Don't think Lotus Bloom is the card for us. It would make it into a different, more big-mana oriented, deck. I feel like a lot of U-Tron players undervalue Snapcasters because we have a hard time achieving double blue sources early on. The card is great for bringing card advantage AND consistency. It also allows us to block at instance speed. On the same note, I feel like Nimble Obsturctionist is also undervalued. I can't think of much else from top of my head, but cards that gives us more choices at the cost of adding 1CMC like Supreme Will are very good for us.
Serum vision is a no good because of the chalices we play that usually go on 1 (this is also why we don't play 1 mana counter spells as much like spell snare, dispel, etc).
Anticipate is a superior serum visons for us because our issue isn't manacost, but U mana. I dont think nimble bird is good because neither of its modes is what we're looking for.
If Remands are bad for you right now, replace them with mana leaks, spatials or anything else with similiar cmc. Snapcaster might actually be the best option. The deck is actually very consistent because TFK and Condescend are OP. If that isn't enough for you, jam a Gifts in there just for value. I think what you're actually looking for is speed or ways to stablize against fast decks. Silent Arbiter is an MVP for me in that regard. I call it baby the Platinum Angel. You can even run dumb cards like Steel Wall
I don't see Nimble as being a viable option either. Its counter mode is too narrow and the cycle cost for one is too high. The cost of the card and its abilities, relative to other things, like Snapcaster, especially, is subpar.
As for the remands, I agree with the analysis of them being useless to an extent. In early game, Remand is a star. In mid/late game, it tapers off quickly. However, by that point, it becomes a finesse issue. By that, I mean knowing the tricks of the deck and interactions you can use that aren't the direct route the card was meant for. A prime example would be: late game remand v. another control deck where you go to condescend, supreme will, or w/e one of their spells; they counter that, you remand your counter; this causes their counter to fizzle and your counter to hit; all the while, you draw a card and trade 2 counters for 2 counters and actually counter w/e they were casting, putting you ahead.
The direct counter approach of remand (i.e. just head on countering your opponent's spells) is often quite weak, but the creative utility power of remand is high.
The same goes for repeal.
The biggest hurdle for my UTron play quality has been the "creative" lines of play.
okoSheep do u squeeze Silent Arbiter in ur Main or SB?
How important is Spreading Seas for all of u?
I cut mine recently to get some more Negate amd Gravehate insted.
currently my sb is:
2 chalice (1 main)
2 extraction
1 gravediggers cage
2 negate
1 mindbreak trap
2 ...uh forgot the name bottlegnome-solemn-fox
2 dismember
1 spaical (2main)
2 hyrcals recall
I feel that Seas is important for us in certain matchups (Every Tron MU, Valakut, Humans..), I think it affects a lot more MU´s than Hurkyls for example. I dont play any Hurkyls in my Sideboard actually - because it is just needed against affinity - and even that does not win us the game.
I don´t really like cards in SB which are just raelly good for one matchup.. and I dont consider Lantern to be relevant for Hurkyls because the matchup is good for us anyway.
Hey dudes... Mono U tron got 3rd in the modern challenge on magic online this past weekend. (could have been someone we know. cough cough). I think darkx a few posts ago hit the nail on the head. It is very hard to replace 90% of the slots because they really are giving you the absolute maximum value possible in many situations throughout magical games. Not to inflate my ego but I can safely say that this deck hasn't changed a whole lot over the past 5 years and yet we've withstood the test of time. I still manage to win a LOT more than I lose with numerous variants of this masterpiece. But cutting cards in the main is gonna be very hard to due because every card has it's reason for being there. Remands are bad right now on the draw game 1 against the fast decks in modern right now. Understandable. My counter argument is this: Remand is really good against any form of control, tron, and combo. Remand is also pretty good against most of the aggro decks when we are on the play. So to cut remand completely from the main is absolutely ridiculous. You don't know what you're playing against game 1 anyway so I'll take my chances that I am a superior thrower of the dice, or that you might know what your opponent is on before you even start.
You can't run cards like lotus bloom. I mean it's cool to think about but in reality look at what you do to yourself. In a format where the first 3 turns can dictate 90% of the matches I really don't want to toss a card away turn 1 and hope turn 4 the 3 Blue mana puts me over the top (best case scenario you have tron when bloom comes in). Losing that card and telling your opponent "hey this is what i'm doing" isn't how I like to roll. Pitch to TFK i can't argue with but other cards can do that as well. And how many do you run? gotta be 4x if you want it turn 1 suspended. Otherwise its unplayable. Then when you mulligan on the play or draw and have bloom in hand with the other random cards in our deck... Its gonna get ugly really fast. Ya can't run cards like blooms. You want cards that will accel you before turn 4 , replace themselves, stall your opponent while we continue to move onward, or game winners and back breakers.
There are about 5 slots that can tuned to your liking but messing with more is often going to lead you astray and to bad results. I built this thing from card 1 to 75 and have created several other decks back in my standard heyday and I'm not one to tell you what to actually do at the end of the day but this deck and slight variants can win at an insane clip / rate.
Quick note on consistency: I agree, some games we look like noobs and get destroyed, obliterated, dump trucked, demolished, bent over, whatever you want to say. But I win more games because there are so many lines and options in this deck that you don't even realize at first glance. And the tide can turn very quickly with this thing. Can blow peoples minds sometimes how we manage to steal games. But like I said when we lose sometimes we look really bad. I've always like talismans for consistency. Then i get told a blue source for 2 colorless mana isn't adding consistency because it "jacks up" your mulligan decisions. "Can't keep a hand with no blue lands and a talisman"... Why the hell not I always say. Gamblers gonna gamble. Spell snares Spell Pierces I use when the formats gets hyper aggro. The manabase is as smooth as we will ever get. But we've got enough colored sources to go with tron . Solemn helps as well. I guess my suggestion is to change a few slots in the main however you deem necessary and or try cards that will help early game or mulliganing issues.
okoSheep do u squeeze Silent Arbiter in ur Main or SB?
How important is Spreading Seas for all of u?
I cut mine recently to get some more Negate amd Gravehate insted.
currently my sb is:
2 chalice (1 main)
2 extraction
1 gravediggers cage
2 negate
1 mindbreak trap
2 ...uh forgot the name bottlegnome-solemn-fox
2 dismember
1 spaical (2main)
2 hyrcals recall
i run 1 in the side, i might go up to 2 depending on my store
spreading seas are okay, 2 in the sb is fine. 4 is way too many, you just don't have enough things to take out for it
shoktroopa has spoken You are right, There is no more than 5 flex slots - the list is really stock right now. This deck needs just smooth play and a patience.
Fast aggro is a challenge but there are still chances to win - chalice of the void, all removal spells from SB helps to go through.
I'm testing right now sorcerous spyglass in place of single pithing needle (I like the card against decks where I usualy put chalice on 1) - in my testing the "looking" part is really nice I found needle effect to be really important in my meta (gideon tribal / lilianas / other tron decks and esspecialy GW knight of reliquary ponza deck).
@spreading seas: I run 2 in SB and it is very good card even against 4/5 color decks (like humans or traverse shadow) messing with their mana really buy us some time.
Do You ever tried playing all is dust in SB? I'm lookin for some nice sweeper option against smth like Elves/5C humans - they are so fast :/
shoktroopa has spoken You are right, There is no more than 5 flex slots - the list is really stock right now. This deck needs just smooth play and a patience.
Fast aggro is a challenge but there are still chances to win - chalice of the void, all removal spells from SB helps to go through.
I'm testing right now sorcerous spyglass in place of single pithing needle (I like the card against decks where I usualy put chalice on 1) - in my testing the "looking" part is really nice I found needle effect to be really important in my meta (gideon tribal / lilianas / other tron decks and esspecialy GW knight of reliquary ponza deck).
@spreading seas: I run 2 in SB and it is very good card even against 4/5 color decks (like humans or traverse shadow) messing with their mana really buy us some time.
Do You ever tried playing all is dust in SB? I'm lookin for some nice sweeper option against smth like Elves/5C humans - they are so fast :/
Im currently playing 2 O-Stone´s and 2 Ugin´s main for that as my anti-aggro package.. works good for me tbh - but I have also thought about a 1/1 split of O-Stone/All is dust... wasn´t able to test with that yet.
shoktroopa has spoken You are right, There is no more than 5 flex slots - the list is really stock right now. This deck needs just smooth play and a patience.
Fast aggro is a challenge but there are still chances to win - chalice of the void, all removal spells from SB helps to go through.
I'm testing right now sorcerous spyglass in place of single pithing needle (I like the card against decks where I usualy put chalice on 1) - in my testing the "looking" part is really nice I found needle effect to be really important in my meta (gideon tribal / lilianas / other tron decks and esspecialy GW knight of reliquary ponza deck).
@spreading seas: I run 2 in SB and it is very good card even against 4/5 color decks (like humans or traverse shadow) messing with their mana really buy us some time.
Do You ever tried playing all is dust in SB? I'm lookin for some nice sweeper option against smth like Elves/5C humans - they are so fast :/
Im currently playing 2 O-Stone´s and 2 Ugin´s main for that as my anti-aggro package.. works good for me tbh - but I have also thought about a 1/1 split of O-Stone/All is dust... wasn´t able to test with that yet.
Tried All is Dust at a 1k event (around 80 players). It's very good. Nice option vs white decks that bring in Stony Silence or Humans with Meddling Mage.
It also comes a turn faster too, unless you risk dropping o-stone with 3 mana and blow it up later. Also could be flashed back with Snapcaster for value.
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Decks
Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
All those points are valid, but when you compare it to snapcaster, the bird looks pretty lackluster. Snapcaster is just far more powerful and versatile.
Hello fellow U-tron players,
Concerning Humans, do you think playing 2 Torpor Orb in side would do the trick?
I mean, I already play 2 repeal/1dismember/1contortion maindeck plus 2dismember/1contortion in sideboard, and 2 Oblivion Stone/2 Ugin/1 rift maindeck. That's already quite a few removals.
But I didn't play a lot against humans, and I'm a bit scared considering their 4 cavern/4 vial maindeck.
The orb would turn their deck into a grizzly bear.deck (minus mantis rider that is still a beater I guess...)
It also turns down my simulacrum/snapcaster/magus/gearhulk, and I find it hard to cut those bodies from the plan to fight against their threats...
What are your plans against Humans?
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"He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged."
Hello fellow U-tron players,
Concerning Humans, do you think playing 2 Torpor Orb in side would do the trick?
I mean, I already play 2 repeal/1dismember/1contortion maindeck plus 2dismember/1contortion in sideboard, and 2 Oblivion Stone/2 Ugin/1 rift maindeck. That's already quite a few removals.
But I didn't play a lot against humans, and I'm a bit scared considering their 4 cavern/4 vial maindeck.
The orb would turn their deck into a grizzly bear.deck (minus mantis rider that is still a beater I guess...)
It also turns down my simulacrum/snapcaster/magus/gearhulk, and I find it hard to cut those bodies from the plan to fight against their threats...
What are your plans against Humans?
Removals and sweepers. Torpor Orb is very interesting though, but what else would you bring it against? It feels a bit narrow unless you're literally facing Humans or Spell Quellers all the time. All is Dust has been pretty great for me and Repeal is very good especially during combat to delay the damage. I think playing a second Ugin seems like more and more viable
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Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
I could maybe side them in against coco along my graffsdigger cages, it could impact witnesses, persist creatures like finks and redcap would be less intimidating, but still, doesn't prevent them to go infinite mana or infinite scry value with vicera seer...
Against valakut, it doesn't impact anything except titan so I guess it's a no...
Against some UW heavy on snapcaster/clique/spell queller it could be worth it... But I don't expect to see a lot of those in GP Lyon...
Well, against hatebear, their creatures become regular bears. It diminish the impact of flickerwisp/TKS/thraben inspector/tidehollow skullers/angel.
I guess I could use the Torpor Orb against Hatebear and Humans mostly...
Could it be like 10% of the GP meta? I don't know, this number comes in mind when I look at MTG top 8, but you never know what to expect on a GP level event... Well I expect to see a lot of humans, but who knows?
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"He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged."
I do agree that it seems like the deck could be rethought, especially since I have been playing a lot of different archetypes recently (u tron still my favorite) I have come to really appreciate Thirst for knowledge, (and faithless looting) in modern. anyways, Remand may not be good, but stall/ cycle is important for how the deck works. thats part of the reason for playing gemstone caverns, to have 2 mana turn 1 on the draw to make remand more useful.
I do think we can learn from other modern decks... UW control, and Gx tron...
thoughts and ideas
UW tech.
spreading seas MB... the only viable option i can think of over remand. could also go up on field of ruin for mana disruption plan while we assemble the pieces.
MORE walking ballistas... did you see the G Tron pro tour list? 4x ballista. the card is great. we play tron. ive played 2.. maybe we should play more...
i think more snapcasters is also a good idea. ill follow this up with a list or two if anyone wants to test stuff out...
When I see the Re-Think discussion, I even might agree. However I think the deck is leaving "the budget friendly" seas more and more (as I posted a few weeks ago after my return to Magic, luckily I never sell my cards).
Just imho, wanted to express my feelings.
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Active player in years 1999-2004.
Mono U Draw & Go fan
Decks:
Modern - Mono U Tron, UR Delver
Legacy - UR Delver
Pauper - BGRUW Tron, Mono U Delver, Mono B Control
@Nubikau: Yea, I'm still on double ballista and double chalice of the void mainboard - ballista is just excellent for Our deck. I have to say, that Spreading seas idea is really hot - remand is really so-so nowdays, and seas is good tech from UW control (mana denial plan is real against many modern decks) and we still got a card - BIG +1 Nubikau!
@duigha: IMO the competetive mono-u tron wasn't ever budget friendly (at last 2 chalices, ugin, snapcaster) but the true is that budget versions of the deck got their chances for win (they are still decent on FNMs).
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Serum vision is a no good because of the chalices we play that usually go on 1 (this is also why we don't play 1 mana counter spells as much like spell snare, dispel, etc).
Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
Sure.
I am currently playing my list i´ve played in Frankfurt earlier this year.
Please check it out at post number #13562.
Greets
Max
UTron
If Remands are bad for you right now, replace them with mana leaks, spatials or anything else with similiar cmc. Snapcaster might actually be the best option. The deck is actually very consistent because TFK and Condescend are OP. If that isn't enough for you, jam a Gifts in there just for value. I think what you're actually looking for is speed or ways to stablize against fast decks. Silent Arbiter is an MVP for me in that regard. I call it baby the Platinum Angel. You can even run dumb cards like Steel Wall
I don't see Nimble as being a viable option either. Its counter mode is too narrow and the cycle cost for one is too high. The cost of the card and its abilities, relative to other things, like Snapcaster, especially, is subpar.
As for the remands, I agree with the analysis of them being useless to an extent. In early game, Remand is a star. In mid/late game, it tapers off quickly. However, by that point, it becomes a finesse issue. By that, I mean knowing the tricks of the deck and interactions you can use that aren't the direct route the card was meant for. A prime example would be: late game remand v. another control deck where you go to condescend, supreme will, or w/e one of their spells; they counter that, you remand your counter; this causes their counter to fizzle and your counter to hit; all the while, you draw a card and trade 2 counters for 2 counters and actually counter w/e they were casting, putting you ahead.
The direct counter approach of remand (i.e. just head on countering your opponent's spells) is often quite weak, but the creative utility power of remand is high.
The same goes for repeal.
The biggest hurdle for my UTron play quality has been the "creative" lines of play.
How important is Spreading Seas for all of u?
I cut mine recently to get some more Negate amd Gravehate insted.
currently my sb is:
2 chalice (1 main)
2 extraction
1 gravediggers cage
2 negate
1 mindbreak trap
2 ...uh forgot the name bottlegnome-solemn-fox
2 dismember
1 spaical (2main)
2 hyrcals recall
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I don´t really like cards in SB which are just raelly good for one matchup.. and I dont consider Lantern to be relevant for Hurkyls because the matchup is good for us anyway.
Greets
Max
UTron
You can't run cards like lotus bloom. I mean it's cool to think about but in reality look at what you do to yourself. In a format where the first 3 turns can dictate 90% of the matches I really don't want to toss a card away turn 1 and hope turn 4 the 3 Blue mana puts me over the top (best case scenario you have tron when bloom comes in). Losing that card and telling your opponent "hey this is what i'm doing" isn't how I like to roll. Pitch to TFK i can't argue with but other cards can do that as well. And how many do you run? gotta be 4x if you want it turn 1 suspended. Otherwise its unplayable. Then when you mulligan on the play or draw and have bloom in hand with the other random cards in our deck... Its gonna get ugly really fast. Ya can't run cards like blooms. You want cards that will accel you before turn 4 , replace themselves, stall your opponent while we continue to move onward, or game winners and back breakers.
There are about 5 slots that can tuned to your liking but messing with more is often going to lead you astray and to bad results. I built this thing from card 1 to 75 and have created several other decks back in my standard heyday and I'm not one to tell you what to actually do at the end of the day but this deck and slight variants can win at an insane clip / rate.
Quick note on consistency: I agree, some games we look like noobs and get destroyed, obliterated, dump trucked, demolished, bent over, whatever you want to say. But I win more games because there are so many lines and options in this deck that you don't even realize at first glance. And the tide can turn very quickly with this thing. Can blow peoples minds sometimes how we manage to steal games. But like I said when we lose sometimes we look really bad. I've always like talismans for consistency. Then i get told a blue source for 2 colorless mana isn't adding consistency because it "jacks up" your mulligan decisions. "Can't keep a hand with no blue lands and a talisman"... Why the hell not I always say. Gamblers gonna gamble. Spell snares Spell Pierces I use when the formats gets hyper aggro. The manabase is as smooth as we will ever get. But we've got enough colored sources to go with tron . Solemn helps as well. I guess my suggestion is to change a few slots in the main however you deem necessary and or try cards that will help early game or mulliganing issues.
i run 1 in the side, i might go up to 2 depending on my store
spreading seas are okay, 2 in the sb is fine. 4 is way too many, you just don't have enough things to take out for it
Fast aggro is a challenge but there are still chances to win - chalice of the void, all removal spells from SB helps to go through.
I'm testing right now sorcerous spyglass in place of single pithing needle (I like the card against decks where I usualy put chalice on 1) - in my testing the "looking" part is really nice I found needle effect to be really important in my meta (gideon tribal / lilianas / other tron decks and esspecialy GW knight of reliquary ponza deck).
@spreading seas: I run 2 in SB and it is very good card even against 4/5 color decks (like humans or traverse shadow) messing with their mana really buy us some time.
Do You ever tried playing all is dust in SB? I'm lookin for some nice sweeper option against smth like Elves/5C humans - they are so fast :/
Im currently playing 2 O-Stone´s and 2 Ugin´s main for that as my anti-aggro package.. works good for me tbh - but I have also thought about a 1/1 split of O-Stone/All is dust... wasn´t able to test with that yet.
UTron
Tried All is Dust at a 1k event (around 80 players). It's very good. Nice option vs white decks that bring in Stony Silence or Humans with Meddling Mage.
It also comes a turn faster too, unless you risk dropping o-stone with 3 mana and blow it up later. Also could be flashed back with Snapcaster for value.
Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
Concerning Humans, do you think playing 2 Torpor Orb in side would do the trick?
I mean, I already play 2 repeal/1dismember/1contortion maindeck plus 2dismember/1contortion in sideboard, and 2 Oblivion Stone/2 Ugin/1 rift maindeck. That's already quite a few removals.
But I didn't play a lot against humans, and I'm a bit scared considering their 4 cavern/4 vial maindeck.
The orb would turn their deck into a grizzly bear.deck (minus mantis rider that is still a beater I guess...)
It also turns down my simulacrum/snapcaster/magus/gearhulk, and I find it hard to cut those bodies from the plan to fight against their threats...
What are your plans against Humans?
Removals and sweepers. Torpor Orb is very interesting though, but what else would you bring it against? It feels a bit narrow unless you're literally facing Humans or Spell Quellers all the time. All is Dust has been pretty great for me and Repeal is very good especially during combat to delay the damage. I think playing a second Ugin seems like more and more viable
Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
Against valakut, it doesn't impact anything except titan so I guess it's a no...
Against some UW heavy on snapcaster/clique/spell queller it could be worth it... But I don't expect to see a lot of those in GP Lyon...
Well, against hatebear, their creatures become regular bears. It diminish the impact of flickerwisp/TKS/thraben inspector/tidehollow skullers/angel.
I guess I could use the Torpor Orb against Hatebear and Humans mostly...
Could it be like 10% of the GP meta? I don't know, this number comes in mind when I look at MTG top 8, but you never know what to expect on a GP level event... Well I expect to see a lot of humans, but who knows?
I do agree that it seems like the deck could be rethought, especially since I have been playing a lot of different archetypes recently (u tron still my favorite) I have come to really appreciate Thirst for knowledge, (and faithless looting) in modern. anyways, Remand may not be good, but stall/ cycle is important for how the deck works. thats part of the reason for playing gemstone caverns, to have 2 mana turn 1 on the draw to make remand more useful.
I do think we can learn from other modern decks... UW control, and Gx tron...
thoughts and ideas
UW tech.
spreading seas MB... the only viable option i can think of over remand. could also go up on field of ruin for mana disruption plan while we assemble the pieces.
MORE walking ballistas... did you see the G Tron pro tour list? 4x ballista. the card is great. we play tron. ive played 2.. maybe we should play more...
i think more snapcasters is also a good idea. ill follow this up with a list or two if anyone wants to test stuff out...
1 Repeal
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Spatial Contortion
4 Expedition Map
1 Academy Ruins
1 Remand
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Spreading Seas
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Tolaria West
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Anticipate
1 Karn Liberated
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Supreme Will
2 Mindslaver
2 Walking Ballista
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Snapcaster Mage
5 Island
1 Dismember
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Gemstone Caverns
2 Field of Ruin
1 Spatial Contortion
1 All Is Dust
2 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gut Shot
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gemstone Caverns
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Spreading Seas
1 Spell Snare
Just imho, wanted to express my feelings.
Mono U Draw & Go fan
Decks:
Modern - Mono U Tron, UR Delver
Legacy - UR Delver
Pauper - BGRUW Tron, Mono U Delver, Mono B Control
@duigha: IMO the competetive mono-u tron wasn't ever budget friendly (at last 2 chalices, ugin, snapcaster) but the true is that budget versions of the deck got their chances for win (they are still decent on FNMs).