I see shok has been rolling with 3 Leyline of Sanctity in his sb, I was wondering why not just run 1 and if you get it you get it if you don't then you have less chance of drawing blanks later in the game. I understand the more you have the better your chance of opening with one, but is there an argument for a permanent one of only in the 75? I mean **** discard and burn man I'm sick of being discarded 3 times before turn 4!
Even if you draw more later, really if the thing is out from T1 they're so screwed that the extra draw you lose from drawing a Leyline is nothing by comparison.
That does make sense, I was thinking more along the lines of a permanent slot and in that case I don't want to use 3 slots of my sb for one card I can't cast. I'm considering purchasing one but not sure if it's powerful enough for that one chance of drawing it, I would consider it just to give me that one shot to open with it or mulligan more aggressively if I have mediocre hands against unfavourable match ups like burn etc.
Could also run a Leyline of the void, but there are many other graveyard hate options.
Long story short I'm trying to put together a well rounded sb for my paper list, something I could take to any event and have decent options for games 2 and 3 regardless of that specific meta. A bit ambitious I know...
I guess the logic is to reliably screw them over and in order to do that you need to have more than 1.
Even if you draw more later, really if the thing is out from T1 they're so screwed that the extra draw you lose from drawing a Leyline is nothing by comparison.
Just so many slots. What are your thoughts on taking 3 of these vs maybe 2 orbs of warding? Are storm decks just too quick?
On Gifts ungiven, seems like it is normally a 1 of in most decks even thought every time I actually cast it the impact seems huge. Should we be running 2 or is their a reason that is not good?
Holy *****. Did you guys see the new board wipe from hour of devastation?
Bontu's last reckoning. 3 mana boardwipe. I know we can't use, but it's bound to slow the meta down a bit.
that is an interesting thought..i can imagine a grixis or an abzan type of list running it maybe in lieu of Flaying Tendrils or drown in sorrow(doesn't kill creatures with 3+ toughness) or even damnation(can be a turn too slow)..but i hope it does slow the meta down..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
Maybe Nephalia Academy can be a way to "negate"/"diminish" discard effects specially because it say "you may reveal that card and put it on top of your library instead" and that give us flexibility.
For me is like Gemstone Cavern because you pretty much need it on you opening hand and drawing it late is useless. So when the stars align and you are on the play and drop Nephalia Academy and your opponent "loose" value of 1 or 2 cards it may be worth it. The other 90% of the time is just a worst version of Wastes.
And last but not least the new removal is not for us, 1BB is pretty much impossible to achieve consistently even if you have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Talisman of Dominance in your mana base.
The only way to run Trinket Mange on the main deck and not loose a win condition is to run some kind of win condition that can be fetch for this mage. And the problems i find with that are the following:
Leyline is useless unless it is in your starting hand. The chance for it to be in your starting hand is about 11.6%. Orb of Warding is not useless ever and can be discarded as an artifact. Orb of Warding is of course too expensive at 5 mana but Leyline is basically uncastable. And don't get me started on ruining your manabase so that you can cast a sideboard card when the stars align...
Let me spread some light on Leyline and over rule the young jedi pierakor.
Trumping Pierakor's Logic:
1. What good does casting a 4 drop that grants us hexproof on turn 3 /4 do?
Shoktroopa: Well, let me start by saying I respect the communities opinions very much and I know what I say usually comes under fire from all directions but I will attempt to answer these questions as nicely as possible allowing others to rebuttal.
But to your question sir, I feel like turn 4 hexproof does nothing. Doesn't even help against burn, jund, death shadow, any deck that runs any sort of card that makes us (me) discard spells turns 1-3. I mean turn 4 hexproof does protect us against persecute, or scapeshift.
2. Why would anyone run Leyline of Sanctity in a Blue deck?
t1 hexproof is the best hexproof. So why would you not shoot for the moon everytime. Once you realize there are only 2, and you aren't really ever going to cast them (even though we can. check all said lists. there are 2 white sources somewhere- logic/extreme reasoning prevails!) i raise the question to you "why would you not run leyline when it helps win games v death's shadow, burn, ad naus, storm(stops gifts and grapeshot). I mean you hit w/ it in your opener or you don't. You will never cast that awful orb card we are trying to relate the power of t1 hexproof to turn 4 hexproof to.
3. Seems radical shoktroopa. Any way to rationalize not ever being able to cast leyline?
Technically we can, and yeah. What 2 or 3 or 4 slots are you going to put in your sideboard that can just completely blow out your opponent if you see it t1?
Look at is a spell pierce or something that counters a t1 discard spell and that is very hard for decks to get rid of it. The surprise of a leyline is almost as good as squelching a fetchland. Any other questions dudesweat?
4. Yeah one final question, Do you think pierakor intentionally disagrees with your philosophies on magical cards and strategies or do you think he genuinely can not grasp some of the concepts you incorporate in those sick 75's you roll out?
Umm, I think its a combo of both. I think too far outside of the box in many situations and circumstances that it appears to the naked eye or at first glance that we are clueless. But, there's always a situation where the card is KING and will obliterate your opponent and that is what I strive for sometimes. Pierakor likes to present the other side and I am a fan of that. He's not a very good learner sometimes but neither am I. Either way to sum it up "don't play bad 4 drops that give you hexproof after you have been defeated. Play 4 drops that you can't cast but can help you ensure victory quickly as possible(turn1)
Chance of Leyline of Sanctity starting in hand vs number of copies on the deck:
NUMBER OF COPIES: 1 CHANCE: 11% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
NUMBER OF COPIES: 2 CHANCE: 22% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
NUMBER OF COPIES: 3 CHANCE: 31% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
NUMBER OF COPIES: 4 CHANCE: 39% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
Now the question is... do we really need this kind of effects? Or putting in other terms is it worth it mulligan to xyz card to fight 3 or 4 deck on the meta?
The meta right now is very diverse i think we should focus on do what we do best and that is control the early game and win late. And i now that there will be someone that is going to say something like "but dude it just destroys xyz deck, is like you drop it and gg" and that is true but i think it comes with some mayor drawbacks like the fact that is almost impossible to cast specially if you are not running talismans and is and horrible top deck card and is not worth the 4 slots of the SB.
"don't play bad 4 drops that give you hexproof after you have been defeated. Play 4 drops that you can't cast but can help you ensure victory quickly as possible(turn1)
I agree wholeheartedly with this lesson. A card's usefulness is based on what it does, and when it does it. Turn 0 is very early, and since it gives us the effect we're looking for it's well worth the risk of drawing one later. Besides, we run Thirst for Knowledge, we can get rid of a few copies.
[I] suggest [to] run a play set and here is the math to back it up:
[copies vs hand size]
NUMBER OF COPIES: 1 CHANCE: 11% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
NUMBER OF COPIES: 2 CHANCE: 22% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
NUMBER OF COPIES: 3 CHANCE: 31% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
NUMBER OF COPIES: 4 CHANCE: 39% OF HAVING IT ON THE STARTING HAND
While you alluded to it I'll just point out that the value of each subsequent copy is lower than the one before. The first and second copy adds roughly 11%, but the third only adds 9%, and the fourth only 8% to the chance of having in the opener. These numbers are are important, but they also aren't the only numbers to look at. If we look four turns into the game the chances of being stuck with a spare copy of the leyline goes way way up when running three or more. With two leylines the chance is 3.1%, 8.35% with three, and a massive 15% with four. I haven't run the card myself, but it seems to me running one or two copies, and not actively taking mulligans for them is the way to go.
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On Gifts ungiven, seems like it is normally a 1 of in most decks even thought every time I actually cast it the impact seems huge. Should we be running 2 or is their a reason that is not good?
It's a great card, but there simply isn't enough space for too many draw spells, especially expensive ones like gifts. And as you've likely experienced, playing in a fast meta like the current modern meta means that getting stuck with only draw spells can lead to very quick losses. A big part of Gifts power comes from pulling singletons from the deck and putting them in a zone where we can interact with them, and in my experience you only need that effect about once each game. If you combine this with Gifts actively becoming worse in multiples due to the reduction in cards to pick from, the inclusion of more than one copy becomes hard to justify to most people.
If you want more card advantage in the deck I actually suggest finding space for artifacts. A lot of lists are running 13 or fewer, and at that point the reliability of thirst has already started to dip. By going from 13 to 15 artifacts you get rid of approximately 1 in 7 cases where you start with no artifacts in hand, and haven't found one even after casting thirst. That's an estimate for when you have no artifacts, but it also helps the selection when you do have some by quite a lot. I'm halfway convinced that the reason people are having success running Sundering Titan or more than one Mindslaver is simply because it's an artifact that can get safely discarded to thirst. I believe I fell into that trap myself for a while when I tried running Trophy Mage and Crucible of Worlds in the main. It worked decently, but there are better cards to run. However their actual effectiveness was actively masked by my Thirsts becoming better, something which can be achieved in any number of ways.
Thirst for Knowledge is the core card draw of the deck, don't forget about it when making adjustments elsewhere!
--------
I played at GP Copenhagen, but had a disappointing finish of 5-4 after day one (no byes). The deck worked fine, but wasn't tuned well because I didn't have time to prepare for the event.
At 3 Leylines is the correct number, 4 if you're not burning slots on 'cute' sb cards the ~25% increase in starting hands is a real number. Orbs is a 'take this not and my good card please' which will often have you dead in the water with an (equally uncastable Ivory Mask) in hand for 3 turns minimum (Orbs is 5 cmc) it also is an artifact, which sure pitches to thirst efficently, but also dies to any artifact hate they might have brought in against your good spells.
I see a healthy conversation and i like to add jet another 2 cents to it
I agree with @Agnara on the diminishing return of Leyline of Sanctity on opening hands vs number of copies on the side board, and i like the card but i think that, yes is a valid option, but i feel that is more a meta call that anything else just like Spellskite but the difference is that cards like Spellskite have use outside specific match ups.
Regarding the quantity of card draw vs the number of artifacts to maximize the effectiveness of Thirst for Knowledge i also agree and i find a sweet spot on 6 draw spells (for me 4 Thirst for Knowledge 1 Gifts Ungiven 1x Epiphany at the Drownyard) and a high number of artifacts (currently 14 main deck) and after many many games i'am starting to feel comfortable with this ratio. The only card that i'am thinking on swapping out is 1x Epiphany at the Drownyard for 1x Anticipate because the lower mana cost and non conditional aspect of the selection.
Last but not least Trinket Mage is doing wonders for me. Last night win me vs zoo fetching some good old Engineered Explosives, is flexible, block early (i think we need more early blockers) makes better Gifts Ungiven piles etc. I'am also testing (again) Hangarback Walker and 90% of the time is just Doomed Traveler for 2 and the other 10% of the time it just wins the game. I think is worth the inclusion and is easy to side-out in case we don't need it.
Love the list and single approach. You don't find 1 of trinket and treasure too small with so little redundancy for answers? (Obviously you don't but would like to hear your experience).
Well it seems modern has been revived at my LGS (It was killed by eldrazi and the twin ban). Last week I tried to play UR storm but my head expoded trying to learn the lines on the fly on a weeknight. So I think I'll switch back to a deck I am more experienced with.
Now the sideboard is particularly out of date. From what I saw last week the meta game seems to be plenty of GBx and UWx control. With burn, elves and affinity present as well. I think people dusted off thier old decks rather than trying to learn meta decks (like I tried to do and failed miserably), perhaps deaths shadow will turn up later when people collect it.
I like Leyline if you add a 1x Seachrome Coast. A fast land is generally where we want to be in this deck, many games require a fetch for a blue source with the expedition map on t2 which can then be played untapped on t3.
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That does make sense, I was thinking more along the lines of a permanent slot and in that case I don't want to use 3 slots of my sb for one card I can't cast. I'm considering purchasing one but not sure if it's powerful enough for that one chance of drawing it, I would consider it just to give me that one shot to open with it or mulligan more aggressively if I have mediocre hands against unfavourable match ups like burn etc.
Could also run a Leyline of the void, but there are many other graveyard hate options.
Long story short I'm trying to put together a well rounded sb for my paper list, something I could take to any event and have decent options for games 2 and 3 regardless of that specific meta. A bit ambitious I know...
Thanks for reply.
Just so many slots. What are your thoughts on taking 3 of these vs maybe 2 orbs of warding? Are storm decks just too quick?
that is an interesting thought..i can imagine a grixis or an abzan type of list running it maybe in lieu of Flaying Tendrils or drown in sorrow(doesn't kill creatures with 3+ toughness) or even damnation(can be a turn too slow)..but i hope it does slow the meta down..
—Seal inscription
Maybe Nephalia Academy can be a way to "negate"/"diminish" discard effects specially because it say "you may reveal that card and put it on top of your library instead" and that give us flexibility.
For me is like Gemstone Cavern because you pretty much need it on you opening hand and drawing it late is useless. So when the stars align and you are on the play and drop Nephalia Academy and your opponent "loose" value of 1 or 2 cards it may be worth it. The other 90% of the time is just a worst version of Wastes.
And last but not least the new removal is not for us, 1BB is pretty much impossible to achieve consistently even if you have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Talisman of Dominance in your mana base.
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
But, at the same time it provides a way to fetch very important main deck cards like:
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
please explain sir..
—Seal inscription
Just play good sb cards and a good manabase.
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
Trumping Pierakor's Logic:
1. What good does casting a 4 drop that grants us hexproof on turn 3 /4 do?
Shoktroopa: Well, let me start by saying I respect the communities opinions very much and I know what I say usually comes under fire from all directions but I will attempt to answer these questions as nicely as possible allowing others to rebuttal.
But to your question sir, I feel like turn 4 hexproof does nothing. Doesn't even help against burn, jund, death shadow, any deck that runs any sort of card that makes us (me) discard spells turns 1-3. I mean turn 4 hexproof does protect us against persecute, or scapeshift.
2. Why would anyone run Leyline of Sanctity in a Blue deck?
t1 hexproof is the best hexproof. So why would you not shoot for the moon everytime. Once you realize there are only 2, and you aren't really ever going to cast them (even though we can. check all said lists. there are 2 white sources somewhere- logic/extreme reasoning prevails!) i raise the question to you "why would you not run leyline when it helps win games v death's shadow, burn, ad naus, storm(stops gifts and grapeshot). I mean you hit w/ it in your opener or you don't. You will never cast that awful orb card we are trying to relate the power of t1 hexproof to turn 4 hexproof to.
3. Seems radical shoktroopa. Any way to rationalize not ever being able to cast leyline?
Technically we can, and yeah. What 2 or 3 or 4 slots are you going to put in your sideboard that can just completely blow out your opponent if you see it t1?
Look at is a spell pierce or something that counters a t1 discard spell and that is very hard for decks to get rid of it. The surprise of a leyline is almost as good as squelching a fetchland. Any other questions dudesweat?
4. Yeah one final question, Do you think pierakor intentionally disagrees with your philosophies on magical cards and strategies or do you think he genuinely can not grasp some of the concepts you incorporate in those sick 75's you roll out?
Umm, I think its a combo of both. I think too far outside of the box in many situations and circumstances that it appears to the naked eye or at first glance that we are clueless. But, there's always a situation where the card is KING and will obliterate your opponent and that is what I strive for sometimes. Pierakor likes to present the other side and I am a fan of that. He's not a very good learner sometimes but neither am I. Either way to sum it up "don't play bad 4 drops that give you hexproof after you have been defeated. Play 4 drops that you can't cast but can help you ensure victory quickly as possible(turn1)
Over the Leyline of Sanctity/Orbs of Warding matter ill say Leyline of Sanctity is way better but if you are running it ill suggest run a play set and here is the math to back it up:
Chance of Leyline of Sanctity starting in hand vs number of copies on the deck:
Now the question is... do we really need this kind of effects? Or putting in other terms is it worth it mulligan to xyz card to fight 3 or 4 deck on the meta?
The meta right now is very diverse i think we should focus on do what we do best and that is control the early game and win late. And i now that there will be someone that is going to say something like "but dude it just destroys xyz deck, is like you drop it and gg" and that is true but i think it comes with some mayor drawbacks like the fact that is almost impossible to cast specially if you are not running talismans and is and horrible top deck card and is not worth the 4 slots of the SB.
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
I agree wholeheartedly with this lesson. A card's usefulness is based on what it does, and when it does it. Turn 0 is very early, and since it gives us the effect we're looking for it's well worth the risk of drawing one later. Besides, we run Thirst for Knowledge, we can get rid of a few copies.
While you alluded to it I'll just point out that the value of each subsequent copy is lower than the one before. The first and second copy adds roughly 11%, but the third only adds 9%, and the fourth only 8% to the chance of having in the opener. These numbers are are important, but they also aren't the only numbers to look at. If we look four turns into the game the chances of being stuck with a spare copy of the leyline goes way way up when running three or more. With two leylines the chance is 3.1%, 8.35% with three, and a massive 15% with four. I haven't run the card myself, but it seems to me running one or two copies, and not actively taking mulligans for them is the way to go.
--------
It's a great card, but there simply isn't enough space for too many draw spells, especially expensive ones like gifts. And as you've likely experienced, playing in a fast meta like the current modern meta means that getting stuck with only draw spells can lead to very quick losses. A big part of Gifts power comes from pulling singletons from the deck and putting them in a zone where we can interact with them, and in my experience you only need that effect about once each game. If you combine this with Gifts actively becoming worse in multiples due to the reduction in cards to pick from, the inclusion of more than one copy becomes hard to justify to most people.
If you want more card advantage in the deck I actually suggest finding space for artifacts. A lot of lists are running 13 or fewer, and at that point the reliability of thirst has already started to dip. By going from 13 to 15 artifacts you get rid of approximately 1 in 7 cases where you start with no artifacts in hand, and haven't found one even after casting thirst. That's an estimate for when you have no artifacts, but it also helps the selection when you do have some by quite a lot. I'm halfway convinced that the reason people are having success running Sundering Titan or more than one Mindslaver is simply because it's an artifact that can get safely discarded to thirst. I believe I fell into that trap myself for a while when I tried running Trophy Mage and Crucible of Worlds in the main. It worked decently, but there are better cards to run. However their actual effectiveness was actively masked by my Thirsts becoming better, something which can be achieved in any number of ways.
Thirst for Knowledge is the core card draw of the deck, don't forget about it when making adjustments elsewhere!
--------
I played at GP Copenhagen, but had a disappointing finish of 5-4 after day one (no byes). The deck worked fine, but wasn't tuned well because I didn't have time to prepare for the event.
I agree with @Agnara on the diminishing return of Leyline of Sanctity on opening hands vs number of copies on the side board, and i like the card but i think that, yes is a valid option, but i feel that is more a meta call that anything else just like Spellskite but the difference is that cards like Spellskite have use outside specific match ups.
Regarding the quantity of card draw vs the number of artifacts to maximize the effectiveness of Thirst for Knowledge i also agree and i find a sweet spot on 6 draw spells (for me 4 Thirst for Knowledge 1 Gifts Ungiven 1x Epiphany at the Drownyard) and a high number of artifacts (currently 14 main deck) and after many many games i'am starting to feel comfortable with this ratio. The only card that i'am thinking on swapping out is 1x Epiphany at the Drownyard for 1x Anticipate because the lower mana cost and non conditional aspect of the selection.
Last but not least Trinket Mage is doing wonders for me. Last night win me vs zoo fetching some good old Engineered Explosives, is flexible, block early (i think we need more early blockers) makes better Gifts Ungiven piles etc. I'am also testing (again) Hangarback Walker and 90% of the time is just Doomed Traveler for 2 and the other 10% of the time it just wins the game. I think is worth the inclusion and is easy to side-out in case we don't need it.
My current list.
1x Academy Ruins
1x Gemstone Caverns
1x Ghost Quarter
6x Island
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x River of Tears
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
Artifact (10)
1x Batterskull
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Expedition Map
1x Mindslaver
1x Oblivion Stone
4x Condescend
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Epiphany at the Drownyard
1x Gifts Ungiven
2x Remand
2x Repeal
1x Spell Burst
4x Thirst for Knowledge
Creature (7)
1x Hangarback Walker
1x Platinum Angel
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Sundering Titan
1x Treasure Mage
1x Trinket Mage
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Sorcery (1)
1x Fabricate
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Bottle Gnomes
1x Dismember
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Filigree Familiar
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Jester's Cap
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Spatial Contortion
1x Spellskite
1x Steel Wall
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Torpor Orb
As you can see my SB is compose of 15 unique cards and the reasons for that are Trinket Mage and Gifts Ungiven.
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
Love the list and single approach. You don't find 1 of trinket and treasure too small with so little redundancy for answers? (Obviously you don't but would like to hear your experience).
Here is my current list.
1 treasure mage
2 solemn simulacrum
1 wurmcoil engine
1 torrential gearhulk
1 platinum angel
1 sundering titan
planeswalker
1 Ugin, the spirit dragon
Artifacts
4 expedition map
3 Tailsmin of dominance
1 oblivion stone
2 mindlaver
Sorcery
1 fabricate
4 condesend
3 repeal
1 spell burst
3 remand
2 spatial contortion
1 cyclonic rift
4 thirst for knowleadge
lands
12 tron lands
6 island
2 ghost quarter
1 minamo, school at the waters edge
1 Academy Ruins
1 Gemstone caverns
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Dismember
2 Filagree familiar
2 Aetherize
1 Jester's cap
1 Wurmcoil engine
Now the sideboard is particularly out of date. From what I saw last week the meta game seems to be plenty of GBx and UWx control. With burn, elves and affinity present as well. I think people dusted off thier old decks rather than trying to learn meta decks (like I tried to do and failed miserably), perhaps deaths shadow will turn up later when people collect it.
I have been trying to trade for chalice of the voids for years now, so far I have one. so I am thinking - spellskite + chalice of the void and I can fabricate for it. I have a batterskull in an EDH deck somewhere if I need it and relics/cyrpts lying around.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own