Bolt is good I've just never liked the bolt, I feel like flamewake gets us more value. Terminate in this deck is worse than murderous cut in my opinion.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
Hey there! The reason I don't personally play either one is because I only have red splashed for faithless looting around a primarily BUG setup. I would say that they would be better in a jund shell, but I haven't tried jundvine, and based off of the list Oliver Coffey used for a 1st place finish at the SCG invitational qualifier, he doesn't either.
Hey thanks for taking the time, very much appreciated. Ill check out that list and tinker around with it. Ive been wanting to try out a deck with vengevine, as im burning out with playing zoo as of late.. what decks do we have trouble against? My lgs is mostly fish, tron, grixis ctrl and twin variants. (And burn of course) any advice?
I've never had an issue with murderous cut exiling my own creatures. Usually grave troll Will dredge enough stuff you can't use to fuel it, and it works well against decks with scavenging ooze to keep your graveyard empty temporarily.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
And to be honest I haven't had a lot of success with it: went 2-2, 2-1 (including a bye) and 1-3 in those three events. I feel like it's partly the deck and partly my own lack of skill at the game at fault here, so I'd like to improve before my next event tomorrow.
* The biggest problem with the deck I've had so far is a lack of redundancy in its enablers - I've only got 4 Lotleth Troll and no sidegrades to it, so I get Vengevines and GGTs stuck in my hand with no way to bin them; and only 4 GGT so in some games I just don't hit the dredge cards I need to start filling up my graveyard and the deck's gameplan just goes nowhere. To try to combat this issue, I'm thinking of cutting 4x Birds of Paradise and 1x Gnaw to the Bone from the mainboard (with the latter being relegated to the sideboard) and replacing them with 2x Stinkweed Imp and 3x Satyr Wayfinder, though Magus of the Bazaar also seems like it'd be great as a sidegrade for Jace as well. How much do I stand to lose by cutting BoP? He can enable a T2 Vengevine swing with Troll and Gravecrawler, but he doesn't have any direct synergy with the graveyard plan of the deck and I feel like we can't afford to run too many non-synergistic cards in the deck.
* What can I do to improve my burn and infect matchups (or just aggro in general, less so Affinity though)? Whenever I get matched up against one of those decks I always lose 0-2, or 1-2 if I'm lucky.
* I'd like to overhaul my sideboard, as the current list is a holdover from when I was running Jund, so I haven't taken advantage of blue in the SB yet. Should I be looking at Spellskite? Is Fatestitcher more of a sideboard card than a mainboard card?
* Any general tips for piloting the deck?
* Is there any space to include 4x Bloodghast in the BUG version, or is he more of a Jund card?
When I'm not on my mobile I'll try and get a list posted. I run 4 magus and I'm rarely displeased to see one in opening or T2-3 draw. I don't run anglers, stitcher or birds either (been contemplating birds though) and I also run x4 ghast. I personally love gnaw as gaining 20-30 life can really help if things get a bit grindy (meta call as mine is fish/affinity/burn heavy ymmv) and am considering trying to make room for a 2nd main. I think I'm going to try without ghasts and use bop over them and see how that goes.
And to be honest I haven't had a lot of success with it: went 2-2, 2-1 (including a bye) and 1-3 in those three events. I feel like it's partly the deck and partly my own lack of skill at the game at fault here, so I'd like to improve before my next event tomorrow.
* The biggest problem with the deck I've had so far is a lack of redundancy in its enablers - I've only got 4 Lotleth Troll and no sidegrades to it, so I get Vengevines and GGTs stuck in my hand with no way to bin them; and only 4 GGT so in some games I just don't hit the dredge cards I need to start filling up my graveyard and the deck's gameplan just goes nowhere. To try to combat this issue, I'm thinking of cutting 4x Birds of Paradise and 1x Gnaw to the Bone from the mainboard (with the latter being relegated to the sideboard) and replacing them with 2x Stinkweed Imp and 3x Satyr Wayfinder, though Magus of the Bazaar also seems like it'd be great as a sidegrade for Jace as well. How much do I stand to lose by cutting BoP? He can enable a T2 Vengevine swing with Troll and Gravecrawler, but he doesn't have any direct synergy with the graveyard plan of the deck and I feel like we can't afford to run too many non-synergistic cards in the deck.
* What can I do to improve my burn and infect matchups (or just aggro in general, less so Affinity though)? Whenever I get matched up against one of those decks I always lose 0-2, or 1-2 if I'm lucky.
* I'd like to overhaul my sideboard, as the current list is a holdover from when I was running Jund, so I haven't taken advantage of blue in the SB yet. Should I be looking at Spellskite? Is Fatestitcher more of a sideboard card than a mainboard card?
* Any general tips for piloting the deck?
* Is there any space to include 4x Bloodghast in the BUG version, or is he more of a Jund card?
Thanks in advance
I agree that having a number of discard outlets is pretty big, although Jace should help, in part, with that. I think this is something Rotting Rats also gives you that Fatesticher doesn't, although the stitcher is also very useful at getting out of other engine stalls. I would say guess that while Birds of Paradise does help you with T2 VV, it's can be a fairly dead draw past that. Satyr Wayfinder fills a similar role of keeping the mana flowing, while also progressing your game plan. I am also always happy to chump with it very early on against fast decks, then delve it away for a road-block (ie Gurmag Angler). Gnaw to the Bone I think it too relevant is enough matchups to cut MD. If you need something else to cut, maybe the Scavenging Ooze, since it doesn't advance your game plan directly and dies to a lot of common removal. But I haven't played with it, so I can't speak to how effect it is.
If you are finding Burn to be a hard matchup, one thing you could do is swap your Thoughtseize for Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek. Against infect, I find that siding in most of your removal is the best you can do.
As a side note, I feel like the U dredgevine decks would really benefit form running Life from the Loam. It works well with both the Hedron Crab (more lands) and Jace (dredge, pitch a land, recast loam). Then, once Loam and Crab are working together, I think Bloodghast's value probably increases a bit more than in the Jund Version. Plus, you can easily use Ghost Quarter if the matchups you want it in. Has anyone tried this out?
For general tips, I find it is important to determine what your role is in each matchup. The deck plays very differently when you are going all-in on the combo or playing a semi-disruptive grindy game. And if you are trying to race a deck that is just way faster than you or durdling around when a deck has a better late game, you could just lose games not close.
I just got to looking around at the panoma's mtgo PTQ T8 deck.
I REALLY like the idea of Sultai Charm in this deck. The first two modes basically do the same thing that Abrupt Decay does for us, as well as being an additional dredge enabler/discard card. Also, Stubborn Denial seems like nice protection against some of our worst matchups where we rely on hand disruption a lot. Also, no Jace is interesting, and is probably less good if you are opting for a low dredge emphasis. But, it seems like it would be really good in that deck, given the number of 1/2-of instants and sorceries in the SB. How have people found Jace in testing?
its a 2 2 for one that requires you to eat creatures.. seems unplayable. not really a build around? sultai charm is okay just not amazing. certainly one would be the max there
Round 1: 2-0 against BW Warrior aggro deck, mostly from Khans block. Nothing noteworthy to write about
Round 2: 2-1 against RW Aggro / Burn. Lost game 1 and sideboarded in 2x Gnaw to the Bone for lifegain and 1x Gurmag Angler to slow down his aggro strategy, taking out 1x Life from the Loam, 1x Jace Vryn's Prodigy, and 1x Satyr Wayfinder. Games 2 and 3 were basically won when I resolved Gnaw multiple times and gained 40+ life in two turns
Round 3: 0-2 against Junk Melira CoCo Combo. Lost game 1 to EoT Chord for Melira followed by Murderous Redcap after dredging well but not having answers for his combo. Sideboarded in 3x Thoughtseize and 2x Darkblast, taking out 2x Jace Vryn's Prodigy, 1x Skaab Ruinator, 1x Life from the Loam, and 1x Satyr Wayfinder. Lost game 2 to the same combo but kept a hand with Abrupt Decay and slowed him down - maybe if I'd hit Darkblast with my dredging I'd have won the game but it's hard to say
Round 4: 2-1 against Jund. Lost game 1 to Tarmogoyf after dredging consistently but not having any zombies to reanimate Vengevines with, and only dredged into Fatestitcher in the last turn of the game. He hadn't taken any damage from his manabase up until that point so a 17 life point swing wasn't enough to salvage the game. Sideboarded in 2x Gnaw to the Bone and 1x Gurmag Angler, taking out 1x Jace Vryn's Prodigy, 1x Life from the Loam and 1x Satyr Wayfinder. Grinded out the second game in topdeck mode by playing Grave-Troll's at 7/7 for multiple turns to become the aggressor after my opponent had been taking chunks out of my life total with Tarmogoyf for the first turns of the game. Eventually drew into a Hedron Crab and cast it + Stinkweed Imp from my hand to reanimate Vengevines for the win.
Overall I'm extremely positive about taking BoP out of the deck and replacing it with 2x Stinkweed Imp and 2x Satyr Wayfinder. Wayfinder smooths out the mana of the deck much more nicely than BoP does IMO and also lets you hit dredgers and start the graveyard engine earlier in the game. Also having 7 dredge cards in the deck is extremely nice - before, I'd have a lot of games where I had most of the pieces to start dredging except for an actual GGT, so including 2 Imps solves that problem nicely for me. Also it's a great creature to just cast in a grindy matchup like Jund, because when it dies you can just dredge it back and recast it, taking away their ability to go 1-for-1 with removal.
I'm a huge fan of Jace in this deck - he's a bit slow to get started but the real advantage for me is being able to flashback Abrupt Decay. In this deck if we don't get removal in the opening hand, it's unlikely that we'll ever be able to cast any because dredging in the early game is so important. Jace neatly solves the problem by both enabling us to dredge early, then flipping and slowing down our opponent until we need to make use of his minus ability. It's also great for flashing back Grisly Salvage for more card selection and more cards in the graveyard. I might try out 2x Magus alongside the 3x Jace as well at some point, seems like it'd be good
Also Fatestitcher is the card I underrated the most in this deck - will definitely be trying out a 2nd copy in place of Life from the Loam as soon as possible. Being able to dredge fearlessly without having a zombie on board and still having the ability to reanimate Vengevines is absolutely huge IMO
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
Essence Warden is huge against Delver I find. I'm going to play around with the numbers a bit, as the last few games have had Bloodghast do great, and Stinkweed + Lotleth have been awesome.
Yeah I would have to watch the replay to see why I didnt just cast Vengevine, I think I was hoping to just suck out next turn. :]
I for sure should have pulsed that Tidebinder, among several other misplays, but now that we know my opponent had Dismember.../shrug, maybe I just didnt have it that game.
I think the worse play was in the first game, I'm pretty sure I had a chance at a kill on that Master of Waves. Either way, learning happened.
This is where I am right now, as Tron seems to just be unbearable unless I get a hand that allows me to race the Tron/O-Stone/Karn/Mindslaver fun times. Sometimes, I just dont get any kind of dredgeing going on, should I mull harder?
I doubt that you need to change your mull decision making as much as you'd need another dredger to make it more likely that you hit them. I would probably remove the Drakes for either more imps or golgari thugs/grave-trolls.
A question for you though: Why no Gurmag Angler? Jw as I've considered removing mine.
I'm currently playing a 4 color build and I took 4th at a small IQ this weekend with it--I'll post a list later. I removed the blooghasts, but I'm honestly missing them.
Soul Sister's has been an annoyingly hard matchup...anyone else experience this? I'm thinking about adding 2 rain of gore to my sideboard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: Dredgevine UBRG . Affinity 0 . Grixis Control UBR
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
Here's link for list reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91295
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
4x Hedron Crab
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Gravecrawler
3x Gurmag Angler
4x Lotleth Troll
1x Fatestitcher
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Skaab Ruinator
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Vengevine
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Gnaw to the Bone
4x Grisly Salvage
LAND (20)
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Watery Grave
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
1x Forest
3x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
2x Darkblast
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Golgari Charm
3x Murderous Cut
1x Gurmag Angler
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Thoughtseize
And to be honest I haven't had a lot of success with it: went 2-2, 2-1 (including a bye) and 1-3 in those three events. I feel like it's partly the deck and partly my own lack of skill at the game at fault here, so I'd like to improve before my next event tomorrow.
* The biggest problem with the deck I've had so far is a lack of redundancy in its enablers - I've only got 4 Lotleth Troll and no sidegrades to it, so I get Vengevines and GGTs stuck in my hand with no way to bin them; and only 4 GGT so in some games I just don't hit the dredge cards I need to start filling up my graveyard and the deck's gameplan just goes nowhere. To try to combat this issue, I'm thinking of cutting 4x Birds of Paradise and 1x Gnaw to the Bone from the mainboard (with the latter being relegated to the sideboard) and replacing them with 2x Stinkweed Imp and 3x Satyr Wayfinder, though Magus of the Bazaar also seems like it'd be great as a sidegrade for Jace as well. How much do I stand to lose by cutting BoP? He can enable a T2 Vengevine swing with Troll and Gravecrawler, but he doesn't have any direct synergy with the graveyard plan of the deck and I feel like we can't afford to run too many non-synergistic cards in the deck.
* What can I do to improve my burn and infect matchups (or just aggro in general, less so Affinity though)? Whenever I get matched up against one of those decks I always lose 0-2, or 1-2 if I'm lucky.
* I'd like to overhaul my sideboard, as the current list is a holdover from when I was running Jund, so I haven't taken advantage of blue in the SB yet. Should I be looking at Spellskite? Is Fatestitcher more of a sideboard card than a mainboard card?
* Any general tips for piloting the deck?
* Is there any space to include 4x Bloodghast in the BUG version, or is he more of a Jund card?
Thanks in advance
I agree that having a number of discard outlets is pretty big, although Jace should help, in part, with that. I think this is something Rotting Rats also gives you that Fatesticher doesn't, although the stitcher is also very useful at getting out of other engine stalls. I would say guess that while Birds of Paradise does help you with T2 VV, it's can be a fairly dead draw past that. Satyr Wayfinder fills a similar role of keeping the mana flowing, while also progressing your game plan. I am also always happy to chump with it very early on against fast decks, then delve it away for a road-block (ie Gurmag Angler). Gnaw to the Bone I think it too relevant is enough matchups to cut MD. If you need something else to cut, maybe the Scavenging Ooze, since it doesn't advance your game plan directly and dies to a lot of common removal. But I haven't played with it, so I can't speak to how effect it is.
If you are finding Burn to be a hard matchup, one thing you could do is swap your Thoughtseize for Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek. Against infect, I find that siding in most of your removal is the best you can do.
As a side note, I feel like the U dredgevine decks would really benefit form running Life from the Loam. It works well with both the Hedron Crab (more lands) and Jace (dredge, pitch a land, recast loam). Then, once Loam and Crab are working together, I think Bloodghast's value probably increases a bit more than in the Jund Version. Plus, you can easily use Ghost Quarter if the matchups you want it in. Has anyone tried this out?
For general tips, I find it is important to determine what your role is in each matchup. The deck plays very differently when you are going all-in on the combo or playing a semi-disruptive grindy game. And if you are trying to race a deck that is just way faster than you or durdling around when a deck has a better late game, you could just lose games not close.
I just got to looking around at the panoma's mtgo PTQ T8 deck.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Hedron Crab
4 Lotleth Troll
1 Rotting Rats
4 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Skaab Ruinator
2 Stinkweed Imp
4 Vengevine
Instant (11)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Darkblast
4 Grisly Salvage
1 Murderous Cut
1 Sultai Charm
2 Breeding Pool
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Woodland Cemetery
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Duress
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Life from the Loam
1 Memory's Journey
1 Spellskite
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Thoughtseize
I REALLY like the idea of Sultai Charm in this deck. The first two modes basically do the same thing that Abrupt Decay does for us, as well as being an additional dredge enabler/discard card. Also, Stubborn Denial seems like nice protection against some of our worst matchups where we rely on hand disruption a lot. Also, no Jace is interesting, and is probably less good if you are opting for a low dredge emphasis. But, it seems like it would be really good in that deck, given the number of 1/2-of instants and sorceries in the SB. How have people found Jace in testing?
4x Hedron Crab
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
2x Stinkweed Imp
2x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Gravecrawler
3x Gurmag Angler
4x Lotleth Troll
1x Fatestitcher
1x Skaab Ruinator
4x Vengevine
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Grisly Salvage
SORCERY (1)
1x Life from the Loam
LAND (20)
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Watery Grave
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
1x Forest
3x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
2x Darkblast
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Golgari Charm
2x Murderous Cut
1x Gurmag Angler
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Thoughtseize
Round 1: 2-0 against BW Warrior aggro deck, mostly from Khans block. Nothing noteworthy to write about
Round 2: 2-1 against RW Aggro / Burn. Lost game 1 and sideboarded in 2x Gnaw to the Bone for lifegain and 1x Gurmag Angler to slow down his aggro strategy, taking out 1x Life from the Loam, 1x Jace Vryn's Prodigy, and 1x Satyr Wayfinder. Games 2 and 3 were basically won when I resolved Gnaw multiple times and gained 40+ life in two turns
Round 3: 0-2 against Junk Melira CoCo Combo. Lost game 1 to EoT Chord for Melira followed by Murderous Redcap after dredging well but not having answers for his combo. Sideboarded in 3x Thoughtseize and 2x Darkblast, taking out 2x Jace Vryn's Prodigy, 1x Skaab Ruinator, 1x Life from the Loam, and 1x Satyr Wayfinder. Lost game 2 to the same combo but kept a hand with Abrupt Decay and slowed him down - maybe if I'd hit Darkblast with my dredging I'd have won the game but it's hard to say
Round 4: 2-1 against Jund. Lost game 1 to Tarmogoyf after dredging consistently but not having any zombies to reanimate Vengevines with, and only dredged into Fatestitcher in the last turn of the game. He hadn't taken any damage from his manabase up until that point so a 17 life point swing wasn't enough to salvage the game. Sideboarded in 2x Gnaw to the Bone and 1x Gurmag Angler, taking out 1x Jace Vryn's Prodigy, 1x Life from the Loam and 1x Satyr Wayfinder. Grinded out the second game in topdeck mode by playing Grave-Troll's at 7/7 for multiple turns to become the aggressor after my opponent had been taking chunks out of my life total with Tarmogoyf for the first turns of the game. Eventually drew into a Hedron Crab and cast it + Stinkweed Imp from my hand to reanimate Vengevines for the win.
Overall I'm extremely positive about taking BoP out of the deck and replacing it with 2x Stinkweed Imp and 2x Satyr Wayfinder. Wayfinder smooths out the mana of the deck much more nicely than BoP does IMO and also lets you hit dredgers and start the graveyard engine earlier in the game. Also having 7 dredge cards in the deck is extremely nice - before, I'd have a lot of games where I had most of the pieces to start dredging except for an actual GGT, so including 2 Imps solves that problem nicely for me. Also it's a great creature to just cast in a grindy matchup like Jund, because when it dies you can just dredge it back and recast it, taking away their ability to go 1-for-1 with removal.
I'm a huge fan of Jace in this deck - he's a bit slow to get started but the real advantage for me is being able to flashback Abrupt Decay. In this deck if we don't get removal in the opening hand, it's unlikely that we'll ever be able to cast any because dredging in the early game is so important. Jace neatly solves the problem by both enabling us to dredge early, then flipping and slowing down our opponent until we need to make use of his minus ability. It's also great for flashing back Grisly Salvage for more card selection and more cards in the graveyard. I might try out 2x Magus alongside the 3x Jace as well at some point, seems like it'd be good
Also Fatestitcher is the card I underrated the most in this deck - will definitely be trying out a 2nd copy in place of Life from the Loam as soon as possible. Being able to dredge fearlessly without having a zombie on board and still having the ability to reanimate Vengevines is absolutely huge IMO
I've been playing this online, any immediate corrections before I get the rest of it in paper?
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Forest
//Spells
2 Terminate
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Faithless Looting
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Essence Warden
2 Bloodghast
2 Stinkweed Imp
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Uktabi Drake
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vengevine
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Essence Warden
2 Spellskite
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tormod's Crypt
Spirits
Spirits
Spirits
You're famous!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3rt8T6OrvM
Edit: Yeah I was just needing ANY kill for that Tidebinder in the second game and if I remember, I never got it.
Spirits
+ 1 Darkblast, -1 Tasigur (Main deck adjustments)
+ 1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Destructive Revelry (swaps between side/main)
+ 3 Crumble to Dust Side
+ 2 Bloodghast, -2 Uktabi Drake Main
I think thats about it, but MTGO's on my other PC...
Spirits
I for sure should have pulsed that Tidebinder, among several other misplays, but now that we know my opponent had Dismember.../shrug, maybe I just didnt have it that game.
I think the worse play was in the first game, I'm pretty sure I had a chance at a kill on that Master of Waves. Either way, learning happened.
This is where I am right now, as Tron seems to just be unbearable unless I get a hand that allows me to race the Tron/O-Stone/Karn/Mindslaver fun times. Sometimes, I just dont get any kind of dredgeing going on, should I mull harder?
2 Swamp
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Forest
//Creatures
4 Gravecrawler
4 Vengevine
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Bloodghast
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Essence Warden
2 Stinkweed Imp
2 Uktabi Drake
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
2 Darkblast
//Dump
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Faithless Looting
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Crumble to Dust
1 Terminate
2 Essence Warden
2 Spellskite
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Duress
1 Destructive Revelry
Spirits
A question for you though: Why no Gurmag Angler? Jw as I've considered removing mine.
I'm currently playing a 4 color build and I took 4th at a small IQ this weekend with it--I'll post a list later. I removed the blooghasts, but I'm honestly missing them.
Soul Sister's has been an annoyingly hard matchup...anyone else experience this? I'm thinking about adding 2 rain of gore to my sideboard.