I've been thinking that the 25 land no-talisman build is much better positioned in a world where we're playing 2-drop removal spells that we likely want to cast on curve like Spatial Contortion. The likelihood if you're playing contortion is that you're a lot less likely to want to tap out on turn 2 -- and you really only were likely to do that against a naarrow number of decks anyway.
So pretty sure I'll be trying the 25 land build going forward myself, which shaves at least one slot for a contortion (-3 talismans +2 lands).
Solemns just feel outclassed by Thought-knot, or even just getting back more repeals/remands. I do wonder if going up more blue sources and playing the full 4 snapcasters might be right, if we're running more spells. I might experiment with that a little.
Snapcaster + Spatial contortion feels very powerful--lots of times you can contortion a creature and block, treating snapcaster like a dismember.
I also think Batterskull is very well situated -- Kolaghan's command is going to see a lot less play, spell is just too damned slow for the emerging meta.
How are you guys on Kozilek and Thought-Knot? I feel like they would both be amazing in the deck (the big K for sure but TK seems sweet). This was definitely a good set for Mono-U.
EDIT: Actually just found the discussion earlier, no need to retread unless you have some new testing results
I don't agree that Kolaghan's Commands will see less play, but that was never a good argument against Batterskull in our Tron+Academy Ruins deck anyway.
I didn't cut specific cards, I just rebuilt the deck with the new cards. I might miss the third Repeal, but it's been years since I ran four remand in this deck.
I cut Sundering titan and the snapcaster from the 75, added Kozilek and though knot seer.
Added eye of Ugin and the legendary swamp thing in over a couple of islands.
shaved repeals for spatial contortion
Still running 2 chalice main and 2 chalice sideboard, that card is just so ******* good.
Didn't play a whole lot but preliminary testings looks really good on the thought-knot seer, fetching the eye instead of a tron piece and casting this bad boy for 2 is amazing. Only played the Kozilek once but it didn't matter because of how much I was winning already, so far it is a little bit worst than the sundering titan just because it's not an artifact for thirst.
So, I have this rather stock build from a few months ago. Haven't played with it much since I've been rather busy. Is this still anywhere near what people are running? Or is my list horribly outdated? I've seen that black eldrazi has gained popularity and I'm curious how we deal with cards that activate abilities on the cast as well. That seems like it makes remand even worse than it already was before, keeping in mind its low performance vs aggro.
this is what i'm running currently
few observations:
- Spatial Contortion is a godsend, it is the best removal we can have, currently i'm considering leaving only 1 Dismember in the sideboard
- Chalice of the Void can singlehandedly destroy whole older decks - although it has problems with the new mono-B eldrazi
- Sea Gate Wreckage can help in those long drawn-out matches, previously i had Blighted Cataract in it's spot, but not needing U to activate it, really helps. - one interesting scenario i managed was casting my last Remand, while it was on the stack, drew another card from wreckage, then drew the card from Remand
- Emrakul and Eye of Ugin in Sideboard is useful for cases, when the match get REALLY drawn out, most against URx (from my experience) or let's say Taking turns as few people expect it
my only question now is that do we REALLY need any Dismember at all?
i find myself rarely sideing it in, and i rather have rhinos and Tasigurs countered, than letting them an activation - the only other target i could see is Celestial Colonnade.
are there other serious targets?
this is what i'm running currently
few observations:
- Spatial Contortion is a godsend, it is the best removal we can have, currently i'm considering leaving only 1 Dismember in the sideboard
- Chalice of the Void can singlehandedly destroy whole older decks - although it has problems with the new mono-B eldrazi
- Sea Gate Wreckage can help in those long drawn-out matches, previously i had Blighted Cataract in it's spot, but not needing U to activate it, really helps. - one interesting scenario i managed was casting my last Remand, while it was on the stack, drew another card from wreckage, then drew the card from Remand
- Emrakul and Eye of Ugin in Sideboard is useful for cases, when the match get REALLY drawn out, most against URx (from my experience) or let's say Taking turns as few people expect it
my only question now is that do we REALLY need any Dismember at all?
i find myself rarely sideing it in, and i rather have rhinos and Tasigurs countered, than letting them an activation - the only other target i could see is Celestial Colonnade.
are there other serious targets?
I've found Tolaria West to be quite lackluster in testing. It's very slow, and when it is in your starting hand it is really frustrating. I used to run it but I don't anymore. Also, I can see why you might have Fabricate to search for Baterskull or Oblivion Stone, but I do not think it is wise to use Fabricate in this meta. It might add consistency to change batterskull to Wurmcoil and Fabricate for Treasure Mage. In an aggro meta, the Treasure Mage will stall for an extra turn allowing you to play the higher CMC Wurmcoil Engine. Treasure Mage can still find Platinum angel or Mindslaver at the same cost as Fabricate, but it leaves a body behind. I've found that against aggro, it's often better to land an early Wurmcoil rather than an Oblivion Stone. Taking the time to search for Oblivion Ring does not seem very strong either. That means that without Tron you're playing turn 3 Fabricate, turn 4 Oblivion Stone, and turn 5 cracking it. If you have the Tron to crack it immediately, playing a Wurmcoil seems better, as the lifelink really helps stabilize. Also, I rarely have an empty hand as there are many card draw spells or cards that replace themselves. Sea Gate Wreckage seems very weak here, useless in almost all games. It would be better to hold cards in hand (bluff counters or discard fodder for thirst) instead of trying to empty it to activate Wreckage. Also, you could then use the slot for an Extra island or ghost quarter which helps in several matchups (Tron, any matchup with Inkmoth).
Although this is from my own viewing, of the games I have seen and read about with the new Eldrazi additions of Kozilek and Thought-Knot Seer, I am seeing this deck going in two different directions. People have been both successful and hurt by replacing utility artifacts for the new additions, but the negatives seem to be more overwhelming than the positives. Thirst for Knowledge has been shorted of fuel for players who have removed cards, even staple pieces, for additional lands and the new Eldrazi . Some I have seen have turned to Anticipate to counter that, though those decks looked more as blue versions of the black and black-white Eldrazi decks. Although I myself removed three Solemn Simulacrums to include three Spatial Contortions, I am still at fourteen artifacts, compared to a growing average of eight in decks. Is the deck splitting into two, one being the traditional artifact control deck, the other a new blue Eldrazi control deck? It is looking that way but as said this is only what I am seeing.
Also Spatial Contortion is the blessing this deck deserved. Attacking for nine damage with a Wurmcoil Engine feels pretty good aside from having a reliable early game removal source.
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I like control decks and have a bad habit of making anything into one, even if it's aggro or combo. Don't know why or how.
I run 4 Expedition Map, 3 Chalice of the Void, 1 Platinum Angel, 1 Mindslaver, 1 Oblivion Stone, 1 Wurmcoil Engine for 11 artifacts unless I'm missing something. Thirst is still good as a draw-3 discard-2 and Kozilek helps with card advantage as well.
Not running Thought-Knot Seer at the very least is nearly criminal in my opinion after testing so much with it.
I haven't been able to play or test with any of the new cards yet for lots of reasons. How many Thought-Knot Seers seems correct?
If this deck becomes very Eldrazi-centric with multiple Snaps in the main, the value of Anticipate seems to go up a lot for us as well, especially if we begin thinking of Thirst as largely a cards selection over CA spell.
Aside from the Thirst-Anticipate debate, the other issue I was told was that Academy Ruins seemed a dead card without knowing they could reliably use the Mindslaver lock, especially when they went for Eye of Ugin with Expedition Map over it. With Kozilek being a viable win condition on its own, is the Mindslaver combo even needed anymore when going the Eldrazi route? It could be taken out for new Ulamog, given that none of the creatures in the deck protect themselves. The casting ability would help against cards that can't be countered or destroyed. That makes use of Eye of Ugin more viable then just having three targets in Wurmcoil Engine, Platinum Angel, and Kozilek.
What I meant by cutting Mindslaver was as a way to go away from the general artifact design. I personally wouldn't, I like the card too much to give it up. Even a single use can win you the game, so I won't go down below 2.
But all this is to show that a separate deck build is breaking off from this one. The "Well-Oiled Machine" and Blue Eldrazi Tron are not the same. One keeps to the traditional game play, the other is its own style.
Yes, and I would argue that the new style is significantly better because it lets you actually beat RG Tron again and gives you much more game against aggressive decks. Thought-Knot Seer is insane. I'm thinking about cutting my Treasure Mage for a Fabricate, but I'm not sure yet. Right now, it only finds Mindslaver, Wurmcoil, and Platinum Angel.
Eye of Ugin is a late-game win condition and it does produce mana alongside Urborg. I might run Sundering Titan in the board, but it's mostly worse than Newlamog. I've had to mulligan one hand so far because it had tron land + Eye + map where any other land would have made the hand good, but I've played a few hundred games with the new lists.
What I meant by cutting Mindslaver was as a way to go away from the general artifact design. I personally wouldn't, I like the card too much to give it up. Even a single use can win you the game, so I won't go down below 2.
But all this is to show that a separate deck build is breaking off from this one. The "Well-Oiled Machine" and Blue Eldrazi Tron are not the same. One keeps to the traditional game play, the other is its own style.
I don't think it's much different to be honest. The big change is you'll be tapping out on 4 for TKS on a reasonable occasion, but it still hits the biggest threat in hand. Overall it still plays the same amount of counterspells.
@cbgirardo: I've been testing your list, and I'm not entirely sold on chalice. Obviously you feel like a genius for Burn if you run MD (and affinity I suppose) but it also is normally on 1 and destroys map draws, which would often be amazing to go fetch a ruins or eye. I just don't know if the value is there for it MD when it kinda gimps your main gameplan. Overall I'm really enjoying the list though.
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Semi-retired Lantern Player. I try to get out to play every once in awhile!
Map comes down on turn 1, Chalice on turn 2. If you draw later maps, they're Thirst fodder. Cutting off 4 cards from our deck and 20+ from theirs is fine by me.
I actually have been streaming to small groups of people on Hangouts. OGW isn't yet available online, I'm waiting on rebuilding blue tron there until it is. I played a bit with Collected Company yesterday (3-1 daily, 7-3 overall counting league matches).
List was posted last page I think but here it is again:
Maindeck Chalices are as much for the Thirst artifact count as they are for the oops, I win moments. Chalice on 4 still GG's Scapeshift if you can resolve it.
Sideboarding is pretty straightforward. I bring in a bunch of cards against the value/company green decks, otherwise sideboarding is pretty minimal (2-3 cards in and out) with Chalices making everything much easier. In most matchups, I either take out only Chalice or only Remand.
This discussion has happened several times, but to quickly recap:
Chalice on 0 is very good against:
Living End
Ad Nauseam (stops Pact of Negation)
Chalice on 1 is very good against:
RG Tron (hits 15-19 cards)
Burn
Infect
Affinity
Bogles
Decks with Path to Exile
Storm
Ad Nauseam (stops Angel's Grace)
Chalice on 2 is very good against:
Burn
Affinity
Storm (game winning)
Chalice on 3 is very good against:
Ad Nauseam (game winning)
So re: Spatial Contortion
I've been thinking that the 25 land no-talisman build is much better positioned in a world where we're playing 2-drop removal spells that we likely want to cast on curve like Spatial Contortion. The likelihood if you're playing contortion is that you're a lot less likely to want to tap out on turn 2 -- and you really only were likely to do that against a naarrow number of decks anyway.
So pretty sure I'll be trying the 25 land build going forward myself, which shaves at least one slot for a contortion (-3 talismans +2 lands).
Solemns just feel outclassed by Thought-knot, or even just getting back more repeals/remands. I do wonder if going up more blue sources and playing the full 4 snapcasters might be right, if we're running more spells. I might experiment with that a little.
Snapcaster + Spatial contortion feels very powerful--lots of times you can contortion a creature and block, treating snapcaster like a dismember.
I also think Batterskull is very well situated -- Kolaghan's command is going to see a lot less play, spell is just too damned slow for the emerging meta.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
EDIT: Actually just found the discussion earlier, no need to retread unless you have some new testing results
I didn't cut specific cards, I just rebuilt the deck with the new cards. I might miss the third Repeal, but it's been years since I ran four remand in this deck.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Added eye of Ugin and the legendary swamp thing in over a couple of islands.
shaved repeals for spatial contortion
Still running 2 chalice main and 2 chalice sideboard, that card is just so ******* good.
Didn't play a whole lot but preliminary testings looks really good on the thought-knot seer, fetching the eye instead of a tron piece and casting this bad boy for 2 is amazing. Only played the Kozilek once but it didn't matter because of how much I was winning already, so far it is a little bit worst than the sundering titan just because it's not an artifact for thirst.
http://deckstats.net/deck-8940565-5b56d0253e9e1f28a79f08d36d235162.html
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
1x Academy Ruins
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Island
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
3x Snow-Covered Island
1x Tolaria West
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
Creature (4)
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Treasure Mage
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Condescend
1x Cyclonic Rift
4x Remand
4x Repeal
2x Spatial Contortion
1x Spell Burst
4x Thirst for Knowledge
Artifact (10)
1x Batterskull
2x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
2x Mindslaver
1x Oblivion Stone
Sorcery (1)
1x Fabricate
3x AEtherize
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Dismember
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Spatial Contortion
1x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
1x Spellskite
this is what i'm running currently
few observations:
- Spatial Contortion is a godsend, it is the best removal we can have, currently i'm considering leaving only 1 Dismember in the sideboard
- Chalice of the Void can singlehandedly destroy whole older decks - although it has problems with the new mono-B eldrazi
- Sea Gate Wreckage can help in those long drawn-out matches, previously i had Blighted Cataract in it's spot, but not needing U to activate it, really helps. - one interesting scenario i managed was casting my last Remand, while it was on the stack, drew another card from wreckage, then drew the card from Remand
- Emrakul and Eye of Ugin in Sideboard is useful for cases, when the match get REALLY drawn out, most against URx (from my experience) or let's say Taking turns as few people expect it
my only question now is that do we REALLY need any Dismember at all?
i find myself rarely sideing it in, and i rather have rhinos and Tasigurs countered, than letting them an activation - the only other target i could see is Celestial Colonnade.
are there other serious targets?
I've found Tolaria West to be quite lackluster in testing. It's very slow, and when it is in your starting hand it is really frustrating. I used to run it but I don't anymore. Also, I can see why you might have Fabricate to search for Baterskull or Oblivion Stone, but I do not think it is wise to use Fabricate in this meta. It might add consistency to change batterskull to Wurmcoil and Fabricate for Treasure Mage. In an aggro meta, the Treasure Mage will stall for an extra turn allowing you to play the higher CMC Wurmcoil Engine. Treasure Mage can still find Platinum angel or Mindslaver at the same cost as Fabricate, but it leaves a body behind. I've found that against aggro, it's often better to land an early Wurmcoil rather than an Oblivion Stone. Taking the time to search for Oblivion Ring does not seem very strong either. That means that without Tron you're playing turn 3 Fabricate, turn 4 Oblivion Stone, and turn 5 cracking it. If you have the Tron to crack it immediately, playing a Wurmcoil seems better, as the lifelink really helps stabilize. Also, I rarely have an empty hand as there are many card draw spells or cards that replace themselves. Sea Gate Wreckage seems very weak here, useless in almost all games. It would be better to hold cards in hand (bluff counters or discard fodder for thirst) instead of trying to empty it to activate Wreckage. Also, you could then use the slot for an Extra island or ghost quarter which helps in several matchups (Tron, any matchup with Inkmoth).
Also Spatial Contortion is the blessing this deck deserved. Attacking for nine damage with a Wurmcoil Engine feels pretty good aside from having a reliable early game removal source.
Not running Thought-Knot Seer at the very least is nearly criminal in my opinion after testing so much with it.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
If this deck becomes very Eldrazi-centric with multiple Snaps in the main, the value of Anticipate seems to go up a lot for us as well, especially if we begin thinking of Thirst as largely a cards selection over CA spell.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
But all this is to show that a separate deck build is breaking off from this one. The "Well-Oiled Machine" and Blue Eldrazi Tron are not the same. One keeps to the traditional game play, the other is its own style.
Eye of Ugin is a late-game win condition and it does produce mana alongside Urborg. I might run Sundering Titan in the board, but it's mostly worse than Newlamog. I've had to mulligan one hand so far because it had tron land + Eye + map where any other land would have made the hand good, but I've played a few hundred games with the new lists.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
I don't think it's much different to be honest. The big change is you'll be tapping out on 4 for TKS on a reasonable occasion, but it still hits the biggest threat in hand. Overall it still plays the same amount of counterspells.
@cbgirardo: I've been testing your list, and I'm not entirely sold on chalice. Obviously you feel like a genius for Burn if you run MD (and affinity I suppose) but it also is normally on 1 and destroys map draws, which would often be amazing to go fetch a ruins or eye. I just don't know if the value is there for it MD when it kinda gimps your main gameplan. Overall I'm really enjoying the list though.
I actually have been streaming to small groups of people on Hangouts. OGW isn't yet available online, I'm waiting on rebuilding blue tron there until it is. I played a bit with Collected Company yesterday (3-1 daily, 7-3 overall counting league matches).
List was posted last page I think but here it is again:
5 Island
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures: 9
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Treasure Mage
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Condescend
4 Expedition Map
2 Repeal
3 Remand
3 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
3 Dismember
2 Ætherize
2 Hibernation
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Squelch
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Burst
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Maindeck Chalices are as much for the Thirst artifact count as they are for the oops, I win moments. Chalice on 4 still GG's Scapeshift if you can resolve it.
Sideboarding is pretty straightforward. I bring in a bunch of cards against the value/company green decks, otherwise sideboarding is pretty minimal (2-3 cards in and out) with Chalices making everything much easier. In most matchups, I either take out only Chalice or only Remand.
This discussion has happened several times, but to quickly recap:
Chalice on 0 is very good against:
Living End
Ad Nauseam (stops Pact of Negation)
Chalice on 1 is very good against:
RG Tron (hits 15-19 cards)
Burn
Infect
Affinity
Bogles
Decks with Path to Exile
Storm
Ad Nauseam (stops Angel's Grace)
Chalice on 2 is very good against:
Burn
Affinity
Storm (game winning)
Chalice on 3 is very good against:
Ad Nauseam (game winning)
Chalice on 4 is very good against:
Scapeshift
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
And anything running Cryptic Command,
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