you have 1 card in hand and you attack, your opponent has to guess whether it's 2 damage to kill their creature with an assault activation or 4 additional power, plus trample from blood rush.
Not sure the black splash is necessary. Tasigur is probably better than command for you though. It requires the 1 black then gives you value in 2 colors you already are heavy on. Huntmaster is definitely a fine option and I would replace the witness for them personally. I never really liked witness in an assault build. I think magmatic insight should replace looting. The 2 witness should be Huntmaster and the 2 command should be a tasigur and a 3rd assault. I think that would make your deck much more competitive and solid overall.
@Trifling - boar is probably much better than ape. It having 3 power and toughness (essentially likely) is relevant against zoo if you have zoo in your meta, the fact it can come off the top and get haste is pretty nice. Ape is fine when you don't have other options, but probably not better than ooze, which gets huge as you clean a board up with assault or vortex, etc. I would switch ape for more ooze and perhaps a ghor-clan rampager or 2 where you have room. It can give your deck a more aggressive zoo feel to it and make it less yard reliant. Also makes combat a nightmare for your opponent. If you have 1 card in hand and you attack, your opponent has to guess whether it's 2 damage to kill their creature with an assault activation or 4 additional power, plus trample from blood rush.
Oh! I didn't think of Ghor-Clan Rampager. Funny enough when I first set out to build this I was thinking of running Wild Hunger for a similar effect, thought the Rampager is better since they won't see it coming, can't be countered in the conventional way, and could be a dude on the field if I really need one. I will experiment with that. Thank you!
Thoughts: Since I am running Young Pyromancer I am hesitant to replace Flame Jab with Molten Vortex. At least at the moment that seems like the logical thing to move out to try the new diet Assault. Maybe one of each? I think this is more a matter of what works best for me, but I figured I would put it out there.
@Tiefling: I certainly understand abusing YP with Flame Jab, fwiw opponents have come to dread the turn 1 Molten Vortex open. It makes everything more complicated for them in a lot of matchups.
I played last night at a LGS, turnout for the tournament was too low, but I got some games in with my Naya Aggro Loam:
Game 1
I start pretty fast with a Nacatl and Vortex, but no Pridemages. She gets natural Tron on turn 3 into Wurmcoil and though I eventually kill it and the lifelink token, I can't quite push through the damage to finish her and lost game 1.
Game 2
I have Nacatl, turn 2 Commune finds Vortex, turn 3 Molten Rain sets her back a little and Nacatl + the Vortex/Loam engine do most of the heavy lifting.
Game 3
I don't have Turn 1 Nacatl, but do have pretty decent removal. I have a Revelry and other answers for the turn 3 Wurmcoil but can't get any big monsters to resolve through the counter wall and eventually get buried by recurring Wurmcoils.
Other games
I played a fair number of less formal games against RWU non-Twin control. Impressions from those games were Vortex is very threatening; I'm a big fan. Evolutionary Leap had its moments, but I felt threat light at times and I will probably cut at least one of the two. I will probably pick up a Ghor-Clan Rampager to go in the Rancor slot; and I am still working on the threat suite. Games I opened with Nacatl against control I won a lot of, and Pridemage is very impressive. I need to fill out the 1-2cc threat spot with one more high quality threat of some kind.
I'm still not sure about the river boa, managorger hydra or evolutionary leap. How has testing been with those? They honestly seem loose at best to me.
I'm still not sure about the river boa, managorger hydra or evolutionary leap. How has testing been with those? They honestly seem loose at best to me.
They are loose.
River Boa is surely a stand-in until I find something better; Scavenging Ooze is the card I would put in today.
Managorger Hydra is tougher to evaluate because it dies as soon as it resolves almost all of the time. On one hand, that is a powerful argument in favor of it, on the other it dies to every removal spell that does more than one damage and costs 3 mana so the removal is cheaper a lot of the time and it is difficult to resolve. If it sticks for more than a turn or two it is a very powerful threat.
Evolutionary Leap used for value not as part of a combo is probably better in some kind of Jund deck that is trying to win by grinding out the game. I really like it; it is really powerful and causes significant problems for the opponent. It is a hell of an advantage in games we're playing "fair Magic", but in this environment of combo kills it might be better coming out of the Board for grindy matchups. I am probably going to remove one and try Garruk Wildspeaker in its place.
Please bear in mind, I view long term decks like this one as a continuous evolution. I enjoy trying different combinations and only tend to lock into a list for big events.
I definitely agree with trying to evolve a reck. I've done it many times with different archetypes. I was really just curious as to how your testing went with leap since I found it very enticing to brew with.
Here's some more color on Evolutionary Leap in the games I've played; it is a very asymmetric card depending on the information you have.
It is easy to picture looking at your hand, having Leap and no creatures and really wishing it was any castable creature. At the same time, if the opponent hasn't seen your hand and you're sitting on more than a card or two, casting it is extremely threatening. Anyone expecting to play fair Magic will very likely put a high priority on countering it; basically if it resolves against a blue deck, it is very likely they couldn't counter it. The combo decks don't care in the slightest about it, which is another argument for the sideboard.
I think in my current deck its probably not good enough, but I will be brewing with it for a long time to come. If, for example, I were to incorporate Polymorph's Hellspark Elemental as a two drop, its utility would go up significantly. Once it is in play, the effect is amazing.
Black adds a lot of possibilities of course, hand destruction, removal like Abrupt Decay and card draw like Dark Confidant.
With regard to Brownscale, I tend to agree looping him isn't the strongest effect, though with all of your looting you get a lot out of him.
Against Burn, I am splashing White, so I have better options. Maindeck Lightning Helix and Dromoka's Command give my deck some game against burn; straight RG or RGB is probably going to have to rely on either winning both post-board games or a green spell of some kind.
Against Delver, plan A is to throw land or bolts at the delvers. My deck has more issues with Anglers and Tasigur's than Delvers themselves because I'm not playing Path.
This had the additional benefit that i'm able to hardcast Pharaoh as an alternative win condition.
First testings feels smooth.
Maybe Terminate is better for Tas and Angler, but i'm comfortable with the Golgari Brownscale and Vengeful Pharao gameplan against Grixis Twin / Delver.
Think that dropping Ray of Revelation is right ATM.
The reason is that Grixis recently starts to board Leyline of the Void, which
negates the flashback. This circumstance leaves us with the problem of boarding right.
Destructive Revelry will replace it.
The upside is that it hits artifacts and enchantments, so whatever my opp is doin' i'm well
prepared.
It's a decent addition to fight Aggro Decks with a non-all-in gameplan,
like Zoo, Stompy, Vampire / Zombies / Dredgevine - Decks, Elves, Goblins
and attacking Abzan Company from a different angle.
A few thoughts on some of the cards being thrown around here:
-I've been very unimpressed with Golgari Brownscale. I run one of the most looting-heavy lists out there, but I still found it insufficient against burn, since dredging it infringes on your chances of finding real answers. I think Dragon's Claw is a much more potent sideboard option.
-Conflagrate has gone in and out of the maindeck. It can help in terms of threat versatility, but that's not really a problem now that Vortex is around, and it's usually just worse than Flame Jab. I don't know if it will be making any more appearances in my 75.
-Scavenging Ooze really underwhelmed me. In such a creature-light and red-heavy deck, it often just ended up being a Grizzly Bears that my opponent could answer at any time. Grim Lavamancer has been a much more valuable threat, and there really is no substitute for Tarmogoyf.
-This is the wrong deck for Evolutionary Leap. That card is far too reactive in a deck that needs to be focused on dealing with early threats and assembling its engine, which isn't focused on creatures. Now, if you wanted to talk about a shell with stuff like Greater Gargadon, Khalni Garden, and Golgari Thug, we might have something on our hands ;).
-I've had success with Vengeful Pharaoh in the Jund version of this deck. With enough dredge and/or looting triggers, I could see this being viable as a 1-of in a straight R/G variant. High toughness creatures can be problematic for this kind of deck, and getting a virtually free No Mercy is a big way to answer those kinds of problems without spending big chunks of time and effort on them.
I tested vs Burn about an hour long and it was too clunky.
It nets me between 2 - 6 life, but Burn just goes ahead with dealing 25+ damage till T4 or 5.
Ooze too felt clunky and unnecessary. It's just winning games that had been already won O.o
Burn and natural tron into karn are our 2 toughest match ups most likely. Against burn we usually have to fetch and shock and there isn't a lot we can about damage being thrown at our face. Tron is only hard when we can't hit their land early and they natural tron into karn or wurmcoils as those are threats we can't easily dispatch. Otherwise there aren't a whole lot of match ups that we can't beat as long as we can play around any kind of yard hate.
4x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
9x Mountain
1x Raging Ravine
2x Rootbound Crag
2x Stomping Ground
1x Treetop Village
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Kird Ape
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Faithless Looting
2x Flame Jab
4x Life from the Loam
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Manamorphose
3x Seismic Assault
Manamorphose is here mostly to help with color fixing, be a draw to turn into dredge and maybe make and elemental from Young Pyromancer. I'm looking into swapping them out for the new Magmatic Insight since the card draw can help dig into my colors. I do intend on getting more Stomping Grounds and Wooded Foothills in the future. I was thinking of eventually getting rid of my Flinthoof Boars for more Scavenging Oozees and maybe Grim Lavamancer; he seems like a neat fit. I'm not sure yet. I have very little opportunity to test, but I like the Boar's haste option.... I'm just not sure if he's good. He feels like a nice paralelle to Kird Ape.
I wanted to share my slow-and-steady progress and get some critique. Thank you all in advanced
Ok, i get your point.
Pithing Needle seems clunky IMO.
That's the reason i board in Ancient Grudge and Dakmor Salvage to fight Relic of Progenitus.
Both Cards synergise much better with my whole Gameplan. The time my opponent look at Grudge in my hand or grave will be the time
when he has to crack Relic. In testings i was able to recover pretty quickly from relic activations with this plan.
Scavenging Ooze is a tough one, but can be handled with Vortex, Assault, Conflagrate and even Flame Jab.
Again, i try to maximize the Synergy between Maindeck and Sideboard.
Rest in Peace is really hard to deal with.
Even Ray of Revelation is mediocre here.
Other (not very popular) hate would be
which are all beating our deck to death.
Another question:
has anyone tried a U Splash for Desperate Ravings?
Tormenting Voice in my grave feels like a wasted card.
Green @ it's best
You are probably correct about needle being clunky, but at the same time it can stop a karn which can definitely be a tough obstacle for the deck if your meta has a lot of tron that is still running karn over ugin.
@Trifling - boar is probably much better than ape. It having 3 power and toughness (essentially likely) is relevant against zoo if you have zoo in your meta, the fact it can come off the top and get haste is pretty nice. Ape is fine when you don't have other options, but probably not better than ooze, which gets huge as you clean a board up with assault or vortex, etc. I would switch ape for more ooze and perhaps a ghor-clan rampager or 2 where you have room. It can give your deck a more aggressive zoo feel to it and make it less yard reliant. Also makes combat a nightmare for your opponent. If you have 1 card in hand and you attack, your opponent has to guess whether it's 2 damage to kill their creature with an assault activation or 4 additional power, plus trample from blood rush.
Oh! I didn't think of Ghor-Clan Rampager. Funny enough when I first set out to build this I was thinking of running Wild Hunger for a similar effect, thought the Rampager is better since they won't see it coming, can't be countered in the conventional way, and could be a dude on the field if I really need one. I will experiment with that. Thank you!
Thoughts: Since I am running Young Pyromancer I am hesitant to replace Flame Jab with Molten Vortex. At least at the moment that seems like the logical thing to move out to try the new diet Assault. Maybe one of each? I think this is more a matter of what works best for me, but I figured I would put it out there.
I played last night at a LGS, turnout for the tournament was too low, but I got some games in with my Naya Aggro Loam:
2 Clifftop Retreat
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Plains
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Sacred Foundry
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits
3 Stomping Ground
3 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
1 Commune with the Gods
3 Dromoka's Command
2 Evolutionary Leap
3 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Molten Vortex
1 Rancor
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Managorger Hydra
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 River Boa
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Rending Volley
3 Molten Rain
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Rule of Law
3 Destructive Revelry
Against Mono-U Tron:
Game 1
I start pretty fast with a Nacatl and Vortex, but no Pridemages. She gets natural Tron on turn 3 into Wurmcoil and though I eventually kill it and the lifelink token, I can't quite push through the damage to finish her and lost game 1.
SB: +3 Destructive Revelry, +3 Molten Rain, -1 Treetop, -3 Dromoka's Command, -2 Lightning Helix
Game 2
I have Nacatl, turn 2 Commune finds Vortex, turn 3 Molten Rain sets her back a little and Nacatl + the Vortex/Loam engine do most of the heavy lifting.
Game 3
I don't have Turn 1 Nacatl, but do have pretty decent removal. I have a Revelry and other answers for the turn 3 Wurmcoil but can't get any big monsters to resolve through the counter wall and eventually get buried by recurring Wurmcoils.
Other games
I played a fair number of less formal games against RWU non-Twin control. Impressions from those games were Vortex is very threatening; I'm a big fan. Evolutionary Leap had its moments, but I felt threat light at times and I will probably cut at least one of the two. I will probably pick up a Ghor-Clan Rampager to go in the Rancor slot; and I am still working on the threat suite. Games I opened with Nacatl against control I won a lot of, and Pridemage is very impressive. I need to fill out the 1-2cc threat spot with one more high quality threat of some kind.
Fixed it.
They are loose.
River Boa is surely a stand-in until I find something better; Scavenging Ooze is the card I would put in today.
Managorger Hydra is tougher to evaluate because it dies as soon as it resolves almost all of the time. On one hand, that is a powerful argument in favor of it, on the other it dies to every removal spell that does more than one damage and costs 3 mana so the removal is cheaper a lot of the time and it is difficult to resolve. If it sticks for more than a turn or two it is a very powerful threat.
Evolutionary Leap used for value not as part of a combo is probably better in some kind of Jund deck that is trying to win by grinding out the game. I really like it; it is really powerful and causes significant problems for the opponent. It is a hell of an advantage in games we're playing "fair Magic", but in this environment of combo kills it might be better coming out of the Board for grindy matchups. I am probably going to remove one and try Garruk Wildspeaker in its place.
I'm going to try Ghor-Clan Ravager in place of Rancor too.
Please bear in mind, I view long term decks like this one as a continuous evolution. I enjoy trying different combinations and only tend to lock into a list for big events.
It is easy to picture looking at your hand, having Leap and no creatures and really wishing it was any castable creature. At the same time, if the opponent hasn't seen your hand and you're sitting on more than a card or two, casting it is extremely threatening. Anyone expecting to play fair Magic will very likely put a high priority on countering it; basically if it resolves against a blue deck, it is very likely they couldn't counter it. The combo decks don't care in the slightest about it, which is another argument for the sideboard.
I think in my current deck its probably not good enough, but I will be brewing with it for a long time to come. If, for example, I were to incorporate Polymorph's Hellspark Elemental as a two drop, its utility would go up significantly. Once it is in play, the effect is amazing.
still testing aroung with my RG Build.
When i read the last pages of this thread i get the feeling that Black gives the deck
much more impact.
I'll try a B splash for Darkblast and being able to hardcast Bloodghast
and Vengeful Pharaoh.
I'd happy for any tips on this idea, maybe any Card-suggestions that fit into a tiny B Splash.
Another consideration is the cut of Golgari Brownscale.
This dude has 2 downsides:
1st:
GG1 casting cost. fetch into a Stomping Ground, hardcast him and after that he just doesn't die.
That negates his 2life per turn effect.
2nd:
When i want to discard him turn after turn i need a discard outlet. Tormenting Voice
or Conflagrate are ok but just ok. It's very slow at all.
What is your plan vs Burn and Delver?
Do we have a lifegain plan that works as a grave-filler too?
Green @ it's best
Black adds a lot of possibilities of course, hand destruction, removal like Abrupt Decay and card draw like Dark Confidant.
With regard to Brownscale, I tend to agree looping him isn't the strongest effect, though with all of your looting you get a lot out of him.
Against Burn, I am splashing White, so I have better options. Maindeck Lightning Helix and Dromoka's Command give my deck some game against burn; straight RG or RGB is probably going to have to rely on either winning both post-board games or a green spell of some kind.
Against Delver, plan A is to throw land or bolts at the delvers. My deck has more issues with Anglers and Tasigur's than Delvers themselves because I'm not playing Path.
alright.
I switched some stuff:
In 2x Abrupt Decay, 2x Fire-lit thicket, 1 Tomb and 1 Blood Crypt
Out 2 Mountain, 1 Jab, 2 of 4 Stomping Ground and the single Ray.
This had the additional benefit that i'm able to hardcast Pharaoh as an alternative win condition.
First testings feels smooth.
Maybe Terminate is better for Tas and Angler, but i'm comfortable with the
Golgari Brownscale and Vengeful Pharao gameplan against Grixis Twin / Delver.
exchanged my 3 Copperline Gorge for 3 Rootbound Crag.
They almost always come untapped into Game.
Think that dropping Ray of Revelation is right ATM.
The reason is that Grixis recently starts to board Leyline of the Void, which
negates the flashback. This circumstance leaves us with the problem of boarding right.
Destructive Revelry will replace it.
The upside is that it hits artifacts and enchantments, so whatever my opp is doin' i'm well
prepared.
Green @ it's best
It's a decent addition to fight Aggro Decks with a non-all-in gameplan,
like Zoo, Stompy, Vampire / Zombies / Dredgevine - Decks, Elves, Goblins
and attacking Abzan Company from a different angle.
Grisshoalbrand gets hurt too by this.
Green @ it's best
-I've been very unimpressed with Golgari Brownscale. I run one of the most looting-heavy lists out there, but I still found it insufficient against burn, since dredging it infringes on your chances of finding real answers. I think Dragon's Claw is a much more potent sideboard option.
-Conflagrate has gone in and out of the maindeck. It can help in terms of threat versatility, but that's not really a problem now that Vortex is around, and it's usually just worse than Flame Jab. I don't know if it will be making any more appearances in my 75.
-Scavenging Ooze really underwhelmed me. In such a creature-light and red-heavy deck, it often just ended up being a Grizzly Bears that my opponent could answer at any time. Grim Lavamancer has been a much more valuable threat, and there really is no substitute for Tarmogoyf.
-This is the wrong deck for Evolutionary Leap. That card is far too reactive in a deck that needs to be focused on dealing with early threats and assembling its engine, which isn't focused on creatures. Now, if you wanted to talk about a shell with stuff like Greater Gargadon, Khalni Garden, and Golgari Thug, we might have something on our hands ;).
-I've had success with Vengeful Pharaoh in the Jund version of this deck. With enough dredge and/or looting triggers, I could see this being viable as a 1-of in a straight R/G variant. High toughness creatures can be problematic for this kind of deck, and getting a virtually free No Mercy is a big way to answer those kinds of problems without spending big chunks of time and effort on them.
Cubetutor Link
I tested vs Burn about an hour long and it was too clunky.
It nets me between 2 - 6 life, but Burn just goes ahead with dealing 25+ damage till T4 or 5.
Ooze too felt clunky and unnecessary. It's just winning games that had been already won O.o
Conflagrate felt like a worse Pyroclasm at least.
Green @ it's best
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