Most noteably I cut a land and added a Opt (to compensate) since I had a serious flooding problem so far. Not exactly sure if Polluted Delta is the correct cut or if I should go for the Field instead. Needs more testing (liked the Field so far).
Otherwise relatively "stock" list to say it this way. I kinda want to squeeze either the Crypt Incursion or the Surgical MD, since there are a lot of match-ups where I would want it. Than again Consume the Meek has been pretty bonkers so far too, so I really need to figure things out on what silverbullet I exactly want in the MD. Btw. I would play the Consume above the third Push MD, since they fulfil a similar role.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: And the deck is so much fun
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
-) I never got mana screwed even though I cut a Fetch. However, what I noticed was, that the mana became a little bit more iffy (not having access to B e.g). Reason for this was mainly the Flooded Grove, so I might switch the Flooded Grove over to a Polluted, if I get the feeling that Flooded is more of an liability than anything else.
-) 4+1 1CMC Cantrips was bonkers, kinda wanted another one since I was able to find the stuff I wanted quite reliable (Teachings/Snaps/Cryptics)
-) Echoing Decay > Devour Flesh MD if your meta is not invested with Shadow. It is better in so many darn match-ups (but Shadow and BGx), so I will stick with it MD.
-) 3 Wilderness felt clunky, but I wanted to draw two more often than not, so I will stick with 3 to get them more reliable (and no, switching one for a Sorc speed tutor (Cluthc of the Undercity) is even worse, cause it is Sorc speed. I would rather play a Mastermind's Acquisition above it and even that one sucks balls.
-) The more I play with the deck the more unnecessary it feels to play Nexus. Sure, there were a lot of times where looping turns was cool, but more often than not it is simply not needed (also a reason why I board it out every time). I might put in the SB for the match-ups where I really want it and instead add another form of interaction (need to ponder about which one), but more testing needed on that end.
-) Got 6 pre and post board games in vs UR Phoenix with 2 MD Ascension. MD Echoing Decay helped a lot, but I still went 2-4 pre board. Problem is: No permanent out vs Phoenix. Wins involved looping of Nexus with Wilderness to pull far enough ahead to be able to BSZ yourself for a bunch to get a Cryptic Chain going. Post board it was 4-2, should have been 5-1 but messed a game up. Surgical (on Phoenix) is the most important thing, everything else can be dealt with quite easily (Ascension via Decay/Trophy, Pyro via Echoing Decay, Drakes/TiTi via Push/Trophy/counters). Note: They are starting to play Pyromancer in their MD/SB, so some form of sweeper (aka Echoing Decay) should be in the 75 to deal with the Tokens/Pyromancers. Hence, I might upp the count of Echoing Decay to two going forward.
Overall felt quite comfortable in that match-up, even though due to their recurring creatures it is kinda iffy.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Kathal, you've wanted to draw 2 Wilderness Reclamation in a game more often than not? Gosh, I've wanted to draw 0 more often than 2. I tend to reserve tutoring for Clutch of the Undercity when I'm about to hit 7 lands, so I can tutor for and cast WR in the same turn. Otherwise, I have better instants to be tutoring for.
I generally find sticking multiple WRs at once to be rather win-more, anyway. The only time I want to draw multiple WRs is when the first one gets discarded or countered, and the targeted discard decks generally make WR a do-nothing card fairly often from my experience (BGx Midrange, Death's Shadow decks).
As an actual spell, Clutch of the Undercity is also surprisingly good against Whir Prison and their love of protecting rocks with Welding Jar and recurring them with Academy Ruins.
I want to draw at least one Reclamation, two more often than not. Why? Cause than I can abuse Snappy and Teachings. Without them, those two cards are clunky to say it this way (and of course Tar Pit). For Snappy it is kinda strange, but since you want to do Cryptic Chains I need 6+ mana in their turn, so if I want to do anything else (aka Cantrips/Teachings/Tar Pits/other stuff) I cannot do it. The play I did most often (especially post board vs Phoenix) was tap or counter + bounce snappy to re-use the same Snappy several times (peak was 6 times in a pre-board game, he never drew a Burn spell after the 2 Bolts + 2 Gut Shot from the early game). It just buys so much time to get the Teachings engine rolling.
It also allows an early BSZ to restock your hand, which I value extremely high.
Otherwise, I have not played against Whir Prison so far, however, due to Cryptic being able to bounce their Witchbane Orb pre board combined with our win con of BSZ it is quite easy to win game 1 (at least I think so). Game 2 they will bring in Spellskite to combat the bounce, which makes it a little bit more iffy. However, since they cannot mill us out (due to Nexus of Fate) they are required to win via Spellbomb or Grid, Spellbomb can be dealt with (Surgical/Crypt Incursion) Grid is a problem, but can be dealt with the Decays/Trophies. Hence, I honestly do not think that this is a bad match-up for this deck.
Hope this answer those questions.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Note: I'm rather new to the deck, so I will need way more games in to get a better feeling, so in the end I might cut the third Reclamation. Currently it just feels right to say it this way. That I only play the deck in Paper doesn't really help (have no MTGO) regarding the amount of testing I can get in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I just built this deck and went to its first LGS tournament. And I did a poor (almost horrible) 1-3.
The opponets were:
1. Merfolk (0-2)
- Mana screwed G1 and G2 and my WR got counteres both games.
2. Goblins (0-2)
- The goblins came fast and furious both games.
3. Jeskay Control (2-0)
- Out-controlled him in G1 and he got mana screwed in G2.
4. Hearthless Summoning Aggro (0-2)
- Discard and big guys just got the job done
Apart from the lack of real testing and experience of the deck, I found that this deck has a bad time against agro. And luckly I dodged all BGx with their 1,000,000 discard spells.
So... How this deck wins against agro? Cryptic Command can delay the defeat, but without a sweeper in maindeck, I found G1 too fragile the the matchup.
I just built this deck and went to its first LGS tournament. And I did a poor (almost horrible) 1-3.
The opponets were:
1. Merfolk (0-2)
- Mana screwed G1 and G2 and my WR got counteres both games.
2. Goblins (0-2)
- The goblins came fast and furious both games.
3. Jeskay Control (2-0)
- Out-controlled him in G1 and he got mana screwed in G2.
4. Hearthless Summoning Aggro (0-2)
- Discard and big guys just got the job done
Apart from the lack of real testing and experience of the deck, I found that this deck has a bad time against agro. And luckly I dodged all BGx with their 1,000,000 discard spells.
So... How this deck wins against agro? Cryptic Command can delay the defeat, but without a sweeper in maindeck, I found G1 too fragile the the matchup.
First, I do NOT recommend dropping Opt from the maindeck, especially replacing it with removal. The drop in consistency (of land drops, finding sideboard cards, etc.) will come back to bite you. When boarding in removal, I'd ditch stuff like Remand, Logic Knot, and a Wilderness Reclamation.
The Burn and Mono-Red Phoenix match-ups are downright miserable in Game 1 because they attack from both creature and burn spell spam angles, and the Humans match-up is no fun either because of their disruption and their quick clock, but I've found other Game 1 match-ups against aggro decks to be salvageable. Stuff like Hardened Scales Robots, which tend to have no disruption maindeck, tend to give us some of the best Game 1 match-ups among aggro decks.
As you've already noted, Cryptic Command is great against aggro. Pulse of Murasa is also great against aggro, especially aggro with evasive creatures. Try to reserve your removal spells for their biggest threats (e.g. Steel Overseer, Thing in the Ice, Spell Queller). Snapcaster Mage is also great against aggro, to the point that bouncing him with Cryptic may be the best call. Aggressively blocking with Tiago is a good call, thanks to Pulse of Murasa being able to recur him.
I believe only trying to turn the corner and go for the Wilderness Reclamation into Nexus of Fate spam plan late is warranted against aggro; your first Mystical Teachings should likely tutor for removal/Tiago/Pulse of Murasa/Cryptic. Nevertheless, I think your endgame against aggro always does involve Nexus of Fate spam (except against Dredge, where they get themselves into Blue Sun's Zenith range quickly), and that endgame will occur sooner against aggro than against midrange or control.
Against aggro, take the first opportunity you get to cast Remand on something. Thanks to opposing Cavern of Souls, Remand is quickly rendered into a situational cantrip (but if you have nothing else to do, cast Remand on uncounterable creatures), and some aggro opponents may try to not cast spells for the rest of the game after a certain point, making Remand only usable on your own spells.
Don't bother countering removal on your permanents against aggro (well, unless you lose the game this turn otherwise or they have Cavern and Aether Vial). Your counterspells are better off hitting their threats (or, in the case of Cryptic, not being a counterspell).
The "easiest" way to win vs aggro decks I have found so far was: chain cryptics, especially with Snappy to tap + bounce (the Snappy) to generate a value chain to grind them down. I only use the counter mode against things, which I have to counter, things like Walking Balista or Ravager from Hardening Scale are prime examples here. In general, Hardening Scales is iffy due to their amount of Manlands combined with the Balista one-shots. This gives you several time walks basically, which with Wildenress Reclmation and Teachings should pull you far enough ahead to go for a big BSZ on yourself (after all those Cryptic Chains) into a win via Nexus loops.
That is the prime tool I use vs every kind of creature decks but Burn, cause against Burn it doesn't really work (since they can kill Snappy).
Edit says: That is also the reason, why I upped the Opt count (running 4 now) and also kinda want the 4th Reclamation, so that I can set it up easier (the value grind you down chain).
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
You guys know that a single Push or a Bolt at Snapcaster in response of cryptic trying to bounce him would counter all effects of that Cryptic, right? So that is not as reliable as you are saying.
While I don't like to cut Opts, it's the easiest piece of the deck that can be switched, because with 4 Remand, 4 Cryptics, 4 Growth Spiral and 1 Hierographic there are 13 draw apells already, not countsing 3 Spancasters. And all those sounds more importante than Opt.
Still, I don't know if I'm not playing the deck right, or it needs more removal (at least 1 sweeper) maindeck.
By the way, I've been playing a bant version of this deck for the past few weeks and very happy with it, with only a light black splash for flashbacking teachings and playing trophy. White gives you access to powerful cards like path, settle the wreckage, spell queller and some powerful sideboard cards. Also instead of snapcasters I'm playing eternal witness which combines very well with Wilderness Reclamation into an eternal command loop.
I'll post my decklist later today, now at work.
edit: Oh and I don't play Nexus, because is in my opinion a bit of win-more. But not yet 100% sure about that though.
You already lose the Burn match-up hard in Game 1, so maybe the additional mana base pain for Dark Bant is worthwhile...although I'd imagine that opposing Field of Ruin players will gun for your Watery Grave and then it's bye bye to flashing back Mystical Teachings. I'm also not a fan of Serum Visions in this deck--you don't have much in the way of sorcery-speed plays in this deck, and you have a harder time holding up counterspells with SV than with Opt.
Settle the Wreckage is awesome as a board wipe you can Teachings for, but tutoring for it with Teachings awkwardly reveals that you're forcing it into your hand, guaranteeing that your opponents will play around it unless you like 8-mana board wipes (Teachings into Settle the Wreckage in the same turn).
Secure the Wastes seems like a dang fine finisher to Teachings for, though. Shame it cannot kill the turn you play it...
You guys know that a single Push or a Bolt at Snapcaster in response of cryptic trying to bounce him would counter all effects of that Cryptic, right? So that is not as reliable as you are saying.
While I don't like to cut Opts, it's the easiest piece of the deck that can be switched, because with 4 Remand, 4 Cryptics, 4 Growth Spiral and 1 Hierographic there are 13 draw apells already, not countsing 3 Spancasters. And all those sounds more importante than Opt.
Still, I don't know if I'm not playing the deck right, or it needs more removal (at least 1 sweeper) maindeck.
Regards,
bitbroosher.
It's definitely true that your opponent killing/booting Tiago in response causes the entire opponent's-field-tapping-Cryptic to fizzle. That's why I generally opt to cantrip with Cryptic instead if I have no more Cryptics in the graveyard.
If you fear the aggro match-up that much, I'd rather cut Spell Snare, Logic Knot, and Remand. (I have still never tutored for Spell Snare.) That tunes the deck against aggro but does lose it percentage points against other decks.
In the meantime, I tested the Humans match-up more last night, and it turns out that constantly tutoring for Cryptic and Tiago against them does raise the Game 1 match-up to as salvageable as the non-burn-heavy aggro decks. Your biggest priority is killing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (killing Meddling Mage and Kitesail Freebooter is also great at times) because this deck is extremely mana-hungry. Be aware that Aether Vial on 3 charge counters can mess with your constant-Cryptic plan because they can sneak in Mantis Rider and Tajic, Legion's Edge post-Cryptic.
I really like the options bant offers over sultai. The mana is not that much more painful when you only need black on turn 5 or 6 for flashbacking teachings (and sometimes for trophy which you also rather play late game when the extra land matters less).
It's definitely not a fully optimized list though. Things I'm testing:
- sphinx's revelation over zenith (pro: lifegain is better against aggro, con: can't target opponent)
- no nexus (pro: is dead card early and often winmore late, con: is useful sometimes)
- eternal witness over snapcaster (pros: eternal command loop with WR + gives you 4th land if needed, con: sorcery speed)
- the 4th WR (pro: I really want to have it always, and having two in play is better than having zero, con: takes up a spot in the deck)
Have you guys experimented with other colors than BUG?
Sadly no, I just played the BUG version so far. I have seen some RUG versions, but I never liked them, cause they have worse man lands (Ravine vs Tar Pit) and I have the opinion, that Bolt sucks atm.
I would run BSZ above Rev, cause it is the primary win con for me, so while the Life gain is nice, I would rather want the BSZ win con instead. I'm also not that sure anymore regarding Nexus. It has some things going for it and I like it in some match-ups, the big question (at least for me) is, if I can get away by cutting it and add a different high impact card to the deck (or just another cantrip ). I like Eternal Witness, especially with Pulse of Murasa (cause you can set-up an "infinite" loop, by blocking with Witness and than rebuying it via Pulse). However, I find Witness to clunky, even in the Eternal Command deck (which plays Vial to mitigate that problem). Than again, need to test it with WR to get a better grasp of it.
I played the original list from MTGGoldfish a few rounds yesterday in paper at my LGS, against Burn and Mill. Was miserable the whole time. I won one single game. Probably just bad matchups, but wanted to get a feel for the deck. But with that experience, I decided that Fatal Push is probably worth running three. My reasoning is that it's the best removal for everything that Remand doesn't have good mana parity with. Devour Flesh seems neat, but not mainboard neat. Many of the other changes seem like stuff other people are already on board with (Crypt Incursion in the side, a second Life Goes On in the side). I did decide on one Torrential Gearhulk, only because it makes it so I only have to chain a couple of Cryptics or Nexus' to swing for wins, reducing the clock by quite a margin and reducing the setup for wins by a good deal. I'm not convinced on the Whispers of the Muse, as it seems almost like a win-more.
I decided on using Supreme Will, after how well they performed for me in Mono Blue Tron. They seem to be doing well here so far as well, allowing me to dig for "combo pieces" (Wilderness Reclamation, assembling multiple Cryptics, etc.). They're pretty good on curve, after having a decent number of one-drop and two-drop plays in the deck.
Notion Thief is just a testing thing for now, against those Storm/Faithless Looting/control decks.
Played a few more games. I went to four Opt main, ditching the Whispers. I also went to three Snaps instead of the Gearhulk. Gearhulk did good work, but just for testing purposes, going back to 3 Snaps. Also, I was working from memory, so forgot about Decay and Trophy. I do feel like Will is great in that spot, but I do also worry about cards that get past Remand that Push can't hit (noncreature permanents, etc.). Also dropped the Notion Thief from the side, throwing in another Pulse of Murasa for the extra assistance on surviving early burn and whatnot, while still being good against grindy decks.
EDIT 2: Played some more games. Had a few where I would just flood out. Adjusted my list, -1 Supreme Will, -1 Polluted Delta, +1 Search for Azcanta, +1 Hieroglyphic Illumination. The Burn/aggro matchups are doing much better now with the sideboard life gain and removal suite.
I've been watching every VOD and reading everything that anyone has written about this deck so far, please keep the posts coming everyone! Ever since twin got banned, this is the first deck where I feel like I'm falling in love and want to play it (helps that sultai is my favorite color wedge). I'm planning on picking it up in 2 weeks when I get my work bonus.
Any new innovations happening? Any flex slots/fun-ofs that are finding success in your personal lists? I'm going to renew my manatraders account this weekend to test before I buy the paper cards, but for now I'm living vicariously through all of you.
I've been watching every VOD and reading everything that anyone has written about this deck so far, please keep the posts coming everyone! Ever since twin got banned, this is the first deck where I feel like I'm falling in love and want to play it (helps that sultai is my favorite color wedge). I'm planning on picking it up in 2 weeks when I get my work bonus.
Any new innovations happening? Any flex slots/fun-ofs that are finding success in your personal lists? I'm going to renew my manatraders account this weekend to test before I buy the paper cards, but for now I'm living vicariously through all of you.
I need content, feed me!
Also curious about this deck. Mind sharing the content you're finding? I'm curious to watch a bit before I take the plunge on this deck.
I've been watching every VOD and reading everything that anyone has written about this deck so far, please keep the posts coming everyone! Ever since twin got banned, this is the first deck where I feel like I'm falling in love and want to play it (helps that sultai is my favorite color wedge). I'm planning on picking it up in 2 weeks when I get my work bonus.
Any new innovations happening? Any flex slots/fun-ofs that are finding success in your personal lists? I'm going to renew my manatraders account this weekend to test before I buy the paper cards, but for now I'm living vicariously through all of you.
I need content, feed me!
Also curious about this deck. Mind sharing the content you're finding? I'm curious to watch a bit before I take the plunge on this deck.
Playlist from (afaik) the creator of the deck. I could be off base but FTZZ is the first person who I saw piloting/tweaking the list.
What I have noticed so far is, that 25 lands is to much, 24 feels fine, but I think, that 23 might be the correct number of lands. This deck draws so many darn cards (4 Cantrips, 4 Remands, 4 Growth Spiral, 1 Hiro, 4 Cryptic) and I get flooded so often, it is kinda gross. Hence, I'm currently looking for cards, which can turn those excessive lands into cards, Chemister's Insight is currently the one which I'm testing (turns one land into a fresh card). Nexus drops more and more and is now more of an "rather cute but sadly necessary preboard" card. Without it I found it kinda though winning against different decks, from Burn to Tron, close to everything was in there. However, what I also noticed was, that Nexus is the main reason, why I would want 2 Wilderness in play. So if I'm cutting Nexus I will also cut the third Wilderness most likely (same thought process, I should still be able to find it quite easy). However, by cutting another land, I run into the problem of the Revolt enabler (I only have 6 fetches already). Hence, I cannot cut a Fetch, so one Breeding Pool or the Field of Ruin are the cards I consider to cut.
And even than, I would want to add at least another cantrip to the deck to compensate the land cut (so land for Cantrip, Nexus for Insight, Reclaim for a interacting piece which ideally cantrips but have not found something I'm happy about).
The Echoing Decay MD has been impressing me more and more. It is more often than not a sweeper for poor people, especially against Burn. Hence, that one will stay in the MD
I'm also currently pondering about cutting the Pulse of Murasa for the Crypt Incursion (so swap it around between MD and SB). I want the MD life gain, the big question is if I want value (by bringing back Snappy/Land) or graveyard interaction. The MD Crypt gets more interesting if I also move the Consume the Meek into the MD (which would be in the Nexus slot), cause more bodies to eat due to a sweeper.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
On Pulse of Murasa vs. Crypt Incursion maindeck:
As much as needing a target sucks at times, and as annoying as it gets when the target is sucked up in response and no life is therefore gained, I'd rather play Pulse of Murasa maindeck. I like my 6 life guaranteed, and casting it a 2nd time with Tiago gets me up 12 life from before guaranteed and gets the game out of reach from aggro quite a bit of the time.
I know, that "guaranteed" 6 (+6 from Snappy) life is golden in the Burn match-up, but I would want Pulse for the more grindy ones (which I already think we are good of). It would be basically a MD hate card for Dredge and Phoenix, especially Phoenix only beats us if they can land an early Phoenix and than sustain it over the game. TiTi and Drake are way to clunky vs us, especially on the play cause they are great Remand Targets. Phoenix is the only card, which gives me headache to say it this way and Crypt Incursion is somewhat better here (although I have returned several Phoenixes already via Pulse, I would rather exile them instead ). That Crypt Incursion is also better vs some other decks in some way or another also makes a strong case for me.
Than again, as I said, needs testing.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
If you intend Whir to be a Teachings tutor target, then it's slower and clunkier than even my Clutch of the Undercity (and even then, me finding it with Teachings or making it find Teachings is a late-game play).
We already have several CA outlets in this deck. The CA artifacts are unnecessary.
The hate rocks are a better idea, but we've generally found instants that do their jobs well enough (graveyard hate, prevent attacks, etc.).
Overall, Whir is slow and consumes valuable deck slots.
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Breeding Pool
2 Watery Grave
2 Hinterland Harbor
1 Flooded Grove
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Field of Ruin
//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
//Removal
2 Fatal Push
1 Echoing Decay
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
//Utility
4 Opt
4 Growth Spiral
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Hieroglyphic Illumination
3 Wilderness Reclamation
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Nexus of Fate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
1 Devour Flesh
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Consume the Meek
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Life goes On
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Vendilion Clique
Most noteably I cut a land and added a Opt (to compensate) since I had a serious flooding problem so far. Not exactly sure if Polluted Delta is the correct cut or if I should go for the Field instead. Needs more testing (liked the Field so far).
Otherwise relatively "stock" list to say it this way. I kinda want to squeeze either the Crypt Incursion or the Surgical MD, since there are a lot of match-ups where I would want it. Than again Consume the Meek has been pretty bonkers so far too, so I really need to figure things out on what silverbullet I exactly want in the MD. Btw. I would play the Consume above the third Push MD, since they fulfil a similar role.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: And the deck is so much fun
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
-) I never got mana screwed even though I cut a Fetch. However, what I noticed was, that the mana became a little bit more iffy (not having access to B e.g). Reason for this was mainly the Flooded Grove, so I might switch the Flooded Grove over to a Polluted, if I get the feeling that Flooded is more of an liability than anything else.
-) 4+1 1CMC Cantrips was bonkers, kinda wanted another one since I was able to find the stuff I wanted quite reliable (Teachings/Snaps/Cryptics)
-) Echoing Decay > Devour Flesh MD if your meta is not invested with Shadow. It is better in so many darn match-ups (but Shadow and BGx), so I will stick with it MD.
-) 3 Wilderness felt clunky, but I wanted to draw two more often than not, so I will stick with 3 to get them more reliable (and no, switching one for a Sorc speed tutor (Cluthc of the Undercity) is even worse, cause it is Sorc speed. I would rather play a Mastermind's Acquisition above it and even that one sucks balls.
-) The more I play with the deck the more unnecessary it feels to play Nexus. Sure, there were a lot of times where looping turns was cool, but more often than not it is simply not needed (also a reason why I board it out every time). I might put in the SB for the match-ups where I really want it and instead add another form of interaction (need to ponder about which one), but more testing needed on that end.
-) Got 6 pre and post board games in vs UR Phoenix with 2 MD Ascension. MD Echoing Decay helped a lot, but I still went 2-4 pre board. Problem is: No permanent out vs Phoenix. Wins involved looping of Nexus with Wilderness to pull far enough ahead to be able to BSZ yourself for a bunch to get a Cryptic Chain going. Post board it was 4-2, should have been 5-1 but messed a game up. Surgical (on Phoenix) is the most important thing, everything else can be dealt with quite easily (Ascension via Decay/Trophy, Pyro via Echoing Decay, Drakes/TiTi via Push/Trophy/counters). Note: They are starting to play Pyromancer in their MD/SB, so some form of sweeper (aka Echoing Decay) should be in the 75 to deal with the Tokens/Pyromancers. Hence, I might upp the count of Echoing Decay to two going forward.
Overall felt quite comfortable in that match-up, even though due to their recurring creatures it is kinda iffy.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I generally find sticking multiple WRs at once to be rather win-more, anyway. The only time I want to draw multiple WRs is when the first one gets discarded or countered, and the targeted discard decks generally make WR a do-nothing card fairly often from my experience (BGx Midrange, Death's Shadow decks).
As an actual spell, Clutch of the Undercity is also surprisingly good against Whir Prison and their love of protecting rocks with Welding Jar and recurring them with Academy Ruins.
It also allows an early BSZ to restock your hand, which I value extremely high.
Otherwise, I have not played against Whir Prison so far, however, due to Cryptic being able to bounce their Witchbane Orb pre board combined with our win con of BSZ it is quite easy to win game 1 (at least I think so). Game 2 they will bring in Spellskite to combat the bounce, which makes it a little bit more iffy. However, since they cannot mill us out (due to Nexus of Fate) they are required to win via Spellbomb or Grid, Spellbomb can be dealt with (Surgical/Crypt Incursion) Grid is a problem, but can be dealt with the Decays/Trophies. Hence, I honestly do not think that this is a bad match-up for this deck.
Hope this answer those questions.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Note: I'm rather new to the deck, so I will need way more games in to get a better feeling, so in the end I might cut the third Reclamation. Currently it just feels right to say it this way. That I only play the deck in Paper doesn't really help (have no MTGO) regarding the amount of testing I can get in.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I just built this deck and went to its first LGS tournament. And I did a poor (almost horrible) 1-3.
The opponets were:
1. Merfolk (0-2)
- Mana screwed G1 and G2 and my WR got counteres both games.
2. Goblins (0-2)
- The goblins came fast and furious both games.
3. Jeskay Control (2-0)
- Out-controlled him in G1 and he got mana screwed in G2.
4. Hearthless Summoning Aggro (0-2)
- Discard and big guys just got the job done
Apart from the lack of real testing and experience of the deck, I found that this deck has a bad time against agro. And luckly I dodged all BGx with their 1,000,000 discard spells.
So... How this deck wins against agro? Cryptic Command can delay the defeat, but without a sweeper in maindeck, I found G1 too fragile the the matchup.
Any tips here?
I might try this changes to maindeck:
-3 Opt
+3 Removal (Consume the Meek, Fatal Push and Echoing Decay are my first choices)
Regards,
bitbroosher
First, I do NOT recommend dropping Opt from the maindeck, especially replacing it with removal. The drop in consistency (of land drops, finding sideboard cards, etc.) will come back to bite you. When boarding in removal, I'd ditch stuff like Remand, Logic Knot, and a Wilderness Reclamation.
The Burn and Mono-Red Phoenix match-ups are downright miserable in Game 1 because they attack from both creature and burn spell spam angles, and the Humans match-up is no fun either because of their disruption and their quick clock, but I've found other Game 1 match-ups against aggro decks to be salvageable. Stuff like Hardened Scales Robots, which tend to have no disruption maindeck, tend to give us some of the best Game 1 match-ups among aggro decks.
As you've already noted, Cryptic Command is great against aggro. Pulse of Murasa is also great against aggro, especially aggro with evasive creatures. Try to reserve your removal spells for their biggest threats (e.g. Steel Overseer, Thing in the Ice, Spell Queller). Snapcaster Mage is also great against aggro, to the point that bouncing him with Cryptic may be the best call. Aggressively blocking with Tiago is a good call, thanks to Pulse of Murasa being able to recur him.
I believe only trying to turn the corner and go for the Wilderness Reclamation into Nexus of Fate spam plan late is warranted against aggro; your first Mystical Teachings should likely tutor for removal/Tiago/Pulse of Murasa/Cryptic. Nevertheless, I think your endgame against aggro always does involve Nexus of Fate spam (except against Dredge, where they get themselves into Blue Sun's Zenith range quickly), and that endgame will occur sooner against aggro than against midrange or control.
Against aggro, take the first opportunity you get to cast Remand on something. Thanks to opposing Cavern of Souls, Remand is quickly rendered into a situational cantrip (but if you have nothing else to do, cast Remand on uncounterable creatures), and some aggro opponents may try to not cast spells for the rest of the game after a certain point, making Remand only usable on your own spells.
Don't bother countering removal on your permanents against aggro (well, unless you lose the game this turn otherwise or they have Cavern and Aether Vial). Your counterspells are better off hitting their threats (or, in the case of Cryptic, not being a counterspell).
That is the prime tool I use vs every kind of creature decks but Burn, cause against Burn it doesn't really work (since they can kill Snappy).
Edit says: That is also the reason, why I upped the Opt count (running 4 now) and also kinda want the 4th Reclamation, so that I can set it up easier (the value grind you down chain).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
You guys know that a single Push or a Bolt at Snapcaster in response of cryptic trying to bounce him would counter all effects of that Cryptic, right? So that is not as reliable as you are saying.
While I don't like to cut Opts, it's the easiest piece of the deck that can be switched, because with 4 Remand, 4 Cryptics, 4 Growth Spiral and 1 Hierographic there are 13 draw apells already, not countsing 3 Spancasters. And all those sounds more importante than Opt.
Still, I don't know if I'm not playing the deck right, or it needs more removal (at least 1 sweeper) maindeck.
Regards,
bitbroosher.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-sultai-wilderness-teachings-modern-magic-online
By the way, I've been playing a bant version of this deck for the past few weeks and very happy with it, with only a light black splash for flashbacking teachings and playing trophy. White gives you access to powerful cards like path, settle the wreckage, spell queller and some powerful sideboard cards. Also instead of snapcasters I'm playing eternal witness which combines very well with Wilderness Reclamation into an eternal command loop.
I'll post my decklist later today, now at work.
edit: Oh and I don't play Nexus, because is in my opinion a bit of win-more. But not yet 100% sure about that though.
In 30th place is ya boi Ftzz:
1 Field of Ruin
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Flooded Grove
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Breeding Pool
2 Watery Grave
4 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Wilderness Reclamation
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Cryptic Command
1 Devour Flesh
2 Fatal Push
4 Growth Spiral
1 Logic Knot
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Nexus of Fate
4 Opt
1 Pulse of Murasa
4 Remand
1 Spell Snare
2 Fatal Push
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Consume the Meek
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Decay
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Life Goes On
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Surgical Extraction
Of note, the maindeck Hieroglyphic Illumination has been turned into a 4th Opt, and the fetchland configuration has slightly changed.
In 32nd place is a closely related deck, Dark Bant Wilderness Teachings Turns:
1 Field of Ruin
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hinterland Harbor
1 Memorial to Genius
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Wilderness Reclamation
4 Serum Visions
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Cryptic Command
4 Growth Spiral
1 Logic Knot
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Nexus of Fate
1 Opt
4 Path to Exile
1 Pulse of Murasa
3 Remand
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Condemn
1 Dispel
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Negate
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Rest in Peace
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
You already lose the Burn match-up hard in Game 1, so maybe the additional mana base pain for Dark Bant is worthwhile...although I'd imagine that opposing Field of Ruin players will gun for your Watery Grave and then it's bye bye to flashing back Mystical Teachings. I'm also not a fan of Serum Visions in this deck--you don't have much in the way of sorcery-speed plays in this deck, and you have a harder time holding up counterspells with SV than with Opt.
Settle the Wreckage is awesome as a board wipe you can Teachings for, but tutoring for it with Teachings awkwardly reveals that you're forcing it into your hand, guaranteeing that your opponents will play around it unless you like 8-mana board wipes (Teachings into Settle the Wreckage in the same turn).
Secure the Wastes seems like a dang fine finisher to Teachings for, though. Shame it cannot kill the turn you play it...
It's definitely true that your opponent killing/booting Tiago in response causes the entire opponent's-field-tapping-Cryptic to fizzle. That's why I generally opt to cantrip with Cryptic instead if I have no more Cryptics in the graveyard.
If you fear the aggro match-up that much, I'd rather cut Spell Snare, Logic Knot, and Remand. (I have still never tutored for Spell Snare.) That tunes the deck against aggro but does lose it percentage points against other decks.
In the meantime, I tested the Humans match-up more last night, and it turns out that constantly tutoring for Cryptic and Tiago against them does raise the Game 1 match-up to as salvageable as the non-burn-heavy aggro decks. Your biggest priority is killing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (killing Meddling Mage and Kitesail Freebooter is also great at times) because this deck is extremely mana-hungry. Be aware that Aether Vial on 3 charge counters can mess with your constant-Cryptic plan because they can sneak in Mantis Rider and Tajic, Legion's Edge post-Cryptic.
1 snapcaster mage
2 eternal witness
2 spell queller
spells
4 opt
3 path to exile
4 remand
4 growth spiral
1 blessed alliance
1 assassin's trophy
1 pulse of murasa
4 wilderness reclamation
4 cryptic command
3 mystical teachings
1 settle the wreckage
1 blue sun's zenith
2 celestial colonnade
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 temple garden
1 hallowed fountain
1 watery grave
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 hinterland harbor
1 flooded grove
1 plains
1 forest
3 island
1 supreme verdict
1 settle the wreckage
2 knight of autumn
1 surgical extraction
1 pulse of murasa
1 fracturing gust
1 assassin's trophy
2 unmoored ego
1 baneslayer angel
1 lyra dawnbringer
2 dispel
1 vendilion clique
I really like the options bant offers over sultai. The mana is not that much more painful when you only need black on turn 5 or 6 for flashbacking teachings (and sometimes for trophy which you also rather play late game when the extra land matters less).
It's definitely not a fully optimized list though. Things I'm testing:
- sphinx's revelation over zenith (pro: lifegain is better against aggro, con: can't target opponent)
- no nexus (pro: is dead card early and often winmore late, con: is useful sometimes)
- eternal witness over snapcaster (pros: eternal command loop with WR + gives you 4th land if needed, con: sorcery speed)
- the 4th WR (pro: I really want to have it always, and having two in play is better than having zero, con: takes up a spot in the deck)
Have you guys experimented with other colors than BUG?
I would run BSZ above Rev, cause it is the primary win con for me, so while the Life gain is nice, I would rather want the BSZ win con instead. I'm also not that sure anymore regarding Nexus. It has some things going for it and I like it in some match-ups, the big question (at least for me) is, if I can get away by cutting it and add a different high impact card to the deck (or just another cantrip ). I like Eternal Witness, especially with Pulse of Murasa (cause you can set-up an "infinite" loop, by blocking with Witness and than rebuying it via Pulse). However, I find Witness to clunky, even in the Eternal Command deck (which plays Vial to mitigate that problem). Than again, need to test it with WR to get a better grasp of it.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Eternal Witness is cool with Mastermind's Acquisition, although to cute
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
// 4 Enchantment
3 Wilderness Reclamation
1 Search for Azcanta
// 29 Instant
3 Fatal Push
4 Opt
1 Spell Snare
4 Growth Spiral
4 Remand
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Cryptic Command
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Nexus of Fate
// 24 Land
3 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Field of Ruin
1 Flooded Grove
1 Forest
2 Hinterland Harbor
4 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
// 1 Creature
1 Nimble Obstructionist
// 14 Instant
2 Dispel
1 Fatal Push
2 Life Goes On
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Devour Flesh
1 Echoing Decay
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Consume the Meek
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Pulse of Murasa
I played the original list from MTGGoldfish a few rounds yesterday in paper at my LGS, against Burn and Mill. Was miserable the whole time. I won one single game. Probably just bad matchups, but wanted to get a feel for the deck. But with that experience, I decided that Fatal Push is probably worth running three. My reasoning is that it's the best removal for everything that Remand doesn't have good mana parity with. Devour Flesh seems neat, but not mainboard neat. Many of the other changes seem like stuff other people are already on board with (Crypt Incursion in the side, a second Life Goes On in the side).
I did decide on one Torrential Gearhulk, only because it makes it so I only have to chain a couple of Cryptics or Nexus' to swing for wins, reducing the clock by quite a margin and reducing the setup for wins by a good deal. I'm not convinced on the Whispers of the Muse, as it seems almost like a win-more.I decided on using Supreme Will, after how well they performed for me in Mono Blue Tron. They seem to be doing well here so far as well, allowing me to dig for "combo pieces" (Wilderness Reclamation, assembling multiple Cryptics, etc.). They're pretty good on curve, after having a decent number of one-drop and two-drop plays in the deck.
Notion Thief is just a testing thing for now, against those Storm/Faithless Looting/control decks.Played a few more games. I went to four Opt main, ditching the Whispers. I also went to three Snaps instead of the Gearhulk. Gearhulk did good work, but just for testing purposes, going back to 3 Snaps. Also, I was working from memory, so forgot about Decay and Trophy. I do feel like Will is great in that spot, but I do also worry about cards that get past Remand that Push can't hit (noncreature permanents, etc.). Also dropped the Notion Thief from the side, throwing in another Pulse of Murasa for the extra assistance on surviving early burn and whatnot, while still being good against grindy decks.
EDIT 2: Played some more games. Had a few where I would just flood out. Adjusted my list, -1 Supreme Will, -1 Polluted Delta, +1 Search for Azcanta, +1 Hieroglyphic Illumination. The Burn/aggro matchups are doing much better now with the sideboard life gain and removal suite.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Any new innovations happening? Any flex slots/fun-ofs that are finding success in your personal lists? I'm going to renew my manatraders account this weekend to test before I buy the paper cards, but for now I'm living vicariously through all of you.
I need content, feed me!
Also curious about this deck. Mind sharing the content you're finding? I'm curious to watch a bit before I take the plunge on this deck.
Playlist from (afaik) the creator of the deck. I could be off base but FTZZ is the first person who I saw piloting/tweaking the list.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUMfwqGUOscj2XHgDcI4IOe6ILEr350u3
Saffron Olive league:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUQziZlJXAM
Haven't watched this video yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rShSKDC3G8
Also the discord, I don't have it off hand but I believe FTZZ posted it on reddit (and possibly in this thread somewhere?)
*Edit* Found the reddit thread and discord link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/as11o1/ftzz_sultai_wilderness_resources/
Discord:
https://discord.gg/tp7RFh
And even than, I would want to add at least another cantrip to the deck to compensate the land cut (so land for Cantrip, Nexus for Insight, Reclaim for a interacting piece which ideally cantrips but have not found something I'm happy about).
The Echoing Decay MD has been impressing me more and more. It is more often than not a sweeper for poor people, especially against Burn. Hence, that one will stay in the MD
I'm also currently pondering about cutting the Pulse of Murasa for the Crypt Incursion (so swap it around between MD and SB). I want the MD life gain, the big question is if I want value (by bringing back Snappy/Land) or graveyard interaction. The MD Crypt gets more interesting if I also move the Consume the Meek into the MD (which would be in the Nexus slot), cause more bodies to eat due to a sweeper.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
And thats super rare in modern.
As much as needing a target sucks at times, and as annoying as it gets when the target is sucked up in response and no life is therefore gained, I'd rather play Pulse of Murasa maindeck. I like my 6 life guaranteed, and casting it a 2nd time with Tiago gets me up 12 life from before guaranteed and gets the game out of reach from aggro quite a bit of the time.
Than again, as I said, needs testing.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Competetive: Lantern Control, MonoR Phoenix, Dredge
Meta-Dependant: Modern Cheeri0s, Esper Spirits, Wilderness Teachings , Modern Elves, All-in Death's Shadow, Aristocrats, BW Death&Taxes
Fun own projects: Spireside Industries, UB Scrapyard, Thundercat Worship, Dirty Kitten, RB Rock, Eternal Toolbox
If you intend Whir to be a Teachings tutor target, then it's slower and clunkier than even my Clutch of the Undercity (and even then, me finding it with Teachings or making it find Teachings is a late-game play).
We already have several CA outlets in this deck. The CA artifacts are unnecessary.
The hate rocks are a better idea, but we've generally found instants that do their jobs well enough (graveyard hate, prevent attacks, etc.).
Overall, Whir is slow and consumes valuable deck slots.
Still feeling them out, though