Hi people, I really love hatebears and I will build this deck on mtgo, but it seems everyone lost interest in it, do you know why?
People switch over to little kid junk. It still has a decent player base. It just toped at an scg event.
It gained some popularity with Jacob Wilson's top 8 in the PT, and then again last month with Collected Company, but it's not a popular deck. It's usually seen as a bad, cheap, or a 'little kid' deck. Regardless, I think that it's a powerful deck if you know what are you doing.
I'm having some doubts in my build should I play the play set of horizon canopy's or three of them are enough?
Plus I have been testing collected company, and most of the time is really awkward and bad, at least for now I have been experimenting, some harmonize for card draws and it is ok.i won many games because of it.
I didn't jump in the CC bandwagon, and now everybody dropped it It's good in the neo-Pod deck, but I don't like it here. I think that 3 Horizon Canopy is a fine number (I'm playing 2 and 1 Brushland right now).
Game 1 was incredibly grindy. I got him down to 4 life fairly quickly but then he was able to stabilize and grind it out for a lot of turns. Path to Exile took care of the couple Wurmcoil Engines he stuck, but he kept drawing a ton of cards off Thirst for Knowledge and getting Remand, Repeal, etc. He wasn't running any Eldrazi and I had Ghost Quartered his Academy Ruins earlier in the game, so his only win-con was Platinum Angel. He resolved it with one card left in his library, passed the turn, and I drew a Path off the top to exile his Angel and swing for the win.
Not much to say about Game 1, he got stuck on two lands for almost the entire game. He had Abrupt Decay for a couple of my early creatures but then didn't draw any more answers or lands for the rest of the game.
Overall the deck ran really well, I feel like it has a lot of game against a wide variety of decks. Ghost Quarter was insane for me, often even without an Arbiter in play my opponents didn't have basics to find, or even if they did, hitting their shocks and Tron lands was enough to keep them off good mana for most of the game. I'm really loving this deck and it feels like it's pretty well positioned, at least in my local meta.
Hi guys,
I like more and more Wg Hatebears idea and I am planning to make it my deck of choice in Modern.
How do you deal with swarming decks like Green Devotion for example?
Swarm decks are dealt with Engineered Explosives or bigger creatures, and the Green Devotion deck usually need to search the library too, so Arbiter and Mindcensor are good here too. Attacking with a big exalted dude is a good strategy.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Been playing this deck for about 16 months now, mostly (about a year) straight GW, recently experimented with a brewish Abzan Hatebears list and most lately have come back to the pure GW build.
I have to say, the Deck was way better when most Metas were basically Scapeshift/Jund/Twin. Burn and Infect have rarely been the best matchups, just like affinity they tend to be way too fast G1. Even though you can surely board vs them really good, i found that you still wont most likely go above a 55-45%-ish chance of beating them.
Anyhow, i have come to brew again with the deck, because i just cant put it down:
As you can see, the deck aims to have a decent matchup (at worst after boarding) vs Infect, Burn, Abzan, Affinity and Twin.
I chose to cut down on every creature above cmc3 and go for a full package of Collected Company which then can search out the silver bullets.
It still is in the brewing, so i wonder what you all are thinking. What im lacking most at the moment are good beaters. Finks is really nice vs everything aggro and burn, but then again having something more powerful would be nice. Too bad Brimaz is legendary, because otherwise i'd probably play 3 of him.
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I'm really excited to try out Collected Company with Geist of Saint Traft. There are 27 legal targets for CC which is plenty. The manabase will definitely include fetchlands so there are no Leonin Arbiters. Colourless lands would be mediocre in a 3 colour deck like this anyways. Geist is protected with Restoration Angel and Path to Exile in this deck and that may not be enough. Exalted triggers can help. There are other powerful hatebears in the SB which are targets for CC. The manabase still needs work. Any feedback would be great.
So lets go matchup by matchup.
1. Delver
This is probably our worst matchup right now which is rough given the popularity of the deck. We can hit their lands but they don't really need many, just try to keep them off red, get down a Thalia, sustain with Scooze, and use resilient boltproof creatures to push the win through. Game 2 bring in Spellskites, Rest in Peace, and a Linvala (doesn't die to bolt, turns off Tasigur engine), cut Pridemages, Mindcensors, and a Hushwing Gryff. Keep them off red again, and black if possible, we don't care if they have blue.
2. Infect
I'm continuing on with the worse matchups, we now have 6 removal spells maindeck! Yaay, destroy their Wild Defiance on sight as well as their Spellskites, hold your paths for the last possible second or force them to burn a vines on your turn, land and stick a Thalia, do your best to not let her die, game 2 cut Mindcensor and Hushwing Gryff, bring in 3 Spellskite, you know the drill.
3. Burn
Lets start getting into the good matchups, with a less painful manabase we're coming out ahead here, drop your Thalia to draw a bolt, throw your finks down, trade aggressively and then throw down a scooze to scoop up your life total and your opponents cards. Save Dromoka's command to 2 for 1 an eidolon and a removal/damage spell. Post board bring in 3 Kor Firewalker again over Mindcensor and Gryff, bring in spellskites over 3 of your Arbiters, proceed to win step.
4. Affinity
Our game 1 isn't as laughably bad as it used to be, use Dromoka's command to snipe things off, land a Linvala ASAP, try to keep the board trimmed and use your Pridemages aggressively.
Game 2 side out (again) Mindcensors and Gryffs (they aren't our bad cards they're our flex slot, I'll explain more later) bring in Stony Silences, you can also cut a Liege for another Linvala if you really want/if they're big affinity. Mull aggressively for a Stony Silence (but not too aggressively).
5. Junk/Jund
We run 3 Wilt-Leaf Liege and 3 Smiters... If they drop a Lili it's a 3 mana edict 90% of the time, try to keep them off their mana, their base is painful and if you can punish them for it on top of it you can get ahead and win, there's not much of a board for this matchup, if it seems like they're running a full set of Souls + Tasigur + Goyf then RIP might be prudent, I'd advise it over Gryff and a pridemage, our Mindcensors do work here to make their fetches actively worse. For the Jund matchup just remember how relevant your Commands are.
6. GR Tron
Ha... Hahahahaha... If you need me to tell you how to play this matchup than you probably aren't meant for this deck, but here it goes, strip mine/ghost quarter their tron lands, stop them from searching their library, beat them down with creatures and don't overextend into pyroclasm. Game 2 bring in Stony Silences over Gryff, Linvala, and Wilf-Leaf, you can mull aggressively for them because they actually do a LOT of work to shut down Tron. Beat them down.
7. Bloom Titan
Hope they don't have a turn 2 or 3 kill, get down Leonin Arbiter, Path any titans that come out on 3 or 4, keep them off their land and win, game 2 is much the same, don't even bother boarding.
8. Twin
Here it is ladies and gentleman, the scariest match of our top 8 gauntlet, but actually no it's not really that bad anymore, keep them off double red, keep a pridemage on board, beat face, land a Hushwing Gryff in response to a Twin, keep up Dromoka's Command and or Path to Exile, you'll be ok. Post board bring in Linvala number 2, 3 Chokes, and 3 Spellskites, cut Finks, Scooze, and Lieges, yeah it sound scary to take out our big beaters against a legitimate tempo deck but this is where the resource denial gets REAL, drop a turn 2 Choke and watch them pick up their cards, get down an arbiter and some ghost quarters or tec edges to take care of all those pesky non-islands, you know the drill.
I made some adjustments, primarily that I cut the gryff and brought a bit more counterplay into the deck with Dromoka's command, in addition I cut an Eiganjo's castle and the Tec Edge to bring in a plains and a Flagstones, I've had some awkward runins with blood moon and control decks in general have been rough and are even worse when you stumble on mana.
After a long period playing burn, i`ve been testing this deck for a while, and the matchup that really scares me is Affinity: i`ve never been able to win a single game against that deck.
This is my current list:
After a lot of testing, coming from a monoW Death/Taxes, i came to the conclusion that Æther Vial is not as strong as i imagined, and i`m going to try to replace them with 3 Dromoka's Command
Drawing inspiration from Liefbrad list, i`m also trying to include Linvala, Keeper of Silence in my list, if my budget will allow me to do so
Also, the current sideboard is a mess, and the inclusion of the Dromoka's Command in the main deck makes Burrenton Forge Tender and Dismember not as good.
This is the final list i have in mind:
What i found most difficult last night was the Grixis Control matchup: the counters he kept throwing at me really hurt my gameplan, often denying me the turn 2 Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter or a Restoration Angel played to avoid removal on my creatures.
I'm actually struggling: should i put the AEther Vials back and move the Dromoka's Commands to the sideboard?
I was also thinking about adding 2 copies of Voice of Resurgence, but they get effective only if i can manage to play them without receiving a counter from the other side of the table.
A thing i can surely do is bump the Loxodon Smiters up to 4, since i found 2 Dromoka's Commands more than enough.
What would you guys suggest?
In my experience against Delver it's the one matchup that I genuinely can't find a solution for us winning against, it's more controlling of the board, has a faster clock, and generally goes bigger than us. It's a lot more susceptible to other decks than we are, but you'll find that controlling decks are this variants worst matchup. I suppose vials would be a solution to that but honestly I don't think there's any sideboard space for them and you need to get them on turn 1 for them to be relevant. It's a matchup that I personally am for the most part willing to concede that it is just bad.
What i found most difficult last night was the Grixis Control matchup: the counters he kept throwing at me really hurt my gameplan, often denying me the turn 2 Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter or a Restoration Angel played to avoid removal on my creatures.
I'm actually struggling: should i put the AEther Vials back and move the Dromoka's Commands to the sideboard?
I was also thinking about adding 2 copies of Voice of Resurgence, but they get effective only if i can manage to play them without receiving a counter from the other side of the table.
A thing i can surely do is bump the Loxodon Smiters up to 4, since i found 2 Dromoka's Commands more than enough.
What would you guys suggest?
In my experience against Delver it's the one matchup that I genuinely can't find a solution for us winning against, it's more controlling of the board, has a faster clock, and generally goes bigger than us. It's a lot more susceptible to other decks than we are, but you'll find that controlling decks are this variants worst matchup. I suppose vials would be a solution to that but honestly I don't think there's any sideboard space for them and you need to get them on turn 1 for them to be relevant. It's a matchup that I personally am for the most part willing to concede that it is just bad.
What about a couple of Grand Abolisher in the board to go along with another copy of Choke? Voices seem good as well, and can probably take the place of the 2 Birds in the main.
I only have experience against UR Delver, and that wasn't that hard to beat... Loxodon Smiter is good here: it dodges counters and burn, and can be a fast clock. Grixis list seems to do a lot of damage to themselves, so you need to know when to change gears and start attacking. Path, Mindcensors (if somebody still run thoses, I still do) and Stirring Wildwoods help against Delver. Engineered Explosives can deal with tokens (and a flipped Delver), but they aren't really a problem if you can keep some blockers. Choke can be game, they only have 4 non-island mana sources, and consider bringing the Burn hate as well if you have it (in the rise of Treasure Cruise, mine was Kor Firewalker and it was a beast), something like Celestial Purge can do some work.
Grand Abolisher seems really bad. If I'm playing Grixis Delver vs a deck like Hatebears with Voice, Smiter, Thrun and a lot of small blockers, I will probably take some counterspells for more removal...
But after reading the original post, he was talking about Grixis Control That's usually harder than Jeskai Control, since they have real removal (against Jeskai, being Bolt-proof is a good thing for Voice, Smiter, Finks, Wildwood, Thrun, or even Liege). They don't have any lifegain, so try to attack when you can.
I don't like Vial in Hatebears, against Control (the match that matters) it reduces your treat density and counters aren't really a problem, removal is.
Edit: I always play 4 Loxodon Smiter, it's good against one of the most played cards (Lightning Bolt), dodges counters, good vs discard, and it's a fast clock vs decks like Storm where those things don't matter.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
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But after reading the original post, he was talking about Grixis Control That's usually harder than Jeskai Control, since they have real removal (against Jeskai, being Bolt-proof is a good thing for Voice, Smiter, Finks, Wildwood, Thrun, or even Liege). They don't have any lifegain, so try to attack when you can.
I've seen Troll-Worship just beat UR decks, does Grixis-Control have anything for it?
But after reading the original post, he was talking about Grixis Control That's usually harder than Jeskai Control, since they have real removal (against Jeskai, being Bolt-proof is a good thing for Voice, Smiter, Finks, Wildwood, Thrun, or even Liege). They don't have any lifegain, so try to attack when you can.
I've seen Troll-Worship just beat UR decks, does Grixis-Control have anything for it?
Maybe it's just my opinion, but Troll+Worship is good when you don't want to lose (Storm, Affinity, decks that are 'the beatdown' according to Mike Flores). Playing Worship against control doesn't solve anything, they beat you by killing your dudes and countering your things (controlling the game :p), and then they kill you in some way but that doesn't matter. I would rather have Thrun+Choke than Thrun+Worship (or any good card vs Control, like Smiter, Finks, Voice, lands that do things, etc). Besides, they can always bounce Worship with Cryptic Command :/ (bouncing Choke is harder). Against control, you need to be aggresive and disruptive.
@Lincae: I like your list, but I don't like playing a lot of the same card... Maybe you could swap a couple of Stony Silence and a Kataki for a Creeping Corrosion/Fracturing Gust and 2 Engineered Explosives. I have found that Stony Silence does very little if they already equipped something or if they have an Etched Champion, and Kataki can be avoided with a lot of Nexi and Glimmervoid. The sweepers cost more, but it's game over if you drop one. Explosives helps in other random matchups too, like Infect, Burn, Tokens, Merfolk, Storm (hitting Ascensions and Empty the Warrens), etc. edit: and Delver too! since is popular right now
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Been on hiatus with this deck for a while as I tried some brews and other established decks in the format for a change of pace. With the meta looking very similar to last year ("pod", GBx, twin, burn, etc) I figured it would be a good time to put in a few tweaks with new cards and take it out to SCG IQ Worcester this weekend. Much of the 75 is the same as I was piloting @ GP Worcester last July - I removed 1 Bird of Paradise and 1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos to make room for 2 Dromoka's Command in the main.
Ended up with wins against Twin, Collected Abzan, Infect x2, Burn, Tron, UW Control and losses to Jund and Burn for a 7-2 record and placing 15th out of approximately 275 players. The losses were both in three games; I never felt that the deck was outclassed, it just wasn't in the cards to get the second game win for the match.
Overall very happy with the list, with changes in the sideboard going forward. The damage prevention clause on Dromoka's Command most likely renders Mark of Asylum redundant / outclassed. I'll also most likely remove Worship for something like Phyrexian Unlife instead.
Been on hiatus with this deck for a while as I tried some brews and other established decks in the format for a change of pace. With the meta looking very similar to last year ("pod", GBx, twin, burn, etc) I figured it would be a good time to put in a few tweaks with new cards and take it out to SCG IQ Worcester this weekend. Much of the 75 is the same as I was piloting @ GP Worcester last July - I removed 1 Bird of Paradise and 1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos to make room for 2 Dromoka's Command in the main.
Ended up with wins against Twin, Collected Abzan, Infect x2, Burn, Tron, UW Control and losses to Jund and Burn for a 7-2 record and placing 15th out of approximately 275 players. The losses were both in three games; I never felt that the deck was outclassed, it just wasn't in the cards to get the second game win for the match.
Overall very happy with the list, with changes in the sideboard going forward. The damage prevention clause on Dromoka's Command most likely renders Mark of Asylum redundant / outclassed. I'll also most likely remove Worship for something like Phyrexian Unlife instead.
Congrats, and great list! Modern is a format that rewards players that know what they are doing, and clearly you know how to play Hatebears.
I have a few questions:
- No Kitchen Finks? Is Command enough to deal with burn?
- I'm guessing that the Melira is against Infect, how was it? Don't you feel that another Explosives can do some work against another decks too? (I like versatility, but Melira can only be used in that matchup)
- The BSA+Batterskull package is just for BGx? Do you use it against Burn too?
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Congrats, and great list! Modern is a format that rewards players that know what they are doing, and clearly you know how to play Hatebears.
I have a few questions:
- No Kitchen Finks? Is Command enough to deal with burn?
- I'm guessing that the Melira is against Infect, how was it? Don't you feel that another Explosives can do some work against another decks too? (I like versatility, but Melira can only be used in that matchup)
- The BSA+Batterskull package is just for BGx? Do you use it against Burn too?
I do the following (typically) against Burn. I've found that Kitchen Finks against them is good and certainly an option but my sideboard slots are limited since I like to have a lot of singletons and overlaps where possible. The key that I've found to beating burn is not so much lifegain (although it definitely helps) but killing their creatures and having larger threats to close out a game quicker. The Burn decks nowadays tend to hurt themselves with their Naya manabases, always thinking their life total just matters less than yours - which in many cases is definitely true. The key card I try to neutralize as soon as possible is Eidolon of the Great Revel since obviously it allows them to keep the pressure on when they run out of cards and where Engineered Explosives, Dromoka's Command, and Qasali Pridemage do a lot of work. Additionally the "trick" of putting 4 total mana but only 2 colors in to the explosives saves on the Eidolon damage but still allows you to blow it up.
Regarding Melira and infect - I've found that the matchup is historically one of my worst and since Melira essentially neuters it I was willing to dedicate one slot to a single matchup. You can always gain life against most agro deck but until they reprint Leeches, poison stays. The ability of infect to protect its creatures with Vines of Vastwood allows them to keep their stuff alive easier than most decks so I liked having the trump available. She definitely won a non-zero amount of games this weekend.
FNM Modern tonight, first time I've been there in a while because of injuries. The only decks I know for sure I will see are Infect, Affinity, and Splinter Twin. This is what I've got for my list:
I cut down to 3 Collected Company because it felt that I was always getting clogged with multiple copies, so I switched one for a Dromoka's Command. I'm not sure if Gaddock Teeg is going to stay in the sideboard, if he doesn't stay he'll get switched for a Thalia. I don't have access to Noble Hierarch or the funds to obtain them, so I'm going with Birds and Pilgrim until I can get some.
Post FNM EDIT
ended up going 3-0, however I did not face the previously mentioned decks. Instead I faced Dragons (standard player signed up for Modern so it would fire off. 2-0), Jund (2-0), and BW Tokens (2-0). The Dragons matchup I didnt really get to see much because of some awful luck on his part. Jund ended up in a stalemate for a few turns in game 1 where he had Liliana of the Veil with 1 counter and no creatures on field and I had Wilt-Leaf Liege in hand but no third G/W mana to cast him. It eventually broke when he gambled on a Dark Confidant and died to revealing Huntmaster of the Fells. Game 2 he couldnt get a second B/R mana due to Leonin Arbiter and Ghost Quarter and he eventually died to a Liege empowered swing. BW Tokens game 1 was a continuous one-up contest that ended with double Wilt-Leaf Liege pumped creatures swinging for lethal. Game 2 he got an early lead thanks to a timely Tidehollow Sculler and Lingering Souls, but once again Wilt-Leaf Liege was the power boost I needed to take him down.
I'm looking to make the transition from Mono-White D&T to GW Hatebears.
My most difficult decision is the mana base. How many green sources do most Hatebears decks reliably need? I understand the power of Horizon Canopy but I think it might be a little out of my budget to grab a whole playset of right now.
It gained some popularity with Jacob Wilson's top 8 in the PT, and then again last month with Collected Company, but it's not a popular deck. It's usually seen as a bad, cheap, or a 'little kid' deck. Regardless, I think that it's a powerful deck if you know what are you doing.
I didn't jump in the CC bandwagon, and now everybody dropped it It's good in the neo-Pod deck, but I don't like it here. I think that 3 Horizon Canopy is a fine number (I'm playing 2 and 1 Brushland right now).
Nice decklist, what's in your sideboard?
Swarm decks are dealt with Engineered Explosives or bigger creatures, and the Green Devotion deck usually need to search the library too, so Arbiter and Mindcensor are good here too. Attacking with a big exalted dude is a good strategy.
I have to say, the Deck was way better when most Metas were basically Scapeshift/Jund/Twin. Burn and Infect have rarely been the best matchups, just like affinity they tend to be way too fast G1. Even though you can surely board vs them really good, i found that you still wont most likely go above a 55-45%-ish chance of beating them.
Anyhow, i have come to brew again with the deck, because i just cant put it down:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Spellskite
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Path to Exile
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Brushland
2 Spellskite
1 Kataki
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Choke
As you can see, the deck aims to have a decent matchup (at worst after boarding) vs Infect, Burn, Abzan, Affinity and Twin.
I chose to cut down on every creature above cmc3 and go for a full package of Collected Company which then can search out the silver bullets.
It still is in the brewing, so i wonder what you all are thinking. What im lacking most at the moment are good beaters. Finks is really nice vs everything aggro and burn, but then again having something more powerful would be nice. Too bad Brimaz is legendary, because otherwise i'd probably play 3 of him.
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Restoration Angel
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
Land (23)
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Aven Mindsencor
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Hushwing Gryff
1 Kataki, War's Sage
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Meddling Mage
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Rest In Peace
1 Stony Silence
I'm really excited to try out Collected Company with Geist of Saint Traft. There are 27 legal targets for CC which is plenty. The manabase will definitely include fetchlands so there are no Leonin Arbiters. Colourless lands would be mediocre in a 3 colour deck like this anyways. Geist is protected with Restoration Angel and Path to Exile in this deck and that may not be enough. Exalted triggers can help. There are other powerful hatebears in the SB which are targets for CC. The manabase still needs work. Any feedback would be great.
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Hushwing Gryff
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Smiter
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
Lands (22)
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Temple Garden
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
3 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
3 Choke
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
So lets go matchup by matchup.
1. Delver
This is probably our worst matchup right now which is rough given the popularity of the deck. We can hit their lands but they don't really need many, just try to keep them off red, get down a Thalia, sustain with Scooze, and use resilient boltproof creatures to push the win through. Game 2 bring in Spellskites, Rest in Peace, and a Linvala (doesn't die to bolt, turns off Tasigur engine), cut Pridemages, Mindcensors, and a Hushwing Gryff. Keep them off red again, and black if possible, we don't care if they have blue.
2. Infect
I'm continuing on with the worse matchups, we now have 6 removal spells maindeck! Yaay, destroy their Wild Defiance on sight as well as their Spellskites, hold your paths for the last possible second or force them to burn a vines on your turn, land and stick a Thalia, do your best to not let her die, game 2 cut Mindcensor and Hushwing Gryff, bring in 3 Spellskite, you know the drill.
3. Burn
Lets start getting into the good matchups, with a less painful manabase we're coming out ahead here, drop your Thalia to draw a bolt, throw your finks down, trade aggressively and then throw down a scooze to scoop up your life total and your opponents cards. Save Dromoka's command to 2 for 1 an eidolon and a removal/damage spell. Post board bring in 3 Kor Firewalker again over Mindcensor and Gryff, bring in spellskites over 3 of your Arbiters, proceed to win step.
4. Affinity
Our game 1 isn't as laughably bad as it used to be, use Dromoka's command to snipe things off, land a Linvala ASAP, try to keep the board trimmed and use your Pridemages aggressively.
Game 2 side out (again) Mindcensors and Gryffs (they aren't our bad cards they're our flex slot, I'll explain more later) bring in Stony Silences, you can also cut a Liege for another Linvala if you really want/if they're big affinity. Mull aggressively for a Stony Silence (but not too aggressively).
5. Junk/Jund
We run 3 Wilt-Leaf Liege and 3 Smiters... If they drop a Lili it's a 3 mana edict 90% of the time, try to keep them off their mana, their base is painful and if you can punish them for it on top of it you can get ahead and win, there's not much of a board for this matchup, if it seems like they're running a full set of Souls + Tasigur + Goyf then RIP might be prudent, I'd advise it over Gryff and a pridemage, our Mindcensors do work here to make their fetches actively worse. For the Jund matchup just remember how relevant your Commands are.
6. GR Tron
Ha... Hahahahaha... If you need me to tell you how to play this matchup than you probably aren't meant for this deck, but here it goes, strip mine/ghost quarter their tron lands, stop them from searching their library, beat them down with creatures and don't overextend into pyroclasm. Game 2 bring in Stony Silences over Gryff, Linvala, and Wilf-Leaf, you can mull aggressively for them because they actually do a LOT of work to shut down Tron. Beat them down.
7. Bloom Titan
Hope they don't have a turn 2 or 3 kill, get down Leonin Arbiter, Path any titans that come out on 3 or 4, keep them off their land and win, game 2 is much the same, don't even bother boarding.
8. Twin
Here it is ladies and gentleman, the scariest match of our top 8 gauntlet, but actually no it's not really that bad anymore, keep them off double red, keep a pridemage on board, beat face, land a Hushwing Gryff in response to a Twin, keep up Dromoka's Command and or Path to Exile, you'll be ok. Post board bring in Linvala number 2, 3 Chokes, and 3 Spellskites, cut Finks, Scooze, and Lieges, yeah it sound scary to take out our big beaters against a legitimate tempo deck but this is where the resource denial gets REAL, drop a turn 2 Choke and watch them pick up their cards, get down an arbiter and some ghost quarters or tec edges to take care of all those pesky non-islands, you know the drill.
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Smiter
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Path to Exile
3 Dromoka's Command
Lands (22)
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
3 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
3 Choke
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
I made some adjustments, primarily that I cut the gryff and brought a bit more counterplay into the deck with Dromoka's command, in addition I cut an Eiganjo's castle and the Tec Edge to bring in a plains and a Flagstones, I've had some awkward runins with blood moon and control decks in general have been rough and are even worse when you stumble on mana.
If you wanna win against affinity, I sugest Creeping corrosion and engineered explosives
In my experience against Delver it's the one matchup that I genuinely can't find a solution for us winning against, it's more controlling of the board, has a faster clock, and generally goes bigger than us. It's a lot more susceptible to other decks than we are, but you'll find that controlling decks are this variants worst matchup. I suppose vials would be a solution to that but honestly I don't think there's any sideboard space for them and you need to get them on turn 1 for them to be relevant. It's a matchup that I personally am for the most part willing to concede that it is just bad.
What about a couple of Grand Abolisher in the board to go along with another copy of Choke? Voices seem good as well, and can probably take the place of the 2 Birds in the main.
Grand Abolisher seems really bad. If I'm playing Grixis Delver vs a deck like Hatebears with Voice, Smiter, Thrun and a lot of small blockers, I will probably take some counterspells for more removal...
But after reading the original post, he was talking about Grixis Control That's usually harder than Jeskai Control, since they have real removal (against Jeskai, being Bolt-proof is a good thing for Voice, Smiter, Finks, Wildwood, Thrun, or even Liege). They don't have any lifegain, so try to attack when you can.
I don't like Vial in Hatebears, against Control (the match that matters) it reduces your treat density and counters aren't really a problem, removal is.
Edit: I always play 4 Loxodon Smiter, it's good against one of the most played cards (Lightning Bolt), dodges counters, good vs discard, and it's a fast clock vs decks like Storm where those things don't matter.
I've seen Troll-Worship just beat UR decks, does Grixis-Control have anything for it?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Maybe it's just my opinion, but Troll+Worship is good when you don't want to lose (Storm, Affinity, decks that are 'the beatdown' according to Mike Flores). Playing Worship against control doesn't solve anything, they beat you by killing your dudes and countering your things (controlling the game :p), and then they kill you in some way but that doesn't matter. I would rather have Thrun+Choke than Thrun+Worship (or any good card vs Control, like Smiter, Finks, Voice, lands that do things, etc). Besides, they can always bounce Worship with Cryptic Command :/ (bouncing Choke is harder). Against control, you need to be aggresive and disruptive.
@Lincae: I like your list, but I don't like playing a lot of the same card... Maybe you could swap a couple of Stony Silence and a Kataki for a Creeping Corrosion/Fracturing Gust and 2 Engineered Explosives. I have found that Stony Silence does very little if they already equipped something or if they have an Etched Champion, and Kataki can be avoided with a lot of Nexi and Glimmervoid. The sweepers cost more, but it's game over if you drop one. Explosives helps in other random matchups too, like Infect, Burn, Tokens, Merfolk, Storm (hitting Ascensions and Empty the Warrens), etc. edit: and Delver too! since is popular right now
Ended up with wins against Twin, Collected Abzan, Infect x2, Burn, Tron, UW Control and losses to Jund and Burn for a 7-2 record and placing 15th out of approximately 275 players. The losses were both in three games; I never felt that the deck was outclassed, it just wasn't in the cards to get the second game win for the match.
Overall very happy with the list, with changes in the sideboard going forward. The damage prevention clause on Dromoka's Command most likely renders Mark of Asylum redundant / outclassed. I'll also most likely remove Worship for something like Phyrexian Unlife instead.
Congratulations! Can you post your decklist?
2 Hushwing Gryff
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Restoration Angel
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Plains
1 Gavony Township
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
1 Rancor
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Choke
1 Mark of Asylum
1 Stony Silence
1 Worship
1 Celestial Purge
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I have a few questions:
- No Kitchen Finks? Is Command enough to deal with burn?
- I'm guessing that the Melira is against Infect, how was it? Don't you feel that another Explosives can do some work against another decks too? (I like versatility, but Melira can only be used in that matchup)
- The BSA+Batterskull package is just for BGx? Do you use it against Burn too?
I do the following (typically) against Burn. I've found that Kitchen Finks against them is good and certainly an option but my sideboard slots are limited since I like to have a lot of singletons and overlaps where possible. The key that I've found to beating burn is not so much lifegain (although it definitely helps) but killing their creatures and having larger threats to close out a game quicker. The Burn decks nowadays tend to hurt themselves with their Naya manabases, always thinking their life total just matters less than yours - which in many cases is definitely true. The key card I try to neutralize as soon as possible is Eidolon of the Great Revel since obviously it allows them to keep the pressure on when they run out of cards and where Engineered Explosives, Dromoka's Command, and Qasali Pridemage do a lot of work. Additionally the "trick" of putting 4 total mana but only 2 colors in to the explosives saves on the Eidolon damage but still allows you to blow it up.
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Worship
1 Celestial Purge
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Hushwing Gryff
4 Leonin Arbiter
Regarding Melira and infect - I've found that the matchup is historically one of my worst and since Melira essentially neuters it I was willing to dedicate one slot to a single matchup. You can always gain life against most agro deck but until they reprint Leeches, poison stays. The ability of infect to protect its creatures with Vines of Vastwood allows them to keep their stuff alive easier than most decks so I liked having the trump available. She definitely won a non-zero amount of games this weekend.
4 collected company
4 loxodon smiter
2 mirran crusader
2 aven Mindcensor
4 voice of resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 path to exile
4 leonin arbiter
3 scavenging ooze
2 birds of Paradise
4 noble hierarch
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 temple garden
3 horizon canopy
3 forest
2 Plains
4 qhost quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Temple Garden
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Gavony Township
1 Stirring Wildwood
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Aven Mindcensor
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Collected Company
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Rest In Peace
2 Choke
2 Dromoka's Command
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Baneslayer Angel
I cut down to 3 Collected Company because it felt that I was always getting clogged with multiple copies, so I switched one for a Dromoka's Command. I'm not sure if Gaddock Teeg is going to stay in the sideboard, if he doesn't stay he'll get switched for a Thalia. I don't have access to Noble Hierarch or the funds to obtain them, so I'm going with Birds and Pilgrim until I can get some.
Post FNM EDIT
ended up going 3-0, however I did not face the previously mentioned decks. Instead I faced Dragons (standard player signed up for Modern so it would fire off. 2-0), Jund (2-0), and BW Tokens (2-0). The Dragons matchup I didnt really get to see much because of some awful luck on his part. Jund ended up in a stalemate for a few turns in game 1 where he had Liliana of the Veil with 1 counter and no creatures on field and I had Wilt-Leaf Liege in hand but no third G/W mana to cast him. It eventually broke when he gambled on a Dark Confidant and died to revealing Huntmaster of the Fells. Game 2 he couldnt get a second B/R mana due to Leonin Arbiter and Ghost Quarter and he eventually died to a Liege empowered swing. BW Tokens game 1 was a continuous one-up contest that ended with double Wilt-Leaf Liege pumped creatures swinging for lethal. Game 2 he got an early lead thanks to a timely Tidehollow Sculler and Lingering Souls, but once again Wilt-Leaf Liege was the power boost I needed to take him down.
I'm looking to make the transition from Mono-White D&T to GW Hatebears.
My most difficult decision is the mana base. How many green sources do most Hatebears decks reliably need? I understand the power of Horizon Canopy but I think it might be a little out of my budget to grab a whole playset of right now.
Any other thoughts on the mana base? I've seen people play 2-4 Stirring Wildwood, some Brushland and occasionally Sunpetal Grove with Temple Garden and Razorverge Thicket being auto includes.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo