As a traditional storm player, this variant looks sweet. I've watched some yt gameplays and at first I thought the deck will be a bit like the storm with 0 mana artifacts and equipments, but it looked way better even when the pilot had to dig a lot (probably due to having only 1 grapeshot) until killing the opponent. Going off T2 would be nice, but how consistent is that? Dodging Narset is nice, but is it worth being more 'glass-cannon'-ish?
The option to build up resources is still there. That part was not taken away. You can play 2 lands then play the field if you like. But I made a list (that probably could use some tweaks) to enable faster wins when necessary.
To do that I did cut some sorcery speed cantrips. I swapped them out with cantrips that also untap the land. To make it more likely you won't fizzle out. Like the origional version couldn't go off without Puppetry. My version can dig a little and play shadows to dig more and find the puppet master card. Slight changes. May be better, may be worse.
I've found I can generally go off with two or more untappers not named Psychic Puppetry in my initial combo turn hand and find Psychic Puppetry mid-combo quickly enough. (This is with the regular build.)
@megatog201 How do you actually build enough storm, though? I've had a look at that shadow list and I think it's a bit of a nombo. The cycling creatures don't build storm and shadow can only return cycled/discarded stuff, none of the spells. So it's not in fact an instant speed past in flames.
Also, being able to go off on T2 is nice and all, but that really requires you to find your 4-off Field in the top 10 cards or so because you only have time to cast 1 cantrip. I don't think the consistency is there to really bend over backwards for a more likely T2 kill.
Anyway, tonight I'm going to play a UG version as I really dislike the dependency of a 4-off without tutors, so I'm playing 2 Sylvan Scrying main. I also like green sideboard options so I'm going to test the following list:
An initial list I saw that played green for Scying didn't play the cycle lands which I think is a mistake. You have to be able to turn it into a cantrip when you have plenty of mana mid-combo. Merchant scroll and Shimmer were initially 2 Vizier of Tumbling Sands but I found them clunky. Yes, they're a cantrip ritual but outside of the combo it does little to nothing, doesn't work with PIF, doesn't build storm and I would rather have a 5th copy of puppetry, the engine twiddle, and another option to dig for Field or other relevant cards.
In goldfishing I noticed that you need quite a few rituals (so actual 1 mana twiddles, not the spliced puppetry) to be able to use PiF or regular cantrips. Going peer + splice into peer + splice is basically just spinning your wheels and will make you fizzle if you don't somehow generate mana for PIF or other cantrips to find more stuff.
Looking forward to play this tonight :). It looks much more like my favorite combo deck Jeskai Ascendancy Combo than regular Gifts Storm, so no matter my record tonight, I'm sure at I'll be having a good time ;).
[quote from="R3doxNL »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/813332-arcane-storm-twiddle-me-this?comment=29"]@megatog201 How do you actually build enough storm, though? I've had a look at that shadow list and I think it's a bit of a nombo. The cycling creatures don't build storm and shadow can only return cycled/discarded stuff, none of the spells. So it's not in fact an instant speed past in flames.
To answer your question. These are the cards that add storm count-
4 Shadow Of Doubt
4 Dream's Grip
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Reach Through Mists
1 Twiddle
4 Ideas Unbound
2 Grapeshot
1 Sylvan Scrying
Also at the end of the combo if you need 1 or 2 more storm counts you can cast any of the cycling cards.
The idea is to basically run through your deck. If you want you can start with the instants. Draw 1, look at the top 5, etc. Idea here is to build a hand with as many Shadow of Doubts as possible. Start cycling. Cast Shadow to get the cycled cards back and go back to arcane instants. Only Shadow and cycle when you begin to fizzle.
Remember once you have a critical mass of mana you don't have to keep on the instant plan. At this point you can allow the field trigger to resolve. You don't need mana anymore.
Alternatively, once you reach a critical mass of cards in hand you can just stop cycling and raise storm count by using strictly arcane spells.
All 12 of the cycling creatures are at worst a redraw. 4 of them produce mana. When you get to a state where you have 2-4 Viziers and rotation and 2 or 3 Shadows thats somewhere between 6 and 12 extra mana and cards drawn.
Lastly about my list, since you are drawing the vast majority of your deck, or the entire deck if you so choose, the need to actually have storm count >/= life total isn't nearly as needed. You can simply grapeshot then cast the second grapeshot. Storm of 8 or 9 would do the trick.
I hope that clears up any confusion.
As for your list. I like it. I would try to find a way to include 1 or more Depths though. Playing that and putting the card you want on top then cracking a fetch after you draw it is really strong. Good luck and I hope it goes well
Thats interesting, i guess it stretches the opponents resources to deal with different threats... and it does provide a kill that is not shutdown by narset parter of veils (for this deck at least)
To answer your question. These are the cards that add storm count-
4 Shadow Of Doubt
4 Dream's Grip
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Reach Through Mists
1 Twiddle
4 Ideas Unbound
2 Grapeshot
1 Sylvan Scrying
Also at the end of the combo if you need 1 or 2 more storm counts you can cast any of the cycling cards.
The idea is to basically run through your deck. If you want you can start with the instants. Draw 1, look at the top 5, etc. Idea here is to build a hand with as many Shadow of Doubts as possible. Start cycling. Cast Shadow to get the cycled cards back and go back to arcane instants. Only Shadow and cycle when you begin to fizzle.
Remember once you have a critical mass of mana you don't have to keep on the instant plan. At this point you can allow the field trigger to resolve. You don't need mana anymore.
Alternatively, once you reach a critical mass of cards in hand you can just stop cycling and raise storm count by using strictly arcane spells.
All 12 of the cycling creatures are at worst a redraw. 4 of them produce mana. When you get to a state where you have 2-4 Viziers and rotation and 2 or 3 Shadows thats somewhere between 6 and 12 extra mana and cards drawn.
Lastly about my list, since you are drawing the vast majority of your deck, or the entire deck if you so choose, the need to actually have storm count >/= life total isn't nearly as needed. You can simply grapeshot then cast the second grapeshot. Storm of 8 or 9 would do the trick.
I hope that clears up any confusion.
As for your list. I like it. I would try to find a way to include 1 or more Depths though. Playing that and putting the card you want on top then cracking a fetch after you draw it is really strong. Good luck and I hope it goes well
Ah, I see. I suppose that works but the question then becomes: "how does that play out when you don't combo"? As a Jeskai Ascendancy Combo player, to me it seems that as in JAC, the issue isn't comboing off successfully (though, more on that later), but rather getting to your combo. What makes JAC good (not saying it is actually good, but a good aspect of it) is that its combo is also the way to get there, as in, the cantrips. Tons of people in the JAC thread want to add cards that add infinite combos to the deck which is useless because fizzling is very rarely the issue, actually starting to combo is. Those cycling creatures and shadow don't seem to do all that much if you're not comboing, which makes me not want to go that route.
After having played in an FNM, I'm afraid a 21st land is probably needed (lotus field itself doesn't count for turns 1 and 2) and a halimar depth or another lonely sandbar are the prime candidates. Another option I'm considering is the UG temple that scries 1.
Tolaria west via transmute fetches the lotus fields? Tho being green, sylvan scrying is nice
True, but I expected that to be too slow and clunky as it doesn't naturally lead into T3 Lotus Field and, more importantly, requires you to have 3 lands in play before you can field, which, in my experience so far, is pretty ambitious in a deck with effectively 16-17 lands.
Anyway, last Friday I played an FNM and went a spectacular 1-3. Before you stop reading, let me say that I hadn't goldfished much (maybe 1 or 2 hands the night before as I got the last cards I needed in the mail) and it was (obviously) at the end of a tiring work week. Anyway, this is how it all went down:
Round 1, UW Control
So, this was a nice start of the FNM with a matchup that has counterspells and potentially annoying stuff like Narset. On the other hand, this is where I have Defense Grid and Veil of Summer for in the SB.
Game 1. I get fairly smoothly to lotus field and attempt to go off but fizzle after firing off 2 ideas unbound as I can't find a puppetry or other twiddles. I ditch 5 lands and a scrying or something ridiculous like that. Two turns later I finally find what I need but a Narset has come down since then, to compliment his JTMS, and I don't find echoing truth in time.
Game 2 (mull to 6). I lotus field and try to go off but end up with 3 puppetry in hand and nothing else. I die to narset + new ashiok making everything impossible. Veil was nice as it potentially let me protect against a ravenous trap or counter while drawing a card but sadly it drew more puppetries rather than something to do with it.
That game felt like the nut-unlucky, but as I have no recording of it I can't say for sure that I made the right decisions while comboing. Looking at what I've learned so far and in goldfishing much more with it, I think it's safe to say I valued card drawing too much over making mana and going for past in flames, which makes it much harder to combo off.
Anyway, on to round 2, Mono-R prison:
Game 1 I mull to 5 and he goes T3 Koth into T4 little Karn. Because he has koth and has 3 mountains in play, he can get lattice and play it next turn so I have to go for it here. After building storm 18 while resolving a peer through depth, I have the choice of getting grapeshot or another peer. This is funny because I can't make enough properly colored mana to be able to grapeshot for 20 so I have to take peer and continue. After generating well over 20 storm (this includes a PiF), I fizzle because I found/took so few twiddles that I can't continue. That was sad. Hilarious, but sad.
Game 2 he goes T1 Eidolon of the great revel, T2 blood moon and I'm not even close to playing magic.
Round 3, Budget GW Bogles
Game 1 (mull to 5), he has no idea what I'm doing as I dig for field, but that doesn't really matter as he can't interact anyway. Because he goes all-in on a kor spirit dance, I technically can interact with him but I don't find my echoing truth. However, I just combo and it doesn't matter.. right? Except I fizzle and die, again. I'm not exactly sure what went wrong this time, but a fizzle nonetheless.
Game 2 (mull to 6) I have a Thing in the Ice that slows him down a lot because he can't play anything into it. When I finally flip it because I can go off next turn if needed anyway, he condemns it on attack and then plays spirit dancer with a bunch of auras. Now I have to go off and I actually manage this time. Probably because I had lotus field already in play + 2 more lands when I did so I had plenty of mana.
Game 3 I mull to 5 but T3 combo the first time this FNM. yay!
Round 4, bant lords (mirror entity, lord of the unreal, phantasmal image, that kind of stuff).
Game 1 (mull to 6). My opponent usually plays bant spirits so I put him on this and keep trying to play around spell queller. He doesn't have that (or any spirits, really) but assembles a crappy board with Knight of Autumn + a copy of it, collector ouphe and bird/noble. I go off but fizzle (yay!) and have to grapeshot his board away. This gave me enough time to go off a few turns later anyway so I win after all.
Game 2 (mull to 5) I fail horribly. He has an eidolon of rhetoric and I form the plan to EoT bounce it into combo, but somehow trick myself into thinking I can spend my mana on merchant scroll, so cannot bounce it. Sadly, on his turn he plays mirror entity and lord of the unreal, though I don't quite realize how sad this is just yet. On my turn, thinking he messed up tapping out I try to bounce the eidolon and he activates entity for 0, pointing out that his eidolon is now a 1/1 hexproof and I scoop in shame.
Game 3 he assembles entity + lords and wrecks my Thing in the Ice plan by making all his creatures horrors when I flip thing.. doh. Did I mention that playing Friday Night after a tiring work week is not optimal? Shortly after he plays eidolon again and I'm locked out.
So. This FNM at least cured me from the idea of playing this in GP Ghent this week (much to the relief of my teammates), but it also taught me that this deck is much more complicated to play than Gift Storm or JAC. Goldfishing it since then I've been going off successfully T3 or 4 consistently, so there's clearly potential here and I'll be sure to play it more in upcoming FNMs or other events I don't care as much about in regard to results.
What bugged me so far was that you need 2 land (realistically) before playing Lotus Field, but you only have 16 non-lotus field lands (or 17). Most of my mulligans that night were due to too few (non-lotus field) lands. It was amusing to mull away 2 lotus fields the first time, not so much the 3+ other times..
Also, needing both the arcane package which depends on puppetry and the twiddles to actually make mana it seems like you need so much to actually go off that T3 is probably an optimistic scenario. Of course, as with any combo deck you should figure out when you have to go for it and when you can wait, but simply being able to twiddle your field T3 and having 1 draw spell is far from reliable enough. Fortunately, as long as you don't go nuts with Ideas Unbound, you can simply try again later, knowing your main combo piece is safe and can basically not be touched.
Sorry for those less than satisfying results. I completely understand what you are saying about reaching the combo. My variant lacks visions and slight. I'm sure the correct build will be found, but I also see you started to combo but the fizzle was real. That is where my version shines. Drawing the extra cards per shadow drawn makes it less likely to fizzle. I'm in the process of collecting the deck now, will be slow, but hoping just cutting a few cards here and there will lead to the best build.
I do agree that a few more lands are needed. I think probably 22 will be a good number to start with. Only need 2 nonfield lands, so 18 with a few cantrips should be close to right. My build I'm trying to reduce the number by doing a visions'esk effect with depts and fetches.
I do also state that you dont need to go for it until you have to. Generally that means before narset can be played against aggro decks and by turn 3 against burn and heavy aggro. Also sometimes the super aggro decks just draw dont draw gas. Too many lands. Not enough. Too many 2 drops etc.
Tolaria west via transmute fetches the lotus fields? Tho being green, sylvan scrying is nice
True, but I expected that to be too slow and clunky as it doesn't naturally lead into T3 Lotus Field and, more importantly, requires you to have 3 lands in play before you can field, which, in my experience so far, is pretty ambitious in a deck with effectively 16-17 lands.
sorry about the results
on tolaria west:
ooo I see it differently, if I got it early, I would likely play it as one of my land drops. I don't think tolaria west's role is only to fetch. It is a bad land as well as a bad fetch... but it does both in one card. Early it is a bad land, mid game if you still haven got your lotus field it is a fetch, when you are comboing you can fetch a lonely sandbar to draw a card (4 mana 2 cards to draw a card yes its bad :p) ... it is not very good at each individual task, but it houses them all in one card.
Well, not playing it all that well and having poor draws + poor matchup(s) didn't help. Since then it goldfished quite well and last night in a testing session I managed to beat Mardu Shadow through disruption, going 2-1. It felt pretty solid that they can only interact via discard and despite having tidehollow scullers in addition to the usual suspects, it didn't seem to be so bad. As usual, discard only works if you back it up with a clock. It's still a lot of fun to weasel yourself out of a sticky situation and comboing off against the odds like with JAC, but removing most of the angles of disruption available against JAC.
@arcane7828
Fair enough. It is indeed pretty strong to have a land serve 2 purposes and I might play 1 as my 21st land or even 2 if I also replace an island. Having it as 'the tutor' I think is an issue though, as mentioned before, because it requires so much land and is so slow. With spells like Shimmer, Ideas and Peer (or the cmc1 cantrips) you'd also love to be able to set up your combo turn on turn 2 so if you play a ton of taplands, that will be hard to do.
Having played a sideboarded game with Thing in the Ice and thinking about it some more, I feel like I'd rather play Aria of Flame instead. This deck is not particularly good at flipping thing as it doesn't play manamorphose and doesn't want to just spew twiddles. Yes, if they board out all removal it's great but how many decks can really do that? Also, would a smart opponent not consider Thing and leave something in? Just not playing any creatures at all and having an enchantment, something that generally needs a more specific, less frequently played card to remove could be safer and thus more likely to succeed. Added bonus is that Aria can slowly kill a Narset or other annoying planeswalkers.
Well, not playing it all that well and having poor draws + poor matchup(s) didn't help. Since then it goldfished quite well and last night in a testing session I managed to beat Mardu Shadow through disruption, going 2-1. It felt pretty solid that they can only interact via discard and despite having tidehollow scullers in addition to the usual suspects, it didn't seem to be so bad. As usual, discard only works if you back it up with a clock. It's still a lot of fun to weasel yourself out of a sticky situation and comboing off against the odds like with JAC, but removing most of the angles of disruption available against JAC.
@arcane7828
Fair enough. It is indeed pretty strong to have a land serve 2 purposes and I might play 1 as my 21st land or even 2 if I also replace an island. Having it as 'the tutor' I think is an issue though, as mentioned before, because it requires so much land and is so slow. With spells like Shimmer, Ideas and Peer (or the cmc1 cantrips) you'd also love to be able to set up your combo turn on turn 2 so if you play a ton of taplands, that will be hard to do.
Having played a sideboarded game with Thing in the Ice and thinking about it some more, I feel like I'd rather play Aria of Flame instead. This deck is not particularly good at flipping thing as it doesn't play manamorphose and doesn't want to just spew twiddles. Yes, if they board out all removal it's great but how many decks can really do that? Also, would a smart opponent not consider Thing and leave something in? Just not playing any creatures at all and having an enchantment, something that generally needs a more specific, less frequently played card to remove could be safer and thus more likely to succeed. Added bonus is that Aria can slowly kill a Narset or other annoying planeswalkers.
I know this has been mentioned before but I haven't had a chance to play test but how about the Kiki-Jiki combo in the sideboard?
Well, not playing it all that well and having poor draws + poor matchup(s) didn't help. Since then it goldfished quite well and last night in a testing session I managed to beat Mardu Shadow through disruption, going 2-1. It felt pretty solid that they can only interact via discard and despite having tidehollow scullers in addition to the usual suspects, it didn't seem to be so bad. As usual, discard only works if you back it up with a clock. It's still a lot of fun to weasel yourself out of a sticky situation and comboing off against the odds like with JAC, but removing most of the angles of disruption available against JAC.
@arcane7828
Fair enough. It is indeed pretty strong to have a land serve 2 purposes and I might play 1 as my 21st land or even 2 if I also replace an island. Having it as 'the tutor' I think is an issue though, as mentioned before, because it requires so much land and is so slow. With spells like Shimmer, Ideas and Peer (or the cmc1 cantrips) you'd also love to be able to set up your combo turn on turn 2 so if you play a ton of taplands, that will be hard to do.
Having played a sideboarded game with Thing in the Ice and thinking about it some more, I feel like I'd rather play Aria of Flame instead. This deck is not particularly good at flipping thing as it doesn't play manamorphose and doesn't want to just spew twiddles. Yes, if they board out all removal it's great but how many decks can really do that? Also, would a smart opponent not consider Thing and leave something in? Just not playing any creatures at all and having an enchantment, something that generally needs a more specific, less frequently played card to remove could be safer and thus more likely to succeed. Added bonus is that Aria can slowly kill a Narset or other annoying planeswalkers.
I know this has been mentioned before but I haven't had a chance to play test but how about the Kiki-Jiki combo in the sideboard?
So last night I did some play testing with the Kiki-Jiki combo out of the sideboard but I wasn't really all that impressed. It went off a few times but to get enough untap abilities and mana to cast the combo was alot actually plus it fizzled alot.
I am going to play the twiddle deck tonight in a competitive format at my local store. Thursday nights all the best players comes out for a mini tournament. I thought crackling drake could be a interesting card since it should be pretty big and also draws me a card.
I just wanted to say that crackling drake won me two games last night. I ended up going 3-1 with the deck, I bet esper mill, R/B goblins and Abzan death shadow. My only lost was to amulent titan and the deck just didn't draw well out of the start but that match definitely beatable. I was very happy with crackingling drake because my opponent focused on graveyard hate and that doesn't affect crackling drake.
How did drakes do so well? Seems like being the only target for removal would make it even more of a lightning rod than it already is. That and when it's at it's best that means you are likely combing off already. Just make it less likely to fizzle and should have better results. I'm just confused on how you achieved results with that card. Thanks.
Edit: Looka like you were saying they took out all removal and played graveyard hate. Free wins basically?
How did drakes do so well? Seems like being the only target for removal would make it even more of a lightning rod than it already is. That and when it's at it's best that means you are likely combing off already. Just make it less likely to fizzle and should have better results. I'm just confused on how you achieved results with that card. Thanks.
Edit: Looka like you were saying they took out all removal and played graveyard hate. Free wins basically?
Well every deck that ran removal just took out the creature kill and prepared to deal with the graveyard, loaded up with leylines, and or played surgicals/unmoorded ego. They never thought of crackling drake and drake isn't affected by exile cards. I just put the card in for fun and it was the house. Depending on the deck I would cut one grape shot, merchant scroll, cust 1-2 creature cycle cards and 1 past in flames. I don't really mess with the deck too much.
The mill deck played unmoored ego and leyline sanctity and took creature kill out. Drake was huge and unexpected, abzan death shadow too, focused on graveyard hate and took out fatal push.
I am not saying crackling drake is a for sure card but he is worth looking at and he draws a card. I played for fun this weekend, I beat jund, and tron twice.
Someone played to 6th place, not sure how big the tournament was tho
I like the list that was played and I am going to try the new card once upon a time over sylvan scrying. I am going to start with 4 but may cut it down to 3 in the deck.
I can help find the second land, lotus field or vizier to untap a land. I think u/R gives you better wincons in Sideboard but U/G gives you more prtotection for hate cards I believe. Here is my list:
I just wanted to say this deck has been playing so good lately and I really like the U/G version over the U/R version. I have made some minor tweaks and I think I may tinker with adding fetch lands to shuffle the deck after a once up a time has been played and to thin the deck. I have won two FNMs with this deck and I really like it.
I'm just getting used to Twiddle and I have to ask about the usefulness of Tolaria West. In the few half dozen games I've played its always been a dead draw. More often than not I wished it was just an island.
Edit: I'm using my version of the UG list.
Once upon a time is not worth the slot. You are almost always finding a land. You should just play more lands that can cycle or sylvan scrying.
I do like the thought of playing green over red mostly for sideboard options.
I actually have struggled finding a 2nd land at times or a lotus field since I went down a tolaria west. Its probably a toss up with sylvan scrying but I have really liked the free play to find the second land or lotus field without have to spend a turn playing a card to find the right mana base.
glad we can agree on the color choice lol
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To do that I did cut some sorcery speed cantrips. I swapped them out with cantrips that also untap the land. To make it more likely you won't fizzle out. Like the origional version couldn't go off without Puppetry. My version can dig a little and play shadows to dig more and find the puppet master card. Slight changes. May be better, may be worse.
Also, being able to go off on T2 is nice and all, but that really requires you to find your 4-off Field in the top 10 cards or so because you only have time to cast 1 cantrip. I don't think the consistency is there to really bend over backwards for a more likely T2 kill.
Anyway, tonight I'm going to play a UG version as I really dislike the dependency of a 4-off without tutors, so I'm playing 2 Sylvan Scrying main. I also like green sideboard options so I'm going to test the following list:
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Breeding Pool
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Lonely Sandbar
4 Lotus Field
Spells 40
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Reach Through Mists
4 Dream's Grip
2 Twiddle
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Ideas Unbound
1 Echoing Truth
3 Past in Flames
2 Grapeshot
2 Sylvan Scrying
1 Shimmer of Possibility
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Return to Nature
2 Nature's Claim
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Thing in the Ice
3 Veil of Summer
2 Defense Grid
1 Rebuild
An initial list I saw that played green for Scying didn't play the cycle lands which I think is a mistake. You have to be able to turn it into a cantrip when you have plenty of mana mid-combo. Merchant scroll and Shimmer were initially 2 Vizier of Tumbling Sands but I found them clunky. Yes, they're a cantrip ritual but outside of the combo it does little to nothing, doesn't work with PIF, doesn't build storm and I would rather have a 5th copy of puppetry, the engine twiddle, and another option to dig for Field or other relevant cards.
In goldfishing I noticed that you need quite a few rituals (so actual 1 mana twiddles, not the spliced puppetry) to be able to use PiF or regular cantrips. Going peer + splice into peer + splice is basically just spinning your wheels and will make you fizzle if you don't somehow generate mana for PIF or other cantrips to find more stuff.
Looking forward to play this tonight :). It looks much more like my favorite combo deck Jeskai Ascendancy Combo than regular Gifts Storm, so no matter my record tonight, I'm sure at I'll be having a good time ;).
To answer your question. These are the cards that add storm count-
4 Shadow Of Doubt
4 Dream's Grip
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Reach Through Mists
1 Twiddle
4 Ideas Unbound
2 Grapeshot
1 Sylvan Scrying
Also at the end of the combo if you need 1 or 2 more storm counts you can cast any of the cycling cards.
The idea is to basically run through your deck. If you want you can start with the instants. Draw 1, look at the top 5, etc. Idea here is to build a hand with as many Shadow of Doubts as possible. Start cycling. Cast Shadow to get the cycled cards back and go back to arcane instants. Only Shadow and cycle when you begin to fizzle.
Remember once you have a critical mass of mana you don't have to keep on the instant plan. At this point you can allow the field trigger to resolve. You don't need mana anymore.
Alternatively, once you reach a critical mass of cards in hand you can just stop cycling and raise storm count by using strictly arcane spells.
All 12 of the cycling creatures are at worst a redraw. 4 of them produce mana. When you get to a state where you have 2-4 Viziers and rotation and 2 or 3 Shadows thats somewhere between 6 and 12 extra mana and cards drawn.
Lastly about my list, since you are drawing the vast majority of your deck, or the entire deck if you so choose, the need to actually have storm count >/= life total isn't nearly as needed. You can simply grapeshot then cast the second grapeshot. Storm of 8 or 9 would do the trick.
I hope that clears up any confusion.
As for your list. I like it. I would try to find a way to include 1 or more Depths though. Playing that and putting the card you want on top then cracking a fetch after you draw it is really strong. Good luck and I hope it goes well
Tolaria west via transmute fetches the lotus fields? Tho being green, sylvan scrying is nice
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Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2232323#paper
1 Grapeshot
4 Ideas Unbound
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Past in Flames
4 Serum Visions
1 Shimmer of Possibility
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Dream's Grip
1 Echoing Truth
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Reach Through Mists
1 Twiddle
1 Fiery Islet
4 Island
3 Lonely Sandbar
4 Lotus Field
1 Shivan Reef
4 Spirebluff Canal
1 Steam Vents
2 Tolaria West
2 Abrade
4 Deceiver Exarch
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Pact of Negation
2 Rebuild
pretty interesting I thought
Reality is but a perception of your being --
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Ah, I see. I suppose that works but the question then becomes: "how does that play out when you don't combo"? As a Jeskai Ascendancy Combo player, to me it seems that as in JAC, the issue isn't comboing off successfully (though, more on that later), but rather getting to your combo. What makes JAC good (not saying it is actually good, but a good aspect of it) is that its combo is also the way to get there, as in, the cantrips. Tons of people in the JAC thread want to add cards that add infinite combos to the deck which is useless because fizzling is very rarely the issue, actually starting to combo is. Those cycling creatures and shadow don't seem to do all that much if you're not comboing, which makes me not want to go that route.
After having played in an FNM, I'm afraid a 21st land is probably needed (lotus field itself doesn't count for turns 1 and 2) and a halimar depth or another lonely sandbar are the prime candidates. Another option I'm considering is the UG temple that scries 1.
True, but I expected that to be too slow and clunky as it doesn't naturally lead into T3 Lotus Field and, more importantly, requires you to have 3 lands in play before you can field, which, in my experience so far, is pretty ambitious in a deck with effectively 16-17 lands.
Anyway, last Friday I played an FNM and went a spectacular 1-3. Before you stop reading, let me say that I hadn't goldfished much (maybe 1 or 2 hands the night before as I got the last cards I needed in the mail) and it was (obviously) at the end of a tiring work week. Anyway, this is how it all went down:
Round 1, UW Control
So, this was a nice start of the FNM with a matchup that has counterspells and potentially annoying stuff like Narset. On the other hand, this is where I have Defense Grid and Veil of Summer for in the SB.
Game 1. I get fairly smoothly to lotus field and attempt to go off but fizzle after firing off 2 ideas unbound as I can't find a puppetry or other twiddles. I ditch 5 lands and a scrying or something ridiculous like that. Two turns later I finally find what I need but a Narset has come down since then, to compliment his JTMS, and I don't find echoing truth in time.
Game 2 (mull to 6). I lotus field and try to go off but end up with 3 puppetry in hand and nothing else. I die to narset + new ashiok making everything impossible. Veil was nice as it potentially let me protect against a ravenous trap or counter while drawing a card but sadly it drew more puppetries rather than something to do with it.
That game felt like the nut-unlucky, but as I have no recording of it I can't say for sure that I made the right decisions while comboing. Looking at what I've learned so far and in goldfishing much more with it, I think it's safe to say I valued card drawing too much over making mana and going for past in flames, which makes it much harder to combo off.
Anyway, on to round 2, Mono-R prison:
Game 1 I mull to 5 and he goes T3 Koth into T4 little Karn. Because he has koth and has 3 mountains in play, he can get lattice and play it next turn so I have to go for it here. After building storm 18 while resolving a peer through depth, I have the choice of getting grapeshot or another peer. This is funny because I can't make enough properly colored mana to be able to grapeshot for 20 so I have to take peer and continue. After generating well over 20 storm (this includes a PiF), I fizzle because I found/took so few twiddles that I can't continue. That was sad. Hilarious, but sad.
Game 2 he goes T1 Eidolon of the great revel, T2 blood moon and I'm not even close to playing magic.
Round 3, Budget GW Bogles
Game 1 (mull to 5), he has no idea what I'm doing as I dig for field, but that doesn't really matter as he can't interact anyway. Because he goes all-in on a kor spirit dance, I technically can interact with him but I don't find my echoing truth. However, I just combo and it doesn't matter.. right? Except I fizzle and die, again. I'm not exactly sure what went wrong this time, but a fizzle nonetheless.
Game 2 (mull to 6) I have a Thing in the Ice that slows him down a lot because he can't play anything into it. When I finally flip it because I can go off next turn if needed anyway, he condemns it on attack and then plays spirit dancer with a bunch of auras. Now I have to go off and I actually manage this time. Probably because I had lotus field already in play + 2 more lands when I did so I had plenty of mana.
Game 3 I mull to 5 but T3 combo the first time this FNM. yay!
Round 4, bant lords (mirror entity, lord of the unreal, phantasmal image, that kind of stuff).
Game 1 (mull to 6). My opponent usually plays bant spirits so I put him on this and keep trying to play around spell queller. He doesn't have that (or any spirits, really) but assembles a crappy board with Knight of Autumn + a copy of it, collector ouphe and bird/noble. I go off but fizzle (yay!) and have to grapeshot his board away. This gave me enough time to go off a few turns later anyway so I win after all.
Game 2 (mull to 5) I fail horribly. He has an eidolon of rhetoric and I form the plan to EoT bounce it into combo, but somehow trick myself into thinking I can spend my mana on merchant scroll, so cannot bounce it. Sadly, on his turn he plays mirror entity and lord of the unreal, though I don't quite realize how sad this is just yet. On my turn, thinking he messed up tapping out I try to bounce the eidolon and he activates entity for 0, pointing out that his eidolon is now a 1/1 hexproof and I scoop in shame.
Game 3 he assembles entity + lords and wrecks my Thing in the Ice plan by making all his creatures horrors when I flip thing.. doh. Did I mention that playing Friday Night after a tiring work week is not optimal? Shortly after he plays eidolon again and I'm locked out.
So. This FNM at least cured me from the idea of playing this in GP Ghent this week (much to the relief of my teammates), but it also taught me that this deck is much more complicated to play than Gift Storm or JAC. Goldfishing it since then I've been going off successfully T3 or 4 consistently, so there's clearly potential here and I'll be sure to play it more in upcoming FNMs or other events I don't care as much about in regard to results.
What bugged me so far was that you need 2 land (realistically) before playing Lotus Field, but you only have 16 non-lotus field lands (or 17). Most of my mulligans that night were due to too few (non-lotus field) lands. It was amusing to mull away 2 lotus fields the first time, not so much the 3+ other times..
Also, needing both the arcane package which depends on puppetry and the twiddles to actually make mana it seems like you need so much to actually go off that T3 is probably an optimistic scenario. Of course, as with any combo deck you should figure out when you have to go for it and when you can wait, but simply being able to twiddle your field T3 and having 1 draw spell is far from reliable enough. Fortunately, as long as you don't go nuts with Ideas Unbound, you can simply try again later, knowing your main combo piece is safe and can basically not be touched.
I do agree that a few more lands are needed. I think probably 22 will be a good number to start with. Only need 2 nonfield lands, so 18 with a few cantrips should be close to right. My build I'm trying to reduce the number by doing a visions'esk effect with depts and fetches.
I do also state that you dont need to go for it until you have to. Generally that means before narset can be played against aggro decks and by turn 3 against burn and heavy aggro. Also sometimes the super aggro decks just draw dont draw gas. Too many lands. Not enough. Too many 2 drops etc.
sorry about the results
on tolaria west:
ooo I see it differently, if I got it early, I would likely play it as one of my land drops. I don't think tolaria west's role is only to fetch. It is a bad land as well as a bad fetch... but it does both in one card. Early it is a bad land, mid game if you still haven got your lotus field it is a fetch, when you are comboing you can fetch a lonely sandbar to draw a card (4 mana 2 cards to draw a card yes its bad :p) ... it is not very good at each individual task, but it houses them all in one card.
Reality is but a perception of your being --
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"The brain is wider than the sky,
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The one the other will include
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
@arcane7828
Fair enough. It is indeed pretty strong to have a land serve 2 purposes and I might play 1 as my 21st land or even 2 if I also replace an island. Having it as 'the tutor' I think is an issue though, as mentioned before, because it requires so much land and is so slow. With spells like Shimmer, Ideas and Peer (or the cmc1 cantrips) you'd also love to be able to set up your combo turn on turn 2 so if you play a ton of taplands, that will be hard to do.
Having played a sideboarded game with Thing in the Ice and thinking about it some more, I feel like I'd rather play Aria of Flame instead. This deck is not particularly good at flipping thing as it doesn't play manamorphose and doesn't want to just spew twiddles. Yes, if they board out all removal it's great but how many decks can really do that? Also, would a smart opponent not consider Thing and leave something in? Just not playing any creatures at all and having an enchantment, something that generally needs a more specific, less frequently played card to remove could be safer and thus more likely to succeed. Added bonus is that Aria can slowly kill a Narset or other annoying planeswalkers.
I know this has been mentioned before but I haven't had a chance to play test but how about the Kiki-Jiki combo in the sideboard?
So last night I did some play testing with the Kiki-Jiki combo out of the sideboard but I wasn't really all that impressed. It went off a few times but to get enough untap abilities and mana to cast the combo was alot actually plus it fizzled alot.
I am going to play the twiddle deck tonight in a competitive format at my local store. Thursday nights all the best players comes out for a mini tournament. I thought crackling drake could be a interesting card since it should be pretty big and also draws me a card.
2 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
Instant (18)
4 Dream's Grip
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Reach Through Mists
2 Twiddle
Sorcery (20)
1 Eye of Nowhere
2 Grapeshot
4 Ideas Unbound
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Past in Flames
4 Serum Visions
1 Shimmer of Possibility
4 Sleight of Hand
5 Island
2 Lonely Sandbar
4 Lotus Field
4 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
3 Tolaria West
2 Abrade
1 Aria of Flame
2 Crackling Drake
2 Defense Grid
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Rebuild
Edit: Looka like you were saying they took out all removal and played graveyard hate. Free wins basically?
Well every deck that ran removal just took out the creature kill and prepared to deal with the graveyard, loaded up with leylines, and or played surgicals/unmoorded ego. They never thought of crackling drake and drake isn't affected by exile cards. I just put the card in for fun and it was the house. Depending on the deck I would cut one grape shot, merchant scroll, cust 1-2 creature cycle cards and 1 past in flames. I don't really mess with the deck too much.
The mill deck played unmoored ego and leyline sanctity and took creature kill out. Drake was huge and unexpected, abzan death shadow too, focused on graveyard hate and took out fatal push.
I am not saying crackling drake is a for sure card but he is worth looking at and he draws a card. I played for fun this weekend, I beat jund, and tron twice.
Someone played to 6th place, not sure how big the tournament was tho
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
I like the list that was played and I am going to try the new card once upon a time over sylvan scrying. I am going to start with 4 but may cut it down to 3 in the deck.
I can help find the second land, lotus field or vizier to untap a land. I think u/R gives you better wincons in Sideboard but U/G gives you more prtotection for hate cards I believe. Here is my list:
2 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
Instant (22)
4 Dream's Grip
1 Echoing Truth
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Reach Through Mists
1 Twiddle
Sorcery (17)
2 Grapeshot
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Past in Flames
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Island
1 Lonely Sandbar
4 Lotus Field
2 Tolaria West
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Aria of Flame
1 Echoing Truth
2 Mystical Dispute
2 Nature's Claim
2 Rebuild
2 Thing in the Ice
3 Veil of Summer
1 Weather the Storm
2 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
Instant (21)
4 Dream's Grip
1 Echoing Truth
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
4 Reach Through Mists
1 Twiddle
Sorcery (18)
2 Grapeshot
4 Ideas Unbound
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Past in Flames
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Island
1 Lonely Sandbar
4 Lotus Field
2 Tolaria West
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Aria of Flame
3 Mystical Dispute
2 Nature's Claim
2 Rebuild
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Veil of Summer
2 Weather the Storm
I do like the thought of playing green over red mostly for sideboard options.
Edit: I'm using my version of the UG list.
WUBEsper MillWUB
I actually have struggled finding a 2nd land at times or a lotus field since I went down a tolaria west. Its probably a toss up with sylvan scrying but I have really liked the free play to find the second land or lotus field without have to spend a turn playing a card to find the right mana base.
glad we can agree on the color choice lol