I"m actually some random guy from Italy that popped out of nowhere lol.
Anyway, I'll try Reveillark for sure, it has a lot of potential! On the other hand, cards like Hall of the Bandit Lord and Ranger of Eos + 1Drops aren't that appealing, I simply don't believe we have enough slots to include that package of combo-enablers. Tomorrow I'll post my list, I still need to do some testing
Because my aim is to quickly combo off--opponents not killing Vannifar are signs that they may not have removal, and I believe we should punish those players as quickly and harshly as possible--I've left in only the best hate bears. Hate permanents are now common enough in Game 1 that I've put Deputy of Detention in the maindeck. Knight of Autumn has been a barely-good-enough Swiss army knife. Scavenging Ooze is a graveyard-hating bear that can get enormous. Magus of the Moon sometimes harms my plan, but I can still combo off with the 1-drop chain as long as I don't use up my land drop for the turn until after Scryb Ranger bounces a Forest, and it's very powerful against some decks and starts.
Losing singletons pre-combo has occasionally been troublesome, but those slow down my combo at worst--though, occasionally, the loss of turns has cost me the game against faster decks. Note that a Scryb Ranger in play can also be turned into the combo in 1 turn, and Phantasmal Image enables the 2-drop and 1-drop chain without Scryb Ranger.
So for the 1-drop chain, I think I'm missing something.
1-drop -> Scryb, untap pod
Scryb -> Rallier, get back scryb and untap pod
Scryb -> Deceiver Exarch, untap pod
Exarch -> Resto, blink Rallier to get back Scryb (or just blink exarch), untap pod
Exarch -> ??? Ranger of Eos? But now what?
Also, how's the manabase working out for you? It seems really rough and extremely vulnerable to field of ruin and any land disruption whatsoever
Don't sac Exarch. Sac Rallier and get Resto Angel, flickering Exarch and untapping Vannifar. Now sac Resto for Kiki Jiki and copy Exarch, pointing triggers at Kiki and creating the army.
For mana, you really should be able to go UGw and keep a stable manabase. UGWR is definitely hard to support though.
Don't sac Exarch. Sac Rallier and get Resto Angel, flickering Exarch and untapping Vannifar. Now sac Resto for Kiki Jiki and copy Exarch, pointing triggers at Kiki and creating the army.
For mana, you really should be able to go UGw and keep a stable manabase. UGWR is definitely hard to support though.
Hahaha thanks I just realized what I was doing wrong. Yeah makes sense for manabase, that sounds reasonable.
For mana, you really should be able to go UGw and keep a stable manabase. UGWR is definitely hard to support though.
The mana base is... rough to say the least. Heck, I've been considering going just UGR, but we lose too many "board states" with that.
I've been considering dropping Hallowed Fountain and Steam Vents in the case that I eventually end up on that side of the line that Ifeel like I am shocking myself too much. It all really depends on how much aggro there is in the environment.
It seems there's all sorts of takes on this deck. The problem I have with trying to use rhythm of the wilds or other haste enablers is it either decreases the reliability of the deck, or reduces valuetown style creatures.
Yeah this is primarily a combo deck, but the combo is going to get shut down pretty often and so we should be able to hold up some amount of aggro as a plan B.
I like the back up combos, plus other creatures which can stretch the game out like having more Renegade Ralliers or playing Suntitan. I like the way he has structured it, if the card is a key combo piece then it's at least a 2 of, that way you have a backup if cards get removed / stuck in hand / etc.
There's a lot of ideas here which is really great. I just thought i'd share my opinion on chord and evo slightly...
1. Evo is obviously quicker. However, I feel like that kicks in much more in the sideboard games, where you can go get very specific bullets and lock people out much quicker (eidolon vs storm for example).
2. Chord gives pod haste. Again, I realise this has already been said, but chording for 4 on opps end step gives the opponent much less time to react. How relevant that'll be though, I'm not sure. Chording for 4 is 7 mana, so realistically isn't happening until your own turn 4 at the earliest, which could be the opponents turn 5 end step. Against anything remotely linear, you're already dead. Against anything controlling, a lot of their interaction comes at instant speed anyway, so the end step trick hardly matters.
I think we'll find Evo the better route. The lists I'm seeing at the moment are already pretty well placed vs midrange/control and should fair well against agro too (depending on your finks count). However, the linear decks are going to be faster than us and hard to interact with using the mainboard. A T2 scooze isn't going to do much against dredge, as an example, and it'll do even less vs KCI. As a result, getting to your SB bombs quicker is going to matter, so Evo is going to pull its weight.
Having said all of that, I just like chord more. Witness lines with Chord were always cool, and instant speed tricks are fun too.
Just a few more points. First @Kathal - you said "so I rate Shalai way higher than Spellskite". The difference on the curve is an important fact to remember. Being able to go T1 BOP into T2 Spellskite means your T3 Vannifar is much more likely to get the job done. It's not a wincon, at all, but flashing in a spellskite off a chord is much more realistic than a Shalai too. Shalai fills a different role, which is a mana sink. But I'm just not sure at this stage if we need it. I will be running a township and a couple of scooze, as well as chords. They're all really good at eating mana. Also, we're pretty heavy on 4-drops for combo pieces (3 resto and 4 Vannifar as stock at this point), so I don't want to be too heavy there.
On Sun Titan + Hippo + Conscripts being in the deck. I agree Hippo is pretty bad, but I actually think its comparable to seedcradle witch. Ranger of Eos is unexciting to say the least (grab witch + hierarch), and cradle only does a small bump for a chunk of mana. Hippo can at least create some combat tricks, and a flash 3/3 is ok against UWx etc. As far as Sun Titan being too high on the curve, its not a tonne different to a 3rd chord or a Shalai that needs a load of mana to be great. I think it's passable, but i'm also prepared for dropping hippo/titan if it doesnt work out.
On the manabase - Ive only got 1 sacred foundry and the rest of my shocks make green. This could be wrong, but having Turn 1 Green is important. I've added a single fire-lit thicket, plains, gavony township and hall of the bandit lord which all don't cast BOP, so I'm on 18 green sources. Again, ready to switch it up when it's wrong, but I like casting kiki, and casting BOPs.
@Soot - the list on MTGGoldfish is super greedy. It basically takes the curve of the "pre-ban" Kiki-pod decks, then drops 2 lands for 2 chords. I like some of whats going on in that list, but the curve is a real mess (bare in mind pod now costs 4 not 3 too). It shows off hte combos but doesn't show you a good list imo.
There's a lot of ideas here which is really great. I just thought i'd share my opinion on chord and evo slightly...
1. Evo is obviously quicker. However, I feel like that kicks in much more in the sideboard games, where you can go get very specific bullets and lock people out much quicker (eidolon vs storm for example).
2. Chord gives pod haste. Again, I realise this has already been said, but chording for 4 on opps end step gives the opponent much less time to react. How relevant that'll be though, I'm not sure. Chording for 4 is 7 mana, so realistically isn't happening until your own turn 4 at the earliest, which could be the opponents turn 5 end step. Against anything remotely linear, you're already dead. Against anything controlling, a lot of their interaction comes at instant speed anyway, so the end step trick hardly matters.
Having said all of that, I just like chord more. Witness lines with Chord were always cool, and instant speed tricks are fun too.
Yeah, I guess that's what makes Chord better than Evolution most of the time. Anyway, here's the decklist I'm currently testing:
Is Magus of the Moon viable with this complex manabase? I really love this card, but a couple of times it caused some trouble with my own lands. I'm still pretty unsure if it's the case to move him to the sideboard or not.
I really like Rhythm of the Wild, but adding 3 other non-creature spells could be a problem. I guess the only card we can remove with this perspective in mind is Eldritch Evolution, but, as I said before, I'm pretty interested on seeing if it can be good toghether with Chord.
How many copies of Prime Speaker Vannifar should we play? I've seen opposite, be it 2 or even 4 copies, so I decided to be in the middle. I don't want this deck to be too much combo-centered, since it can be too dangerous to play only with the combo as the final goal, and that's why I think 3 is the best option.
Is the manabase fine? I cut off Hanweir Battlements beacuse of the third point of this list, but I'm still not sure if this is the way to go.
On the other hand, the things I prefer the most:
Protection cards! I took inspiration from Xanian7's list on this, and I'm in love with this small bundle of cards. Spellskite is wonderful in so many ways, it can protect mana dorks, combo pieces, ecc; Shalai, Voice of Plenty is just a big beautiful wincon against certain matchups and, togheter with Gavony Township, a great way to bolster our creatures; Selfless Spirit, in the end, is a powerful card against mass removals, a really big threat to this deck.
Deputy of Detention proved to be a really good card, it saved me a bunch of times against Ponza (3 Gruul Spellbreaker were really scary) and, in general, it can be a handy card.
Domri, Chaos Bringer is really good against certain matchups, it provides a lot of utility by tutoring two creatures at the time and, most importantly, it can give Vannifar haste. Will surely keep an eye on him, he's proving to be a nice backup.
Is Magus of the Moon viable with this complex manabase? I really love this card, but a couple of times it caused some trouble with my own lands. I'm still pretty unsure if it's the case to move him to the sideboard or not.
I'd say Magus is a meta call, and now is not the time for the card to shine. Many Arclight Phoenix decks, Dredge which wants to cast Conflagrate against creature decks anyway, and so on. Magus belongs in the SB for Tron.
Second reason is that this card is cute in a deck that wants to combo every game in the current meta. Cut the cute.
I really like Rhythm of the Wild, but adding 3 other non-creature spells could be a problem. I guess the only card we can remove with this perspective in mind is Eldritch Evolution, but, as I said before, I'm pretty interested on seeing if it can be good toghether with Chord.
Enchantments are real bad in combo decks that can't find them consistently. I realized it the hard way with Intruder Alarm, a broken card in a format that don't support enchantment combos. People are so desperate they play Drift of Phantasms, what a joke ! Even Jeskai Ascendancy doesn't do anything in the format, while it was the most broken deck during the Treasure Cruise Era. Once again, cut the cute.
The main problem I see is the combo chain itself makes you play cute cards already, so you guys better not add more.
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I'd say Magus is a meta call, and now is not the time for the card to shine. Many Arclight Phoenix decks, Dredge which wants to cast Conflagrate against creature decks anyway, and so on. Magus belongs in the SB for Tron.
Second reason is that this card is cute in a deck that wants to combo every game in the current meta. Cut the cute.
The primary question should be: Against what deck is Magus even good? Against most unfair decks it is garbage (only great vs Amulet Titan), and against other decks it is mostly decent (Tron and BGx, cause against UW it does nothing).
Hence, I would not play it at all atm, maybe in the SB, but not even then I'm sure about it.
Enchantments are real bad in combo decks that can't find them consistently. I realized it the hard way with Intruder Alarm, a broken card in a format that don't support enchantment combos. People are so desperate they play Drift of Phantasms, what a joke ! Even Jeskai Ascendancy doesn't do anything in the format, while it was the most broken deck during the Treasure Cruise Era. Once again, cut the cute.
The main problem I see is the combo chain itself makes you play cute cards already, so you guys better not add more.
First and foremost, Intruder Alarm combo decks are kinda garbage, cause everything they can do (ideally) can be done by other combo decks better and more consistently.
And also the notion of Ascendancy, the deck is "garbage" cause it abused two to three banned cards, Probe, TC and DTT (for the Jeskai version). The problem was not finding Ascendancy (and isn't nowadays either) but the chain comboing is now way harder to do than with the old version. It also didn't help, that as soon as TC and DTT got banned nearly all players abandoned the deck (same thing which happened to Amulet Titan, which is still a good deck, just not busted anymore).
Either way, the comparison between Rhythm and those two cards is also iffy, since Rhythm isn't a dedicated combo card, but makes all played creatures better while the other two cards are purely combo cards. Hence, not being able to find it via tutors is not that big of an problem in this case. You can compare it to a PW basically, on what it does.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Just kind of stopping by to check out how this deck is progressing (I kind of love all combo decks). One question, is there any reason why Village Bell-Ringer isn't used here? It doesn't have Exarch's tap-down ability, but since this combo is typically going off after a chord on the opponent's end-step, tapping down a removal land seems less relevant. And Bell-Ringer can untap all your mana dorks and potentially let you cast him and chord, or chord for him and then chord for something else?
@the nobody's - I think it's simply "what card is good when you are not comboing". I think MOST of us are building a toolbox deck with a creature combo finish. I think this is the best way since you can't rely on pod and it's not the fastest combo in the world. As a result, deceiver, more often than not, will be better than bell ringer, specifically when you're on the back foot!
Rhythm looks interesting to me, but I'd not play more than 1. Its bad in multiples, and isn't even good in every match-up we play. On the flip side, Domri, Chaos Bringer is just at hte wrong point of the curve. It's a decent card for sure, but I already feel like I have too many 4 drops. Time will tell!
Seriously this set needs to hurry up and get printed!
Any predictions how much vannifar will be on MTGO?! I have 50 tix for the playset :S
Just kind of stopping by to check out how this deck is progressing (I kind of love all combo decks). One question, is there any reason why Village Bell-Ringer isn't used here? It doesn't have Exarch's tap-down ability, but since this combo is typically going off after a chord on the opponent's end-step, tapping down a removal land seems less relevant. And Bell-Ringer can untap all your mana dorks and potentially let you cast him and chord, or chord for him and then chord for something else?
Just curious why he isn't in any lists.
Probably because Deceiver is traditional in creature combo decks like this, it's the first thing people think of. If there is a valid reason to play it over Bell-Ringer that would be interesting... since white would be easier for this colour base
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Decks - Modern Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
Well that was a fun format. See you in 2019 when they finaly unban Pod, since as an unemployed I can't afford a new deck.
(Hint there has been only one format in past two years that I've been playing.)
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I am a man of simple tastes. I like to cast green tutors and turn my men, women and non applicable sideways.
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I'd say Magus is a meta call, and now is not the time for the card to shine. Many Arclight Phoenix decks, Dredge which wants to cast Conflagrate against creature decks anyway, and so on. Magus belongs in the SB for Tron.
Yep, that makes sense. I'm currently looking for something to replace Magus in the main deck, kinda unsure about what. Maybe I'll try Reveillark or one more copy of something else, any suggestions?
Either way, the comparison between Rhythm and those two cards is also iffy, since Rhythm isn't a dedicated combo card, but makes all played creatures better while the other two cards are purely combo cards. Hence, not being able to find it via tutors is not that big of an problem in this case. You can compare it to a PW basically, on what it does.
Totally agree, I believe that Rhythm of the Wild has some potential even without the combo in this deck: it makes the whole bunch of toolbox creature safe from counters and gives them a strong boost, either by giving them haste or a counter. The only problem is that it can be a little bit heavy togheter with Chord and EE, since, as you said before, it can't be tutored and it uses slots that could be filled with more useful creatures. I'll try something, maybe I'll remove another card alongside with Magus of the Moon and try a x2 of Rhythm, but I actually don't know if two copies are worth playing.
Well that was a fun format. See you in 2019 when they finaly unban Pod, since as an unemployed I can't afford a new deck.
(Hint there has been only one format in past two years that I've been playing.)
On Magus of the Moon:
Yeah, it sucking against most aggro decks and UR Storm is a great reason to cut it. With that being said, as previously mentioned, it's decent against Tron, and it's also decent to great against RG Valakut because it kills their late-game. They need to kill it to go off fast enough (although the immediate Bolt sucks). It also can juke BGx Midrange and maybe UWR Control decks that fetch wrong, and I suspect it also makes Bant Spirits' day more awkward.
I think at this point I'm gonna test a less W-heavy version with Rhythm as well as the bant-splash-R.
One note on Bell Ringer is that in a pinch it can help cast Kiki from the hand. If you have, say, a bird, 1 red source, Vannifar, a 2-drop, and 2 other lands. or just untap your mana dorks and Vannifar at the same time.
Would you guys be interested in a Discord server for Vannifar? Think it would be great to have live conversation for much faster innovation and discussion. Could make it a general Birds/Hierarch brewing discord with dedicated space for Vannifar. (Like this post or something if you would be interested)
Edit: Turns out there already is one! Encourage you all to check it out https://discord.gg/XteZAYH
Rhythm isn't a dedicated combo card, but makes all played creatures better while the other two cards are purely combo cards. Hence, not being able to find it via tutors is not that big of an problem in this case. You can compare it to a PW basically, on what it does.
We then agree the card is cute, it makes "creatures better" like an anthem would, but we don't play anthems in these kinds of decks, and we never have in Modern. Anthems effects only go along with a synergistic feature : tribes or tokens.
Rhythm of the Wild will be better if it's part of a combo (+ Murderous Redcap + Viscera Seer = infinite damage, for example) or if there's a strong synergy (Hardened Scales ?). Enchantment-based combo decks are garbage because we can't tutor all the pieces. Knight Bantfall is another good example of a miss (Amulet Titan can Ancient Stirrings for Amulet on the other hand, you know, artifacts are much better supported in all formats). Those decks suck so much that even in a combo shell, they don't work ! So playing Rhythm for value only - and mostly for Vannifar - seems completely out of the realm of competitiveness.
Now compared to a PW, well I'd play Saheeli + Felidar everyday over Rhythm + Vannifar, because the first is a combo kill while the second is only a ramp effect. I mean, Saheeli gives haste too, and Vannifar is considered in Copycat decks... That being said, Copycat doesn't warp the format at all because PWs are as crappy to tutor as enchantments.
It may be iffy to compare enchantments because they serve different purposes, but truth is no matter what you use them for, they're all clunky in most decks, especially the more they cost. You may argue Hardened Scales, Spreading Seas, Bitterblossom and Intangible Virtue don't hurt deckbulding, and to me it's thanks to the low mana investment on top of a global synergy in the archetype.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
@headminerve, regarding Rhythm, I would even say, that it is worse if it is part of a combo, cause than you are reliant again to find it to actually win via the combo. Than again in this specific scenario it is easier with Persist creatures, cause you can grab other creatures (Melira/Vizier) to combo off. And this brings us to the question: Why even play that card if you can find all those combo elements via Chord/CoCo? Right, you do not.
The thing is, I tested a lot of things (not for this deck) where many people said: "Why you do this, it is garbage!" but in the end I wanted to know it myself (e.g. Looting in Delver decks aka Moderns Brainstorm and nowadays the remaining Tempo decks (Grixis Shadow mainly) are playing Looting). My gut feeling says: Rhythm is in theory the most consistent way to win on turn 3 while not being garbage outside of it. So, at least for me, the question is now: IS Rhythm good enough on it's own or is it better to play other cards (Silver Bullets, more Chords/Evolutions, special lands (Battlements/Minawo), Planeswalkers,...) in that slot? And I want to find it out.
Btw, enchantments have a decent "tutor" to say it this way, especially if you combine it with creatures: Commune with the Gods. Though, I would never play that card in this deck.
@the nobody's - I think it's simply "what card is good when you are not comboing". I think MOST of us are building a toolbox deck with a creature combo finish. I think this is the best way since you can't rely on pod and it's not the fastest combo in the world. As a result, deceiver, more often than not, will be better than bell ringer, specifically when you're on the back foot!
When even THE premier toolbox deck (Devoted Druid.deck) is currently trying to increase their speed it might be an indicator, that a toolbox approach with a combo finish might not cut it in this specific metagame.
On Magus of the Moon:
Yeah, it sucking against most aggro decks and UR Storm is a great reason to cut it. With that being said, as previously mentioned, it's decent against Tron, and it's also decent to great against RG Valakut because it kills their late-game. They need to kill it to go off fast enough (although the immediate Bolt sucks). It also can juke BGx Midrange and maybe UWR Control decks that fetch wrong, and I suspect it also makes Bant Spirits' day more awkward.
Lets take a look at the most common played decks currently (or rather those decks which you should expect playing against).
Moon is useless: KCI, Dredge, HS Affinity, Affinity, Burn, UR Phoenix, Mardu Pyrmancer, Hollow One
Moon is somewhat useful: UW Control, Storm, Titanshift, Counters Company
Moon is good/great: Bant Spirits, Humans, UWR Control, Gx Tron (it buys time), Grixis Death Shadow, Infect (if you can safely cast it), BGx
So it would be for me SB material at best. I would rather want MD graveyard hate instead (good against the majority of those decks).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
@Kathal - I just wanted to respond to a couple of points in your last post (constructively ofcourse)!
First on Magus of the Moon... you put it as somewhere between good and great vs Humans and Spirits, but I don't think it'll play out that way, when both decks run Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch. The various lists running around have little way to remove Hierarch. Spirits even runs a few fetches and basics, so I really don't think Moon is great there. I also think that Grixis Shadow can remove it way too easily, get under it, and potentially even ignore it (1 swamp and they have access to all their threats and removal, just losing their cantrips / stubborn denials). It's only ever going to be ok there.
However, Amulet is a deck that's doing well at the minute, and should be in the great section. Anyway, I agree it's not really MD playable at the minute, specifically since most of us are 4 colours. So not disagreeing with you, but just expanding a touch on it!
Second - if you try to make this deck "all-in" combo, I'm almost always going to ask "why not play X" instead. I can't realistically see a way of being a turn 3 combo deck consistently, because you have to have a 4-of to win, and at least 2 other set up cards (dork + haste-giving thing) and land drops. Compare that to storm that just needs a 2-drop (which they have 6-7 copies of) and usually gets there (or 2 drop plus gifts), or KCI + ramp that just needs its namesake and has stirrings to find it.
In comparison to that, we need 1 extra set-up card, and need to find a 4-of rather than a 6-of or a 4-of with tutors to find it.
Then there's the resilience of the deck. Storm has a bit because of all the cantrips, KCI is similar. Our deck uses so many slots for it's actual combo that the resilience isn't there in the same way. If you compare it to Devoted Druid (which is pretty similar in that it needs 3 cards and 3 lands for the turn 3), Druid at least avoids the GY.
I just think that focusing on the combo is likely what makes this deck just a weaker something else. That's not to say you can't make the combo more effective, but I personally think the way this will be successful is by being a combo deck that can interact and grind. We're just too inconsistent and slow to race the fastest decks in format. Finding the right cards to grind with will be the tricky part though.
Whell now comrades. All the potential cards that I come up with and find from other peoples decks and suggestions have been listed. If you got any suggestions give me holler. Next up the descriptions of the cards, why you should and shouldn't play them.
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I am a man of simple tastes. I like to cast green tutors and turn my men, women and non applicable sideways.
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
hey guys, I was on pod wave since it's beginning and now I feel this deck is driving fresh blood in my veins. I roughly read merely all posts and the decisions about the hippocampus, I have to ask, without hippocampus/zealous consripts/sun titan or other shell, what is the plan to combo off, when you have no 1 drop?
let's assume, that you have Vannifar + two drop, when you sac it for rallier, it doesn't work, unless you have scryb ranger in your GY and going for another rallier. when you sac it for exarch, then what will you sacrifice exarch for? resto will flash Vaniffar with sickness, but hippocamp could untap it, then go for zealous conscripts and so on...
Maybe i don't see something, but i think, we should be able to combo off from any drop we have at our disposal and not just from BoP or hierarch. That was the strength of pod, and we have to apply it here
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MODERN:BGRJund, RBGUDredge, LEGACY:BUReanimator, BRWGU Dredge
"Aut vincere aut mori"
Maybe I don't see something, but i think, we should be able to combo off from any drop we have at our disposal and not just from BoP or hierarch. That was the strength of pod, and we have to apply it here
Well, you can combo out of different things, in the earlier posts of this discussion there are various examples. It depends on what you have on the board, in general if you have Vannifar you should be able to combo from a wide variety of scenarios: let's say Vanny + Chord/Evolution/Renegade Rallier (to bring up from the GY something to sac)/Something to sac and bring Rallier/a 1-Drop, to mention some of them. I do agree that the other combo shell you're mentioning can be a good alternative to the main route, but, and that's just personal taste, I prefer to build a toolbox of usefull stuff centered around the combo and, somehow, possibly independent and still quite functional. I think that this deck offers a variety of approaches so vast that each one of us can build the deck according to our preferences, even though some cards must remain at the core.
Speaking of preferences, I'm wondering why the majority of the decklists I've seen include Avalanche Riders. Isn't Fulminator Mage just better? Maybe I'm missing something, but if I'm not, I just don't understand why Riders are viable or even more advisable than Fulminator.
@zyrgul_CZ - you are right, you can't combo off without hippo/conscripts/sun titan. However... there's a few things to bare in mind.
First - an activation of Pod without comboing can still be really good. For example, if you manage to upgrade a 2-drop into rallier and return voice, that can be really good vs control or agro, gumming up the board. Against people holding up bolt, you wouldn't necessarily even want to go for a combo line.
Second - the beauty of kiki-pod back in the day was that every card you could combo with was powerful by itself. That's not remotely true for Hippo, and although Conscripts is better, it's a little hit and miss depending on the match-up.
Third (and probably most importantly) - this new pod is both slower and more vunerable. As a result, building your deck focusing on combo could be troublesome. I think it's more important than ever to have a solid list that works without POD, and slot everything else in around it.
Having said that - we haven't had chance to test the cards yet, and I plan to add Hippo / Conscripts / Sun Titan at some point during my testing. We'll see where we end up!
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Anyway, I'll try Reveillark for sure, it has a lot of potential! On the other hand, cards like Hall of the Bandit Lord and Ranger of Eos + 1Drops aren't that appealing, I simply don't believe we have enough slots to include that package of combo-enablers. Tomorrow I'll post my list, I still need to do some testing
Don't sac Exarch. Sac Rallier and get Resto Angel, flickering Exarch and untapping Vannifar. Now sac Resto for Kiki Jiki and copy Exarch, pointing triggers at Kiki and creating the army.
For mana, you really should be able to go UGw and keep a stable manabase. UGWR is definitely hard to support though.
Hahaha thanks I just realized what I was doing wrong. Yeah makes sense for manabase, that sounds reasonable.
The mana base is... rough to say the least. Heck, I've been considering going just UGR, but we lose too many "board states" with that.
I've been considering dropping Hallowed Fountain and Steam Vents in the case that I eventually end up on that side of the line that Ifeel like I am shocking myself too much. It all really depends on how much aggro there is in the environment.
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
Here's my list with some detailed insight, any feedback appreciated. Lectrys gave me some great advice and his list pointed me in a much much better direction.
Yeah this is primarily a combo deck, but the combo is going to get shut down pretty often and so we should be able to hold up some amount of aggro as a plan B.
That being said, has anyone seen the deck mtggoldfish posted? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-prime-speaker-pod-modern
I like the back up combos, plus other creatures which can stretch the game out like having more Renegade Ralliers or playing Suntitan. I like the way he has structured it, if the card is a key combo piece then it's at least a 2 of, that way you have a backup if cards get removed / stuck in hand / etc.
Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
1. Evo is obviously quicker. However, I feel like that kicks in much more in the sideboard games, where you can go get very specific bullets and lock people out much quicker (eidolon vs storm for example).
2. Chord gives pod haste. Again, I realise this has already been said, but chording for 4 on opps end step gives the opponent much less time to react. How relevant that'll be though, I'm not sure. Chording for 4 is 7 mana, so realistically isn't happening until your own turn 4 at the earliest, which could be the opponents turn 5 end step. Against anything remotely linear, you're already dead. Against anything controlling, a lot of their interaction comes at instant speed anyway, so the end step trick hardly matters.
I think we'll find Evo the better route. The lists I'm seeing at the moment are already pretty well placed vs midrange/control and should fair well against agro too (depending on your finks count). However, the linear decks are going to be faster than us and hard to interact with using the mainboard. A T2 scooze isn't going to do much against dredge, as an example, and it'll do even less vs KCI. As a result, getting to your SB bombs quicker is going to matter, so Evo is going to pull its weight.
Having said all of that, I just like chord more. Witness lines with Chord were always cool, and instant speed tricks are fun too.
Just a few more points. First @Kathal - you said "so I rate Shalai way higher than Spellskite". The difference on the curve is an important fact to remember. Being able to go T1 BOP into T2 Spellskite means your T3 Vannifar is much more likely to get the job done. It's not a wincon, at all, but flashing in a spellskite off a chord is much more realistic than a Shalai too. Shalai fills a different role, which is a mana sink. But I'm just not sure at this stage if we need it. I will be running a township and a couple of scooze, as well as chords. They're all really good at eating mana. Also, we're pretty heavy on 4-drops for combo pieces (3 resto and 4 Vannifar as stock at this point), so I don't want to be too heavy there.
On Sun Titan + Hippo + Conscripts being in the deck. I agree Hippo is pretty bad, but I actually think its comparable to seedcradle witch. Ranger of Eos is unexciting to say the least (grab witch + hierarch), and cradle only does a small bump for a chunk of mana. Hippo can at least create some combat tricks, and a flash 3/3 is ok against UWx etc. As far as Sun Titan being too high on the curve, its not a tonne different to a 3rd chord or a Shalai that needs a load of mana to be great. I think it's passable, but i'm also prepared for dropping hippo/titan if it doesnt work out.
On the manabase - Ive only got 1 sacred foundry and the rest of my shocks make green. This could be wrong, but having Turn 1 Green is important. I've added a single fire-lit thicket, plains, gavony township and hall of the bandit lord which all don't cast BOP, so I'm on 18 green sources. Again, ready to switch it up when it's wrong, but I like casting kiki, and casting BOPs.
@Soot - the list on MTGGoldfish is super greedy. It basically takes the curve of the "pre-ban" Kiki-pod decks, then drops 2 lands for 2 chords. I like some of whats going on in that list, but the curve is a real mess (bare in mind pod now costs 4 not 3 too). It shows off hte combos but doesn't show you a good list imo.
Yeah, I guess that's what makes Chord better than Evolution most of the time. Anyway, here's the decklist I'm currently testing:
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Deputy of Detention
2 Deceiver Exarch
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
3 Prime Speaker Vannifar
2 Restoration Angel
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Eldritch Evolution
3 Chord of Calling
//Lands
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Gavony Township
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Domri, Chaos Bringer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thragtusk
The main concerns, at the moment, are:
On the other hand, the things I prefer the most:
What do you think? Let me know your opinions!
I'd say Magus is a meta call, and now is not the time for the card to shine. Many Arclight Phoenix decks, Dredge which wants to cast Conflagrate against creature decks anyway, and so on. Magus belongs in the SB for Tron.
Second reason is that this card is cute in a deck that wants to combo every game in the current meta. Cut the cute.
Enchantments are real bad in combo decks that can't find them consistently. I realized it the hard way with Intruder Alarm, a broken card in a format that don't support enchantment combos. People are so desperate they play Drift of Phantasms, what a joke ! Even Jeskai Ascendancy doesn't do anything in the format, while it was the most broken deck during the Treasure Cruise Era. Once again, cut the cute.
The main problem I see is the combo chain itself makes you play cute cards already, so you guys better not add more.
The primary question should be: Against what deck is Magus even good? Against most unfair decks it is garbage (only great vs Amulet Titan), and against other decks it is mostly decent (Tron and BGx, cause against UW it does nothing).
Hence, I would not play it at all atm, maybe in the SB, but not even then I'm sure about it.
First and foremost, Intruder Alarm combo decks are kinda garbage, cause everything they can do (ideally) can be done by other combo decks better and more consistently.
And also the notion of Ascendancy, the deck is "garbage" cause it abused two to three banned cards, Probe, TC and DTT (for the Jeskai version). The problem was not finding Ascendancy (and isn't nowadays either) but the chain comboing is now way harder to do than with the old version. It also didn't help, that as soon as TC and DTT got banned nearly all players abandoned the deck (same thing which happened to Amulet Titan, which is still a good deck, just not busted anymore).
Either way, the comparison between Rhythm and those two cards is also iffy, since Rhythm isn't a dedicated combo card, but makes all played creatures better while the other two cards are purely combo cards. Hence, not being able to find it via tutors is not that big of an problem in this case. You can compare it to a PW basically, on what it does.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Just curious why he isn't in any lists.
Rhythm looks interesting to me, but I'd not play more than 1. Its bad in multiples, and isn't even good in every match-up we play. On the flip side, Domri, Chaos Bringer is just at hte wrong point of the curve. It's a decent card for sure, but I already feel like I have too many 4 drops. Time will tell!
Seriously this set needs to hurry up and get printed!
Any predictions how much vannifar will be on MTGO?! I have 50 tix for the playset :S
Probably because Deceiver is traditional in creature combo decks like this, it's the first thing people think of. If there is a valid reason to play it over Bell-Ringer that would be interesting... since white would be easier for this colour base
Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
Yep, that makes sense. I'm currently looking for something to replace Magus in the main deck, kinda unsure about what. Maybe I'll try Reveillark or one more copy of something else, any suggestions?
Totally agree, I believe that Rhythm of the Wild has some potential even without the combo in this deck: it makes the whole bunch of toolbox creature safe from counters and gives them a strong boost, either by giving them haste or a counter. The only problem is that it can be a little bit heavy togheter with Chord and EE, since, as you said before, it can't be tutored and it uses slots that could be filled with more useful creatures. I'll try something, maybe I'll remove another card alongside with Magus of the Moon and try a x2 of Rhythm, but I actually don't know if two copies are worth playing.
You have Scry 4 (years).
Yeah, it sucking against most aggro decks and UR Storm is a great reason to cut it. With that being said, as previously mentioned, it's decent against Tron, and it's also decent to great against RG Valakut because it kills their late-game. They need to kill it to go off fast enough (although the immediate Bolt sucks). It also can juke BGx Midrange and maybe UWR Control decks that fetch wrong, and I suspect it also makes Bant Spirits' day more awkward.
One note on Bell Ringer is that in a pinch it can help cast Kiki from the hand. If you have, say, a bird, 1 red source, Vannifar, a 2-drop, and 2 other lands. or just untap your mana dorks and Vannifar at the same time.
Edit: Turns out there already is one! Encourage you all to check it out https://discord.gg/XteZAYH
We then agree the card is cute, it makes "creatures better" like an anthem would, but we don't play anthems in these kinds of decks, and we never have in Modern. Anthems effects only go along with a synergistic feature : tribes or tokens.
Rhythm of the Wild will be better if it's part of a combo (+ Murderous Redcap + Viscera Seer = infinite damage, for example) or if there's a strong synergy (Hardened Scales ?). Enchantment-based combo decks are garbage because we can't tutor all the pieces. Knight Bantfall is another good example of a miss (Amulet Titan can Ancient Stirrings for Amulet on the other hand, you know, artifacts are much better supported in all formats). Those decks suck so much that even in a combo shell, they don't work ! So playing Rhythm for value only - and mostly for Vannifar - seems completely out of the realm of competitiveness.
Now compared to a PW, well I'd play Saheeli + Felidar everyday over Rhythm + Vannifar, because the first is a combo kill while the second is only a ramp effect. I mean, Saheeli gives haste too, and Vannifar is considered in Copycat decks... That being said, Copycat doesn't warp the format at all because PWs are as crappy to tutor as enchantments.
It may be iffy to compare enchantments because they serve different purposes, but truth is no matter what you use them for, they're all clunky in most decks, especially the more they cost. You may argue Hardened Scales, Spreading Seas, Bitterblossom and Intangible Virtue don't hurt deckbulding, and to me it's thanks to the low mana investment on top of a global synergy in the archetype.
The thing is, I tested a lot of things (not for this deck) where many people said: "Why you do this, it is garbage!" but in the end I wanted to know it myself (e.g. Looting in Delver decks aka Moderns Brainstorm and nowadays the remaining Tempo decks (Grixis Shadow mainly) are playing Looting). My gut feeling says: Rhythm is in theory the most consistent way to win on turn 3 while not being garbage outside of it. So, at least for me, the question is now: IS Rhythm good enough on it's own or is it better to play other cards (Silver Bullets, more Chords/Evolutions, special lands (Battlements/Minawo), Planeswalkers,...) in that slot? And I want to find it out.
Btw, enchantments have a decent "tutor" to say it this way, especially if you combine it with creatures: Commune with the Gods. Though, I would never play that card in this deck.
When even THE premier toolbox deck (Devoted Druid.deck) is currently trying to increase their speed it might be an indicator, that a toolbox approach with a combo finish might not cut it in this specific metagame.
Lets take a look at the most common played decks currently (or rather those decks which you should expect playing against).
Moon is useless: KCI, Dredge, HS Affinity, Affinity, Burn, UR Phoenix, Mardu Pyrmancer, Hollow One
Moon is somewhat useful: UW Control, Storm, Titanshift, Counters Company
Moon is good/great: Bant Spirits, Humans, UWR Control, Gx Tron (it buys time), Grixis Death Shadow, Infect (if you can safely cast it), BGx
So it would be for me SB material at best. I would rather want MD graveyard hate instead (good against the majority of those decks).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
First on Magus of the Moon... you put it as somewhere between good and great vs Humans and Spirits, but I don't think it'll play out that way, when both decks run Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch. The various lists running around have little way to remove Hierarch. Spirits even runs a few fetches and basics, so I really don't think Moon is great there. I also think that Grixis Shadow can remove it way too easily, get under it, and potentially even ignore it (1 swamp and they have access to all their threats and removal, just losing their cantrips / stubborn denials). It's only ever going to be ok there.
However, Amulet is a deck that's doing well at the minute, and should be in the great section. Anyway, I agree it's not really MD playable at the minute, specifically since most of us are 4 colours. So not disagreeing with you, but just expanding a touch on it!
Second - if you try to make this deck "all-in" combo, I'm almost always going to ask "why not play X" instead. I can't realistically see a way of being a turn 3 combo deck consistently, because you have to have a 4-of to win, and at least 2 other set up cards (dork + haste-giving thing) and land drops. Compare that to storm that just needs a 2-drop (which they have 6-7 copies of) and usually gets there (or 2 drop plus gifts), or KCI + ramp that just needs its namesake and has stirrings to find it.
In comparison to that, we need 1 extra set-up card, and need to find a 4-of rather than a 6-of or a 4-of with tutors to find it.
Then there's the resilience of the deck. Storm has a bit because of all the cantrips, KCI is similar. Our deck uses so many slots for it's actual combo that the resilience isn't there in the same way. If you compare it to Devoted Druid (which is pretty similar in that it needs 3 cards and 3 lands for the turn 3), Druid at least avoids the GY.
I just think that focusing on the combo is likely what makes this deck just a weaker something else. That's not to say you can't make the combo more effective, but I personally think the way this will be successful is by being a combo deck that can interact and grind. We're just too inconsistent and slow to race the fastest decks in format. Finding the right cards to grind with will be the tricky part though.
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
let's assume, that you have Vannifar + two drop, when you sac it for rallier, it doesn't work, unless you have scryb ranger in your GY and going for another rallier. when you sac it for exarch, then what will you sacrifice exarch for? resto will flash Vaniffar with sickness, but hippocamp could untap it, then go for zealous conscripts and so on...
Maybe i don't see something, but i think, we should be able to combo off from any drop we have at our disposal and not just from BoP or hierarch. That was the strength of pod, and we have to apply it here
"Aut vincere aut mori"
Well, you can combo out of different things, in the earlier posts of this discussion there are various examples. It depends on what you have on the board, in general if you have Vannifar you should be able to combo from a wide variety of scenarios: let's say Vanny + Chord/Evolution/Renegade Rallier (to bring up from the GY something to sac)/Something to sac and bring Rallier/a 1-Drop, to mention some of them. I do agree that the other combo shell you're mentioning can be a good alternative to the main route, but, and that's just personal taste, I prefer to build a toolbox of usefull stuff centered around the combo and, somehow, possibly independent and still quite functional. I think that this deck offers a variety of approaches so vast that each one of us can build the deck according to our preferences, even though some cards must remain at the core.
Speaking of preferences, I'm wondering why the majority of the decklists I've seen include Avalanche Riders. Isn't Fulminator Mage just better? Maybe I'm missing something, but if I'm not, I just don't understand why Riders are viable or even more advisable than Fulminator.
First - an activation of Pod without comboing can still be really good. For example, if you manage to upgrade a 2-drop into rallier and return voice, that can be really good vs control or agro, gumming up the board. Against people holding up bolt, you wouldn't necessarily even want to go for a combo line.
Second - the beauty of kiki-pod back in the day was that every card you could combo with was powerful by itself. That's not remotely true for Hippo, and although Conscripts is better, it's a little hit and miss depending on the match-up.
Third (and probably most importantly) - this new pod is both slower and more vunerable. As a result, building your deck focusing on combo could be troublesome. I think it's more important than ever to have a solid list that works without POD, and slot everything else in around it.
Having said that - we haven't had chance to test the cards yet, and I plan to add Hippo / Conscripts / Sun Titan at some point during my testing. We'll see where we end up!