It has been a long time since I last posted, and I wrote a very long response that got deleted when my computer crashed. Well, here's a recap... Paradox Omega, our lists are pretty similar, and I've had success with mine also (~70% win rate). Vs Grixis, I strongly prefer Vendilion Clique to Mindcensor. I have 2 Clique main, and I have the same thoughts about Mindcensor as you wrote. That's why I only run 1 main. (I wouldn't even run Mindcensor if I didn't have much Amulet or Tron in my meta.) Clique helps either plan you want to pursue (aggro or control), which is the type of flexibility you need in this matchup. The roles are very draw-dependent. If they have an early threat, you're either forced to answer it or race it with a threat of your own plus all of the burn that we run. If not, try to stick a threat of your own and play a control game until you win. I also strongly prefer non-Mana Leak counterspells in this matchup since winning counter wars requires efficiency (Spell Snare) and value (Remanding your countered spells to recast them). I run a 2 Mana Leak/2 Remand/2 Spell Snare split, but that's in a meta with more BGx and combo. If your meta is tons of Grixis control, then something like 1 Leak/3 Remand/2 Snare seems better. I like T-Maw a lot as a game 1 threat that I board out vs Grixis in favor of something better. In my list, that's Keranos, but you have him main board. I also run Elspeth, Sun's Champion, which is amazing at stabilizing basically any board state. She either wipes the board or makes tons of chump blockers that will eventually win the game on their own. She's incredible, and there's almost always time to land her in this matchup.
If I ran your list, I'd board in +1 Clique, +2 Dispel, +1 Negate, +1 Purge and take out -2 Mindcensor, -1 Thundermaw, -2 Mana Leak. I don't like Supreme Verdict because Grixis usually only runs 5 Tasigur/Gurmag Angler, which can be answered with Paths, Purge, Remand (huge tempo gain), Mana Leak, or Snap-Path/Purge. This lets you keep your own threats on board also. (Supreme Verdict can be a dead draw late if you're trying to race with an on-board threat.) I am not sold on Rest in Peace, but I haven't tried it. I don't think Spellskite is necessary. You can keep all the burn in the deck to race if it comes down to it. I actually like Helix better in this matchup than Bolt since many games end up being races.
This time, I died by 2 pact of negation triggers off of hive mind with one mana short to pay them.
Were the pact copies both on the stack simultaneously? if so, you could have used the second one to counter the first, resulting in you only having to pay 3UU. Bloom is nigh-on unwinnable but knowing these little tricks helps a bit.
It has been a long time since I last posted, and I wrote a very long response that got deleted when my computer crashed. Well, here's a recap... Paradox Omega, our lists are pretty similar, and I've had success with mine also (~70% win rate). Vs Grixis, I strongly prefer Vendilion Clique to Mindcensor. I have 2 Clique main, and I have the same thoughts about Mindcensor as you wrote. That's why I only run 1 main. (I wouldn't even run Mindcensor if I didn't have much Amulet or Tron in my meta.) Clique helps either plan you want to pursue (aggro or control), which is the type of flexibility you need in this matchup. The roles are very draw-dependent. If they have an early threat, you're either forced to answer it or race it with a threat of your own plus all of the burn that we run. If not, try to stick a threat of your own and play a control game until you win. I also strongly prefer non-Mana Leak counterspells in this matchup since winning counter wars requires efficiency (Spell Snare) and value (Remanding your countered spells to recast them). I run a 2 Mana Leak/2 Remand/2 Spell Snare split, but that's in a meta with more BGx and combo. If your meta is tons of Grixis control, then something like 1 Leak/3 Remand/2 Snare seems better. I like T-Maw a lot as a game 1 threat that I board out vs Grixis in favor of something better. In my list, that's Keranos, but you have him main board. I also run Elspeth, Sun's Champion, which is amazing at stabilizing basically any board state. She either wipes the board or makes tons of chump blockers that will eventually win the game on their own. She's incredible, and there's almost always time to land her in this matchup.
If I ran your list, I'd board in +1 Clique, +2 Dispel, +1 Negate, +1 Purge and take out -2 Mindcensor, -1 Thundermaw, -2 Mana Leak. I don't like Supreme Verdict because Grixis usually only runs 5 Tasigur/Gurmag Angler, which can be answered with Paths, Purge, Remand (huge tempo gain), Mana Leak, or Snap-Path/Purge. This lets you keep your own threats on board also. (Supreme Verdict can be a dead draw late if you're trying to race with an on-board threat.) I am not sold on Rest in Peace, but I haven't tried it. I don't think Spellskite is necessary. You can keep all the burn in the deck to race if it comes down to it. I actually like Helix better in this matchup than Bolt since many games end up being races.
Stoneforge Mystic would be sweet!
What does your SB look like at the moment, out of curiosity?
And yeah, Aven Mindcensor feels like a necessary evil at the moment. It can be a nice flash beater, get people's fetches, and pair nicely with our own Path to Exiles but it can be very lackluster sometimes. But without it, we are just so weak to Tron and Bloom Game 1 and those are some of our worst match-ups. I'm not particularly sold on Rest in Peace in my sideboard at all, and I may very well swap it for another grindy finisher like Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I just feel like some sort of graveyard hate might go a long way in the fringe dredge match-ups or against Grishoalbrand. Regardless, Elspeth, Sun's Champion does seem really nice in the current meta vs. all different kinds of decks.
I'll definitely try out that configuration and test out Elspeth as well and see how it gets me. I tend to have a good matchup against Grixis but they sometimes outgrind me and I still haven't learned when to pick fights and when not to. I guess that will just come with practice, though. Thanks a lot for the advice, demidev13!
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Mindcensor seems great main if you've got lots of Amulet Bloom running around in your meta. I go 1 Mindcensor, 2 Clique. I'd consider the same split if you're running into lots of Grixis control--just swap the maindeck Mindcensor with the Clique in the board, maybe? Elspeth is solid in a meta full of midrange decks. I'd classify Grixis as an aggro-control/midrange deck, and UWr and BGx also fit in there.
Good luck! Yeah, the matchup takes practice for sure since it gets tricky deciding who's the beatdown.
Seems great value with Restoration Angel. Definitely grind-oriented and competes with Thundermaw Hellkite or Keranos, God of Storms in the 5cmc slot, but it provides better stabilization than Keranos when we're behind (immediate body + spell) and gets value immediately whereas Thundermaw isn't even guaranteed to. I think it definitely warrants testing...thoughts?
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This time, I died by 2 pact of negation triggers off of hive mind with one mana short to pay them.
Were the pact copies both on the stack simultaneously? if so, you could have used the second one to counter the first, resulting in you only having to pay 3UU. Bloom is nigh-on unwinnable but knowing these little tricks helps a bit.
This time, I died by 2 pact of negation triggers off of hive mind with one mana short to pay them.
Were the pact copies both on the stack simultaneously? if so, you could have used the second one to counter the first, resulting in you only having to pay 3UU. Bloom is nigh-on unwinnable but knowing these little tricks helps a bit.
Holy moly, thank you for this tidbit. Hahaha!!!
I was playing against Bloom for first place at an FNM and had lethal on him with Colonnade next turn, so he went all-in with the gamble and played two Pacts hoping I wouldn't catch it. Needless to say it paid off - I'm never making that mistake again.
So, knowing that this isn't really tier 1 or tier 2, I still wanted to build this deck anyway, and I have to say, playtesting it last night against Affinity, burn, and some new fringe timewalk combo, I had a blast. I'm primarily a GBx player, but I'm looking for another deck to really grab me. I had most of this deck's pieces because of Splinter Twin, and while it's an amazing deck, I don't like it too much, it feels so clunky and every card's answer is so specific to what needs to be answered by the opponent. Relying on 4 bolts, 1 Roast, and 2 Electrolyze and hoping to god you have that Snapcaster to flash it back can be a bit frustrating against certain aggro decks, or Goyf, usually Goyf
I was pretty shocked to find that between Cliques, Angels, Geist, snapcaster and 10 burn spells that this tempo felt almost as smooth's as Twins when Twin isn't under immediate pressure by turn 2 or 3
Here's my deck, I have a ton of question for you guys though
Is the land base correct, it doesn't seem as set as stone as other decks but I want to make sure statistically they're going to give me my consistent colors quickly. The GQ's are mandatory due to Tron being so prevalent
So, I couldn't find Restoration Angels locally, despite having quite a few major stores around, so I'll order 3 of them online, but even then, Tron has been so stupidly popular locally that I'm not sure where I'd fit her, maybe in an Ajani spot and Aven, definitely the Lightning Angel spot, but I do enjoy the tempo possibilities it provides against combo decks and other blue decks so that I can peak at their hand and what to play around
Counterflux was an allstar so far, but I only played 6 games, that's not enough testing. I'm wondering how you guys feel about my counterspell numbers, or if it's too reactive, etc. We aren't Twin, so I feel like 4 Remands is a big mistake, but it feels good as a 2 of with our tempo spells.
Keranos and Ajani aren't set in stone either, I'm wondering how Elspeth, Knight Errant or Elspeth, Sun's Champion would perform in place (6 mana is a lot, even for standard though, maybe a good sideboard against GBx decks since it's either Pulse/Rhino or break)
Hellmaw/Stormbreath for 5 seems too huge of investment to be killed so easily by mainstaples like Terminate/bolt-snap-bolt/Dismember/Path
Is there any matchup Primers out there? Geist seems to be the fast wincon situations, While Colonnade is the grindy backup wincon, or wincon when the opponent is so creature heavy, but some tempo plays followed by tons of burn, and bolt snap bolt seem effective, too, especially if the opponent hits themselves for 3 or 4 damage from Lands. Snapcaster bolt shenanigans are certainly more consistent due to having 10 burn spells as opposed to the normal 6 from Twin
I'm just wondering how you guys play against other decks when Geist is in your hand. I'm a little afraid of dropping him on turn 3 and then not having any mana open for a counter, especially against decks like Twin or combo. Hell, even GBx could drop Lilly in response and laugh, bolting her means they 2 for 1 you. Do you primarily drop him for sure if you just have no counters in your hand? Twin has 8 creatures it can flash in to kill your primary wincon, what do you guys do? Do you swing overtime or only if you have a counter/burn spell in hand?
So, how do you guys do it? Against some decks, playing him on turn 3 and then feeling good about a path and bolt in your remaining hand are nice, but that's only against some decks. I'm wondering what the strategy of all this is against the more controlling decks. Geist getting in 6 feels like all you may need, it feels
What about Celestial Colonnade? If you're not afraid of a game ending response, do you guys activate the manland as soon as you have the mana to do so? Does it make you guys afraid?
Serum Visions feels too clunky for this deck, right? Some of you guys seem to cut a little of the counters for it, how's that working? Not too clunky with Colonnade? Since Geist can't be removed except by boardwipes and edict effects, doesn't it feel too often Colonnade will usually be bolted/terminated to death often?
I see some people splash black, but isn't this just getting way, way too greedy? The deck running red means Moon isn't quite as good, but people want to shut off a 4/4 flyer, so I imagine you really have to fetch smart in general, especially against decks running it. Is it really worth it?
Lots of good questions! This will open up the forum quite a bit this week. I'll do my best to answer it all. Please note a lot of this is opinion.
Your mana base looks solid. Please note it will change if you start changing your cards around.
Restoration Angels are hugely important. I run 3. They save geist from attacks (allowing the 4/4 to still swing in) or even blocks and can reset snapcasters to add an extra lightning bolt. Additionally they have flash so you can keep your options open (Do you hold up a counter or drop a lightning angel? If it's a restoration angel you don't have to decide until their turn.) I would cut the lightning angel and Ajani for them and maybe one other card if you want 3. (I run Ajani V sideboard).
You run a lot of counterspells. I think most lists here run 4-5 mainboard. I run 4 main and 4 side. This question is really a preference of play style. Do you like the more tempo control route or the midrange aggro route? Remand is an all star when you have a threat on the board. Otherwise leak is usually better.
Regarding matchup primers I think there is something a few page backs which simply lists what decks you are the beat down against and what matchups you are the control list about. That is generally the most important piece to know. Against Tron, you are on the bestdown. Their end game trumps yours. I commonly play a bolt snap bolt as soon as possible to put a clock on them.
If a deck can combo out against you then do not tap out. If however, they are a fair deck then I try to slam geist. I think GreatNate said that the TeamGeist guys say "when in doubt slam geist." And it works. They either have to respond to it or they die. Also get a feel from your opponent. If they are GBx and thoughtseized you turn 1 and did not take your geist then they probably have a liliana in their hands. How an opponent thoughtseizes you tells you a lot about them.
Yes activating colonnade can be a bit nerve-wracking. Usually your opponent's dead terminates and path to exiles become live then. It's all a matter of clock. This is modern. You need to put pressure on your opponent at some point. I usually wait until they seem to be out of gas if I can.
Regarding the black splash: Yes it can be way too greedy. On paper it makes the deck much worse against blood moon and it makes fetching lands much more difficult (as I noted a few posts ago sometimes you need to fetch the godless shrine instead of just a plains and eat the 2 life). However: it is a matter of play style. I have played both lists and I prefer the black splash. My list is much more threat dense than the stock UWR list. With nearly every card in my deck being able to deal damage the deck rarely runs out of gas.
I would like to point out that even with the black splash my win rate against blood moon and choke has still been 50%. If I am expecting blood moon I side out my black splash and run Ajani and wear/tears and engineered explosives instead.
I'd recommend you play the stock UWR for a bit more and if you feel like you want more threats (and more responses to creatures that lightning bolt cannot kill) then give Tasigur and Crackling Doom and K-Command a chance. The black splash is certainly more midrange and much less control.
Anyways hope that was helpful. Congratulations on finding a fun modern deck!
Awesome, definitely some good starting points. I looked back a few pages and saw the black splash discussion, I'll check out the recommendation for when to be in control and when to beat down
I can definitely shift Ajani to the sideboard, Lightning Angel was never really want I wanted to do, so definitely two Angels in the board, plus it just creates a further tempo plan, and saves Geist while the opponent takes 4 to the face, or of course, getting more value from Snap
What counter spells are you guys primarily running in the mainboard? And in what numbers? Mana leak is straight up good for the early aggro control plan, Spell Snare hits so many main staples in nearly every deck and counters counters...Tarm, Bob, Eidolon, Summer Bloom, Ravager, Plating, Snapcaster, etc.
2 Dispels seems mandatory in the SB, what are the other two you're running in the SB?
Good points on Colonnade, can't be afraid to just go for it since Modern can be fast
I'll definitely play around with the deck and see if I want to tune it to be aggro control or tempo
In the sideboard I run negates, dispel, and counterflux. I don't run the counterflux main, but if it works in your meta thats a nice "No."
Remember though, I play a more aggressive list mainboard. If you want a controlling list then spell snare can be great. I'm trying a 3-1 split remand to mana leak. Others have had success going 2-2 split or even a 3-2.
Definitely find out what list you like playing and then tune it from there. I, of course, prefer the more aggressive approach in such a fast meta, but it wasn't thaaaat long ago that this happened: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6698&d=238473
Edit: A note about counters: Just remember that they do not win you a game. All they do is stop someone else from winning in a 1-1 fashion. Counters are great against combo, but do a lot less in grindy matches where opponents run lots of 2 for 1s (like Liliana or Lingering Souls). I would be hesitant to run more than 5 mainboard. If you like the controlling route then I would try controlling cards that generate two for ones (like Aven Mindcensor and Shadow of Doubt) as opposed to counters #5-7 that cannot replace themselves and cannot generate a clock. I for one, do not like top decking mana leaks turn 10.
Makes sense. I suppose I was relying too much on the idea of seeing what they played at the end of their turn and either flashing in a threat, a burn, or a counter to a huge threat
Don't you guys find spell snare important to have the on the draw against tons of decks that have game winning 2 drops? I could see cutting a counter down. I'll have to tune it
What are you playing with in its stead? 2 serum visions, a 3rd Electrolyze?
So, I went back as far as page 160 to try and get a grasp of this deck, also just visited Great Nate's site, but was disappointed that it's out of date, I think he said technical issues with recording, or Europe, or something like that
Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the topic or anything, and I certainly have not been playing modern or Jeskai as long as some of you guys, but I feel like this black splash is kinda pulling this deck in too many directions. It's kind of like the Knightfall thread (which really shouldn't be in the tier 2 forums, in my opinion), there's too many ideas and not enough agreed upon, they can't agree on anything, and it comes off as confusing and disorganized, I imagine they'll drop back to developing after the pr-tour. It's good to have a general consensus about the cards set in stone, and then flex spots that can be agree'd can move around for tweaking
I just don't know if I can get behind a modern dark Jeskai deck, not as long as Blood Moon is a police format card, along with burn helping to police greedy mana bases. If it were viable, GBx players would be jamming Ajani Jund decks
The land base is fairly established as a general consensus for a typical URW midrange deck, right? Cool, minus or plus some GQ's, Castle, maybe +1 or -1 Colonnade
So, what creatures are for sure pretty set in stone? 4 Geist, 4 Snapcasters? At least 2 Restoration Angels? The 2 Vendilion Cliques, Aven Mindcensor, and big dragon are up for debate, right? Cool. Debates on Keranos, an Elspeth, and occasionally an Ajani? Ok
So, what spells are set in stone? 4 bolts, 3 mandatory Helix, 4 Path, 2 Electrolyze
What should be discussed is what counters SHOULD be set in stone, because there seems to be a lot of unclear and unfocused agreement on that. I read 5, but then between Great Nate's website and other lists on mtggoldfish I'm seeing a higher average than 5
Meta's change, things get faster or slower, so some cards NEED to adjust, so I understand that sometimes things need to change, which means Cryptic Command as a 2 of may not be good in a faster meta, maybe not even viable, or if Abzan is on the downswing, 2 Electrolyze may be better, etc. Same with sideboard, it depends on YOUR meta and an open-field expected meta. I think when there's a little debate about Twin players being unhappy about 2 Cryptics in this meta, that says something
I'm looking through a lot of lists though, and seeing that the counter-suite is closer to averaging 6 or 7ish cards, not 5. And I'm not sure this deck has enough of a wincon to truly want to run 4 remands. 1 or 2 sounds correct, it's similar to what Non-Twin Grixis, other UW/UWx decks are doing with remand
It also makes me wonder why Spell Snare isn't being used way more, it can counter huge threats while on the draw on turn 2. Game enders like Tarm, Affinity stuff, Dark Confidant, Eidolon, snaps, a bunch of counters, etc---why isn't it being taken into more consideration?
Serum Visions seems to be a little debated, too
I definitely think the more experienced players in this forum should really come to a consensus of what's pretty set in stone and what can really afford to be a flex spot. This deck has more wiggle room than say UR Twin
Sorry, didn't mean to rant, I just think this deck has potential to run as another 50/50 deck against an average, Minus RG Tron and Amulet, which prey on fair decks
I don't even want to discuss what this deck could look like if the heavy rumors of SFM is unbanned
I've never understood the discussion around Spell Snare, personally. It's always been an auto-include for me, anywhere between 2 and 4. The amount of things it hits in Modern is ridiculous and it remains relevant throughout the game in many matchups. When I topdeck a Spell Snare late game, well tough *****, I can still protect my bomb from Remands or Mana Leaks, keep myself alive on 4 life against Boros Charm, keep that Affinity player off his Cranial Plating insta-kill, counter that Scavenging Ooze that's about to eat my whole graveyard and net the opponent 5 life... Things could be worse. When I topdeck a Mana Leak late game however... well, things couldn't be much worse. At least Remand cycles.
I used to play both UWR and UWRb and the latter was a mess for me. Such a pain with the manabase and even though Kolaghan's Command and Tasigur are great it didn't seem worth it (Crackling Doom was mostly underwhelming). These days I'm on a UW Midrange build and loving it so far. Now if my Geist doesn't stick I can just rely on my Finks and Restos and countermagic to ride it out slowly. In the UWR days losing Geist gave me sweaty palms. On that subject, I could potentially see a spot for Finks in UWR. The mana is a bit awkward but people often don't realize how incredibly good it is and just let it resolve, and then a few turns down I'm up 8 life and beating them to death with a pesky 2/1 that just won't die. UWR needs the lifegain - let's face it, it's the only reason you guys run Helix, arguably the worst card in the deck (Mana Leak is a contender I'd say). My current UW build runs 4 Finks and I would never even consider cutting one, they've helped me pull through in so many games. Naturally if you're running UWRb though, Finks is a no-go.
As far as Cryptic goes, 3 feels like too much for me right now and I'm on UW, with a deck that's skewed more towards control than this one no less. I think that says enough. Having two CCs in your opening 7 is just awful.
Curious to see where this build goes from here, like I already said a bunch of pages back, this deck seems to have a bit of an identity crisis going on with all the countermagic variance and black splashing.
All in all, I think what applies to Geist itself applies to any Geist-centered deck as a whole: when it's good, it's great and games are over in no time. When it's bad, it really sucks and you won't be able to recover. Risky.
I saw your comment about the deck pulling itself apart in this thread. When Burn becomes tier 3 and Blood Moon is banned, then we can start discussing 4 color decks that are competitive
I don't know if Finks is where the deck wants to go though, that's too much durdling around and you don't want 4 creatures casted to block Geist and Rely on Colonnades.
A friend of mine plays Azorious, and it fits there where it's way more controlling and creates card advantage you can't come back from
Spell Snare never feels like a dead card, it wins counter wars, hits Tarmogoyf, Terminate, Scooze, etc
I do think Geist, with tempo beats/Colonnade as backup plans is the way go, and it shouldn't be diluted. I wonder what it would take to make this a strong tier 2 deck
But don't forget that Patrick Chaplin said that the difference between tier 1 decks and Tier 2 decks and even some decks like this are only minor in power level, we did see a URW Twin deck win a huge modern event recently.
With my black splash I have a 73% match win rate over 93 matches in the past 3 months. I am undefeated against burn and as I noted earlier I am 50/50 against choke and/or blood moon. I am willing to post my results if for some reason you doubt my success.
I think it is foolish to limit an archetype to innovation strictly because it has (on paper) a bad matchup against Burn or Blood Moon. The best way to beat either deck is smart sideboarding (as I noted above).
What's the difference between my list and a UWR list against blood moon anyways? 1 basic land? That's not a huge difference especially since my list is tuned around only needing one color of each mana anyways. I've won games without access to blue (because of land hate) with Restoration angel and bolt/helix to face. Redundancy in threat levels is the key to beating any hate anyways and the UWRb list has a lot more threat density than the traditional UWR. The black list undeniably grinds better than the the stock list. It is better against traditional fair decks such as GBx (especially with lingering souls in the side).
I feel that misplays with your manabase should not be blamed on the deck. Yes the black splash has more cerebral plays with fetches. Not understanding how to play the deck (or building a black splash variant with too few black shock lands) is not the fault of the deck.
Additionally I was the one who noted (including to you a few posts ago) that there is a clear division here in play style:
If you want to go more controlling run UWR with Cryptic Command.
If you want more aggressive midrange run the black splash with Tasigurs main.
Why should we limit the entire archetype to a stock list? The reason we are an archetype is because we all share the following shell:
24-25 lands
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
2+ Restoration Angels
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3-4 Lightning Helix
1+ Electrolyze
4+ Remand/Mana Leak/Other Counters
Beyond that shell our decks should be tuned based on playstyle preference and meta judgments. It would be foolish to limit potential simply because of one card. Affinity has not folded because of Kolaghan's Command. UWRb has not folded because of Blood Moon.
Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the topic or anything, and I certainly have not been playing modern or Jeskai as long as some of you guys, but I feel like this black splash is kinda pulling this deck in too many directions.
So, what creatures are for sure pretty set in stone? 4 Geist, 4 Snapcasters? At least 2 Restoration Angels? The 2 Vendilion Cliques, Aven Mindcensor, and big dragon are up for debate, right? Cool. Debates on Keranos, an Elspeth, and occasionally an Ajani? Ok
So, what spells are set in stone? 4 bolts, 3 mandatory Helix, 4 Path, 2 Electrolyze
I'm looking through a lot of lists though, and seeing that the counter-suite is closer to averaging 6 or 7ish cards, not 5. And I'm not sure this deck has enough of a wincon to truly want to run 4 remands. 1 or 2 sounds correct, it's similar to what Non-Twin Grixis, other UW/UWx decks are doing with remand
It also makes me wonder why Spell Snare isn't being used way more, it can counter huge threats while on the draw on turn 2. Game enders like Tarm, Affinity stuff, Dark Confidant, Eidolon, snaps, a bunch of counters, etc---why isn't it being taken into more consideration?
Serum Visions seems to be a little debated, too
I definitely think the more experienced players in this forum should really come to a consensus of what's pretty set in stone and what can really afford to be a flex spot. This deck has more wiggle room than say UR Twin
I don't even want to discuss what this deck could look like if the heavy rumors of SFM is unbanned
Cut down your post to the stuff i think i might be able to help with (or at least give my opinion):
1. Yes i agree black splash in many cases is actually just making this deck just a suite of good cards you hope to win with. Just my opinion, ive never moved to black splash, if i were to do that I`d be playing a different deck altogether.
2. Set in stone creatures: Lately what ive seen: 4Restoration angel, 4snapcaster, 2vendilion & 3-4giest. Although funny enough geist not even that far back was actually being sideboarded out a lot due to meta so again really depends.
3. Spells most common: 4Bolts, 4paths, 2remand, 2spell snare, 2eletrolyze any more or less of each is a personal preference/ meta thing.
4. Yes your right, no need to do to many remand, unless your playing this deck much more tempo style rather than a blend of control+ other styles.
5. serum visions is more for the UWR control build.
6. If stoneforge is unbanned. UWR will be tier 1 instantly, i already play batterskull in my main, I`ll drop resto angels for SFM any day.
I'm sorry, doom, I hope I didn't offend you, I'm just trying to wrap my head around a more airtight, common list that decks like gbx, twin, affinity, etc have
Once I play more with the WUr build I'll try the black splash out
I don't think anyone's talking about limiting an archetype, I just said the black splash was too much of a stretch for me - not worth the pain and risk for underwhelming cards such as Crackling Doom.
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If I ran your list, I'd board in +1 Clique, +2 Dispel, +1 Negate, +1 Purge and take out -2 Mindcensor, -1 Thundermaw, -2 Mana Leak. I don't like Supreme Verdict because Grixis usually only runs 5 Tasigur/Gurmag Angler, which can be answered with Paths, Purge, Remand (huge tempo gain), Mana Leak, or Snap-Path/Purge. This lets you keep your own threats on board also. (Supreme Verdict can be a dead draw late if you're trying to race with an on-board threat.) I am not sold on Rest in Peace, but I haven't tried it. I don't think Spellskite is necessary. You can keep all the burn in the deck to race if it comes down to it. I actually like Helix better in this matchup than Bolt since many games end up being races.
Stoneforge Mystic would be sweet!
Were the pact copies both on the stack simultaneously? if so, you could have used the second one to counter the first, resulting in you only having to pay 3UU. Bloom is nigh-on unwinnable but knowing these little tricks helps a bit.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
What does your SB look like at the moment, out of curiosity?
And yeah, Aven Mindcensor feels like a necessary evil at the moment. It can be a nice flash beater, get people's fetches, and pair nicely with our own Path to Exiles but it can be very lackluster sometimes. But without it, we are just so weak to Tron and Bloom Game 1 and those are some of our worst match-ups. I'm not particularly sold on Rest in Peace in my sideboard at all, and I may very well swap it for another grindy finisher like Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I just feel like some sort of graveyard hate might go a long way in the fringe dredge match-ups or against Grishoalbrand. Regardless, Elspeth, Sun's Champion does seem really nice in the current meta vs. all different kinds of decks.
I'll definitely try out that configuration and test out Elspeth as well and see how it gets me. I tend to have a good matchup against Grixis but they sometimes outgrind me and I still haven't learned when to pick fights and when not to. I guess that will just come with practice, though. Thanks a lot for the advice, demidev13!
Mindcensor seems great main if you've got lots of Amulet Bloom running around in your meta. I go 1 Mindcensor, 2 Clique. I'd consider the same split if you're running into lots of Grixis control--just swap the maindeck Mindcensor with the Clique in the board, maybe? Elspeth is solid in a meta full of midrange decks. I'd classify Grixis as an aggro-control/midrange deck, and UWr and BGx also fit in there.
Good luck! Yeah, the matchup takes practice for sure since it gets tricky deciding who's the beatdown.
Seems great value with Restoration Angel. Definitely grind-oriented and competes with Thundermaw Hellkite or Keranos, God of Storms in the 5cmc slot, but it provides better stabilization than Keranos when we're behind (immediate body + spell) and gets value immediately whereas Thundermaw isn't even guaranteed to. I think it definitely warrants testing...thoughts?
Holy moly, thank you for this tidbit. Hahaha!!!
I was playing against Bloom for first place at an FNM and had lethal on him with Colonnade next turn, so he went all-in with the gamble and played two Pacts hoping I wouldn't catch it. Needless to say it paid off - I'm never making that mistake again.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I was pretty shocked to find that between Cliques, Angels, Geist, snapcaster and 10 burn spells that this tempo felt almost as smooth's as Twins when Twin isn't under immediate pressure by turn 2 or 3
Here's my deck, I have a ton of question for you guys though
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Lightning Angel
1x Keranos, God of Storms
Spells:
1x Ajani Vengeant
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Helix
2x Spell snare
2x Remand
3x Mana Leak
1x Counterflux
2x Electrolyze
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
2x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Glacial Fortress
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Anger of the gods
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Blood Moon
1x Crumble to Dust
2x Celestial Purge
2x Dispel
2x Kor Firewalker
2x Stony Silence
1x Rest in Peace
1x Unsure, meta dependent
Is the land base correct, it doesn't seem as set as stone as other decks but I want to make sure statistically they're going to give me my consistent colors quickly. The GQ's are mandatory due to Tron being so prevalent
So, I couldn't find Restoration Angels locally, despite having quite a few major stores around, so I'll order 3 of them online, but even then, Tron has been so stupidly popular locally that I'm not sure where I'd fit her, maybe in an Ajani spot and Aven, definitely the Lightning Angel spot, but I do enjoy the tempo possibilities it provides against combo decks and other blue decks so that I can peak at their hand and what to play around
Counterflux was an allstar so far, but I only played 6 games, that's not enough testing. I'm wondering how you guys feel about my counterspell numbers, or if it's too reactive, etc. We aren't Twin, so I feel like 4 Remands is a big mistake, but it feels good as a 2 of with our tempo spells.
Keranos and Ajani aren't set in stone either, I'm wondering how Elspeth, Knight Errant or Elspeth, Sun's Champion would perform in place (6 mana is a lot, even for standard though, maybe a good sideboard against GBx decks since it's either Pulse/Rhino or break)
Hellmaw/Stormbreath for 5 seems too huge of investment to be killed so easily by mainstaples like Terminate/bolt-snap-bolt/Dismember/Path
Is there any matchup Primers out there? Geist seems to be the fast wincon situations, While Colonnade is the grindy backup wincon, or wincon when the opponent is so creature heavy, but some tempo plays followed by tons of burn, and bolt snap bolt seem effective, too, especially if the opponent hits themselves for 3 or 4 damage from Lands. Snapcaster bolt shenanigans are certainly more consistent due to having 10 burn spells as opposed to the normal 6 from Twin
I'm just wondering how you guys play against other decks when Geist is in your hand. I'm a little afraid of dropping him on turn 3 and then not having any mana open for a counter, especially against decks like Twin or combo. Hell, even GBx could drop Lilly in response and laugh, bolting her means they 2 for 1 you. Do you primarily drop him for sure if you just have no counters in your hand? Twin has 8 creatures it can flash in to kill your primary wincon, what do you guys do? Do you swing overtime or only if you have a counter/burn spell in hand?
So, how do you guys do it? Against some decks, playing him on turn 3 and then feeling good about a path and bolt in your remaining hand are nice, but that's only against some decks. I'm wondering what the strategy of all this is against the more controlling decks. Geist getting in 6 feels like all you may need, it feels
What about Celestial Colonnade? If you're not afraid of a game ending response, do you guys activate the manland as soon as you have the mana to do so? Does it make you guys afraid?
Serum Visions feels too clunky for this deck, right? Some of you guys seem to cut a little of the counters for it, how's that working? Not too clunky with Colonnade? Since Geist can't be removed except by boardwipes and edict effects, doesn't it feel too often Colonnade will usually be bolted/terminated to death often?
I see some people splash black, but isn't this just getting way, way too greedy? The deck running red means Moon isn't quite as good, but people want to shut off a 4/4 flyer, so I imagine you really have to fetch smart in general, especially against decks running it. Is it really worth it?
Alright, I'll stop here. Thanks guys!
Your mana base looks solid. Please note it will change if you start changing your cards around.
Restoration Angels are hugely important. I run 3. They save geist from attacks (allowing the 4/4 to still swing in) or even blocks and can reset snapcasters to add an extra lightning bolt. Additionally they have flash so you can keep your options open (Do you hold up a counter or drop a lightning angel? If it's a restoration angel you don't have to decide until their turn.) I would cut the lightning angel and Ajani for them and maybe one other card if you want 3. (I run Ajani V sideboard).
You run a lot of counterspells. I think most lists here run 4-5 mainboard. I run 4 main and 4 side. This question is really a preference of play style. Do you like the more tempo control route or the midrange aggro route? Remand is an all star when you have a threat on the board. Otherwise leak is usually better.
Regarding matchup primers I think there is something a few page backs which simply lists what decks you are the beat down against and what matchups you are the control list about. That is generally the most important piece to know. Against Tron, you are on the bestdown. Their end game trumps yours. I commonly play a bolt snap bolt as soon as possible to put a clock on them.
If a deck can combo out against you then do not tap out. If however, they are a fair deck then I try to slam geist. I think GreatNate said that the TeamGeist guys say "when in doubt slam geist." And it works. They either have to respond to it or they die. Also get a feel from your opponent. If they are GBx and thoughtseized you turn 1 and did not take your geist then they probably have a liliana in their hands. How an opponent thoughtseizes you tells you a lot about them.
Yes activating colonnade can be a bit nerve-wracking. Usually your opponent's dead terminates and path to exiles become live then. It's all a matter of clock. This is modern. You need to put pressure on your opponent at some point. I usually wait until they seem to be out of gas if I can.
Regarding the black splash: Yes it can be way too greedy. On paper it makes the deck much worse against blood moon and it makes fetching lands much more difficult (as I noted a few posts ago sometimes you need to fetch the godless shrine instead of just a plains and eat the 2 life). However: it is a matter of play style. I have played both lists and I prefer the black splash. My list is much more threat dense than the stock UWR list. With nearly every card in my deck being able to deal damage the deck rarely runs out of gas.
I would like to point out that even with the black splash my win rate against blood moon and choke has still been 50%. If I am expecting blood moon I side out my black splash and run Ajani and wear/tears and engineered explosives instead.
I'd recommend you play the stock UWR for a bit more and if you feel like you want more threats (and more responses to creatures that lightning bolt cannot kill) then give Tasigur and Crackling Doom and K-Command a chance. The black splash is certainly more midrange and much less control.
Anyways hope that was helpful. Congratulations on finding a fun modern deck!
I can definitely shift Ajani to the sideboard, Lightning Angel was never really want I wanted to do, so definitely two Angels in the board, plus it just creates a further tempo plan, and saves Geist while the opponent takes 4 to the face, or of course, getting more value from Snap
What counter spells are you guys primarily running in the mainboard? And in what numbers? Mana leak is straight up good for the early aggro control plan, Spell Snare hits so many main staples in nearly every deck and counters counters...Tarm, Bob, Eidolon, Summer Bloom, Ravager, Plating, Snapcaster, etc.
2 Dispels seems mandatory in the SB, what are the other two you're running in the SB?
Good points on Colonnade, can't be afraid to just go for it since Modern can be fast
I'll definitely play around with the deck and see if I want to tune it to be aggro control or tempo
Remember though, I play a more aggressive list mainboard. If you want a controlling list then spell snare can be great. I'm trying a 3-1 split remand to mana leak. Others have had success going 2-2 split or even a 3-2.
Definitely find out what list you like playing and then tune it from there. I, of course, prefer the more aggressive approach in such a fast meta, but it wasn't thaaaat long ago that this happened: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6698&d=238473
Edit: A note about counters: Just remember that they do not win you a game. All they do is stop someone else from winning in a 1-1 fashion. Counters are great against combo, but do a lot less in grindy matches where opponents run lots of 2 for 1s (like Liliana or Lingering Souls). I would be hesitant to run more than 5 mainboard. If you like the controlling route then I would try controlling cards that generate two for ones (like Aven Mindcensor and Shadow of Doubt) as opposed to counters #5-7 that cannot replace themselves and cannot generate a clock. I for one, do not like top decking mana leaks turn 10.
Don't you guys find spell snare important to have the on the draw against tons of decks that have game winning 2 drops? I could see cutting a counter down. I'll have to tune it
What are you playing with in its stead? 2 serum visions, a 3rd Electrolyze?
Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the topic or anything, and I certainly have not been playing modern or Jeskai as long as some of you guys, but I feel like this black splash is kinda pulling this deck in too many directions. It's kind of like the Knightfall thread (which really shouldn't be in the tier 2 forums, in my opinion), there's too many ideas and not enough agreed upon, they can't agree on anything, and it comes off as confusing and disorganized, I imagine they'll drop back to developing after the pr-tour. It's good to have a general consensus about the cards set in stone, and then flex spots that can be agree'd can move around for tweaking
I just don't know if I can get behind a modern dark Jeskai deck, not as long as Blood Moon is a police format card, along with burn helping to police greedy mana bases. If it were viable, GBx players would be jamming Ajani Jund decks
The land base is fairly established as a general consensus for a typical URW midrange deck, right? Cool, minus or plus some GQ's, Castle, maybe +1 or -1 Colonnade
So, what creatures are for sure pretty set in stone? 4 Geist, 4 Snapcasters? At least 2 Restoration Angels? The 2 Vendilion Cliques, Aven Mindcensor, and big dragon are up for debate, right? Cool. Debates on Keranos, an Elspeth, and occasionally an Ajani? Ok
So, what spells are set in stone? 4 bolts, 3 mandatory Helix, 4 Path, 2 Electrolyze
What should be discussed is what counters SHOULD be set in stone, because there seems to be a lot of unclear and unfocused agreement on that. I read 5, but then between Great Nate's website and other lists on mtggoldfish I'm seeing a higher average than 5
Meta's change, things get faster or slower, so some cards NEED to adjust, so I understand that sometimes things need to change, which means Cryptic Command as a 2 of may not be good in a faster meta, maybe not even viable, or if Abzan is on the downswing, 2 Electrolyze may be better, etc. Same with sideboard, it depends on YOUR meta and an open-field expected meta. I think when there's a little debate about Twin players being unhappy about 2 Cryptics in this meta, that says something
I'm looking through a lot of lists though, and seeing that the counter-suite is closer to averaging 6 or 7ish cards, not 5. And I'm not sure this deck has enough of a wincon to truly want to run 4 remands. 1 or 2 sounds correct, it's similar to what Non-Twin Grixis, other UW/UWx decks are doing with remand
It also makes me wonder why Spell Snare isn't being used way more, it can counter huge threats while on the draw on turn 2. Game enders like Tarm, Affinity stuff, Dark Confidant, Eidolon, snaps, a bunch of counters, etc---why isn't it being taken into more consideration?
Serum Visions seems to be a little debated, too
I definitely think the more experienced players in this forum should really come to a consensus of what's pretty set in stone and what can really afford to be a flex spot. This deck has more wiggle room than say UR Twin
Sorry, didn't mean to rant, I just think this deck has potential to run as another 50/50 deck against an average, Minus RG Tron and Amulet, which prey on fair decks
I don't even want to discuss what this deck could look like if the heavy rumors of SFM is unbanned
I used to play both UWR and UWRb and the latter was a mess for me. Such a pain with the manabase and even though Kolaghan's Command and Tasigur are great it didn't seem worth it (Crackling Doom was mostly underwhelming). These days I'm on a UW Midrange build and loving it so far. Now if my Geist doesn't stick I can just rely on my Finks and Restos and countermagic to ride it out slowly. In the UWR days losing Geist gave me sweaty palms. On that subject, I could potentially see a spot for Finks in UWR. The mana is a bit awkward but people often don't realize how incredibly good it is and just let it resolve, and then a few turns down I'm up 8 life and beating them to death with a pesky 2/1 that just won't die. UWR needs the lifegain - let's face it, it's the only reason you guys run Helix, arguably the worst card in the deck (Mana Leak is a contender I'd say). My current UW build runs 4 Finks and I would never even consider cutting one, they've helped me pull through in so many games. Naturally if you're running UWRb though, Finks is a no-go.
As far as Cryptic goes, 3 feels like too much for me right now and I'm on UW, with a deck that's skewed more towards control than this one no less. I think that says enough. Having two CCs in your opening 7 is just awful.
Curious to see where this build goes from here, like I already said a bunch of pages back, this deck seems to have a bit of an identity crisis going on with all the countermagic variance and black splashing.
All in all, I think what applies to Geist itself applies to any Geist-centered deck as a whole: when it's good, it's great and games are over in no time. When it's bad, it really sucks and you won't be able to recover. Risky.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I don't know if Finks is where the deck wants to go though, that's too much durdling around and you don't want 4 creatures casted to block Geist and Rely on Colonnades.
A friend of mine plays Azorious, and it fits there where it's way more controlling and creates card advantage you can't come back from
Spell Snare never feels like a dead card, it wins counter wars, hits Tarmogoyf, Terminate, Scooze, etc
I do think Geist, with tempo beats/Colonnade as backup plans is the way go, and it shouldn't be diluted. I wonder what it would take to make this a strong tier 2 deck
But don't forget that Patrick Chaplin said that the difference between tier 1 decks and Tier 2 decks and even some decks like this are only minor in power level, we did see a URW Twin deck win a huge modern event recently.
With my black splash I have a 73% match win rate over 93 matches in the past 3 months. I am undefeated against burn and as I noted earlier I am 50/50 against choke and/or blood moon. I am willing to post my results if for some reason you doubt my success.
I think it is foolish to limit an archetype to innovation strictly because it has (on paper) a bad matchup against Burn or Blood Moon. The best way to beat either deck is smart sideboarding (as I noted above).
What's the difference between my list and a UWR list against blood moon anyways? 1 basic land? That's not a huge difference especially since my list is tuned around only needing one color of each mana anyways. I've won games without access to blue (because of land hate) with Restoration angel and bolt/helix to face. Redundancy in threat levels is the key to beating any hate anyways and the UWRb list has a lot more threat density than the traditional UWR. The black list undeniably grinds better than the the stock list. It is better against traditional fair decks such as GBx (especially with lingering souls in the side).
I feel that misplays with your manabase should not be blamed on the deck. Yes the black splash has more cerebral plays with fetches. Not understanding how to play the deck (or building a black splash variant with too few black shock lands) is not the fault of the deck.
Additionally I was the one who noted (including to you a few posts ago) that there is a clear division here in play style:
If you want to go more controlling run UWR with Cryptic Command.
If you want more aggressive midrange run the black splash with Tasigurs main.
Why should we limit the entire archetype to a stock list? The reason we are an archetype is because we all share the following shell:
24-25 lands
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
2+ Restoration Angels
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3-4 Lightning Helix
1+ Electrolyze
4+ Remand/Mana Leak/Other Counters
Beyond that shell our decks should be tuned based on playstyle preference and meta judgments. It would be foolish to limit potential simply because of one card. Affinity has not folded because of Kolaghan's Command. UWRb has not folded because of Blood Moon.
Cut down your post to the stuff i think i might be able to help with (or at least give my opinion):
1. Yes i agree black splash in many cases is actually just making this deck just a suite of good cards you hope to win with. Just my opinion, ive never moved to black splash, if i were to do that I`d be playing a different deck altogether.
2. Set in stone creatures: Lately what ive seen: 4Restoration angel, 4snapcaster, 2vendilion & 3-4giest. Although funny enough geist not even that far back was actually being sideboarded out a lot due to meta so again really depends.
3. Spells most common: 4Bolts, 4paths, 2remand, 2spell snare, 2eletrolyze any more or less of each is a personal preference/ meta thing.
4. Yes your right, no need to do to many remand, unless your playing this deck much more tempo style rather than a blend of control+ other styles.
5. serum visions is more for the UWR control build.
6. If stoneforge is unbanned. UWR will be tier 1 instantly, i already play batterskull in my main, I`ll drop resto angels for SFM any day.
GWBoglesGW///URDelverUR WVial-knightsW
Once I play more with the WUr build I'll try the black splash out
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki