This is like a mash up of Hatebears and Abzan. I've been toying around with a similar list and think it's a good strategy. Notable Hatebears cards include Hierarch, Voice, Pridemage, Smiter, Liege and Path.
What does everyone think of the haterhino list? I wasn't able to see any games so far but I did see the list and it looks interesting.
I don't see Jacob's list as a hatebears/junk hybrid at all. It looks entirely Junk to me.
It's definitely more of a Junk Midrange deck than a Hatebears deck, along the lines of what I've been running since the last ba announcement. I think the lack of search hate package is what keeps it from being Hatebears, despite otherwise sharing many cards in common with Hatebears. I do love the list though, although I think 8 mana dorks is a lot (I do understand that 3x Gavony Township makes the dorks a lot better).
People are calling it Podless Pod, but the deck is like 75% of GW Hatebears runs and the "pod" cards are cards already played in Hatebears (this thread has plenty of GWb Hatebears brewing that make the deck like 90% the same). I'll make the safe assumption and bet I've won by going Hierarch -> Smiter -> two bears -> Wilt-Leaf Liege more than any pod deck. I've already had opponents call my deck "podless pod" because I play Hierarch, Voice, and Finks but Pod didn't have a trademark on those cards.
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Modern: GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy: GWB Maverick
EDH: GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
We have discussed pretty much all of the cards in that Abzan deck. I'm probably going to sleeve it up, and squeeze in Tasigur, the Golden Fang while I'm at it.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Given how good Modern mana is, I'm curious as to what people think of the idea of dropping the anti-shuffle cards, and adding Congregation at Dawn to fetch specific hatebears against unfair decks, and to fetch Restoration Angel and a (splash at a great cost to life total) of Kiki-Jiki against fair decks, with Magus of the Moon as a 1-of hatebear. Chord of Calling might also work in this version.
It might be too ambitious on the manabase, but this would allow playing specific hoser bears (Aegis of the Gods, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Gaddock Teeg, Magus of the Moon) as one-ofs, and provide a way to race that people really do not expect.
The reason this deck is back in Tier 2 is because of the performance of the GW/GWb Aggro deck that got T8 at the PT. It isn't entirely clear where this deck, packing Smiters and Lieges but also Rhinos, should be discussed in this forum. For now, it makes the most sense to have that discussed here. We can always separate it out if that becomes an issue.
The reason this deck is back in Tier 2 is because of the performance of the GW/GWb Aggro deck that got T8 at the PT. It isn't entirely clear where this deck, packing Smiters and Lieges but also Rhinos, should be discussed in this forum. For now, it makes the most sense to have that discussed here. We can always separate it out if that becomes an issue.
I think it is different enough to get its own thread.
The reason this deck is back in Tier 2 is because of the performance of the GW/GWb Aggro deck that got T8 at the PT. It isn't entirely clear where this deck, packing Smiters and Lieges but also Rhinos, should be discussed in this forum. For now, it makes the most sense to have that discussed here. We can always separate it out if that becomes an issue.
I think it is different enough to get its own thread.
All of you should feel free to discuss that distinction here. Some people are talking about it like it's separate, and others are talking about it like it's a Hatebears variation. I'll check in periodically to see what everyone thinks about it.
I'm in the camp that thinks it is a different deck, even if it means starting a new Abzan Aggro thread in Tier 2 and keeping GW Hatebears in developmental. I like a thread to discuss creatures with hate effects and hate cards that can be tailored to a specific metagame. Siege Rhino/kitchen finks/wilt-leaf liege I think of as excellent midrange cards that I don't consider particularly 'hateful'.
When I think hatebears I think thalia, teeg, mindcensor, arbiter, hushwing gryff, voice etc.
It's essentially junk hatebears without the search denial. Instead of trying to make the mana work with something as awful as Sandsteppe Citadel and etc., it drops the Arbiters completely.
The question is whether you can consider an Arbiter-less build "hatebears". It's a tough call but since the deck is essentialy tailor-made to hate on the formats most popular deck, I think you can.
The reason this deck is back in Tier 2 is because of the performance of the GW/GWb Aggro deck that got T8 at the PT. It isn't entirely clear where this deck, packing Smiters and Lieges but also Rhinos, should be discussed in this forum. For now, it makes the most sense to have that discussed here. We can always separate it out if that becomes an issue.
I think that both decks should have separated threads because:
1) Jacob Wilson's deck is more like Junk/Aggro Aggro and packs very little disruption. We are not talking about differences like playing Vial or not, it's adding a third color and removing a lot of things like Scooze, Thalia, Arbiter, Mindcensor (I would still play some birdmans, considering how good Amultet performed). If D&T and Hatebears have different places (and these decks got confused a lot), I think it's the same with Hatebears and Junk/Abzan Aggro. Obviously, this is just my opinion... I think that all flavors of Twin are discussed in the same forum, right?
2) Maybe Wilson's deck is going to gain a lot of popularity, just got a top 8 in a PT, it's the natural evolution from Pod players to something else and it's dirty cheap compared to regular Junk (no Tarmogoyf, Liliana or Confidant).
3) Plain GW Hatebears is still viable (regardless of some players here bitting the forbbided pachyderm fruit ), @Balrog placed second in a recent SCG tourney and like I pointed a few post earlier, Zhou Zhengyang got at least 6-4 in the Modern portion of the Pro Tour.
4) To be fair, everyone is playing some Rhino: Gifts, Zoo, Junk (obv ), Hatebears, Podless Pod (Wilson's deck).
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
I feel like I'm alone in the camp that thinks we should discuss both variants in here. We have been discussing this type of build quite a bit lately, and Abzan colors have been brought up a number of times in the past. This is just the first time we have seen someone do well with this kind of build in the new meta. Most of the cards in the deck are part of the Hatebears shell, and I don't think that we should write it off as a separate deck just because there is no Arbiter/Mindcensor. Several people have posted their own lists which exclude Arbiter and Mindcensor, so I feel it would be inconsistent to suddenly stop discussing these variants.
I would argue that those decklists should not have been posted here in the first place but there was just no other place to put them as "Abzan Aggro" wasn't something that had put up results before.
Now that Rock and Twin are back in force, with UWx decks rising again, has anyone adapted their sideboard? I'm really curious to hear what people are doing. I'm currently on:
I actually scanned two-three pages back and saw a couple of list discussions close to the list that top 8'ed the PT.
So I think it's safe to say it should be bundled up with this thread.
So I decided to try something silly. Cutting the mindcensors, but keeping the arbiters in order to allow a very light splash for Decay and Rhino. It is surprisingly effective, even without fetches to search up, but the effectiveness that Abrupt Decay brings against matchups like Twin and even GBx lists (Decaying a Liliana is so satisfying) can't be denied.
I'm going to stick with the arbiters because having then makes path and ghost quarter so much better.
So I decided to try something silly. Cutting the mindcensors, but keeping the arbiters in order to allow a very light splash for Decay and Rhino. It is surprisingly effective, even without fetches to search up, but the effectiveness that Abrupt Decay brings against matchups like Twin and even GBx lists (Decaying a Liliana is so satisfying) can't be denied.
I'm going to stick with the arbiters because having then makes path and ghost quarter so much better.
Honestly, I was really surprised Wilson's list wasn't running some # of Decay in his 75. The deck picks up points vs. traditional junk and burn but seems super soft to combo. You can't really disrupt them and although your clock isn't technically slow it's not fast either. Decay at least makes creature based combo more manageable.
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I don't see Jacob's list as a hatebears/junk hybrid at all. It looks entirely Junk to me.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Siege Rhino
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Sorcery (6)
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
Instant (4)
4 Path to Exile
3 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Fracturing Gust
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stony Silence
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Rule of Law
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Leyline of Sanctity
I'm a little surprised no Abrupt Decay. I would probably cut a Bird for a 4th Smiter.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
It's definitely more of a Junk Midrange deck than a Hatebears deck, along the lines of what I've been running since the last ba announcement. I think the lack of search hate package is what keeps it from being Hatebears, despite otherwise sharing many cards in common with Hatebears. I do love the list though, although I think 8 mana dorks is a lot (I do understand that 3x Gavony Township makes the dorks a lot better).
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
It might be too ambitious on the manabase, but this would allow playing specific hoser bears (Aegis of the Gods, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Gaddock Teeg, Magus of the Moon) as one-ofs, and provide a way to race that people really do not expect.
The reason this deck is back in Tier 2 is because of the performance of the GW/GWb Aggro deck that got T8 at the PT. It isn't entirely clear where this deck, packing Smiters and Lieges but also Rhinos, should be discussed in this forum. For now, it makes the most sense to have that discussed here. We can always separate it out if that becomes an issue.
I think it is different enough to get its own thread.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
All of you should feel free to discuss that distinction here. Some people are talking about it like it's separate, and others are talking about it like it's a Hatebears variation. I'll check in periodically to see what everyone thinks about it.
When I think hatebears I think thalia, teeg, mindcensor, arbiter, hushwing gryff, voice etc.
The question is whether you can consider an Arbiter-less build "hatebears". It's a tough call but since the deck is essentialy tailor-made to hate on the formats most popular deck, I think you can.
I think that both decks should have separated threads because:
1) Jacob Wilson's deck is more like Junk/Aggro Aggro and packs very little disruption. We are not talking about differences like playing Vial or not, it's adding a third color and removing a lot of things like Scooze, Thalia, Arbiter, Mindcensor (I would still play some birdmans, considering how good Amultet performed). If D&T and Hatebears have different places (and these decks got confused a lot), I think it's the same with Hatebears and Junk/Abzan Aggro. Obviously, this is just my opinion... I think that all flavors of Twin are discussed in the same forum, right?
2) Maybe Wilson's deck is going to gain a lot of popularity, just got a top 8 in a PT, it's the natural evolution from Pod players to something else and it's dirty cheap compared to regular Junk (no Tarmogoyf, Liliana or Confidant).
3) Plain GW Hatebears is still viable (regardless of some players here bitting the forbbided pachyderm fruit ), @Balrog placed second in a recent SCG tourney and like I pointed a few post earlier, Zhou Zhengyang got at least 6-4 in the Modern portion of the Pro Tour.
4) To be fair, everyone is playing some Rhino: Gifts, Zoo, Junk (obv ), Hatebears, Podless Pod (Wilson's deck).
EDIT: On a side note, my updated decklist:
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Path to Exile
1 Batterskull
1 Valorous Stance
Land: 23
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Stony Silence
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Torpor Orb
1 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spellskite
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Torpor Orb
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Thrun
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Aven Mincensor
But most of that is in flux
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
So I think it's safe to say it should be bundled up with this thread.
Maybe rename it to GWx Hatebears?
I'm going to stick with the arbiters because having then makes path and ghost quarter so much better.
RWGisela, Blade of Explosions
Honestly, I was really surprised Wilson's list wasn't running some # of Decay in his 75. The deck picks up points vs. traditional junk and burn but seems super soft to combo. You can't really disrupt them and although your clock isn't technically slow it's not fast either. Decay at least makes creature based combo more manageable.