I think the number of Izzet Charm you want depends on a few things, primarily whether you're running the Gifts Ungiven SB or not. Those that are might want as many as 3 Izzet Charms (or 4 even!). The rest of us will probably settle at 1-2.
Point is, it's definitely playable in Modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Because you dont want the unburial rites target to get stuck on your hand.
Im sure i will be cutting at least one of my 2 magma jets for 1 charm, and maybe a spell peirce for the orther.
Because you dont want the unburial rites target to get stuck on your hand.
Im sure i will be cutting at least one of my 2 magma jets for 1 charm, and maybe a spell peirce for the orther.
This is what it looks like right now.
Most likely i will cut 2 magma jets por 2 izzet charms, and im seriously thinking about getting 2 SB shadow of doubt, the card is really strong right now.
The fetches take too much life, i dont want to bolt myself every game on turn 1 to drop a lynx. I run 9 while the normal is 12, i could cut a hallowed fountain to add another one, but so far that number has been enough, i want to get a fast start, not win the game with cats.
Seachrome proved to be a good turn 1 land, letting me play delver or lynx, and in case of lynx, letting me keep my fetch for turn 2, with minimal self damage.
And yes, i know i run helixes, but that doesnt mean i can just kill myself with my mana base.
The basics is cause of blood moon, the card is a pain to deal with even with annul, so i dont want to expose myself. Also, is nice to fetch every color when i get path´d.
The 4th path is more of a personal taste, i can perfectly well run 4, but i found that in most games 3 are enough to draw into and i normally just a need well timed one to get rid of something annoying and just win with delver or geist.
Goyfs can be dealt with with with snare or block+burn, angels are too slow to be a real worry, and finks, while annoying, are easily dealt with.
Except in the case of Jund, which is why i have another one on the SB.
So my roommate whomped up a RDW deck, and then proceeded to walk on me. I'm new to playing delver in general, but I just can't keep up with his burn and I can't stop him from just forked bolting all of my threats before they can do anything. Any tips?
I would drop the 2 pillar for spell pierce. We have enough removal. Pierce and Remand should help vs twin combo and tron, and keeping LIli off the board vs Jund.
So my roommate whomped up a RDW deck, and then proceeded to walk on me. I'm new to playing delver in general, but I just can't keep up with his burn and I can't stop him from just forked bolting all of my threats before they can do anything. Any tips?
From your list, I'd side out 4 Remand and 4 Lynx for the Pierces, Negate, Ajani, Firewalkers, and Burst Lightnings. Then play the match very patiently, you are ALWAYS the control deck in this matchup. Don't tap out for anything until you can hold up disruption mana (whether for his creatures or spells), and win off of a protected Geist, Firewalker, or Ajani. If you need more blockers, maybe keep in the Lynxes and scrap some of the removal or countermagic, depending on his list. Lynx is hard to kill if you don't fetch and attack aggressively, so force him to use his 3-damage spells on it. Your biggest game is casting early removal into Lightning Helix into Snapcaster on Lightning Helix. Firewalker should just win the game by itself if you protect it.
Keep in mind that your friend's Burn deck represents a small chunk of the format, and if it's tuned to beat you (maindeck Forked Bolts seems wrong otherwise), than you're just getting skewed results. What's his list look like, if you have it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Thanks for the quick reply, I'm picking up a playset of everything you have listed in the primer, I just need to figure out what hands to keep and what's a good mix for sb.
I would probably take out geists, you dont want to tap out, he´s slow, and easy to block. Lynxes would be my next candidate, but they at least can be decent bloquers, so i would keep them. Be smart with your fetches, and forked bolt wont be a problem.
Both pillars seems useless in that mu, so replace them.
Get in negate, kors, ajani and spellpierce.
From your list, I'd side out 4 Remand and 4 Lynx for the Pierces, Negate, Ajani, Firewalkers, and Burst Lightnings. Then play the match very patiently, you are ALWAYS the control deck in this matchup. Don't tap out for anything until you can hold up disruption mana (whether for his creatures or spells), and win off of a protected Geist, Firewalker, or Ajani. If you need more blockers, maybe keep in the Lynxes and scrap some of the removal or countermagic, depending on his list. Lynx is hard to kill if you don't fetch and attack aggressively, so force him to use his 3-damage spells on it. Your biggest game is casting early removal into Lightning Helix into Snapcaster on Lightning Helix. Firewalker should just win the game by itself if you protect it.
Keep in mind that your friend's Burn deck represents a small chunk of the format, and if it's tuned to beat you (maindeck Forked Bolts seems wrong otherwise), than you're just getting skewed results. What's his list look like, if you have it?
So what changes are you guys making when RtR hits? The charms look nice and the 1/2 for 1 that you can exile an instant/sorc for two +1/+1 counters should at least be tested for those who don't like Steppe Lynx.
I haven't tuned this deck in quite a while, it works very well as it is but I think when the new set releases Im going to try two Izzet Charms over Spell Pierces and maybe even the Elemental over the Lynx just to playtest and see how he does. Sometimes removal just simply isn't useful in your hand, seems a bit less situational over Lynx (maybe).
I've already turned my 3 flex spots into 2 Izzet Charm 1 Pillar of Flame. (Among other things, they were 2 Molten Rain 1 Pillar and 2 Pillar 1 Traft.) Izzet Charm has been awesome when I've been testing other decks and it's still good here.
I tried Nivmagus Elemental in a Grixis deck with targeted discard, cheap counterspells, and cantrips, and it was mediocre at best against non-blue decks. I can't quite recommend it here, especially since it cannot cooperate with Tiago, but it might behave differently in a deck with far fewer disruption spells.
Im tempted to try one cyclonic rift at least in the SB, the ability to return annoying permanents is good, and if the game extends too long and our strategy starts to fail, it can be a good way to get back on track.
I would probably take out geists, you dont want to tap out, he´s slow, and easy to block. Lynxes would be my next candidate, but they at least can be decent bloquers, so i would keep them. Be smart with your fetches, and forked bolt wont be a problem.
Both pillars seems useless in that mu, so replace them.
Get in negate, kors, ajani and spellpierce.
I think you're right about everything here except the Geists. You need a victory condition to stay on the board, and Geist is it. He can close the game out faster than anything else in our deck, especially if the RDW player has no blockers. Trying to get there with a couple Firewalkers isn't a great plan, and the rest of our dudes are easily burned if they look like a threat. RDW has no maindeck answers for Geist, and probably very few post-board. Sure, they can block, but that means they aren't attacking you, which is absolutely fine. We're going to be actively removing their dudes anyway, and most of them don't stick around very long in the first place. It might be right to cut down to 2-3 Geists, but I'd never cut them completely against RedRemoval.dec.
Jmills, that's definitely a rogue RDW build, and I wouldn't stress too much about your matchup there. Test it, get good at beating him as often as possible, but realize that it's not a mainstream build. Bump in the Night decks are more common, so it's good to have a plan against Red in general, but don't lose sleep over it.
As for the changes with RTR, I'm basically just testing out 2 Izzet Charms in the maindeck. Not much else changes for me yet, but it's possible that a couple other cards may be good additions as well.
I beat uw restoration mid range 2-1, lost to soul sisters 0-2, won the mirror 2-1, and beat rug delver 2-0. After last night I decided some changes needed to be made, especially to the side board. From the main deck I went -1 Magma Jet +1 Grim Lavamancer mostly because 15 threats felt too light and lavamancer is great in a lot of match ups, we seem to fill the graveyard quickly. From the sideboard I went -3 relic of progenitus -1 sowing salt -1 smash to smithereens +2 kor firewalker +1 phantasmal image +1 molten rain +1 shattering spree. Relic of progenitus is a solid card but it is unnecessary, living end is practically nonexistent and kor firewalker does a fine job against storm while also being great in the mirror and against burn, he is also decent against jund. I added a phantasmal image to both help in the matches where I feel threat light and give me answers to gifts and geist of saint traft in the mirror. Geist is very problematic for this deck (surprise surprise) and I want to make sure I can answer without sacrificing my own. Sowing salt is great against tron but probably too slow a lot of the time, and not good enough against valakut. Molten rain has better value against valakut while also being good against tron (though not great). Smash to smithereens feels very mediocre, killing one artifact against affinity is often not enough. I do like it's value against sword of war and peace in the uw match as well as isochron scepter in the mirror and vedalken shackles out of rug. When the new set is released I plan to cut the mana leak and most likely a forked bolt from my main for 2 izzet charm but beyond that I really like where the deck is at.
Did you play against the regular Mirror or the Tribal Flames deck? I'm curious to hear who is favored in that matchup, my hunch is that their painful mana base makes any advantage they might have null and void, but I want to verify that theory. Let us know if you get some XP on that.
Frickin' soul sisters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Point is, it's definitely playable in Modern.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Im sure i will be cutting at least one of my 2 magma jets for 1 charm, and maybe a spell peirce for the orther.
What does your list look like atm?
Molten Rain + Path to Exile seems really bad.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
Spells:
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Magma Jet
2 Spellpierce/spell snare (i still cant decide)
2 Seacrome coast
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Steam Vents
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Combust
1 Flash Freeze
1 Dispel
2 Smash to smithereens
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Path to Exile
1 Pillar of flames
1 Echoing Truth
2 Annul
This is what it looks like right now.
Most likely i will cut 2 magma jets por 2 izzet charms, and im seriously thinking about getting 2 SB shadow of doubt, the card is really strong right now.
Seachrome proved to be a good turn 1 land, letting me play delver or lynx, and in case of lynx, letting me keep my fetch for turn 2, with minimal self damage.
And yes, i know i run helixes, but that doesnt mean i can just kill myself with my mana base.
The basics is cause of blood moon, the card is a pain to deal with even with annul, so i dont want to expose myself. Also, is nice to fetch every color when i get path´d.
The 4th path is more of a personal taste, i can perfectly well run 4, but i found that in most games 3 are enough to draw into and i normally just a need well timed one to get rid of something annoying and just win with delver or geist.
Goyfs can be dealt with with with snare or block+burn, angels are too slow to be a real worry, and finks, while annoying, are easily dealt with.
Except in the case of Jund, which is why i have another one on the SB.
Here's my current list:
4 steppe lynx
4 snapcaster mage
3 geist of saint traft
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 serum visions
4 path to exile
2 pillar of flame
1 mana leak
4 remand
4 arid mesa
3 misty rainforest
2 Marsh flats
1 sacred foundry
2 steam vents
2 hallowed fountain
1 moorland haunt
1 mountain
1 plains
1 island
1 annul
2 spell Pierce
2 burst lightning
2 kor firewalker
1 negate
1 smash to smithereens
1 torpor orb
4 molten rain
1 ajani vengeant
From your list, I'd side out 4 Remand and 4 Lynx for the Pierces, Negate, Ajani, Firewalkers, and Burst Lightnings. Then play the match very patiently, you are ALWAYS the control deck in this matchup. Don't tap out for anything until you can hold up disruption mana (whether for his creatures or spells), and win off of a protected Geist, Firewalker, or Ajani. If you need more blockers, maybe keep in the Lynxes and scrap some of the removal or countermagic, depending on his list. Lynx is hard to kill if you don't fetch and attack aggressively, so force him to use his 3-damage spells on it. Your biggest game is casting early removal into Lightning Helix into Snapcaster on Lightning Helix. Firewalker should just win the game by itself if you protect it.
Keep in mind that your friend's Burn deck represents a small chunk of the format, and if it's tuned to beat you (maindeck Forked Bolts seems wrong otherwise), than you're just getting skewed results. What's his list look like, if you have it?
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Both pillars seems useless in that mu, so replace them.
Get in negate, kors, ajani and spellpierce.
This is the list he's currently playing with:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7762632&postcount=139
Not him, just one that he liked when he was looking around.
I haven't tuned this deck in quite a while, it works very well as it is but I think when the new set releases Im going to try two Izzet Charms over Spell Pierces and maybe even the Elemental over the Lynx just to playtest and see how he does. Sometimes removal just simply isn't useful in your hand, seems a bit less situational over Lynx (maybe).
I tried Nivmagus Elemental in a Grixis deck with targeted discard, cheap counterspells, and cantrips, and it was mediocre at best against non-blue decks. I can't quite recommend it here, especially since it cannot cooperate with Tiago, but it might behave differently in a deck with far fewer disruption spells.
I think you're right about everything here except the Geists. You need a victory condition to stay on the board, and Geist is it. He can close the game out faster than anything else in our deck, especially if the RDW player has no blockers. Trying to get there with a couple Firewalkers isn't a great plan, and the rest of our dudes are easily burned if they look like a threat. RDW has no maindeck answers for Geist, and probably very few post-board. Sure, they can block, but that means they aren't attacking you, which is absolutely fine. We're going to be actively removing their dudes anyway, and most of them don't stick around very long in the first place. It might be right to cut down to 2-3 Geists, but I'd never cut them completely against RedRemoval.dec.
Jmills, that's definitely a rogue RDW build, and I wouldn't stress too much about your matchup there. Test it, get good at beating him as often as possible, but realize that it's not a mainstream build. Bump in the Night decks are more common, so it's good to have a plan against Red in general, but don't lose sleep over it.
As for the changes with RTR, I'm basically just testing out 2 Izzet Charms in the maindeck. Not much else changes for me yet, but it's possible that a couple other cards may be good additions as well.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
1 Magma Jet
1 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
1 Negate
1 Pillar of Flame
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sowing Salt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Threads of Disloyalty
All the lists in the daily (including some interesting tribal flames wur decks) can be found here:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4392674
I beat uw restoration mid range 2-1, lost to soul sisters 0-2, won the mirror 2-1, and beat rug delver 2-0. After last night I decided some changes needed to be made, especially to the side board. From the main deck I went -1 Magma Jet +1 Grim Lavamancer mostly because 15 threats felt too light and lavamancer is great in a lot of match ups, we seem to fill the graveyard quickly. From the sideboard I went -3 relic of progenitus -1 sowing salt -1 smash to smithereens +2 kor firewalker +1 phantasmal image +1 molten rain +1 shattering spree. Relic of progenitus is a solid card but it is unnecessary, living end is practically nonexistent and kor firewalker does a fine job against storm while also being great in the mirror and against burn, he is also decent against jund. I added a phantasmal image to both help in the matches where I feel threat light and give me answers to gifts and geist of saint traft in the mirror. Geist is very problematic for this deck (surprise surprise) and I want to make sure I can answer without sacrificing my own. Sowing salt is great against tron but probably too slow a lot of the time, and not good enough against valakut. Molten rain has better value against valakut while also being good against tron (though not great). Smash to smithereens feels very mediocre, killing one artifact against affinity is often not enough. I do like it's value against sword of war and peace in the uw match as well as isochron scepter in the mirror and vedalken shackles out of rug. When the new set is released I plan to cut the mana leak and most likely a forked bolt from my main for 2 izzet charm but beyond that I really like where the deck is at.
Did you play against the regular Mirror or the Tribal Flames deck? I'm curious to hear who is favored in that matchup, my hunch is that their painful mana base makes any advantage they might have null and void, but I want to verify that theory. Let us know if you get some XP on that.
Frickin' soul sisters.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB