As far as basics go I would run 3 of each, 2 at the minimum. I think Sunpetal would work better than Brushland concerning life costs, but if you aren't running 4 Temple Garden then it might not be as useful as Brushland because of Brushland coming in untapped guaranteed.
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I'm looking to make the transition from Mono-White D&T to GW Hatebears.
My most difficult decision is the mana base. How many green sources do most Hatebears decks reliably need? I understand the power of Horizon Canopy but I think it might be a little out of my budget to grab a whole playset of right now.
Current manabase for my build that I've been using for months is below. One thing I like about tappedout.com - and maybe other sites have it as well - is the visual graphs on the right side. I've found it helps to see if I have too much of a certain color in the manabase or not.
I believe I posted this earlier in the thread somewhere but one of the better articles I have seen on logically building your manabase is this one: Link
-A distribution of 40% Green Sources 40% white sources and ~20% Colorless (Not counting dorks). I tried going up to 7 colorless sources for awhile but in the end I kept drawing hands with no color source and it definitely cost me games.
-On turn one I have 13 Untapped green sources which leads to a little less than 90% chance of being able to caste the noble/birds.
-By turn two assuming the dorks to count as .5 of a source as per the article I fall at 19.5 colored sources which is just under the 90% mark for double colors.
Personal experience has shown me that my mana-base plays out very consistently and the math done in the article appears solid. Of course you can still get hands with all colorless sources but so far this is the best configuration I have found that still lets me play the ghost quarters and other utility lands.
Some personal notes: Brush - I use this over the 3rd horizon canopy as you can definitely lose games when your forced to tap the canopy too many times versus a fast deck and drawing two of them feels terrible when forced to use them.
Tectonic Edge - I never liked running two but none feels bad sometimes when you need destruction and don't draw a Quarter.
Gavony Township - This card has won me many, many games. It can out grind the value decks like jund and abzan and makes a threat out of all your creatures. I have not tried two but one feels right as I like the 5 colorless destruction effects and drawing multiples is worse than redundant.
Sideboard:
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Stony Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Batterskull
1 Celestial Purge
2 Choke
2 Dismember
2 Spellskite
1 Qasali Pridemage
What do you guys think?
FYI, no Horizon Canopy because I do not own any nor do I want to pay up 30$ per land.
You say you need more basics to combat Blood Moon, but you play nonbasic lands with marginal impact like Eiganjo Castle... Your build also seems to have a lot cards with double-coloured casting cost, and no Qasali MD... That's why you are so soft to Blood Moon, I think. Also, you should try Stirring Wildwoods instead (or along) Treetop Village. It fixes and is Bolt-proof. Thalia delays it for 1 turn, and having board presence before they drop the enchantment helps too. Keep in mind that Pathing or Ghost Quartering yourself can get you a basic.
If you don't want to spend that much, try Brushland instead.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Sideboard:
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Stony Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Batterskull
1 Celestial Purge
2 Choke
2 Dismember
2 Spellskite
1 Qasali Pridemage
What do you guys think?
FYI, no Horizon Canopy because I do not own any nor do I want to pay up 30$ per land.
You say you need more basics to combat Blood Moon, but you play nonbasic lands with marginal impact like Eiganjo Castle... Your build also seems to have a lot cards with double-coloured casting cost, and no Qasali MD... That's why you are so soft to Blood Moon, I think. Also, you should try Stirring Wildwoods instead (or along) Treetop Village. It fixes and is Bolt-proof. Thalia delays it for 1 turn, and having board presence before they drop the enchantment helps too. Keep in mind that Pathing or Ghost Quartering yourself can get you a basic.
If you don't want to spend that much, try Brushland instead.
Oh MG bad I forgot to list that there is 2 mb Qasali Pridemage mb.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I'm coming back to the deck after a fairly lengthy hiatus playing D&T. Can anyone fill me on on our gameplan vs Collected Company decks? Our search hate is still solid, and I see Grafdigger's Cages making a comeback in sideboards. Anything else I'm missing?
Hello, just thought I would post my list that I have been having some success at FNM.
Some notes:
- I am not running the Leonin Arbiter/Ghost Quarter combo as I prefer the beat down route.
- I have quite a few humans in my list which is why I am using Cavern of Souls.
- I usually am only attacking with one creature so Cathedral of War is a nice alternative to the pricey Noble Hierarch. I suppose I could pick up some more Qasali Pridemage to replace this.
EDIT:
- This is a port from Kiki-Pod which is why some cards seem odd. My next step is to pick up some Wilt-Leaf Liege.
- Added final sideboard card.
Hello, just thought I would post my list that I have been having some success at FNM.
Some notes:
- I am not running the Leonin Arbiter/Ghost Quarter combo as I prefer the beat down route.
- I have quite a few humans in my list which is why I am using Cavern of Souls.
- I usually am only attacking with one creature so Cathedral of War is a nice alternative to the pricey Noble Hierarch.
- I am also missing one card from my sideboard that I can't recall right now.
Your 3-drop section seems kinda crowded... While I'm a fan of Blade Splicer+Restoration Angel, I think that they are 'too cute' for Hatebears. They don't hate anything Kitchen Finks is similar to Splicer, and also gains life (revelant against Burn and other decks, like Storm). The 2/1 body left after they kill it the first time can be a lot better than the 1/1 (Splicer itself). Some players run a couple of Resto Angels because (besides the flicker effect) it's a bolt-proof flyer with flash, relevant in a lot of situations.
Keep in mind that playing Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter also supports the beatdown plan, just adds a little disruption and sometimes can remove a manland to clear the way.
Maybe it's just my opinion, but why shold I play GW beatdown when I can play more colors? I would rather play something like Zoo or Abzan Liege (suitable, seeing that you run 8 manadudes). The deck plays a lot of bad creatures compared to the ones in Abzan, Zoo or Jund. Hatebears sacrifices some power in exchange of disruption (Thalia, Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter), it's not 'a collection of GW cards I own'. You have to a) Look at your metagame, and b) Build your deck accordingly to combat that metagame.
About the Noble Hierach thing, the last tourney I played with this deck I was going to play Twin, but switched to Hatebears a few hors before. The guy I usually borrow Hierarchs from was away, and I couldn't find my Birds of Paradise either... I ended up playing 3 Avacyn Pilgrim and the lonely Birds from my Cube, and the deck performed just fine. You don't need to do fancy things like adding Cathedral of War to get an exalted trigger, that's awful for a 2-colored aggro deck. The main use of Hierarch is to accelerate, not to pump. You should be running some Qasali Pridemage in the main. I often side them out, but the Catman can beatdown, exalt someone or remove important things like Cranial Plating, Splinter Twin, Eidolon of the Great Revel or Blood Moon.
Also, consider Wilt-Leak Liege as your curve topper if you really want to beat them down.
I'm sorry if it sounds too rude, it's the combination of my limited English and the fact that I'm mostly Spike
I really hope this helps. Maybe you could scout your LGS and tell us what decks people play there.
@towishimp: the search hate is not that good against that deck, since they don't want to Pod every turn... Collected Company is immune to Arbiter/Mindcensor. It's harder to lock them with MD cards. The good thing is that they don't pack a lot of options like Pod did, and their beatdown plan is worse too (like old Melira Pod versions). Regardless, they can go off at instant speed from an empty board (or semi-empty). It's a Kitchen Twin deck!
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
I'm coming back to the deck after a fairly lengthy hiatus playing D&T. Can anyone fill me on on our gameplan vs Collected Company decks? Our search hate is still solid, and I see Grafdigger's Cages making a comeback in sideboards. Anything else I'm missing?
As the modern meta has continued to develop, unfortunately I have started to drift away from this deck; it just seems to lack power compared to many other decks. Has anybody else been experiencing this lately? The lack of counter spells, hand disruption, and targeted removal just makes this deck inferior to other decks. Don't get me wrong, I love the dream hand of the Ghost Arbiter lock, but how often does it happen? It seems like twin combos off and kills us on turn 4 way more than we lock them out. Hatebears tries to play the game fair and force the opponent onto a level playing field, but at that point why don't I play Abzan and be able to go over the top in fair matchups? Plus, it seems unfair that they get to play legacy staples while we play some past-standard staples that barely cut it in modern as vanilla beaters. With all this being said, don't get me wrong, I still love the deck. However, it just feels inherently very weak to me. I don't know where the deck will go from here, I guess it just depends on innovation from you guys keeping the deck alive. Hopefully some new things can be printed to boost the power level of this deck, but for now, I guess I'm probably retiring it.
I feel that Collected Company and Dromoka's Command solved my problems with power levels. A well timed Company and Liege are usually enough to swing past most anything the opponent has on the field. Command is a great catch-all for decks like Twin, Burn, Infect, and Tokens.
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So, that means that dcovino cheated his way into the top 16 in the SCG premier? The deck is good. The cards aren't that powerful if you compare them to the ones in Abzan. As I said before, in order to play this deck you need to know what are you doing, and know what others are doing with their decks too. The good part is that netdeckers (80% of the player base, maybe?) really don't know what Hatebears does (or any rogue deck), and that gives you an edge.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
As the modern meta has continued to develop, unfortunately I have started to drift away from this deck; it just seems to lack power compared to many other decks. Has anybody else been experiencing this lately? The lack of counter spells, hand disruption, and targeted removal just makes this deck inferior to other decks. Don't get me wrong, I love the dream hand of the Ghost Arbiter lock, but how often does it happen? It seems like twin combos off and kills us on turn 4 way more than we lock them out. Hatebears tries to play the game fair and force the opponent onto a level playing field, but at that point why don't I play Abzan and be able to go over the top in fair matchups? Plus, it seems unfair that they get to play legacy staples while we play some past-standard staples that barely cut it in modern as vanilla beaters. With all this being said, don't get me wrong, I still love the deck. However, it just feels inherently very weak to me. I don't know where the deck will go from here, I guess it just depends on innovation from you guys keeping the deck alive. Hopefully some new things can be printed to boost the power level of this deck, but for now, I guess I'm probably retiring it.
Bear with me as I ramble...
I agree with you in some respects, most notably that the deck relies on forcing unfair decks to play fair to be "good". I find that the hardest matches are ones against aggressive decks that are actually playing fair - Merfolk, Burn, Infect. They don't care terribly much about their mana as they're (mostly) single color and very low cmc spells. I hate needing the Leonin Arbiters as well (made several posts about it last summer) but they are fairly central in generating small but critical tempo gains.
While the deck still doesn't have the most extensive suite of removal like a Jund list would, the addition of Valorous Stance and Dromoka's Command have added more - and sometimes, better - options than just having Path to Exile. To me, using a Path to Exile is my last resort. I'll try to prioritize its use on things that don't tend to get their feet dirty in combat but will win the game like Dark Confidant and Grim Lavamancer. Most Hatebear builds tend to run upward of 30+ creatures; don't be afraid to use them as blockers or force an opponent to block and trade if you have to - you have plenty more coming from your deck.
We play a variety of "vanilla" beaters for sure, but they all have side benefits and impact the game and board state in small but potent ways. This deck makes extensive use of exalted triggers as well (I run 7-8) to push through those extra bits of damage; one Noble Hierarch or Qasali Pridemage on board turns things like Loxodon Smiter, Restoration Angel, Mirran Crusader into fairly effective clocks on the opponent. The surprise effect of flash fliers like Aven Mindcensor, Hushwing Gryff and Restoration Angel can not only introduce backbreaking effects to the opponent when timed right but they can also help dodge Liliana of the Veil's -2, act as "removal" during combat, and are evasive attackers that can grow quite large with some exalted triggers and or Gavony Township activations.
What I've found to be most true of this deck - more so than many other archetypes I play - is that if you dont plan the "right" 75 for the day, you will fail. I state to people all the time that Hatebears is akin to playing a 75 card sideboard. Due to the inherent design of the deck, it will thrive in certain metagames and be god awful in others.
I'm certainly not the God Emperor of Hatebears, but if you want to post your 75 and which matchups you seem to have the most issue with I would be more than happy to give you my take on what cards or strategy I would employ.
I find Thalia to be one of my favorite cards. There are often players who completely ignore or forget about her first strike. The tax which makes Bolt a Strike can also be extremely useful. Kolaghan's Command is seeing a lot of play in Grixis Delver decks, but 3-mana is good, 4-mana it starts to look much less good. It even slows down Snapcaster Mage since the casting cost is still taxed.
I've only tried the deck with 3-of Thalia. I may have to try it with a lower amount. I haven't ever tried Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I may have to!
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Modern GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
I find Thalia to be one of my favorite cards. There are often players who completely ignore or forget about her first strike. The tax which makes Bolt a Strike can also be extremely useful. Kolaghan's Command is seeing a lot of play in Grixis Delver decks, but 3-mana is good, 4-mana it starts to look much less good. It even slows down Snapcaster Mage since the casting cost is still taxed.
I've only tried the deck with 3-of Thalia. I may have to try it with a lower amount. I haven't ever tried Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I may have to!
I personally only run her as a 2 of at the moment, may up it to 3.
Scapeshift: 2-1
Game 1: Got the T2 Arbiter + Ghost Quarter and just beat face from there.
Game 2: He was able to EOT bounce arbiter and then scapeshift me in the face for 36.
Game 3: He had to mulligan to five, while I got to play a T2 Choke.
Collected Elves: 2-1
Game 1: Ridiculous, he played 3 collected companies in the first four turns. Needless to say, I lost.
Game 2: He had a slower start, and I was able to go very aggressive with multiple Wilt-Leaf Lieges.
Game 3: T2 Mirran Crusader and Engineered Explosives backup got me the win this game.
Grixis Twin: 2-1
Game 1: Got to Curve out like a boss.
Game 2: Landed a choke, but all my green permanents were bounced back to my hand which really set me back.
Game 3: Voice followed by Choke and more creatures got there.
UR Twin: 2-0
Game 1: Got the T2 Arbiter + Ghost Quarter and just beat face from there.
Game 2: So awkward. He got a blood moon out after my T2 Smiter. On my next turn I was able to land a choke (with my bird). He killed the bird on his turn. Then I slowly killed him with my smiter as neither of us were able to cast anything.
I find myself doing really well against Junk and UR decks. Gavony, anti-discard, and resilient creatures are great against junk, while smiter, voice, and thalia are awesome against control. Unsurprisingly, I still do terrible against affinity. I'm considering adding a Wrath of God to the side for mirror matches and other creature decks. I see a lot of people cutting Mindcensors, but I need them main as my meta has quite a few Tron, Bloom Titan, and Scapeshift.
My meta consists of 3-4 Junk, 4-5 Twin, 2 Bloom Titan, 2 tron, 1 Scapeshift, 2 Collected Elves, 1 Affinity, 4 Burn, 3 UWx Midrange/Control, 2 Death and Taxes, and then a bunch of weird decks like Restore Balance, Ghostway, Dredgevine, Zombies, etc.
My LGS is doing a modern FNM tonight and I just put together a GW Hatebears deck. It doesn't have aethervials or finks, and the sideboard could use work. This is what I'm taking in. Thoughts or recommendations?
Current manabase for my build that I've been using for months is below. One thing I like about tappedout.com - and maybe other sites have it as well - is the visual graphs on the right side. I've found it helps to see if I have too much of a certain color in the manabase or not.
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Tectonic Edge
3x Temple Garden
1x Treetop Village
Along with that here is my current manabase:
1 Gavony Township
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Brushland
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
This gives me the following statistics:
-A distribution of 40% Green Sources 40% white sources and ~20% Colorless (Not counting dorks). I tried going up to 7 colorless sources for awhile but in the end I kept drawing hands with no color source and it definitely cost me games.
-On turn one I have 13 Untapped green sources which leads to a little less than 90% chance of being able to caste the noble/birds.
-By turn two assuming the dorks to count as .5 of a source as per the article I fall at 19.5 colored sources which is just under the 90% mark for double colors.
Personal experience has shown me that my mana-base plays out very consistently and the math done in the article appears solid. Of course you can still get hands with all colorless sources but so far this is the best configuration I have found that still lets me play the ghost quarters and other utility lands.
Some personal notes:
Brush - I use this over the 3rd horizon canopy as you can definitely lose games when your forced to tap the canopy too many times versus a fast deck and drawing two of them feels terrible when forced to use them.
Stirring Wildwood - Has been an all star especially getting past control and providing a huge threat with Wilt-Leaf Liege out.
Tectonic Edge - I never liked running two but none feels bad sometimes when you need destruction and don't draw a Quarter.
Gavony Township - This card has won me many, many games. It can out grind the value decks like jund and abzan and makes a threat out of all your creatures. I have not tried two but one feels right as I like the 5 colorless destruction effects and drawing multiples is worse than redundant.
GUGEdric, Spymaster of Trest - Elfball
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic- Doomsday!
RWUEphara, God of the Polis - Blink + Control
GBGGlissa, the Traitor - Stax & Lands
URGMaelstrom Wanderer - Goodstuff RUG
RGWMayael the Anima - Timmy
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher - The One Hit Wonder
RGWMarath, Will of the Wild - Old-school Enchantress Hate
RWRAurelia, the Warleader - Equipment Aggro
GGGReki, the History of Kamigawa - Legends + Banding
UBRSedris, the Traitor King - Creatures with : Ability
BUBPhenax, God of Deception - Mill
*Sidenote, I specifically excluded infinite combos from all these decks with the exception of Marath and the squirrel nest + Earthcraft combo.
Looking for something Aggressive in modern? Try - BR Aggro
By the way, I'm comming from the W/x DnT thread, ended up not liking playing with Aether Vials, instead I'd rather have exalted mana dorks instead.
Here's my list...
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging OOze
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Restoration Angel
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
5 Plains
2 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Eiganjos Castle
2 Treetop Village
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
Sideboard:
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Stony Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Batterskull
1 Celestial Purge
2 Choke
2 Dismember
2 Spellskite
1 Qasali Pridemage
What do you guys think?
FYI, no Horizon Canopy because I do not own any nor do I want to pay up 30$ per land.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
You say you need more basics to combat Blood Moon, but you play nonbasic lands with marginal impact like Eiganjo Castle... Your build also seems to have a lot cards with double-coloured casting cost, and no Qasali MD... That's why you are so soft to Blood Moon, I think. Also, you should try Stirring Wildwoods instead (or along) Treetop Village. It fixes and is Bolt-proof. Thalia delays it for 1 turn, and having board presence before they drop the enchantment helps too. Keep in mind that Pathing or Ghost Quartering yourself can get you a basic.
If you don't want to spend that much, try Brushland instead.
Oh MG bad I forgot to list that there is 2 mb Qasali Pridemage mb.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Some notes:
- I am not running the Leonin Arbiter/Ghost Quarter combo as I prefer the beat down route.
- I have quite a few humans in my list which is why I am using Cavern of Souls.
- I usually am only attacking with one creature so Cathedral of War is a nice alternative to the pricey Noble Hierarch. I suppose I could pick up some more Qasali Pridemage to replace this.
EDIT:
- This is a port from Kiki-Pod which is why some cards seem odd. My next step is to pick up some Wilt-Leaf Liege.
- Added final sideboard card.
4x Path to Exile
4x Rancor
Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Loxodon Smiter
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Mirran Crusader
4x Restoration Angel
4x Blade Splicer
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4x Temple Garden
3x Windswept Heath
1x Sunpetal Grove
2x Gavony Township
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Cathedral of War
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Voice of Resurgence
1x Spellskite
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Dismember
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Harmonic Sliver
Your 3-drop section seems kinda crowded... While I'm a fan of Blade Splicer+Restoration Angel, I think that they are 'too cute' for Hatebears. They don't hate anything Kitchen Finks is similar to Splicer, and also gains life (revelant against Burn and other decks, like Storm). The 2/1 body left after they kill it the first time can be a lot better than the 1/1 (Splicer itself). Some players run a couple of Resto Angels because (besides the flicker effect) it's a bolt-proof flyer with flash, relevant in a lot of situations.
Keep in mind that playing Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter also supports the beatdown plan, just adds a little disruption and sometimes can remove a manland to clear the way.
Maybe it's just my opinion, but why shold I play GW beatdown when I can play more colors? I would rather play something like Zoo or Abzan Liege (suitable, seeing that you run 8 manadudes). The deck plays a lot of bad creatures compared to the ones in Abzan, Zoo or Jund. Hatebears sacrifices some power in exchange of disruption (Thalia, Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter), it's not 'a collection of GW cards I own'. You have to a) Look at your metagame, and b) Build your deck accordingly to combat that metagame.
About the Noble Hierach thing, the last tourney I played with this deck I was going to play Twin, but switched to Hatebears a few hors before. The guy I usually borrow Hierarchs from was away, and I couldn't find my Birds of Paradise either... I ended up playing 3 Avacyn Pilgrim and the lonely Birds from my Cube, and the deck performed just fine. You don't need to do fancy things like adding Cathedral of War to get an exalted trigger, that's awful for a 2-colored aggro deck. The main use of Hierarch is to accelerate, not to pump. You should be running some Qasali Pridemage in the main. I often side them out, but the Catman can beatdown, exalt someone or remove important things like Cranial Plating, Splinter Twin, Eidolon of the Great Revel or Blood Moon.
Also, consider Wilt-Leak Liege as your curve topper if you really want to beat them down.
I'm sorry if it sounds too rude, it's the combination of my limited English and the fact that I'm mostly Spike
I really hope this helps. Maybe you could scout your LGS and tell us what decks people play there.
@towishimp: the search hate is not that good against that deck, since they don't want to Pod every turn... Collected Company is immune to Arbiter/Mindcensor. It's harder to lock them with MD cards. The good thing is that they don't pack a lot of options like Pod did, and their beatdown plan is worse too (like old Melira Pod versions). Regardless, they can go off at instant speed from an empty board (or semi-empty). It's a Kitchen Twin deck!
Hushwing Gryff
This is one of the most beautiful decks I've ever seen in my life. <3
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Bear with me as I ramble...
I agree with you in some respects, most notably that the deck relies on forcing unfair decks to play fair to be "good". I find that the hardest matches are ones against aggressive decks that are actually playing fair - Merfolk, Burn, Infect. They don't care terribly much about their mana as they're (mostly) single color and very low cmc spells. I hate needing the Leonin Arbiters as well (made several posts about it last summer) but they are fairly central in generating small but critical tempo gains.
While the deck still doesn't have the most extensive suite of removal like a Jund list would, the addition of Valorous Stance and Dromoka's Command have added more - and sometimes, better - options than just having Path to Exile. To me, using a Path to Exile is my last resort. I'll try to prioritize its use on things that don't tend to get their feet dirty in combat but will win the game like Dark Confidant and Grim Lavamancer. Most Hatebear builds tend to run upward of 30+ creatures; don't be afraid to use them as blockers or force an opponent to block and trade if you have to - you have plenty more coming from your deck.
We play a variety of "vanilla" beaters for sure, but they all have side benefits and impact the game and board state in small but potent ways. This deck makes extensive use of exalted triggers as well (I run 7-8) to push through those extra bits of damage; one Noble Hierarch or Qasali Pridemage on board turns things like Loxodon Smiter, Restoration Angel, Mirran Crusader into fairly effective clocks on the opponent. The surprise effect of flash fliers like Aven Mindcensor, Hushwing Gryff and Restoration Angel can not only introduce backbreaking effects to the opponent when timed right but they can also help dodge Liliana of the Veil's -2, act as "removal" during combat, and are evasive attackers that can grow quite large with some exalted triggers and or Gavony Township activations.
What I've found to be most true of this deck - more so than many other archetypes I play - is that if you dont plan the "right" 75 for the day, you will fail. I state to people all the time that Hatebears is akin to playing a 75 card sideboard. Due to the inherent design of the deck, it will thrive in certain metagames and be god awful in others.
I'm certainly not the God Emperor of Hatebears, but if you want to post your 75 and which matchups you seem to have the most issue with I would be more than happy to give you my take on what cards or strategy I would employ.
I find Thalia to be one of my favorite cards. There are often players who completely ignore or forget about her first strike. The tax which makes Bolt a Strike can also be extremely useful. Kolaghan's Command is seeing a lot of play in Grixis Delver decks, but 3-mana is good, 4-mana it starts to look much less good. It even slows down Snapcaster Mage since the casting cost is still taxed.
I've only tried the deck with 3-of Thalia. I may have to try it with a lower amount. I haven't ever tried Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I may have to!
GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I personally only run her as a 2 of at the moment, may up it to 3.
Here's my list currently...
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Restoration Angel
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
5 Plains
2 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Eiganjos Castle
1 Stirring Wildwoods
1 Treetop Village
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
Sideboard:
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Stony Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Batterskull
1 Rest In Peace
2 Choke
2 Dismember
2 Spellskite
1 Creeping Corrosion
How does my manabase look like? Is 23 lands enough?
Also I would like some other opinions on the changes I was thinking of on the deck...
-1 Ulvenwald Tracker
-1 ???
+2 Hushwing Gryf
Or simply just going...
-1 Ulvenwald Trackers
+1 Restoration Angel/Hero of Bladehold
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Path to Exile
Lands (23):
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Gavony Township
3 Stony Silence
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Choke
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
My matchups:
Scapeshift: 2-1
Game 1: Got the T2 Arbiter + Ghost Quarter and just beat face from there.
Game 2: He was able to EOT bounce arbiter and then scapeshift me in the face for 36.
Game 3: He had to mulligan to five, while I got to play a T2 Choke.
Collected Elves: 2-1
Game 1: Ridiculous, he played 3 collected companies in the first four turns. Needless to say, I lost.
Game 2: He had a slower start, and I was able to go very aggressive with multiple Wilt-Leaf Lieges.
Game 3: T2 Mirran Crusader and Engineered Explosives backup got me the win this game.
Grixis Twin: 2-1
Game 1: Got to Curve out like a boss.
Game 2: Landed a choke, but all my green permanents were bounced back to my hand which really set me back.
Game 3: Voice followed by Choke and more creatures got there.
UR Twin: 2-0
Game 1: Got the T2 Arbiter + Ghost Quarter and just beat face from there.
Game 2: So awkward. He got a blood moon out after my T2 Smiter. On my next turn I was able to land a choke (with my bird). He killed the bird on his turn. Then I slowly killed him with my smiter as neither of us were able to cast anything.
I find myself doing really well against Junk and UR decks. Gavony, anti-discard, and resilient creatures are great against junk, while smiter, voice, and thalia are awesome against control. Unsurprisingly, I still do terrible against affinity. I'm considering adding a Wrath of God to the side for mirror matches and other creature decks. I see a lot of people cutting Mindcensors, but I need them main as my meta has quite a few Tron, Bloom Titan, and Scapeshift.
My meta consists of 3-4 Junk, 4-5 Twin, 2 Bloom Titan, 2 tron, 1 Scapeshift, 2 Collected Elves, 1 Affinity, 4 Burn, 3 UWx Midrange/Control, 2 Death and Taxes, and then a bunch of weird decks like Restore Balance, Ghostway, Dredgevine, Zombies, etc.
Any advice/feedback would be appreciated.
Naya Burn
Grixis Twin
3x Aven Mindcensor
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
4x Path to Exile
Lands
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Brushland
2x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Stirring Wildwood
2x Tectonic Edge
4x Temple Garden
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Restoration Angel
2 Celestial Purge
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grand Abolisher