Are we allowed to talk about the Modern Horizons in this deck build? Collected “sorceries” seems like it might be good if you had to cut Elf and had more of the sorcery build. Still not big on the single drop mono colored cards in this I’ll try it out tho.
Are we allowed to talk about the Modern Horizons in this deck build? Collected “sorceries” seems like it might be good if you had to cut Elf and had more of the sorcery build. Still not big on the single drop mono colored cards in this I’ll try it out tho.
22 hits are barely impossible to play if we want to keep useful guild distribution. And I have never seen a succesful CC deck running so few hits.
Spirits run 28-30 hits, Devoted Druid 27-31. Once you add 24 lands, 4 five-drops and 4 CC, there are 28 cards left, so basicly no place for other non-hits.
It's 7 cards different to Cavedan's across the 75. I streamed it over at www.twitch.tv/daviusminimus, my video will stay there for 14 days.
My current list has a good number of hits off Niv, and i'm pretty happy with it overall. I've had "bad" hits of 2 and 3, but been lucky enough that the 2 have been great (bring to light + relevant spell, for example). I've had good hits of 6 pretty regularly too (often leading to a discard step)!
Here's the cards that I'm really not sold on yet.
Manamorphose, Assault // Battery, D-Sphere, Kaya, Baby Teferi, Sorin, Primal Command
They all have a role, and do something you're interested in, so by no means warrant cutting the lot. The issue is that they either have very little impact (manamorphose, assault//battery) or are not tutorable (walkers + d-sphere) or are just horrid when you draw them naturally (primal command).
Manamorphose is literally a do-nothing in 90% of games. The mana in here is so good, and you can usually beat blood moon. I've been in spots where I don't want to cast 'morphose in case op has dispel, which would then mean i can't cast Niv, and had spots where Eidolon of the Great Revel make 'morphose terrible. On the flip side, its a hit of Niv and replaces itself. It is nice to have this as an extra way to "beat" moon and an extra way to play around Field of Ruin. It's mainly here because the rest of GR is pretty unexciting.
Assault//Battery is similar. It's nice to be able to go "Niv plus a spell" occasionally, and it's also nice to have early interaction. But it's mostly meh. I don't remember making an elephant too often. Same issue as 'morphose in that there's few other choices.
In RG, I have the following to test: Xenagos, The Reveler - protects itself and the 2/2 has haste so can hit walkers etc. However, its ramp mode is mostly crap. Atarka's Command - this is "deal 3 ramp" 99% of the time. It's not great (growth spiral is better), but it is RG. Domri, Anarch of Bolas - this was in Cavedan's original list, but always looked bad. I am starting to understand why it was included. Huntmaster of the Fells - I ran this before, but it's easier to interact with than Sorin. Both carry the game, so perhaps there's space for both Wild Cantor - probably terrible, but it's almost guarenteed ramp since an op is unlikely to bolt it. Obviously it fixes too, which could be relevant under blood moon (comparable again to manamorphose). Wreak Havoc - has to be bad, right?!
I can't really think of too much else to say right now. The SB is ok, not stunning. I do like Knight of Autumn and perhaps want a 2nd. Fiery Justice is a card I'd like to try, since its great when naturally drawn and an ok bring to light target, but obviously misses off Niv. It could be better than Verdict in the main.
@daviusminus: It's rather interesting that (if I counted it well) we share only 21 cards main and 2 in sideboard - lands included - in our current versions. I don't know if there is anything we can discuss at this point.
For now, I'll be dedicating my testing time to standard as MCQ i approaching and Modern Horizons will likely lead me to certain changes. For now, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain; Force of Vigor; Force of Negation and Prismatic Vista all look reasonable, but I still hope for some real improvement. I also highly recommand swaping basics for their snow cousins just to bluff Ice-Fang Coatl once the set comes. But before seeing it all this post is mostly good-for-nothing.
Just wanted to chime in. I played this deck at an FNM and streamed it ( momsbasementgames on twitch ) and the deck is surprisingly good. The list I streamed ran Growth Spiral x 2, Little Teferi x 2, 1 Eternal Witness. I cut 1 Helix, 1 Bring to Light, Domri x 2, 1 Safewright. In SB I cut a Rest in Peace for a Dovin's Veto.
So let me explain my choices, first off lets go with the easy one. I tried Growth Spiral, and I didn't like it. So that is removed and I'm adding back the 4th Helix and unsure about the other card ( might move Knight of Autumn into main )
The Teferi Time Raveler ( aka Little Teferi), when I first played the deck on paper I already made a change and removed Domri for 1 of Teferi. Teferi is just better than Domri, you don't run that many creatures, his minus is almost never relevant and this deck has a tough time against control heavy decks. Play 2 Teferi, it's better.
The Eternal Witness, so this card is great, it sets up a mini lock with Primal Command. It allows you to reuse your silver bullets, and gives you a strong card for Kolagan's Command. What I found was sometimes I would Unmoored Ego and want to do it again and have no real way to make that happen, or maybe another Helix or whatever the case. Eternal Witness solves that, the other thing is Kolagan's Command return a creature mode was like 98% irrelevant, and now it isn't. The other cool thing about Witness is it allows you to set up a mini-lock with Primal Command, time walk them, do it again and shuffle library. So in short play this card, it's great.
The Dovin's Veto in the sb is because this deck has problems against control, and other decks that can land Haymakers and I felt 2 Rest in Peace just aren't needed. You have ways to tutor for these pieces and you have 3 strong graveyard hate options.
I'll probably be streaming this deck again soon and will be making some changes. The ones I'm thinking about is moving countersquall into the sb, and putting castigate or another thought erasure main, and then running a copy of Bloodbraid Elf. I might also cut squall or use the space I added to the sb ( if I move in knight) to add vexing shusher. It will help verse counterspell decks.
I think this deck is good, not tier 1, but good and the main reason I play it is more so because it's a lot of fun.
Could Oath of Kaya be a potential B/W card for this deck? This deck can fit quite a many Planeswalkers already. Also the new Wrenn and Six could be amazing for this deck since there's so few playable RG cards. T1 fetch, T2 Wrenn and get your fetch back and get another shockland.
Could Oath of Kaya be a potential B/W card for this deck? This deck can fit quite a many Planeswalkers already. Also the new Wrenn and Six could be amazing for this deck since there's so few playable RG cards. T1 fetch, T2 Wrenn and get your fetch back and get another shockland.
I think Oath of Kaya is too redundant with Lightning Helix. If I want a third BW card, I'd rather go with Castigate because this deck doesn't quite have enough hand disruption.
From my preliminary testing with Wrenn and Six, I think Wrenn requires you to warp your mana base to have 8+ fetches. This deck does need the colour fixing, reliable land drops, and removal, but it might not want the pain.
@Raiec - it wasnt particularly something I had considered in great detail, someone in discord was running it. When I looked at how that affected the mana, I was pretty much sold. The old manabase ran Blooming Marsh, since it casts BOP and Inquisition, but that card is incredibly bad at casting turn 2 Lightning Helix and such. Path isn't generally a turn 1 play, so you are not forced into having white on Turn 1. that lets you basically play whatever untapped green source you want on t1, so I got to play Grove of the Burnwillows. Grove is better on Turn 4+, and has some weird upside vs Deaths Shadow. It also casts 3 of your best 2 drops (izzet charm, helix, trophy).
I'm not 100% sold on Path still, but I'm sold on "don't play inquisition + blooming marsh". It may be fine to run no other 1 drops in all honesty. I'm not sure yet.
I've seen no content pretty much on this deck, apart from the original 5-0. It's down to us!
Im looking at different ways to find Niv without it a) costing 5 and b) having an effect early in the game. So far:
Congregation at Dawn
Eldritch Evo (has the neoform issues for the most part)
Jarad's Orders - only really has 1 half of it's text
Nahiri (sort of)
Summoner's Pact - does the job but the GG might be tricky, and it's hardly useful early
Time of Need - oooooooooooooooooo
Any thoughts anyone!?!
Now we're getting a modern reprint of Eladamri's Call, which is probably the best tutor we could've hoped for.
It's a good card though very different from those other two as it doesn't offer hand disruption.
I can see it replacing Rakdos Charm in the SB as it also offers GY-hate and other effects.
BtW, while looking for some playable Izzet and Dimir cards which are pretty hard to come by I found some potentially playable ones:
# Thought Erasure - was in the original deck though I prefer Tidehollow Sculler as a more proactive hand disruption.
# Unmoored Ego - a great SB card which shouldn't be in the maindeck imho.
# Discovery // Dispersal - a decent cantrip though a bit slow and has utility late in the game as well.
Downside is that it can't be hit with Bloodbraid Elf (or Bring to Light).
# Notion Rain - a pretty good card draw spell (a slightly better Read the Bones) though the life-loss hurts in a deck like this with the painful manabase.
# Thief of Sanity - a potentially playable creature which can provide card advantage though very vulnerable (but we have K-Command to bring it back).
# Hostage Taker - mostly a slower version of Deputy of Detention though the ability to cast the card later can sometimes end up useful.
# Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - a bit slow and situational (so probably a SB card) but can be quite good in the right matchup.
# Izzet Charm - was in the original list but I'm not really impressed with it.
# Electrolyze - a pretty expensive cantrip and the removal capabilities can be rather situaltional.
# Ral, Izzet Viceroy - probably the best PW of these colors though rather expensive at 5-mana (and mostly a weaker version of Teferi).
# Keranos, God of Storms - a good value-engine but again very slow at 5-mana.
# Whirler Virtuoso - probably not that great but a 2/3 + a 1/1 flyer for 3-mana isn't terrible. Enigma Drake is another option though maybe with only 22 instants and sorceries it won't grow very big fast enough.
@D90Denis...
Nice list of cards, I've actually tested most of these, so i'll give some feedback: Thought Erasure - it's 1 of the best things you can do on Turn 2 imo, since it helps you find land / threat, whichever you're missing. It's also pretty terrible in the late game, and barely a Niv hit. I run 1 and like it. tidehollow sculler - I ran this for a while, and it's pretty medium imo. It just eats removal, which is kinda fine, but just not great. Good vs combo. If we had more creatures, i'd be more interested in it! Thief of Santity - it's a card that carries when you untap with it, but 3-mana die-to-bolt has always been a stretch, and when you don't have too many bolt targets already, I just struggled to do anything too exciting. It'd be at its best vs linear decks, but you often felt nervous tapping out for Thief against decks like tron/storm. Overall, it felt powerful but not often enough. I wouldn't recommend it unless you go down the route of 30+ creatures, and even then, not too many of em! Hostage Taker - it was just a little slow and a little unexciting. It doesn't line up well vs reflector mage out of humans, and it's too slow vs affinity / hardened scales etc. It's almost dead vs tron/ad nauseum/storm etc. Its a fine card, and perhaps is worth considering to fight decks like Eldrazi if they get popular (Since our removal is generally quite poor vs big critters), but overall it was underwhelming. Izzet Charm - The flexibility and the fact that it's live vs most decks and at most stages of the game make me really like Izzet Charm. Counterspell or Shock on Turn 2 is pretty strong, and sandbagging a Bird or a Land makes it decent off the top. I wouldn't drop this, and would consider a 3rd. Whirler Virtuoso - Falls into a similar camp to Hostage Taker. I hoped it'd be similar to Pia & Kiran Nalaar, in that you get some air and value. But actually, when you're behind, it just buys you a turn and you die anyway, and when you're ahead, its not closing the game out quickly. When you go into topdeck mode, this isn't what you're looking for. Its just very very medium at best. Unmoored Ego - Honestly this card is pretty good. Against control, you can use it to try force through a key spell, by naming something like Cryptic Command and hoping for the best. When you do this, you'll either tag a key card, or just have full information. Both of those things are useful Game 1. Against Combo, it's obvious what to name, and often its correct to bring to light for this before a Niv.
What it really comes down to is - you'll want access to this in Game 1 often enough that you don't mind it being bad when you naturally draw it a % of the time. I don't want it vs Affinity, but I do want it vs Tron (naming a tron piece or Valakut is amazing). This card beats big mana and combo, and is passable vs control when naturally drawn, so i think it's worth the slot.
What I've not tested yet: Discovery//Dispersal - do like the look of this, but i'm tight on space. I may run it later on. Notion Rain - comparing this to Discovery, I think the life loss matters too much (as you said), and I was already worried about the tempo loss from a cantrip. It's a big fat no for me, won't test. Ral, Izzet Viceroy - not a bring to light target, and not as good as Bring to Light OR Niv. If you wanted more top-end, I think you'd run a 4th Niv or as you say, another Teferi. Keranos, God of Storms - was on my list to test in the SB, mainly vs Control. It takes over the game, and is a BTL target since it's classed as a creature in your deck. I think it has potential. ashiok, nightmare weaver - I havent tested it because i dont think we protect it well, and its not good at protecting itself, unlike Ajani, Nahiri and Teferi. electrolyze - this is a geniunely good magic card, but I'm not sure it compares well to something like K-command. We already have Izzet Charm and Lightning Helix for little critters, so I'm not sure it's even necessary. 1-of at the most, might be worth a look.
I think from what you've listed, I can see Keranos as a 1-of in the board, and Discovery//Dispersal has potential as perhaps a 1-of in the main.
I also think Kaya's Guile will be a 1-of in the main. I know it doesn't offer hand disruption, but you don't necessarily need that effect. There's a lot of flexibility in this list, and Kaya's adds to that, being relevant in a tonne of MUs.
Overall, the best thing to do is just to build a flexible maindeck with generically powerful cards. Anything there "because of the colour pie" should probably dissapear.
This is my current list: http://www.streamdecker.com/deck/-RTSRU6aY
I'm testing the Glittering Wish, Terminate and Sin Collector, but could see all 3 being cut.
The Glittering Wish in here has come in as a potential solution to a problem I've been having. At 22 lands, 4 BOP and 3 Quest (29 mana sources) I was mulliganing a lot of 2-landers and then getting stung and forced down to 5. When on 23 lands, I would flood out too much in the mid-late game having kept a reasonable 4-5 land (/mana source) opener.
Glittering Wish is clunky, and although our SB is already set up for the card, the deck doesn't like playing from behind. You want to be stable, then draw a 5-drop. Since G-wish is clunky, I've dropped a Bring to Light for it. However, that Bring to Light has gone to the SB.
The theory here is that I still have access to 7 Nivs (3 BTL, 3 Niv, and a Wish for BTL). What I'm actually saying here is "when I draw glittering wish, is the access to the sideboard going to be better than the times i can't afford to Wish+Bring to Light". There's clearly going to be times where I want Niv but only have 5 mana, and this will sting. There will also be times where I get to grab Fracturing Gust and win the game. They'll be other times where I can Wish on T2 and get Kambal on T3 etc.
Back to the mana problem. I now have the 23rd land again, 4 BOP but just 2 Quest. So I'm on 29 mana sources. So in theory, i'm still risking having the "mulliganing a 2-lander" issue. However, the 3rd quest has gone to the SB, making G-wish a sort-of "half mana". G-wish will give me my 3rd land drop when I'm lacking it, and will be a threat when I'm not.
That's the theory anyway. It's very early on, and i've seen wish just twice. First time it got Inquisition-ed, but that was better than them taking my Lightning Helix and leaving a Bring to Light to rot in my hand (I was stuck on mana). The 2nd time, I sandbagged it for a turn, to see whether I'd draw my 4th land or a threat, and then fired it off to complete my hand. It felt good both times.
I've not overcommitted to G-wish. I've lost a couple of SB slots (I had to add BTL and Safewright Quest). However, I've found space for MD Knight of Autumn + Abrupt Decay, so I have access to a very similar amount of tools as before. They're just in different places.
Would love to hear feedback on this approach. Sorry for wall of text!
Also, what do you think about Azorius Charm for the deck ?
It can be either a cheap cantrip, tempo'y removal or gain some life with the creatures.
A creature I want to test in the deck is Geist of Saint Traft which can be hard to deal with for many decks and we have enough removal to clear the way for it to attack.
@D90Dennis14 - Ok so there's a few things here...
First, I absolutely hate Assassin's Trophy on Turn 2. It's terrbile, but sometimes you have to deal with a bob etc. With decay in the deck, it gives you something that's better in the early turns against everyone except tron. It's worse late obviously. The uncounterable comes up very rarely, but helps vs Deaths Shadow and Chalice of the Void on 2 (which is normally a bit of a beating).
Terminate was added because I was struggling against anything big, like Thought Knot / Reality Smasher / Gurmag / Hollow One. It could be that Trophy is better, but I already have 4x GB cards and only 2x BR. It's been good so far.
I wouldn't say any of them are absolutely critical, you can change up the removal as you wish really, I just hate ramping opps!
Maelstrom Pulse vs Detention Sphere is close actually. Both are in colours that already have some good spells, so you could swap 1 for the other quite easily. Although Pulse is a Bring to Light target (which does come up occasionally, usually vs lingering souls), D-sphere pseudo exiles the card, so is much better against die-trigger stuff like Wurmcoil etc, or against Prized Amalgams that otherwise would bounce back. I have removal that can be Bring-to-Lighted up, so I think having the D-sphere for the "exile" clause is worthwhile, but again, it's a tiny difference overall.
Honestly, Deputy of Detention, Geist of Saint Traft, Tidehollow Sculler etc takes you down a slightly different route. I tried it, and just ended up loosing tixs left right and centre. The issue was that there's not a great colour pie for the creatures, but you need a mass of them to stretch out removal, to make tidehollow / spell queller and co worthwhile. If you don't have cards to back up the sculler, then it'll eat the next removal spell the opp has and you're back to the start. I didn't love my creature-based build, and i'm pretty happy with BBE and Niv as my main threats, with BOP as a somewhat high-risk high-reward card.
Azorious Charm again needs a few more creatures to support it imo. It'll always be ok but never stunning.
I prefer the builds that have a tonne of interaction and just use Niv to reload. They don't rely on ramp, and don't require you to ever really clock the opponent. Once you run the op low on cards and land Niv, it's kinda irrelevant how you finish them off. It may be BBE, burn spells, another Niv, the original Niv etc. The creature-light version is just trying to play removal until you can reload, and it's great.
I'm really considering Abrupt Decay vs Terminate vs 3rd Trophy for main/side, and also Sin Collector vs Castigate. Sin Collector has been pretty mediocre, and Castigate is more flexible and cheaper to cast.
It looks similar to the earliest builds except for the Bloodbraid Elfs in the RG slot, although I like to think that Kaya's Guile will be better than Kaya, Orzhov Usurper in this deck.
I went a little more creature-heavy to have more targets for K-Command (and I like playing creatures in general) and am also trying out Discovery // Dispersal as my cantrip over the 4th Growth Spiral just to have a UB card.
I've cut the 3rd maindeck Trophy for a Terminate and replaced Primal Command with Nahiri to get Niv or just rummage and remove stuff.
After playing with the deck for a weak online I have some early thoughts on the cards:
# I really like Tidehollow Sculler in the deck and is good against most decks as creature-heavy decks aren't very common right now.
# 7x 5-drops seems a bit much even with my 24-lands list so I consider trimming down Niv to 2x copies (which I often to when sideboarding) or maybe even Bring to Light down to 3x copies.
# Bloodbraid Elf is amazing in the deck, this as much a Bloodbraid deck as it is a Niv/Bring to Light deck.
# I didn't see Discovery // Dispersal very much and when I did it wasn't very good so I'm back to Thought Erasure which I'm often happy to see.
# I'm still not sure about the maindeck Knight of Autumn but sometimes the extra lifegain is crucial to stabilize against aggressive decks.
Some alterantives could be moving SB cards like: Deputy of Detention and Kambal to the maindeck instead.
# I've added Geist to the SB and quite like it so far as ahard to deal with threat against control and a fast clock against combo decks.
I've mostly played against controls decks (mainly UW) and Tron.
Control seemed manageable with early disruption like Tidehollow into Bloodbraid which puts them on clock as well.
Tron is trickier but gets much better post-board with plenty of answers to their PW and more land-hate.
I would cut Bring to Light down to 3. I have and it's just fine. It frees up some room in the deck.
I need to restream (Due to sound) it but I streamed a version of this on Momsbasementgamestreams on Twitch.
I found the toughest match ups to be control, mainly UW. My local meta is heavy with UW and it's because of the counters, and mana denial they have. What I ended up doing is cutting Inquistion, going with another Thought Erasure, and Castigate in their slots. Turn 1 I found you rather have a land come in play tapped or untapped for birds, and I rather have my discard have maximum value with the option of any card.
I need to test the new walkers Ajani and Nahiri. I will probably do that tonight at the local LGS. Maybe start with Ajani.
I highly recommend Eternal Witness main, as a 1 of. It allows you to reuse any of your 1 ofs,it's an amazing target for K.Command. I haven't seen list run it yet outside of mine but I can't speak enough to it.
Also let me know how the Niv down to 2 goes. I was considering the same thing but haven't made the change yet. Been making slow controlled changes for now to see if I can fix some match ups.
@drew02k - shame i missed your stream, I follow Momsbasement! I can't find a VOD of it, do you have it on youtube or recorded anywhere?
@D90Dennis - I found something similar with regards to 7x 5-drops, so I cut a bring to light. I originally cut a Niv, but there's several problems with this:
1. Bring to Light is hit by cards like Kitesail Freebooter, Thalia, Stubborn Denial, Dovins Veto etc, that Niv isn't.
2. Niv No.1 can easily be pathed, as can No.2...
Overall, it's not a massive difference, but you don't often BTL for "not Niv", so just having a 3/3 split has worked well for me.
For what it's worth, I run a singleton Glittering Wish and the 4th BTL in the board. This way, I still have a virtual 7x closers, but I also have a card that's useful early. I tend to board out G-wish in most match-ups (nearly all of them, but occasionally I'll put a Niv to the side to play around surgical a touch), but it can acts as a land drop (safewright quest) a threat (BTL) or just a copy of a good card for the MU. I've liked the change. I pushed it up to 2x G-wish and it wasn't nice though, so I'm happy with 1.
I personally liked Tidehollow but only in creature-heavier builds. There's lists running around with 4 BBE and maybe only 4-5 total 5-drops, and those lend themselves to other creatures a bit better.
For the record, this is the list I registered yesterday for a run-out. https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/-RTSRU6aY
The first Mox Tantalite seems promosing so far. I've been comparing it to the 2nd copy of City of Brass/Mana Confluence, and it sorta lines up nicely. You don't usually want to play City of Brass in the early turns because the damage adds up quickly, but it's fine on turns 4+. However, once you get to turns 9-10+, then you don't want a mana source at all, and you'd likely sandbag them to loot away with izzet charm etc. So, the fact that you don't want city of brass OR mox on turns 9+, you can just compare them for the early turns. In the early turns, you don't want City of Brass on T1, but you may want it on turn 4-6ish to cast BTL/Niv. If you had your Mox in your opener, it will be better than City of Brass the majority of the time, because it's a pain-free way to fix, and it also ramps from 4-5. City of Brass however, will be better when naturally drawn on Turns 2-6ish. When you consider you draw 7 in your opener, and maybe have a 5-6 turn window for City to be better, there's not too much in it. There's some other slightly awkward points though, mainly Baby Teferi at the other side of the table.
So far, I've had it in my opener a decent amount and it's done work. Ramping to a turn 4 Niv is great, and multiple City of Brass effects are completely unmanageable. I like the change so far.
I also ran a split of Thought Erasure + Castigate to begin with, but the Kaya's Guile fill the BW slot now, and thought erasure is just the better card 90% of the time.
Everything else is pretty self explanitory, but just ask away!
I just recently started playing the deck and one idea I had was playing a 1 of shadow of doubt in sideboard the deck seems fine against control and and creature decks, but combo has been an issue. The three decks that have been giving me issues are scapeshift, amulet titan, and storm. The real issue for me is that against all of those decks the midrange plan just hasn't been working. In every game I'm able to answer their threats and go one for one, but once they have either landed a titan, start pacting, scapeshift, or gifts I've been buried alive. With the one of Ashiok in sideboard it's been a bit hard to consistently get it going. The way I see it playing out is that I would be able to BTLNiv to play and maybe hit ashiok . The ashiok is nice and all, but a bit more redundancy at instant speed can be nice, and them having the knowledge of SOD being in hand causes them to play much tighter, which makes the combo run that much harder. The combo of glittering wish and Shadow of doubt also can stop some decks in their tracks, and make them too afraid of the known counter in hand.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/magic-math-orator-of-ojutai-collected-company-and-dragons-of-tarkir/
22 hits are barely impossible to play if we want to keep useful guild distribution. And I have never seen a succesful CC deck running so few hits.
Spirits run 28-30 hits, Devoted Druid 27-31. Once you add 24 lands, 4 five-drops and 4 CC, there are 28 cards left, so basicly no place for other non-hits.
https://deckstats.net/decks/86739/1300215-cavedans-5-0-niv-mizzet-reborn
It's 7 cards different to Cavedan's across the 75. I streamed it over at www.twitch.tv/daviusminimus, my video will stay there for 14 days.
My current list has a good number of hits off Niv, and i'm pretty happy with it overall. I've had "bad" hits of 2 and 3, but been lucky enough that the 2 have been great (bring to light + relevant spell, for example). I've had good hits of 6 pretty regularly too (often leading to a discard step)!
Here's the cards that I'm really not sold on yet.
Manamorphose, Assault // Battery, D-Sphere, Kaya, Baby Teferi, Sorin, Primal Command
They all have a role, and do something you're interested in, so by no means warrant cutting the lot. The issue is that they either have very little impact (manamorphose, assault//battery) or are not tutorable (walkers + d-sphere) or are just horrid when you draw them naturally (primal command).
Manamorphose is literally a do-nothing in 90% of games. The mana in here is so good, and you can usually beat blood moon. I've been in spots where I don't want to cast 'morphose in case op has dispel, which would then mean i can't cast Niv, and had spots where Eidolon of the Great Revel make 'morphose terrible. On the flip side, its a hit of Niv and replaces itself. It is nice to have this as an extra way to "beat" moon and an extra way to play around Field of Ruin. It's mainly here because the rest of GR is pretty unexciting.
Assault//Battery is similar. It's nice to be able to go "Niv plus a spell" occasionally, and it's also nice to have early interaction. But it's mostly meh. I don't remember making an elephant too often. Same issue as 'morphose in that there's few other choices.
In RG, I have the following to test:
Xenagos, The Reveler - protects itself and the 2/2 has haste so can hit walkers etc. However, its ramp mode is mostly crap.
Atarka's Command - this is "deal 3 ramp" 99% of the time. It's not great (growth spiral is better), but it is RG.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas - this was in Cavedan's original list, but always looked bad. I am starting to understand why it was included.
Huntmaster of the Fells - I ran this before, but it's easier to interact with than Sorin. Both carry the game, so perhaps there's space for both
Wild Cantor - probably terrible, but it's almost guarenteed ramp since an op is unlikely to bolt it. Obviously it fixes too, which could be relevant under blood moon (comparable again to manamorphose).
Wreak Havoc - has to be bad, right?!
I can't really think of too much else to say right now. The SB is ok, not stunning. I do like Knight of Autumn and perhaps want a 2nd. Fiery Justice is a card I'd like to try, since its great when naturally drawn and an ok bring to light target, but obviously misses off Niv. It could be better than Verdict in the main.
For now, I'll be dedicating my testing time to standard as MCQ i approaching and Modern Horizons will likely lead me to certain changes. For now, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain; Force of Vigor; Force of Negation and Prismatic Vista all look reasonable, but I still hope for some real improvement. I also highly recommand swaping basics for their snow cousins just to bluff Ice-Fang Coatl once the set comes. But before seeing it all this post is mostly good-for-nothing.
So let me explain my choices, first off lets go with the easy one. I tried Growth Spiral, and I didn't like it. So that is removed and I'm adding back the 4th Helix and unsure about the other card ( might move Knight of Autumn into main )
The Teferi Time Raveler ( aka Little Teferi), when I first played the deck on paper I already made a change and removed Domri for 1 of Teferi. Teferi is just better than Domri, you don't run that many creatures, his minus is almost never relevant and this deck has a tough time against control heavy decks. Play 2 Teferi, it's better.
The Eternal Witness, so this card is great, it sets up a mini lock with Primal Command. It allows you to reuse your silver bullets, and gives you a strong card for Kolagan's Command. What I found was sometimes I would Unmoored Ego and want to do it again and have no real way to make that happen, or maybe another Helix or whatever the case. Eternal Witness solves that, the other thing is Kolagan's Command return a creature mode was like 98% irrelevant, and now it isn't. The other cool thing about Witness is it allows you to set up a mini-lock with Primal Command, time walk them, do it again and shuffle library. So in short play this card, it's great.
The Dovin's Veto in the sb is because this deck has problems against control, and other decks that can land Haymakers and I felt 2 Rest in Peace just aren't needed. You have ways to tutor for these pieces and you have 3 strong graveyard hate options.
I'll probably be streaming this deck again soon and will be making some changes. The ones I'm thinking about is moving countersquall into the sb, and putting castigate or another thought erasure main, and then running a copy of Bloodbraid Elf. I might also cut squall or use the space I added to the sb ( if I move in knight) to add vexing shusher. It will help verse counterspell decks.
I think this deck is good, not tier 1, but good and the main reason I play it is more so because it's a lot of fun.
I think Oath of Kaya is too redundant with Lightning Helix. If I want a third BW card, I'd rather go with Castigate because this deck doesn't quite have enough hand disruption.
From my preliminary testing with Wrenn and Six, I think Wrenn requires you to warp your mana base to have 8+ fetches. This deck does need the colour fixing, reliable land drops, and removal, but it might not want the pain.
Just thought i'd pop on quickly and say that I'm streaming the deck as often as I can over at https://www.twitch.tv/daviusminimus. Click follow so you get some notifications and you can come and watch!
My current list is:
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/-RTSRU6aY
My results are decent, 4-1s and 3-2s are the norm on modo.
I have the stock list from the initial 5-0 but I have added Ajani Vengeant Seems versatile taps lands, helixes, -7 wins against control decks -
Davius, what was your thought process in removing Inquisition and putting in Path?
I'm not 100% sold on Path still, but I'm sold on "don't play inquisition + blooming marsh". It may be fine to run no other 1 drops in all honesty. I'm not sure yet.
I've seen no content pretty much on this deck, apart from the original 5-0. It's down to us!
Now we're getting a modern reprint of Eladamri's Call, which is probably the best tutor we could've hoped for.
I can see it replacing Rakdos Charm in the SB as it also offers GY-hate and other effects.
Personally I prefer Tidehollow Sculler to Castigate/Sin Collector anyway.
BtW, while looking for some playable Izzet and Dimir cards which are pretty hard to come by I found some potentially playable ones:
# Thought Erasure - was in the original deck though I prefer Tidehollow Sculler as a more proactive hand disruption.
# Unmoored Ego - a great SB card which shouldn't be in the maindeck imho.
# Discovery // Dispersal - a decent cantrip though a bit slow and has utility late in the game as well.
Downside is that it can't be hit with Bloodbraid Elf (or Bring to Light).
# Notion Rain - a pretty good card draw spell (a slightly better Read the Bones) though the life-loss hurts in a deck like this with the painful manabase.
# Thief of Sanity - a potentially playable creature which can provide card advantage though very vulnerable (but we have K-Command to bring it back).
# Hostage Taker - mostly a slower version of Deputy of Detention though the ability to cast the card later can sometimes end up useful.
# Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - a bit slow and situational (so probably a SB card) but can be quite good in the right matchup.
# Izzet Charm - was in the original list but I'm not really impressed with it.
# Electrolyze - a pretty expensive cantrip and the removal capabilities can be rather situaltional.
# Ral, Izzet Viceroy - probably the best PW of these colors though rather expensive at 5-mana (and mostly a weaker version of Teferi).
# Keranos, God of Storms - a good value-engine but again very slow at 5-mana.
# Whirler Virtuoso - probably not that great but a 2/3 + a 1/1 flyer for 3-mana isn't terrible.
Enigma Drake is another option though maybe with only 22 instants and sorceries it won't grow very big fast enough.
Nice list of cards, I've actually tested most of these, so i'll give some feedback:
Thought Erasure - it's 1 of the best things you can do on Turn 2 imo, since it helps you find land / threat, whichever you're missing. It's also pretty terrible in the late game, and barely a Niv hit. I run 1 and like it.
tidehollow sculler - I ran this for a while, and it's pretty medium imo. It just eats removal, which is kinda fine, but just not great. Good vs combo. If we had more creatures, i'd be more interested in it!
Thief of Santity - it's a card that carries when you untap with it, but 3-mana die-to-bolt has always been a stretch, and when you don't have too many bolt targets already, I just struggled to do anything too exciting. It'd be at its best vs linear decks, but you often felt nervous tapping out for Thief against decks like tron/storm. Overall, it felt powerful but not often enough. I wouldn't recommend it unless you go down the route of 30+ creatures, and even then, not too many of em!
Hostage Taker - it was just a little slow and a little unexciting. It doesn't line up well vs reflector mage out of humans, and it's too slow vs affinity / hardened scales etc. It's almost dead vs tron/ad nauseum/storm etc. Its a fine card, and perhaps is worth considering to fight decks like Eldrazi if they get popular (Since our removal is generally quite poor vs big critters), but overall it was underwhelming.
Izzet Charm - The flexibility and the fact that it's live vs most decks and at most stages of the game make me really like Izzet Charm. Counterspell or Shock on Turn 2 is pretty strong, and sandbagging a Bird or a Land makes it decent off the top. I wouldn't drop this, and would consider a 3rd.
Whirler Virtuoso - Falls into a similar camp to Hostage Taker. I hoped it'd be similar to Pia & Kiran Nalaar, in that you get some air and value. But actually, when you're behind, it just buys you a turn and you die anyway, and when you're ahead, its not closing the game out quickly. When you go into topdeck mode, this isn't what you're looking for. Its just very very medium at best.
Unmoored Ego - Honestly this card is pretty good. Against control, you can use it to try force through a key spell, by naming something like Cryptic Command and hoping for the best. When you do this, you'll either tag a key card, or just have full information. Both of those things are useful Game 1. Against Combo, it's obvious what to name, and often its correct to bring to light for this before a Niv.
What it really comes down to is - you'll want access to this in Game 1 often enough that you don't mind it being bad when you naturally draw it a % of the time. I don't want it vs Affinity, but I do want it vs Tron (naming a tron piece or Valakut is amazing). This card beats big mana and combo, and is passable vs control when naturally drawn, so i think it's worth the slot.
What I've not tested yet:
Discovery//Dispersal - do like the look of this, but i'm tight on space. I may run it later on.
Notion Rain - comparing this to Discovery, I think the life loss matters too much (as you said), and I was already worried about the tempo loss from a cantrip. It's a big fat no for me, won't test.
Ral, Izzet Viceroy - not a bring to light target, and not as good as Bring to Light OR Niv. If you wanted more top-end, I think you'd run a 4th Niv or as you say, another Teferi.
Keranos, God of Storms - was on my list to test in the SB, mainly vs Control. It takes over the game, and is a BTL target since it's classed as a creature in your deck. I think it has potential.
ashiok, nightmare weaver - I havent tested it because i dont think we protect it well, and its not good at protecting itself, unlike Ajani, Nahiri and Teferi.
electrolyze - this is a geniunely good magic card, but I'm not sure it compares well to something like K-command. We already have Izzet Charm and Lightning Helix for little critters, so I'm not sure it's even necessary. 1-of at the most, might be worth a look.
I think from what you've listed, I can see Keranos as a 1-of in the board, and Discovery//Dispersal has potential as perhaps a 1-of in the main.
I also think Kaya's Guile will be a 1-of in the main. I know it doesn't offer hand disruption, but you don't necessarily need that effect. There's a lot of flexibility in this list, and Kaya's adds to that, being relevant in a tonne of MUs.
Overall, the best thing to do is just to build a flexible maindeck with generically powerful cards. Anything there "because of the colour pie" should probably dissapear.
This is my current list:
http://www.streamdecker.com/deck/-RTSRU6aY
I'm testing the Glittering Wish, Terminate and Sin Collector, but could see all 3 being cut.
http://www.streamdecker.com/deck/-RTSRU6aY
The Glittering Wish in here has come in as a potential solution to a problem I've been having. At 22 lands, 4 BOP and 3 Quest (29 mana sources) I was mulliganing a lot of 2-landers and then getting stung and forced down to 5. When on 23 lands, I would flood out too much in the mid-late game having kept a reasonable 4-5 land (/mana source) opener.
Glittering Wish is clunky, and although our SB is already set up for the card, the deck doesn't like playing from behind. You want to be stable, then draw a 5-drop. Since G-wish is clunky, I've dropped a Bring to Light for it. However, that Bring to Light has gone to the SB.
The theory here is that I still have access to 7 Nivs (3 BTL, 3 Niv, and a Wish for BTL). What I'm actually saying here is "when I draw glittering wish, is the access to the sideboard going to be better than the times i can't afford to Wish+Bring to Light". There's clearly going to be times where I want Niv but only have 5 mana, and this will sting. There will also be times where I get to grab Fracturing Gust and win the game. They'll be other times where I can Wish on T2 and get Kambal on T3 etc.
Back to the mana problem. I now have the 23rd land again, 4 BOP but just 2 Quest. So I'm on 29 mana sources. So in theory, i'm still risking having the "mulliganing a 2-lander" issue. However, the 3rd quest has gone to the SB, making G-wish a sort-of "half mana". G-wish will give me my 3rd land drop when I'm lacking it, and will be a threat when I'm not.
That's the theory anyway. It's very early on, and i've seen wish just twice. First time it got Inquisition-ed, but that was better than them taking my Lightning Helix and leaving a Bring to Light to rot in my hand (I was stuck on mana). The 2nd time, I sandbagged it for a turn, to see whether I'd draw my 4th land or a threat, and then fired it off to complete my hand. It felt good both times.
I've not overcommitted to G-wish. I've lost a couple of SB slots (I had to add BTL and Safewright Quest). However, I've found space for MD Knight of Autumn + Abrupt Decay, so I have access to a very similar amount of tools as before. They're just in different places.
Would love to hear feedback on this approach. Sorry for wall of text!
I've always thought that Maelstrom Pulse fits this slot better as it can be found with Bring to Light and can't be removed later.
Another alternative is Deputy of Detention which works well with K-Command and is more difficult to remove with Tidehollow Sculler taking away removal from it.
Also, how necessary is Abrupt Decay with 3x Assassin's Trophy (and a Terminate) already in the maindeck ?
Is the uncounterability a concern ?
Also, what do you think about Azorius Charm for the deck ?
It can be either a cheap cantrip, tempo'y removal or gain some life with the creatures.
A creature I want to test in the deck is Geist of Saint Traft which can be hard to deal with for many decks and we have enough removal to clear the way for it to attack.
First, I absolutely hate Assassin's Trophy on Turn 2. It's terrbile, but sometimes you have to deal with a bob etc. With decay in the deck, it gives you something that's better in the early turns against everyone except tron. It's worse late obviously. The uncounterable comes up very rarely, but helps vs Deaths Shadow and Chalice of the Void on 2 (which is normally a bit of a beating).
Terminate was added because I was struggling against anything big, like Thought Knot / Reality Smasher / Gurmag / Hollow One. It could be that Trophy is better, but I already have 4x GB cards and only 2x BR. It's been good so far.
I wouldn't say any of them are absolutely critical, you can change up the removal as you wish really, I just hate ramping opps!
Maelstrom Pulse vs Detention Sphere is close actually. Both are in colours that already have some good spells, so you could swap 1 for the other quite easily. Although Pulse is a Bring to Light target (which does come up occasionally, usually vs lingering souls), D-sphere pseudo exiles the card, so is much better against die-trigger stuff like Wurmcoil etc, or against Prized Amalgams that otherwise would bounce back. I have removal that can be Bring-to-Lighted up, so I think having the D-sphere for the "exile" clause is worthwhile, but again, it's a tiny difference overall.
Honestly, Deputy of Detention, Geist of Saint Traft, Tidehollow Sculler etc takes you down a slightly different route. I tried it, and just ended up loosing tixs left right and centre. The issue was that there's not a great colour pie for the creatures, but you need a mass of them to stretch out removal, to make tidehollow / spell queller and co worthwhile. If you don't have cards to back up the sculler, then it'll eat the next removal spell the opp has and you're back to the start. I didn't love my creature-based build, and i'm pretty happy with BBE and Niv as my main threats, with BOP as a somewhat high-risk high-reward card.
Azorious Charm again needs a few more creatures to support it imo. It'll always be ok but never stunning.
I prefer the builds that have a tonne of interaction and just use Niv to reload. They don't rely on ramp, and don't require you to ever really clock the opponent. Once you run the op low on cards and land Niv, it's kinda irrelevant how you finish them off. It may be BBE, burn spells, another Niv, the original Niv etc. The creature-light version is just trying to play removal until you can reload, and it's great.
For the record, I just 5-0d. My list after the 5-0 will be this:
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/-RTSRU6aY
I'm really considering Abrupt Decay vs Terminate vs 3rd Trophy for main/side, and also Sin Collector vs Castigate. Sin Collector has been pretty mediocre, and Castigate is more flexible and cheaper to cast.
Come join the discussion
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Mana Confluence
3 Windswept Heath
4 Pillar of the Paruns
Creatures
1 Sin Collector
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Niv-Mizzet Reborn
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Izzet Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Assassin's Trophy
4 Lightning Helix
1 Primal Command
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Thought Erasure
1 Unmoored Ego
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Safewright Quest
4 Bring to Light
1 Detention Sphere
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Cindervines
1 Countersquall
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Deafening Clarion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Rest in Peace
It looks similar to the earliest builds except for the Bloodbraid Elfs in the RG slot, although I like to think that Kaya's Guile will be better than Kaya, Orzhov Usurper in this deck.
After playing with the deck for a weak online I have some early thoughts on the cards:
# I really like Tidehollow Sculler in the deck and is good against most decks as creature-heavy decks aren't very common right now.
# 7x 5-drops seems a bit much even with my 24-lands list so I consider trimming down Niv to 2x copies (which I often to when sideboarding) or maybe even Bring to Light down to 3x copies.
# Bloodbraid Elf is amazing in the deck, this as much a Bloodbraid deck as it is a Niv/Bring to Light deck.
# I didn't see Discovery // Dispersal very much and when I did it wasn't very good so I'm back to Thought Erasure which I'm often happy to see.
# I'm still not sure about the maindeck Knight of Autumn but sometimes the extra lifegain is crucial to stabilize against aggressive decks.
Some alterantives could be moving SB cards like: Deputy of Detention and Kambal to the maindeck instead.
# I've added Geist to the SB and quite like it so far as ahard to deal with threat against control and a fast clock against combo decks.
I've mostly played against controls decks (mainly UW) and Tron.
Control seemed manageable with early disruption like Tidehollow into Bloodbraid which puts them on clock as well.
Tron is trickier but gets much better post-board with plenty of answers to their PW and more land-hate.
The most difficult match-ups seem to be creature-heavy/tribal-aggro type decks and mana-denial decks with: Blood Moon, Stone Rain/Fulminator Mage or playsets of Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin can be annoying as well.
I need to restream (Due to sound) it but I streamed a version of this on Momsbasementgamestreams on Twitch.
I found the toughest match ups to be control, mainly UW. My local meta is heavy with UW and it's because of the counters, and mana denial they have. What I ended up doing is cutting Inquistion, going with another Thought Erasure, and Castigate in their slots. Turn 1 I found you rather have a land come in play tapped or untapped for birds, and I rather have my discard have maximum value with the option of any card.
I need to test the new walkers Ajani and Nahiri. I will probably do that tonight at the local LGS. Maybe start with Ajani.
I highly recommend Eternal Witness main, as a 1 of. It allows you to reuse any of your 1 ofs,it's an amazing target for K.Command. I haven't seen list run it yet outside of mine but I can't speak enough to it.
Also let me know how the Niv down to 2 goes. I was considering the same thing but haven't made the change yet. Been making slow controlled changes for now to see if I can fix some match ups.
@D90Dennis - I found something similar with regards to 7x 5-drops, so I cut a bring to light. I originally cut a Niv, but there's several problems with this:
1. Bring to Light is hit by cards like Kitesail Freebooter, Thalia, Stubborn Denial, Dovins Veto etc, that Niv isn't.
2. Niv No.1 can easily be pathed, as can No.2...
Overall, it's not a massive difference, but you don't often BTL for "not Niv", so just having a 3/3 split has worked well for me.
For what it's worth, I run a singleton Glittering Wish and the 4th BTL in the board. This way, I still have a virtual 7x closers, but I also have a card that's useful early. I tend to board out G-wish in most match-ups (nearly all of them, but occasionally I'll put a Niv to the side to play around surgical a touch), but it can acts as a land drop (safewright quest) a threat (BTL) or just a copy of a good card for the MU. I've liked the change. I pushed it up to 2x G-wish and it wasn't nice though, so I'm happy with 1.
I personally liked Tidehollow but only in creature-heavier builds. There's lists running around with 4 BBE and maybe only 4-5 total 5-drops, and those lend themselves to other creatures a bit better.
For the record, this is the list I registered yesterday for a run-out.
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/-RTSRU6aY
The first Mox Tantalite seems promosing so far. I've been comparing it to the 2nd copy of City of Brass/Mana Confluence, and it sorta lines up nicely. You don't usually want to play City of Brass in the early turns because the damage adds up quickly, but it's fine on turns 4+. However, once you get to turns 9-10+, then you don't want a mana source at all, and you'd likely sandbag them to loot away with izzet charm etc. So, the fact that you don't want city of brass OR mox on turns 9+, you can just compare them for the early turns. In the early turns, you don't want City of Brass on T1, but you may want it on turn 4-6ish to cast BTL/Niv. If you had your Mox in your opener, it will be better than City of Brass the majority of the time, because it's a pain-free way to fix, and it also ramps from 4-5. City of Brass however, will be better when naturally drawn on Turns 2-6ish. When you consider you draw 7 in your opener, and maybe have a 5-6 turn window for City to be better, there's not too much in it. There's some other slightly awkward points though, mainly Baby Teferi at the other side of the table.
So far, I've had it in my opener a decent amount and it's done work. Ramping to a turn 4 Niv is great, and multiple City of Brass effects are completely unmanageable. I like the change so far.
I also ran a split of Thought Erasure + Castigate to begin with, but the Kaya's Guile fill the BW slot now, and thought erasure is just the better card 90% of the time.
Everything else is pretty self explanitory, but just ask away!
Here is a new 5-0 list with some unique card choices:
3x maindeck Ashiok seems a bit much and playing all the random creatures (and no Geist) over Bloodbraid doesn't seem worth it (though I do like Huntmaster here).
I still don't see the appeal of Detention Sphere in this deck over Maelstrom Pulse and Deputy of Detention.