I was thinking again, about the talisman vs lands and as many of you know i am not fan of talisman but just for the sake of trying i swap 1 land for 1 talisman and after testing it i notice no difference, because of this i decide to do the math to figure out what are the chances on lands vs talisman.
Assuming we want 2 lands on our opening hand the chances are:
25 lands: 87.7%
24 lands: 85.7%
23 lands: 83.4%
So the difference is just 2% per land of not having to mulligan. But not only the opening hand is important, the land drop every turn for at least 4 turns is important so we can play cards like Solemn Simulacrum on "curve".
Assuming we want to drop 1 land the first 4 turns the chances are:
So here we see a more significant chance increase of having at least 4 lands on our 4° upkeep.
So the difference between 24 and 25 lands is 2% better opening hands and 4% "better" 4° upkeep. But what about the situation where our opening hand consist of 1 land and 1 talisman?
So this problem will occur 1.4% ~ 1.6% of the time with is more rare than the chance of not having blue mana on the opening hand (usually auto mulligan)
9 blue sources: 29.9%
8 blue sources: 34.6%
Therefore i see no "real problem" running a copy of talisman instead of 1 land. But i think that talisman is a turn 3 play more than a turn 2 because it will leave us "tap" therefore vulnerable, specially on the play. So what we want is to have talisman turn 3 play it (ideally with a blue source open) and pass the turn. This way we have mana open to counter spells or bounce stuff.
Also i'am testing Walking Ballista and perhaps i'm bias, but i feel Hangarback Walker offers better early game presence and that is i think what we are looking for.
You literally show the evidence of how Talisman is worse than lands and then your conclusion is "therefore I see no problem with running Talisman over lands".
Yeah i mean is a trade more than a disadvantage. Because it is true that you have a "weakness" using talismans but also strengths, for me is a question of preference because the chances of it screwing is pretty low or at least equalizes the bad parts with the good that is the ability to ramp and another artifact to feed thirst for knowledge.
Therefore i see no "real problem" running a copy of talisman instead of 1 land. But i think that talisman is a turn 3 play more than a turn 2 because it will leave us "tap" therefore vulnerable, specially on the play. So what we want is to have talisman turn 3 play it (ideally with a blue source open) and pass the turn. This way we have mana open to counter spells or bounce stuff.
I agree its an ideal 3rd turn play. Lets assume though that you are at turn 2 and nothing you could cast other than Talisman, leave mana up as a bluff or cast it and get it done for stronger condescends later?
I think that we can't afford the life lose of fetch lands, specially against our worst enemy (aggro decks). In fact some times i found my self on the last 4 to 5 hp when the board finally get stabilize. Another argument is Blood Moon is pretty nasty and we already run 15+ non basic lands so is super annoying to deal with, now imagine with only 3 basics it will basically lock us out of the game.
never played against death's shadow before but i'm expecting to be seeing it often soon since 2 guys at my lgs had just picked it up, can you guys give some tips on how to play against it? do you consider it a bad matchup for us?
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
I litereially lost a game because I didn't play a tailismin on turn 2 (and cracked a map instead). I needed 4 mana on turn 3 to survive against elves.
I strugged against deaths shadow, ratchet bomb seemed good except that I was forced to pop it to be able to cast non creature spells in the face of stubbon denial. Then he had Kolighan's command (returning deaths shadow :/). Then they had the stubbon denial on my repeal. Your opening hand is pretty irrelavent against them since they will tear it apart anyway, just keep anything with lands, typically its all about top decking things.
Seems fine as a 1 of in some lists. Impulse is something I have wanted for a while(didn't bother with anticipate). It won't be getting any better than that I don't think.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Well, took Mono U Tron to a local modern night and went 4-0. I haven't written an event recap before but given that I did this with U Tron and not Abzan I figured it's worth sharing. My deck is really close to shoktroopa's 75.
Round 1 I played the mirror. Went how control mirrors usually go with a lot of draw, play land, pass. Game 1 looked like it was starting to go his way. I had Tron first but couldn't take advantage of it before he got it and drew into ghost quarter the dropped Wurmcoil. Fortunately I found a Platinum angel he couldn't remove and I slaver locked him. Game two he brought in spreading seas (which still aren't in my SB). He didn't really have anything else going for him though and I was able to slaver lock him again.
Round 2 was against UW Spirits. He was on a really budget build but had managed to aggro down a very much not budget abzan midrange during his round 1 so I thought that was kind of funny. Regardless, nothing really special in any of the games. I got him in 3 since he was on the play game 2 and managed to drop double discroll captains. Reflector Mage bouncing Sundering Titan was fun though.
Round 3 was against Eldrazi and Taxes. Game 1 went for 35 minutes since I found myself at 2 life unable to take a turn to bring back Wurmcoil or draw new cards since I was stuck just having to academy ruins my o-stone over and over to kill the creatures he kept playing. He bricked first though by drawing into land / no ghost quarter and so I was finaly able to draw and managed to luckily draw into a platinum angel and counter magic. Game 2 went a lot faster. He took a muligan and didn't really have any pressure. I don't actually remember but I think I won this with just straight creature beats.
Game 4 was against UB Tezzeret Control. The games were really in my favored since I couldn't care less about his ensnaring bridges and damnation. Just countered Tezzeret and hid behind counter magic and bounce. Game 1 I slavered him without academy ruins but was able to do enough damage that he couldn't recover the one extra turn he got before I did find ruins. Game two he dropped Tezzeret fast and beat my face in with 5/5 Welding Jars. Game 3 I had Tron fast and dropped an early Ugin. Ugin's ult drew me extra at least 3 extra Tron pieces, slaver, and academy ruins. I had repeal in hand to bounce the spellbomb he had out for the slaver lock.
Overall I was very happy with how the list preformed but definitely credit the lack of aggro in the room. I really think I'm going to try gearhulk over Titan though for a while. He's won me a few games but more often than not feels just kind of win-more. I also found I was siding him out a lot in games where I probably would have left a gearhulk in.
I probably do need a bit of extra GY hate, but dredge is somewhat light in my paper meta. I'm thinking of throwing in either a relic or two / a grafdiggers cage since the former can cantrip and help keep goyf small, and the latter also helps shut down snapcasters and kitchen finks combo. I might drop one of the summary dismissal
I usually prefer playing than speculating on cards to come... But I think this one gets more than 1 slot in the deck.
Extraction is more flexible while doing everything we want crypt to do - sometimes their casting the card is far scarier than the redundancy of a GY 'lock'
I've been running 2 Ugin and really enjoying it. While it's rough against eldrazi and affinity, I definitely like having them available. As for emrakul, I really don't see the point of having her when you have mindslaver. giving your opponent an extra turn really hurts as well, and you can't recur her with academy ruins. Basically, I'd just run a second mindslaver over emrakul, but you do you!
It sounds neat. You could do a million things with that but probably it doesn't solve any problem this deck has.
noob question, if we have a sundering titan in play, can we activate this multiple times copying the titan and thus also triggering its ETB effect multiple times to potentially blow up more lands?
not that i'm gonna run this, but just a rules question..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
It sounds neat. You could do a million things with that but probably it doesn't solve any problem this deck has.
noob question, if we have a sundering titan in play, can we activate this multiple times copying the titan and thus also triggering its ETB effect multiple times to potentially blow up more lands?
not that i'm gonna run this, but just a rules question..
Since it never enters play, you don't get etb abilities.
If you want to mess around with bouncing Sun Titan, go OG and use Crystal Shard
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
The deck at it's heart is a singleton deck. Like most 'silver bullet' becks we're focused on Jagging our opponents plan with a card they don't have an answer for. What this means is there's no reason to /not/ run 3 WC, if you are seeing rewards.
What there is though is a place for you to ask questions about your build/meta/decision making.
Why are you winning with WCE? Is there a lot of Burn/Aggro? Is it because you're not seeing the correct hate for it?
Every time you untap and swing is a turn you could be using to control that player during their next turn so you really need to ask 'are there situations where using mindslaver could have won the game while leaving less outs?'
It's pretty simple. Path has become less popular, lots of popular decks lose to WCE very hard (Grixis Shadow, EldraziTron). Mindslaver is 10 mana, WCE is 6. There was a time when people only played 1 WCE and people imo rightfully changed to 2 when the meta moved. In this meta I can see 3 WCE, but 2 seems fine to me as well.
Assuming we want 2 lands on our opening hand the chances are:
25 lands: 87.7%
24 lands: 85.7%
23 lands: 83.4%
So the difference is just 2% per land of not having to mulligan. But not only the opening hand is important, the land drop every turn for at least 4 turns is important so we can play cards like Solemn Simulacrum on "curve".
Assuming we want to drop 1 land the first 4 turns the chances are:
Going 1°
25 lands: 67.5%
24 lands: 63.1%
23 lands: 58.6%
Going 2°
25 lands: 76.5%
24 lands: 72.5%
23 lands: 68.2%
So here we see a more significant chance increase of having at least 4 lands on our 4° upkeep.
So the difference between 24 and 25 lands is 2% better opening hands and 4% "better" 4° upkeep. But what about the situation where our opening hand consist of 1 land and 1 talisman?
24 lands 1 talismans: 1.4%
23 lands 2 talismans: 1.6%
So this problem will occur 1.4% ~ 1.6% of the time with is more rare than the chance of not having blue mana on the opening hand (usually auto mulligan)
9 blue sources: 29.9%
8 blue sources: 34.6%
Therefore i see no "real problem" running a copy of talisman instead of 1 land. But i think that talisman is a turn 3 play more than a turn 2 because it will leave us "tap" therefore vulnerable, specially on the play. So what we want is to have talisman turn 3 play it (ideally with a blue source open) and pass the turn. This way we have mana open to counter spells or bounce stuff.
My new list:
1x Academy Ruins
1x Gemstone Caverns
1x Ghost Quarter
5x Island
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x River of Tears
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
Creature (8)
1x Platinum Angel
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Sundering Titan
1x Treasure Mage
1x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Condescend
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Epiphany at the Drownyard
1x Gifts Ungiven
2x Remand
1x Repeal
1x Spell Burst
4x Thirst for Knowledge
Artifact (12)
1x Batterskull
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Expedition Map
1x Mindslaver
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Talisman of Dominance
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sorcery (1)
1x Fabricate
1x Bottle Gnomes
1x Dismember
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Filigree Familiar
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Jester's Cap
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Spatial Contortion
1x Spellskite
1x Steel Wall
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Torpor Orb
Also i'am testing Walking Ballista and perhaps i'm bias, but i feel Hangarback Walker offers better early game presence and that is i think what we are looking for.
Last but not least regarding Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I think is strong not only because of cards like Dismember and Surgical Extraction but Sundering Titan allowing it to destroy Raging Ravine, Gavony Township and other important lands.
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
Okay.
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
I agree its an ideal 3rd turn play. Lets assume though that you are at turn 2 and nothing you could cast other than Talisman, leave mana up as a bluff or cast it and get it done for stronger condescends later?
running talismans: they're great!
not running talismans: also great!
what's the buzz?
—Seal inscription
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
—Seal inscription
I strugged against deaths shadow, ratchet bomb seemed good except that I was forced to pop it to be able to cast non creature spells in the face of stubbon denial. Then he had Kolighan's command (returning deaths shadow :/). Then they had the stubbon denial on my repeal. Your opening hand is pretty irrelavent against them since they will tear it apart anyway, just keep anything with lands, typically its all about top decking things.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Round 1 I played the mirror. Went how control mirrors usually go with a lot of draw, play land, pass. Game 1 looked like it was starting to go his way. I had Tron first but couldn't take advantage of it before he got it and drew into ghost quarter the dropped Wurmcoil. Fortunately I found a Platinum angel he couldn't remove and I slaver locked him. Game two he brought in spreading seas (which still aren't in my SB). He didn't really have anything else going for him though and I was able to slaver lock him again.
Round 2 was against UW Spirits. He was on a really budget build but had managed to aggro down a very much not budget abzan midrange during his round 1 so I thought that was kind of funny. Regardless, nothing really special in any of the games. I got him in 3 since he was on the play game 2 and managed to drop double discroll captains. Reflector Mage bouncing Sundering Titan was fun though.
Round 3 was against Eldrazi and Taxes. Game 1 went for 35 minutes since I found myself at 2 life unable to take a turn to bring back Wurmcoil or draw new cards since I was stuck just having to academy ruins my o-stone over and over to kill the creatures he kept playing. He bricked first though by drawing into land / no ghost quarter and so I was finaly able to draw and managed to luckily draw into a platinum angel and counter magic. Game 2 went a lot faster. He took a muligan and didn't really have any pressure. I don't actually remember but I think I won this with just straight creature beats.
Game 4 was against UB Tezzeret Control. The games were really in my favored since I couldn't care less about his ensnaring bridges and damnation. Just countered Tezzeret and hid behind counter magic and bounce. Game 1 I slavered him without academy ruins but was able to do enough damage that he couldn't recover the one extra turn he got before I did find ruins. Game two he dropped Tezzeret fast and beat my face in with 5/5 Welding Jars. Game 3 I had Tron fast and dropped an early Ugin. Ugin's ult drew me extra at least 3 extra Tron pieces, slaver, and academy ruins. I had repeal in hand to bounce the spellbomb he had out for the slaver lock.
Overall I was very happy with how the list preformed but definitely credit the lack of aggro in the room. I really think I'm going to try gearhulk over Titan though for a while. He's won me a few games but more often than not feels just kind of win-more. I also found I was siding him out a lot in games where I probably would have left a gearhulk in.
Here's the list
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Treasure Mage
1 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
Spells:28
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Condescend
4 Expedition Map
3 Repeal
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Remand
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Mindslaver
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Academy Ruins
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
1 River of Tears
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Negate
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Dismember
2 Summary Dismissal
I usually prefer playing than speculating on cards to come... But I think this one gets more than 1 slot in the deck.
Extraction is more flexible while doing everything we want crypt to do - sometimes their casting the card is far scarier than the redundancy of a GY 'lock'
noob question, if we have a sundering titan in play, can we activate this multiple times copying the titan and thus also triggering its ETB effect multiple times to potentially blow up more lands?
not that i'm gonna run this, but just a rules question..
—Seal inscription
Since it never enters play, you don't get etb abilities.
If you want to mess around with bouncing Sun Titan, go OG and use Crystal Shard
—Seal inscription
What there is though is a place for you to ask questions about your build/meta/decision making.
Why are you winning with WCE? Is there a lot of Burn/Aggro? Is it because you're not seeing the correct hate for it?
Every time you untap and swing is a turn you could be using to control that player during their next turn so you really need to ask 'are there situations where using mindslaver could have won the game while leaving less outs?'
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd