Idunno, to me, the one less p/t of Stormbreath Dragon is worth it being immune to Path to Exile, as well as other random white stuff. It seems to me that 1 less damage each turn won't matter that much, and even if it does, you will likely have a burn spell or another creature to attack with. Sure it doesn't kill Spirit tokens (I've been seeing less and less of those anyway), but it can attack straight through them repeatedly, as well as through larger white flyers such as Restoration Angel and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Although these dragons are finishers, there may be times where you need to use them defensively to stay alive; Stormbreath is better for that too. It blocks Iona, Resto, Voice of Resurgence, Kitchen Finks, hatebears...
The only downside I can see, the less p/t and the inability wipe spirit tokens, is that you can't flicker it with Resto...
I would say this: More UW Tron/UWx Control, and hatebears in your meta? Play Stormbreath, pro-white will help. More midrange, tempo, Infect, and Affinity in your meta? Play Thundermaw, pro-white won't help as much, but every life point counts in these matchups so the more damage per swing the better.
I think the 1/1 difference between the two is huge. There's a huge difference between tasigur's clock and gurmag angler's clock. The same is true with these two. Yes pro white is nice. But so is having an enter the battlefield effect that kills lingering souls, affinity flyers, Vendilion clique, thopters, etc.
In the old meta I ran keranos mainboard, but Thundermaw is too good now when we need to be faster. We cannot out grind eldrazi or tron, we just need to be faster. And the 1/1 difference, plus the tap effect is huge.
I'm an ex-twin player, and though I'm a little sad about losing my "go-to" deck, I'm actually really happy I'm able to test a variety of new blue decks, without feeling I'd rather play twin. After trying some delver/blue moon stuff that did'nt convince me, I'm willing to try Jeskai. I've played Jeskai control a lot but never was satisfied with the deck's lack of a real proactive plan, wich is fine in a vacuum but makes some matchups really difficult in modern.
jeskai midrange thus seems like a good idea. Here's the list I'm trying:
(I hope you can read the cards with the screenshot,I'll edit it later with a typed list otherwise)
Some remarks and questions:
-First, about the land base, I went with a 3-1 split between colonnade and the new manland, this is mostly due to mtgo budget concerns, as well as the deltas in place of the tarns (I would be playing 4 colonnades and 4 tarns in paper)
-Do you think fitting some number of ghost quarters is viable?
I'm not playing Eiganjo's castle, do you think it is that good in the deck?
-As there are some cards I really wanted to fit: spell snare, cryptic, Elspeth. Maybe Elspeth could move to the side, or take Thundermaw's place, but Elpseth+geist seems really strong
I went for a lot of affinity hate in the side, maybe too much. I cut the big mana spells like big elpseth & keranos for more reactive spells as I feel I have a good number of threats in the main deck.
I put some spreading seas to deal with tron: while playing blue moon, the card felt really strong against the deck, a lot stronger than Crumble to dust. Plus it comes down a lot earlier and draws a card, which is really good. It also has applications in other matchups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGO Username: Tajicyolo
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show Duel Commander:Kess High Tide Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Firewalker tends to be worse vs. Burn than other options for this deck. I find Leyline is better because it plays double duties against Abzan as it protects Geist from Liliana forcing you to sac it.
Keranos is basically there to win the control mirror. They likely don't have an answer and if they follow the meta closely and boards in like a Celestial Purge for it, it will probably be a one of.
I'm guessing you want Spreading Seas for Tron? Honestly I find the best way to deal with Tron is Crumble to Dust, the new Sowing Salt. Some people like Fulminator Mage more, some people run Ghost Quarters maindeck over Tectonic Edge, some people like to just drop a Blood Moon. I've found for consistencies sake though Crumble to Dust does the job shutting off their engine. Path to Exile is the best counter there is for a t3 Wurmcoil and you can beat down a Karn with Geist as it's target permanent and Geist has hexproof.
Eiganjo is auto-include for two main reasons. The first is that it save the Geist from Pyroclasm which is the most common answer in the meta for Geist. The second reason is that it saves the Geist from Snapcaster Mage being blinked in to block it which is also a very common option. Drawing a white land might not always be optimal, I wouldn't run multiples because of the legend rule and the fact it's a white land that you can't search for but overall it helps more than it hurts.
Also congratulations on leaving Twin behind. Jeskai is probably a good place to start as in the post-Twin meta it's going to be a lot of aggro vs. a lot of Abzan type decks to ***** on it and a lot of Tron to win those midrange wars. Jeskai is a nice fit to all of that and it's real weakness was only ever that it was fair and fair is pretty much the name of the game now unless you're Instant Reanimator but hopefully that stays under the rug a while.
After playing in a few local tournies 20+ players each, and seeing more linear decks and eldrazi, feels like remand has gotten much worse for me at least locally so far, upping mana leaks and serum visions for now instead of any remands, also trying 1 Pia and Kiran main and going down to 1 clique as again Clique seems much worse against those decks as well (not eldrazi so much as burn and affinity, etc..).
After playing in a few local tournies 20+ players each, and seeing more linear decks and eldrazi, feels like remand has gotten much worse for me at least locally so far, upping mana leaks and serum visions for now instead of any remands, also trying 1 Pia and Kiran main and going down to 1 clique as again Clique seems much worse against those decks as well (not eldrazi so much as burn and affinity, etc..).
3-1 split between the manlands still needs some more testing, but I actually was able to use it to pressure Liliana of the Veil when playing against Jund and 8-Rack. Honestly, the lower activation cost is extremely relevant in some matchups and I wouldn't mind a 2-2 split between them although I haven't been bold enough to test that just yet.
Playset of Remand backed up by Mana Leak, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce has actually been really solid for me. I have been a little underwhelmed with Remand in some matchups, but I still think its a great card to have on T2 against a lot of decks. I could see an argument for cutting 1-2 of them for another Mana Leak or two depending on the meta. Remand has still been an overperforming card with a Geist of Saint Traft already out on the board and helps with tempoing the opponent out.
The last noteable thing about the decklist is the two maindeck Pia and Kiran Nalaar. That card has sealed so many games so far against Affinity and Infect. Game 1, dropping it against them can a lot of the times be game over. Having the tokens buy you a turn against linear aggressive decks and then blinking with Restoration Angel actually happens more than I thought. The added synergy in the deck is great for both linear aggressive strategies as well as opposing grindy decks. Not only that but I have cast Pia and Kiran Nalaar multiple times following an opponent playing a Blood Moon. Just the fact that you can play it under Blood Moon feels great. It also is just a great threat against Jund, pairs decently well against opposing Lingering Souls, and puts a lot of pressure on tap-out Grixis decks where they tend to 1-for-1 you.
Sideboard is also in a nice spot for the current meta. I swapped my Anger of the Gods for a Supreme Verdict in the case of big Zoo getting bigger, as well as decks like Merfolk that can run counters or just get their creatures way above 3 toughness. It is also a cleaner answer to Etched Champion. Ajani Vengeant has also been pretty awesome as not only tech against burn or other aggressive decks, but great against Grixis and Jund where dropping a planeswalker and just ticking up can be a lot of pressure.
Overall, I'm happy with the list above but I would love any suggestions. With school being really busy I don't see myself going to any events other than FNM in the near future, but I may take it to Grand Prix DC and play in some side events and see how the deck performs in a bigger field (aka not my local playgroup, FNM, or cockatrice).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out some Magic Gameplay and Commentary videos here, including Modern Grixis, Jeskai, and Esper videos as well as some Standard and Drafts too: My YouTube Channel!
I second Parents - I think this is the exact card we need for Infect and Affinity - they will get us there in those matchups were we need to more blockers (colourless, flying, sac for 2 dmg - yes please) for Infect and blockers for Etched Champion..
Hi Paradox Omega, I'm running a very similar list as you. I run one less counterspell in favour of 4 lightning helix's. For 4 drops, I run 2 Whirler Rogue's, 2 Restoration Angels and 2 Elspeth's. All of my 4 drops allow Geist to attack on turn 4. I might try 3 Angels, 1 Elspeth. All the 4 drops have been great though. I used to run Pia and Kiran over Whirler Rogue. Pia and Kiran are better in some matchups, especially Infect, but Whirler Rogue has overperformed for me. It has caught a lot of people off guard and allows the deck to race. Often I was finding the deck would stall against cards like Tarmogoyf or Finks even with all the creature kill in the deck. Unblockable also nullifies the surprise snapcaster or restoration angel blocker. Maybe I will try a split between Whirler and Pia or shave an Elspeth for one.
Hi Paradox Omega, I'm running a very similar list as you. I run one less counterspell in favour of 4 lightning helix's. For 4 drops, I run 2 Whirler Rogue's, 2 Restoration Angels and 2 Elspeth's. All of my 4 drops allow Geist to attack on turn 4. I might try 3 Angels, 1 Elspeth. All the 4 drops have been great though. I used to run Pia and Kiran over Whirler Rogue. Pia and Kiran are better in some matchups, especially Infect, but Whirler Rogue has overperformed for me. It has caught a lot of people off guard and allows the deck to race. Often I was finding the deck would stall against cards like Tarmogoyf or Finks even with all the creature kill in the deck. Unblockable also nullifies the surprise snapcaster or restoration angel blocker. Maybe I will try a split between Whirler and Pia or shave an Elspeth for one.
That's great to hear. The counterspell suite I'm currently running is in no way 100% optimized, in fact I think a 4th Lightning Helix might be exactly where we want to be in this meta so that may change. However, I think the big difference between Whirler Rogue and Pia and Kiran Nalaar is that the latter is much more effective on an empty board. In the mid-late game, the turn after you play Pia and Kiran Nalaar you can potentially hit your opponent for 8 damage if you have the mana. It can also just be used as shocks on pesky creatures. It closes out the game so much more efficiently on an empty board. There are many cards that are good in conjunction with Geist of Saint Traft, but having cards that are semi-optimal without Geist of Saint Traft is a bad move in my opinion. Also, with the addition of another blinkable target, Restoration Angel gains even more utility in our build which is why I have the 3-1 split with Elspeth, Knight-Errant which is also a great card but a card that I really don't want to see more than 1-of in a game. It can be very slow and non-defensive against the more aggressive decks, whereas Restoration Angel is a great body with flying that has added utility with the rest of our deck.
Those are just my reasonings for my 4-drop choices. I think, yes, Tarmogoyf and Kitchen Finks can be a problem for us on occasion, however Pia and Kiran Nalaar do a great job of grinding those decks out. It's a different approach to those matchups but a more consistent one across the board. Also, one thing I didn't mention is that Whirler Rogue becomes useless if just one of the Thopter tokens dies whereas Pia and Kiran Nalaar makes use of each individual one and just gets us more value out of a single card. Diversification of threats can be good and I recommend you test both out, but I think in the end you will find Pia and Kiran Nalaar to be far superior than Whirler Rogue, even in a list centered around Geist of Saint Traft.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out some Magic Gameplay and Commentary videos here, including Modern Grixis, Jeskai, and Esper videos as well as some Standard and Drafts too: My YouTube Channel!
Yeah, really meant I just think Pia and Kiran is much better against those especially affinity. And I just feel Cliques hasn't been as good for me lately but still like having 1 in the deck for now.
Pia is definately better on a empty board, no arguments there, it is definitely great in a grind. The problem is that I often found I never had the chance to activate their ability. Pia would just get killed, or the most often the case was that it was just better to attack with Celestial Colonnade. In testing so far I've just gotten to use Whirler Rogue's ability more often. Another very small advantage is that it costs 2 blue instead of 2 red and its not legendary. It doesn't happen often but I have had Pia sit in hand on turn 4 do to lack of red, and had the odd game where I had 2 whirler rogues on board. I don't like the argument that losing one token renders Whirler useless. Pia is almost as easy to kill as a token and almost always targeted first, and Restoration Angel has set me up for another unexpected unblockable attack. I think there are arguments for both, the advantages of either are really situational and often they end up being the same card.
Good to hear Fumerole is a worthy addition. I'm getting a couple this week and plan to start playing with 1 in deck and see how it goes.
Pia's a nice card but I always feel it's a better card in Grixis because of Kolaghan's Command. We also tend to have Celestial Colonnade against an empty boardstate. If you have the mana to drop Pia and then explode Pia's Drones for the extra damage you've probably got enough mana to drop a 5 CMC card as well. I'd personally rather something like a Baneslayer Angel or even Dragonlord Ojutai. Minamo is an option for untapping Ojutai as a response to spot removal. Eiganjo could drop him trading with a Colonnade.
Pia's a nice card but I always feel it's a better card in Grixis because of Kolaghan's Command. We also tend to have Celestial Colonnade against an empty boardstate. If you have the mana to drop Pia and then explode Pia's Drones for the extra damage you've probably got enough mana to drop a 5 CMC card as well. I'd personally rather something like a Baneslayer Angel or even Dragonlord Ojutai. Minamo is an option for untapping Ojutai as a response to spot removal. Eiganjo could drop him trading with a Colonnade.
Slayers' Stronghold is also a great option alongside Ojutai. I used to run that package, and it was insanely good.
Pia's a nice card but I always feel it's a better card in Grixis because of Kolaghan's Command. We also tend to have Celestial Colonnade against an empty boardstate. If you have the mana to drop Pia and then explode Pia's Drones for the extra damage you've probably got enough mana to drop a 5 CMC card as well. I'd personally rather something like a Baneslayer Angel or even Dragonlord Ojutai. Minamo is an option for untapping Ojutai as a response to spot removal. Eiganjo could drop him trading with a Colonnade.
Slayers' Stronghold is also a great option alongside Ojutai. I used to run that package, and it was insanely good.
If I went back down the creature path away from the Control one I'd be running a couple of Ojutai I think, he's just a sweet card.
BBD just posted a playlist on CFB's youtube page. Don't have time to watch the videos at the moment, but figured I'd post the link since the list looks interesting.
I don't like this because it increases the deck's vulnerability to yard hate. The nice thing about P&K is that it's a win condition that can still go through if Eldrazi stomps the yard with Relic of Progenitus.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The only downside I can see, the less p/t and the inability wipe spirit tokens, is that you can't flicker it with Resto...
I would say this: More UW Tron/UWx Control, and hatebears in your meta? Play Stormbreath, pro-white will help. More midrange, tempo, Infect, and Affinity in your meta? Play Thundermaw, pro-white won't help as much, but every life point counts in these matchups so the more damage per swing the better.
UW Caw-Blade
GW Bogles
U Delver
GBTolarian Community College's/Turn One Thoughtseize's $2 Dredge
UR DrakeRUG Murasa Tron
UWR TwinGW BoglesB 8-Rack (budget)UWR Delver/GeistUW Gifts TronUR Bedlam DelverWRG Burn
UBR Death's Shadow
UR Artifacts(~M15)UW Heroic(~Theros)WBR Warriors(~KTK)R Aggro(~Origins)RUG Wombo-Combo Energy (~Kaladesh)
My (upgradable) $150 Modern budget UR Delver (possibly outdated): http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/budget-modern/738332-ur-bedlam-delver
My Pauper Cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/69019
In the old meta I ran keranos mainboard, but Thundermaw is too good now when we need to be faster. We cannot out grind eldrazi or tron, we just need to be faster. And the 1/1 difference, plus the tap effect is huge.
I'm an ex-twin player, and though I'm a little sad about losing my "go-to" deck, I'm actually really happy I'm able to test a variety of new blue decks, without feeling I'd rather play twin. After trying some delver/blue moon stuff that did'nt convince me, I'm willing to try Jeskai. I've played Jeskai control a lot but never was satisfied with the deck's lack of a real proactive plan, wich is fine in a vacuum but makes some matchups really difficult in modern.
jeskai midrange thus seems like a good idea. Here's the list I'm trying:
(I hope you can read the cards with the screenshot,I'll edit it later with a typed list otherwise)
Some remarks and questions:
-First, about the land base, I went with a 3-1 split between colonnade and the new manland, this is mostly due to mtgo budget concerns, as well as the deltas in place of the tarns (I would be playing 4 colonnades and 4 tarns in paper)
-Do you think fitting some number of ghost quarters is viable?
I'm not playing Eiganjo's castle, do you think it is that good in the deck?
-As there are some cards I really wanted to fit: spell snare, cryptic, Elspeth. Maybe Elspeth could move to the side, or take Thundermaw's place, but Elpseth+geist seems really strong
I went for a lot of affinity hate in the side, maybe too much. I cut the big mana spells like big elpseth & keranos for more reactive spells as I feel I have a good number of threats in the main deck.
I put some spreading seas to deal with tron: while playing blue moon, the card felt really strong against the deck, a lot stronger than Crumble to dust. Plus it comes down a lot earlier and draws a card, which is really good. It also has applications in other matchups.
Currently Playing:
Modern
Legacy:
Duel Commander:
Vintage
Keranos is basically there to win the control mirror. They likely don't have an answer and if they follow the meta closely and boards in like a Celestial Purge for it, it will probably be a one of.
I'm guessing you want Spreading Seas for Tron? Honestly I find the best way to deal with Tron is Crumble to Dust, the new Sowing Salt. Some people like Fulminator Mage more, some people run Ghost Quarters maindeck over Tectonic Edge, some people like to just drop a Blood Moon. I've found for consistencies sake though Crumble to Dust does the job shutting off their engine. Path to Exile is the best counter there is for a t3 Wurmcoil and you can beat down a Karn with Geist as it's target permanent and Geist has hexproof.
Eiganjo is auto-include for two main reasons. The first is that it save the Geist from Pyroclasm which is the most common answer in the meta for Geist. The second reason is that it saves the Geist from Snapcaster Mage being blinked in to block it which is also a very common option. Drawing a white land might not always be optimal, I wouldn't run multiples because of the legend rule and the fact it's a white land that you can't search for but overall it helps more than it hurts.
Also congratulations on leaving Twin behind. Jeskai is probably a good place to start as in the post-Twin meta it's going to be a lot of aggro vs. a lot of Abzan type decks to ***** on it and a lot of Tron to win those midrange wars. Jeskai is a nice fit to all of that and it's real weakness was only ever that it was fair and fair is pretty much the name of the game now unless you're Instant Reanimator but hopefully that stays under the rug a while.
Clique is fine vs burn and Affinity.
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Wandering Fumarole
1 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
Creature (14):
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalker (1):
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Celestial Purge
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Molten Rain
1 Negate
2 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wear / Tear
3-1 split between the manlands still needs some more testing, but I actually was able to use it to pressure Liliana of the Veil when playing against Jund and 8-Rack. Honestly, the lower activation cost is extremely relevant in some matchups and I wouldn't mind a 2-2 split between them although I haven't been bold enough to test that just yet.
Playset of Remand backed up by Mana Leak, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce has actually been really solid for me. I have been a little underwhelmed with Remand in some matchups, but I still think its a great card to have on T2 against a lot of decks. I could see an argument for cutting 1-2 of them for another Mana Leak or two depending on the meta. Remand has still been an overperforming card with a Geist of Saint Traft already out on the board and helps with tempoing the opponent out.
The last noteable thing about the decklist is the two maindeck Pia and Kiran Nalaar. That card has sealed so many games so far against Affinity and Infect. Game 1, dropping it against them can a lot of the times be game over. Having the tokens buy you a turn against linear aggressive decks and then blinking with Restoration Angel actually happens more than I thought. The added synergy in the deck is great for both linear aggressive strategies as well as opposing grindy decks. Not only that but I have cast Pia and Kiran Nalaar multiple times following an opponent playing a Blood Moon. Just the fact that you can play it under Blood Moon feels great. It also is just a great threat against Jund, pairs decently well against opposing Lingering Souls, and puts a lot of pressure on tap-out Grixis decks where they tend to 1-for-1 you.
Sideboard is also in a nice spot for the current meta. I swapped my Anger of the Gods for a Supreme Verdict in the case of big Zoo getting bigger, as well as decks like Merfolk that can run counters or just get their creatures way above 3 toughness. It is also a cleaner answer to Etched Champion. Ajani Vengeant has also been pretty awesome as not only tech against burn or other aggressive decks, but great against Grixis and Jund where dropping a planeswalker and just ticking up can be a lot of pressure.
Overall, I'm happy with the list above but I would love any suggestions. With school being really busy I don't see myself going to any events other than FNM in the near future, but I may take it to Grand Prix DC and play in some side events and see how the deck performs in a bigger field (aka not my local playgroup, FNM, or cockatrice).
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
That's great to hear. The counterspell suite I'm currently running is in no way 100% optimized, in fact I think a 4th Lightning Helix might be exactly where we want to be in this meta so that may change. However, I think the big difference between Whirler Rogue and Pia and Kiran Nalaar is that the latter is much more effective on an empty board. In the mid-late game, the turn after you play Pia and Kiran Nalaar you can potentially hit your opponent for 8 damage if you have the mana. It can also just be used as shocks on pesky creatures. It closes out the game so much more efficiently on an empty board. There are many cards that are good in conjunction with Geist of Saint Traft, but having cards that are semi-optimal without Geist of Saint Traft is a bad move in my opinion. Also, with the addition of another blinkable target, Restoration Angel gains even more utility in our build which is why I have the 3-1 split with Elspeth, Knight-Errant which is also a great card but a card that I really don't want to see more than 1-of in a game. It can be very slow and non-defensive against the more aggressive decks, whereas Restoration Angel is a great body with flying that has added utility with the rest of our deck.
Those are just my reasonings for my 4-drop choices. I think, yes, Tarmogoyf and Kitchen Finks can be a problem for us on occasion, however Pia and Kiran Nalaar do a great job of grinding those decks out. It's a different approach to those matchups but a more consistent one across the board. Also, one thing I didn't mention is that Whirler Rogue becomes useless if just one of the Thopter tokens dies whereas Pia and Kiran Nalaar makes use of each individual one and just gets us more value out of a single card. Diversification of threats can be good and I recommend you test both out, but I think in the end you will find Pia and Kiran Nalaar to be far superior than Whirler Rogue, even in a list centered around Geist of Saint Traft.
Good to hear Fumerole is a worthy addition. I'm getting a couple this week and plan to start playing with 1 in deck and see how it goes.
Slayers' Stronghold is also a great option alongside Ojutai. I used to run that package, and it was insanely good.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
If I went back down the creature path away from the Control one I'd be running a couple of Ojutai I think, he's just a sweet card.
Example list,
4 Bolt
4 Path
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Snapcaster
3 Helix
4 Remand
1 Negate
4 Geist
1 Clique
3 Electrolyze
3 Resto Angel
1 Cryptic Command
2 Ojutai
This is along the lines of the sort of decks I build. I think the mix is good.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
I don't like this because it increases the deck's vulnerability to yard hate. The nice thing about P&K is that it's a win condition that can still go through if Eldrazi stomps the yard with Relic of Progenitus.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit