One card I've been testing of is Become Immense as a singleton. The look on someone's face when you put it on an unblocked creature or a Lotleth Troll is hilarious! I recommend someone give it a try. I run 1 MB and it does work!
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@creamy99 I'm running a really aggressive Jund list and I've been considering Become Immense for some time now. I think I'll try it out. I'm running 2 Hooting Mandrills as well so there's some additional synergy.
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Modern: Bant Company GWU Dredgevine GBR Affinity 0 Grixis Control UBR
As of late in my two flex spots, I tried Ghor Clan Rampager and Become Immense. Rampager is better for pushing damage through blocking creatures, but we have so many recurring threats that I didn't see a need for it. Plus, Immense is better with evasive creatures with either flying (Imp), trample (troll), or unblocked creatures. I only run 1 right now because it's an awesome combat trick, but with 4 Gurmags, I don't want to delve away important cards
As of late in my two flex spots, I tried Ghor Clan Rampager and Become Immense. Rampager is better for pushing through blocking creatures, but we have so many recurring threats that I didn't see a need for it.
This tends to be my thought. I've goin that in grindy games with stalled board states that we can usually trade with whatever chumps us then recur everything we've lost on our second main phase and be ready to swing again at full strength on our next turn. Trample is great but not a lot of decks are running creatures they can trade off with our vengevines and gravecrawlers without gradually losing board control.
Is there any consensus on how many fastlands to play in a "standard" (the card choices, that is. Not the format) jund coloured deck playing 20 lands? I also see a lot of jund pilots playing noticably more Copperline Gorges than Blackcleave Cliffs. How's that? Seems to me that early Gravecrawlers and hardcasted Bloodghasts and Gurmag Anglers are at least as important as Satyr Wayfinders...
I run 5 fastlands. 3 Cliffs and 2 Gorge. I've played this way for the two years I've been piloting the deck and haven't switched it once.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
I'm running one copper line gorge over black leave cliffs because my most explosive openings require T1 BoP and it's nice to save 2 life on that turn. If I don't get that T1 BoP the value of the GR colour combo goes down quite a bit, while any black mana I realistically always want coming into play untapped. That's my rationale anyway, and while cliffs would be nice I'm not comfortable running more than a couple lands that could enter tapped anyway.
Ergo, copper line gorge for the "nice to have T1" colours, shocks for the "need to have T2 onwards" colours
Hi guys, new to this thread been interested in trying out a dredgevine deck.
One thing I'm really curious about is the necessity of faithless looting. I've seen lots of lists where faithless looting is the only red card in the deck and I wonder if that's worth adding the third color to the deck and taking all the extra damage from fetch and shocklands. Has anyone tried straight Black/Green with utility lands and some more salvages or mulches instead of the faithless lootings? Or has an explanation about why the deck can't function without it. Thanks.
One thing I'm really curious about is the necessity of faithless looting. I've seen lots of lists where faithless looting is the only red card in the deck and I wonder if that's worth adding the third color to the deck and taking all the extra damage from fetch and shocklands. Has anyone tried straight Black/Green with utility lands and some more salvages or mulches instead of the faithless lootings? Or has an explanation about why the deck can't function without it. Thanks.
The other experienced players will all agree with me when I say this. Faithless Looting is the reason to play Jund. It makes the entire deck work and it's always a keep with a Looting in hand. Dig 2, discard stuff to graveyard, flashback and repeat. If you don't run this card, you will be too slow to compete with other combo decks. Even if you play the BUG version, I'd still splash red just to play this card (It's that good!)
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I agree completely. Turn 1 Faithless Looting is the strongest play in the deck. The flashback is highly relevant as well in certain matchups. Paying the extra life for red is totally worth it. Splashing red also allows for powerful sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge, Rending Volley, and Rakdos Charm. Red also gives access to Lightning Bolt and Tymaret, The Murder King which I see as a one of in lists regularly. I would only do straight B/G for budget reasons, not competitive reasons.
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Modern: Bant Company GWU Dredgevine GBR Affinity 0 Grixis Control UBR
Thanks for that. I did realize faithless looting is the only other way to discard cards from your hand besides lotleth troll.
I've noticed everyone seems to have a slightly different take on the deck. Some recent lists here don't even have any dredgers. Seen some discussions on the inclusion of Flamewake Phoenix. I personally didn't include Bloodghasts in my initial builds as I felt like he was too low impact being a 2/1 and his landfall ability doesn't help Vengevine. How many cheap creatures is the minimum to make Vengevine a worthwhile card. How many removal spells to include.
Just some of my questions and thoughts on the deck thus far, feel free to share any opinions.
How often is dropping Gravecrawler turn 1 the right call? How often do you hold it up to help trigger Vengevine that could theoretically enter the graveyard over the next several turns?
Depends on what the rest of your hand looks like, but generally you don't want to be putting no board presence on T1 and T2, so if you had a T2 grisly salvage or way finder, T1 gravecrawler is probably correct and then cast 2 creatures on T3. If you've got no vengevines to get into play and you're worried about saving your one drop to play T3 to "help trigger vengevines that could theoretically enter play" I have to think this is a hand you should have mulliganed. Ideally you've got a graveyard enabler and at least two other creatures minimum in your starting hand, and finding a third creature so you can cast 2 on your T3 to trigger venges you might have found T2 should be pretty easy. Sometimes you don't find those vines and you win by massive lotleth trolls and swarmed crawlers, or an early angler. I think T1 crawler is almost always preferable to doing nothing though
I've noticed everyone seems to have a slightly different take on the deck. Some recent lists here don't even have any dredgers. Seen some discussions on the inclusion of Flamewake Phoenix. I personally didn't include Bloodghasts in my initial builds as I felt like he was too low impact being a 2/1 and his landfall ability doesn't help Vengevine. How many cheap creatures is the minimum to make Vengevine a worthwhile card. How many removal spells to include.
I used to think the same thing about Bloodghast, but then I bought my fetchlands and saw the difference.
I can't tell you have many times I've cast Looting, discarded 2 bloodghast turn 1. Turn 2, play a fetch and get them back. Turn 3 swing, get 1 or both killed, then crack the fetch and get them all back again to attack on T4. It runs your opponents out of resources so fast. A 2/1 might not seem like much normally, but it keeps coming back. Then, as soon as you know it, 2 2/1 creatures have swung in twice and your opponenet is at 12, not counting any damage they've taken from their own lands. Then, you get back a Vengevine or two and swing for lethal.
The haste is also very relevant. At least once a match, I go from having no board to playing a land and getting back Bloodghasts, play a zombie and cast a gravecrawler from the yard, get back Vengevine with haste and swing for 12 in the same turn.
As far as little creatures, I have playsets of Lotleth Troll, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Gurmag Angler (7 drop that almost always delves for 1, so I count him as a 1 drop), and then continuously changing numbers of Satyr Wayfinder. That's roughly 19-20 small creatures, plus my dredgers to fill the yard. I fluctuate around the 27 creature mark. Removal is minimal. We are a combo deck and don't want too many outside spells. Scapeshift wins without interacting with the opponent, so the less the better. I currently have a Darkblast (which is usually just another dredge card), 3 Abrupt Decay, and a Murderous Cut in my paper version.
How often is dropping Gravecrawler turn 1 the right call? How often do you hold it up to help trigger Vengevine that could theoretically enter the graveyard over the next several turns?
Pressuring the opponent is never a bad call. That 2/1 Gravecrawler usually punches in for 2-4 damage before it gets killed, which is 10-20% of their life total while you're filling up your yard and developing your board state. I always keep a turn 1 play (crawler or looting). When they waste a creature or spell to kill the crawler, I usually have a second zombie (Troll or Angler) to recur the gravecrawler the following turn and keep chipping away at their life total.
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Would you ever exile a Gravecrawler with a Gurmag Angler to get the Angler into play a turn earlier or usually better to wait?
That's a very situational call. If you had a Vengevine in your yard, no. Wait another turn and then cast the Gravecrawler to get the Vine out too. I almost never want to exile a Crawler from my yard unless say I'm going to lose to a Tasigur and I have to cast Murderous Cut to kill it.
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Is splashing blue a possibility here? Izzet Charm intrigues me only because I never feel like my deck has enough discard outlets. Seems like most lists only run 8x (trolls, looting) and I'm often stuck with vines in my hand, and nothing but salvages and Wayfinders to enable, which obviously aren't helping. For reference, my test list is pretty stock:
But what I've been toying with looks more like this - haven't got numbers to where I'd call comfortable yet, but I think it's worth some consideration.
Is splashing blue a possibility here? Izzet Charm intrigues me only because I never feel like my deck has enough discard outlets. Seems like most lists only run 8x (trolls, looting) and I'm often stuck with vines in my hand, and nothing but salvages and Wayfinders to enable, which obviously aren't helping. For reference, my test list is pretty stock:
But what I've been toying with looks more like this - haven't got numbers to where I'd call comfortable yet, but I think it's worth some consideration.
Btw, Grixis builds don't include green. Snapcaster Mage is not what this deck wants to be doing. Either let the spell have flashback or save your mana for something else!
I'm going to assume you meant to call the second deck a 4c build. Some recommendations for the second list include dumping Terminate, Go for the Throat, Gitaxian Probe, and Lightning Bolt. Change for a singleton Darkblast, Gnaw to the Bone, and some other blue draw spell (Glimpse the Unthinkable probably). Add in a playset of Hedron Crab and 1-2 Skaab Ruinator and you might have a competitive 4c build. Obviously, without testing, I can't say for sure, but these are the blue cards in the past that have posted results.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
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BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
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This tends to be my thought. I've goin that in grindy games with stalled board states that we can usually trade with whatever chumps us then recur everything we've lost on our second main phase and be ready to swing again at full strength on our next turn. Trample is great but not a lot of decks are running creatures they can trade off with our vengevines and gravecrawlers without gradually losing board control.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
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Ergo, copper line gorge for the "nice to have T1" colours, shocks for the "need to have T2 onwards" colours
One thing I'm really curious about is the necessity of faithless looting. I've seen lots of lists where faithless looting is the only red card in the deck and I wonder if that's worth adding the third color to the deck and taking all the extra damage from fetch and shocklands. Has anyone tried straight Black/Green with utility lands and some more salvages or mulches instead of the faithless lootings? Or has an explanation about why the deck can't function without it. Thanks.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
I've noticed everyone seems to have a slightly different take on the deck. Some recent lists here don't even have any dredgers. Seen some discussions on the inclusion of Flamewake Phoenix. I personally didn't include Bloodghasts in my initial builds as I felt like he was too low impact being a 2/1 and his landfall ability doesn't help Vengevine. How many cheap creatures is the minimum to make Vengevine a worthwhile card. How many removal spells to include.
Just some of my questions and thoughts on the deck thus far, feel free to share any opinions.
Draft My Cube!
I can't tell you have many times I've cast Looting, discarded 2 bloodghast turn 1. Turn 2, play a fetch and get them back. Turn 3 swing, get 1 or both killed, then crack the fetch and get them all back again to attack on T4. It runs your opponents out of resources so fast. A 2/1 might not seem like much normally, but it keeps coming back. Then, as soon as you know it, 2 2/1 creatures have swung in twice and your opponenet is at 12, not counting any damage they've taken from their own lands. Then, you get back a Vengevine or two and swing for lethal.
The haste is also very relevant. At least once a match, I go from having no board to playing a land and getting back Bloodghasts, play a zombie and cast a gravecrawler from the yard, get back Vengevine with haste and swing for 12 in the same turn.
As far as little creatures, I have playsets of Lotleth Troll, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Gurmag Angler (7 drop that almost always delves for 1, so I count him as a 1 drop), and then continuously changing numbers of Satyr Wayfinder. That's roughly 19-20 small creatures, plus my dredgers to fill the yard. I fluctuate around the 27 creature mark. Removal is minimal. We are a combo deck and don't want too many outside spells. Scapeshift wins without interacting with the opponent, so the less the better. I currently have a Darkblast (which is usually just another dredge card), 3 Abrupt Decay, and a Murderous Cut in my paper version. Pressuring the opponent is never a bad call. That 2/1 Gravecrawler usually punches in for 2-4 damage before it gets killed, which is 10-20% of their life total while you're filling up your yard and developing your board state. I always keep a turn 1 play (crawler or looting). When they waste a creature or spell to kill the crawler, I usually have a second zombie (Troll or Angler) to recur the gravecrawler the following turn and keep chipping away at their life total.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vengevine
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Vexing Devil
3 Stinkweed Imp
3 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Grisly Salvage
1 Darkblast
1 Abrupt Decay
Lands (19):
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Copperline gorge
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown tomb
1 Stomping ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
But what I've been toying with looks more like this - haven't got numbers to where I'd call comfortable yet, but I think it's worth some consideration.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vengevine
4 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Golgari Thug
2 Stinkweed Imp
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells (18):
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Grisly Salvage
3 Izzet Charm
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Terminate
1 Go for the Throat
3 Bloodstained mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
Maybe I'm trying to do too much here.. But the charm could give some added utility to the main deck in addition to being a discard outlet.
Draft My Cube!
The lists definitely need work. You're forgetting Hedron Crab and Skaab Ruinator. Other blue spells include Glimpse the Unthinkable, Thought Scour.
Btw, Grixis builds don't include green. Snapcaster Mage is not what this deck wants to be doing. Either let the spell have flashback or save your mana for something else!
I'm going to assume you meant to call the second deck a 4c build. Some recommendations for the second list include dumping Terminate, Go for the Throat, Gitaxian Probe, and Lightning Bolt. Change for a singleton Darkblast, Gnaw to the Bone, and some other blue draw spell (Glimpse the Unthinkable probably). Add in a playset of Hedron Crab and 1-2 Skaab Ruinator and you might have a competitive 4c build. Obviously, without testing, I can't say for sure, but these are the blue cards in the past that have posted results.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!