Thanks for the great response to Aetherbringer. I'd be interested in testing out Giver of Runes more. Big thing with the card is finding 3-4 slots. I definitely like playing the set rather than 1 or 2 because it's fairly bad off the top and isn't a card you'll be tutoring too often (although you have more incentive without Ezuri). Looks like you accomplished that by shaving Duskwatch, no 9th dork, and cutting Dryad Arbor. I'll have to consider going to 1 to 2 Duskwatch in the future, but I do find myself getting scrappy wins with it often. I'm not huge on cutting Arbor personally, but if you'd like to forego it, I'd encourage you to play some fastlands over 2-3 fetches.
I like your list for a removal heavy metagame for sure. Similar to BFT out of the side, T1 Stepmom, T2 Druid with Lunge in hand is a fantastic nut draw. You'll have to let us know what you think of your list.
Welcome back!
I have a feeling I'm going to miss the Dryad Arbor. It enhances the WHOOPS I WIN potential. But naturally drawing Arbor sucks, or even worse its in your opener, both of which have happened to me more than a few times. And of course it just sucks in my removal heavy local meta.
Duskwatch I don't expect to miss much. I've played him a lot in Company shells and he's always been a little awkward on multiple axes. I expect him to be much worse here. So unless the card disadvantage from Neoform and Eldritch Evolution are relevant very often, I'm not afraid of trimming him to 1.
List changes from my last post:
-2 Misty Rainforest
+1 Razorverge Thicket
+1 Botanical Sanctum
-2 SB Heroic Intervention
-2 SB Reflector Mage
+1 SB Selfless Spirit
+1 SB Scavenging Ooze
+1 SB Eidolon of Rhetoric
+1 SB Deputy of Detention
I already trimmed some fetches for some fastlands. Glad to hear you concur with that.
I couldn't find my Heroic Interventions and Reflector Mage is just an Unsummon after TitI flips, which doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
Selfless Spirit does a decent Heroic Intervention impression. Nice synergy with Postmortem Lunge + Teferi!
Scooze is very experimental. I suppose anything could be there but Scooze is SO STRONG against so many decks that it seems like a good use of a spot.
Eidolon of Rhetoric is not great for us, but its even worse for TitI decks.
Deputy of Detention is a catch-all.
I'm excited to take this deck for a spin at FNM. I expect to do much better than when I tried this deck sans Stepmom.
After testing the list above a little bit, it seems to me like splashing both blue and black is worth it. The cost of running two extra shocks is minimal. Thoughtseize in the sideboard helps a lot against other linear decks and helps you dodge boardwipes in the grindier matches. Plague engineer hasn't been that usefull so far, but I can imagine this card doing work against Infect, which I suspect will be played a lot.
After testing the list above a little bit, it seems to me like splashing both blue and black is worth it. The cost of running two extra shocks is minimal. Thoughtseize in the sideboard helps a lot against other linear decks and helps you dodge boardwipes in the grindier matches. Plague engineer hasn't been that usefull so far, but I can imagine this card doing work against Infect, which I suspect will be played a lot.
I can understand the value of Thoughtseize against boardwipes, but how does it help against linear decks? There are few decks that are faster than us: wouldn't our time and resources be better spent comboing? IMO, sideboard options against specific super-high-speed matchups should be more speed or deck-specific hate cards.
Contrast with this list: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30876&iddeck=263025
This is definitely slower than us, but much much more fair. Thoughtseize in the SB looks super strong there and clearly was worthwhile given that she made Top 8 in the event.
Now, to address the Thoughseize vs board wipes: we're usually hoping to go under boardwipes. However, we have to admit that said plan is not reliable. So Thoughseize DEFINITELY has value here. However, the mana base is already a little strained if you want to do game winning things on turns 2 and 3. If you're looking past the 4th turn regularly, you might want to consider a different version of Druid combo (like the link I posted above, which definitely looks rad).
As far as this shell dealing with sweepers: has anyone considered Nissa, Steward of Elements? We cast her for 2 (X=0) and her 0 ability has 40 possible hits in the deck. However, said hits are a little low in individual value.
Thanks for the great feedback!
A couple more thoughts/questions:
Should we still be playing Walking Ballista or other wincons when Ezuri almost always is just as effective and works far better with the ~11 tutors that put something onto the battlefield? I also don't see how giving Rhonas multiple creatures the ability to attack for infinite is very useful, and the possibility of a backup beatdown plan if your druids are removed seems pretty marginal to me in the context of Modern.
In the same vein, Duskwatch Recruiter also seems pretty useless. Ezuri fills the role of the battlefield-tutorable creature that wins the game now and doesn't require Ballista as an actual kill condition. Not working with Neoform also shouldn't be a big concern as you can just sac the Vizier of Remedies to get it out.
Going back to one of @AcademyRuins' previous lists, is Teferi, Time Raveler really better than having more tutors (likely Eladamri's Calls, which personally I have found a great supplement to the current suite as they allow t3 Druid and also dodge Cage)? I have not tested w/ him and are curious of yall's opinions on him.
In general, I feel like we should basically refine the deck to combo backup pieces (Greaves, Stepmom, Lunge, EWit), tutors (Neoform, Evolution, Finale, Call), obviously the actual combo cards, and a wincon. Other interactive cards and bullets just take away from the t3-t4 potential of this deck, which I feel like with Stepmom is the best place for this deck to be in the Modern environment.
Thanks for the great feedback!
A couple more thoughts/questions:
Should we still be playing Walking Ballista or other wincons when Ezuri almost always is just as effective and works far better with the ~11 tutors that put something onto the battlefield? I also don't see how giving Rhonas multiple creatures the ability to attack for infinite is very useful, and the possibility of a backup beatdown plan if your druids are removed seems pretty marginal to me in the context of Modern.
In the same vein, Duskwatch Recruiter also seems pretty useless. Ezuri fills the role of the battlefield-tutorable creature that wins the game now and doesn't require Ballista as an actual kill condition. Not working with Neoform also shouldn't be a big concern as you can just sac the Vizier of Remedies to get it out.
Going back to one of @AcademyRuins' previous lists, is Teferi, Time Raveler really better than having more tutors (likely Eladamri's Calls, which personally I have found a great supplement to the current suite as they allow t3 Druid and also dodge Cage)? I have not tested w/ him and are curious of yall's opinions on him.
In general, I feel like we should basically refine the deck to combo backup pieces (Greaves, Stepmom, Lunge, EWit), tutors (Neoform, Evolution, Finale, Call), obviously the actual combo cards, and a wincon. Other interactive cards and bullets just take away from the t3-t4 potential of this deck, which I feel like with Stepmom is the best place for this deck to be in the Modern environment.
Ballista beats Bridge. If you're going to play one win con, I'd advise Ballista for that reason.
I'd encourage you to explore a decklist that suits your liking. There is endless depth to the Druid Vizier shell, to the point that differences in play style and plan preference can result in wildly different lists. If you think cards like Rhonas, Duskwatch, and Teferi are suboptimal, play with 4 to see them often, or play with 0 to see how much you miss them.
As for thoughts on Teferi, I talk a bit about it here.
Ballista beats Bridge. If you're going to play one win con, I'd advise Ballista for that reason. here.
Can't you just attack with the 0-powered Druid and then untap it before damage to pump it infinitely large? Or are we more concerned that we are sacrificing Vizier to tutor out Ezuri in the first place?
This should be a permanent link to the Druid discord. There's no channel for this particular version of Druid Combo but we can change that. Let me know if anyone has trouble with it: https://discord.gg/C7WdRPr
Ballista beats Bridge. If you're going to play one win con, I'd advise Ballista for that reason. here.
Can't you just attack with the 0-powered Druid and then untap it before damage to pump it infinitely large? Or are we more concerned that we are sacrificing Vizier to tutor out Ezuri in the first place?
Whoops, you're right. I suppose there are things like Worship to consider, or the Ad Naus matchup. Remembering that you can attack through bridge, perhaps Ezuri/Rhonas could be okay to play as your only win con.
This should be a permanent link to the Druid discord. There's no channel for this particular version of Druid Combo but we can change that. Let me know if anyone has trouble with it: https://discord.gg/C7WdRPr
I'd be happy to link to the Discord in the primer.
Ballista beats Bridge. If you're going to play one win con, I'd advise Ballista for that reason. here.
Can't you just attack with the 0-powered Druid and then untap it before damage to pump it infinitely large? Or are we more concerned that we are sacrificing Vizier to tutor out Ezuri in the first place?
Whoops, you're right. I suppose there are things like Worship to consider, or the Ad Naus matchup. Remembering that you can attack through bridge, perhaps Ezuri/Rhonas could be okay to play as your only win con.
Maybe we could play a ballista in the sideboard to beat those kinds of things? Or are those effects still too marginal to warrant a sideboard slot.
Also, here is my nonbudget list if anyone has any suggestions. The main things I've been thinking about are: 3-4th Neoform, 4th Finale of Devastation, 2nd Teferi, Time Raveler, 8th Mana Dork and 2nd Eternal Witnessmaindeck. (pretty much what mix of these I want)
@AcademyRuins: Due to the diversity of midrange strategies, I'm looking for answers besides Chameleon Colossus, etc. Have you found any good hate?
Congratulations on the win mirrislegend! Exciting for you I'm sure. You could post your tourney report to /r/ModernMagic and /r/modernspikes
The problem with midrange is that the combination of discard and removal makes it the most difficult archetype to combo against. On top of that, they have more card advantage and better raw card quality, so it's hard to try and grind them out. And lastly, quick clocks like Goyf and Scooze mean you have to draw removal or somehow race them.
Pro black creatures work because it's a way to play fair that simply cheeses midrange instead of playing their grindy two-for-one game. I'm guessing Mirran Crusader or Mystic Enforcer aren't what you're looking for :o) The advantage with those two over Colossus against BG is that they better deal with a board of opposing green beaters. Beyond pro black creatures, with 4 Tef already in the 75 the best suggestion I have are walkers like Gideon AoZ. You could try going super deep with other cheese plans like Asceticism which would allow you to chump, regen until you assemble the combo. But it goes without saying that 5 mana is a lot. I tried Tireless Tracker, which was okay, but it underperformed most of the time. It's not hard to race the clues or the body, and they can easily kill it within a turn to limit you to one or two clues drawn.
By the way, I've been liking Giver after recognizing that I want more protection effects than 4 Lunge. Presently, I am cutting the extra dork, 3rd Neoform, and 2nd main deck Tef for 3 Giver. I moved the Tef to the board, cutting the 3rd BFT.
The problem with midrange is that the combination of discard and removal makes it the most difficult archetype to combo against. On top of that, they have more card advantage and better raw card quality, so it's hard to try and grind them out. And lastly, quick clocks like Goyf and Scooze mean you have to draw removal or somehow race them.
Pro black creatures work because it's a way to play fair that simply cheeses midrange instead of playing their grindy two-for-one game. I'm guessing Mirran Crusader or Mystic Enforcer aren't what you're looking for :o) The advantage with those two over Colossus against BG is that they better deal with a board of opposing green beaters. Beyond pro black creatures, with 4 Tef already in the 75 the best suggestion I have are walkers like Gideon AoZ. You could try going super deep with other cheese plans like Asceticism which would allow you to chump, regen until you assemble the combo. But it goes without saying that 5 mana is a lot. I tried Tireless Tracker, which was okay, but it underperformed most of the time. It's not hard to race the clues or the body, and they can easily kill it within a turn to limit you to one or two clues drawn.
I think you missed the point I was making: the pro-black dudes plan may beat BGx, but it does NOT beat all the other decks that disrupt on multiple axes and apply pressure, such as BW Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer, and Esper Death's Shadow.
So I'm looking for alternatives. I suppose we could play fair with Lil Teferi and Gideon AoZ. But Giver of Runes may change everything. Giver backed up by Greaves, Shalai, Eternal Witness, and maybe some sort of removal should handle ANY midrange deck. But the MD has few slots to cut in general and the SB obviously does not have that kind of space. I'd really like to hear your experiences with Giver in relation to midrange opponents.
By the way, I've been liking Giver after recognizing that I want more protection effects than 4 Lunge. Presently, I am cutting the extra dork, 3rd Neoform, and 2nd main deck Tef for 3 Giver. I moved the Tef to the board, cutting the 3rd BFT.
Try to fit the 4th Giver, so you can see it often so you can evaluate the card properly. It is good in so many circumstances and you need to experience that.
...all the other decks that disrupt on multiple axes and apply pressure, such as BW Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer, and Esper Death's Shadow.
So I'm looking for alternatives.
Hm, so you'd like cards that are good against midrange strategies that could Path a Colossus? Sword of Light and Shadow , Dusk // Dawn, or Hexdrinker might be worth trying out. Ranger (Captain) of Eos are two to consider if you try a Hexdrinker or two, getting Ballista is strong with them too.
Also, the Discord channels for Druid combo got some reorganizing. All-in shells, like this deck, are now separate from Chalice shells. Things should be clearer now.
Also, the Discord channels for Druid combo got some reorganizing. All-in shells, like this deck, are now separate from Chalice shells. Things should be clearer now.
One other card I remembered recently is Intrepid Hero. Obviously has its fair share of problems, but large creatures are often the biggest problem in some midrange matchups and realistically all our options for midrange beyond pro-black creatures aren't great.
Anyone tested Veil of Summer yet? Reid Duke's article on it gives me high hopes. It's already $2 each! I hope to be taking it for a spin at FNM.
How do you like Veil compared to Teferi, Time Raveler? Or are you playing Veils beyond your 4th TTR? I'm not sure counters and black removal are personally what I'm most worried about presently out of matchups like UW and Jund, moreso spot removal, planeswalkers, and sweepers. You did mention you have a bunch of fair decks in your meta, so I'm interested to hear what your experience has been like.
I've been changing up my list slightly. I've added the 4th Giver and Ranger-Captain of Eos along with couple Razorverge Thickets to help cast them. I made room by cutting the 3rd Duskwatch and Ezuri, and for lands I took out the 3rd Forest and 10th fetch. If I'm finding the mana a little greedy on 2 Forests, I'll trim the 9th fetch for a 3rd Forest. Overall, I definitely have liked Giver more and more as MH1 has shifted Modern into a slower, more fair place thanks to W&6 and Force of Negation mostly. Ranger-Captain is a nice option over Ezuri to help in fair matchups. It's not as good at protecting Druid, but I've liked the ability to two-for-one. Double white is definitely a problem, but I just need to get some reps in with it to really evaluate that cost.
I had a nice FNM beating UW Control, E Tron, losing to Jund, and beating Phoenix. My G1 against Jund was pretty funny where on the play I T1 Noble, it gets Pushed, T2 Druid, and my opponent T2 plays Hexdrinker and casts TS seeing this hand: Neoform, E Wit, Postmortem Lunge. They take E Witness and I top a 2nd Lunge to win with a neat sequence of Lunge Noble, Neoform it into Vizier for infy mana, Lunge Witness to bring back Neoform and Neoform Vizier into Ezuri FTW.
I'm hope to stream at least a couple leagues this week with the list below at twitch.tv/chillerpillar
By the way, why do you play more than one Duskwatch? You only need one. That extra slot could be a second Lil Teferi in the MD.
My meta is absolutely polluted with UW and Bx. So even without having concrete data on Veil, I'll be jamming it hard. Post board I'll be on 4x Lil Tefer and 4x Veil. The 4x Giver is obvious. I think I keep all 4 Lunge in, post board despite the GY hate, just because it increases the number of win routes.
Playing 7x cards that 2-for-1 me, in a meta of removal and discard and counterspells is not viable. I'm trying some brews while I figure out where I want to go with the deck. I'm certain 4x MD Giver and 3-4x SB Veil will be in any version I build. Once I have anything worth discussing, I'll report back.
By the way, why do you play more than one Duskwatch? You only need one. That extra slot could be a second Lil Teferi in the MD.
My meta is absolutely polluted with UW and Bx. So even without having concrete data on Veil, I'll be jamming it hard. Post board I'll be on 4x Lil Tefer and 4x Veil. The 4x Giver is obvious. I think I keep all 4 Lunge in, post board despite the GY hate, just because it increases the number of win routes.
Playing 7x cards that 2-for-1 me, in a meta of removal and discard and counterspells is not viable. I'm trying some brews while I figure out where I want to go with the deck. I'm certain 4x MD Giver and 3-4x SB Veil will be in any version I build. Once I have anything worth discussing, I'll report back.
I suppose I just like Duskwatch to help in fair matchups, and don't mind more than one. Some way to help beat down when needed is nice, usually it's how I win the fair way when I get Surgical'd or whatever. I have been considering other options for the slot, not sure what I want to do yet.
I do like testing by just playing a bunch and seeing what you think in practice. I'd think you could try a list that plays more MD Tef with 4x Finale and 4x Eladamri's Call for tutors. I have experimented with slower lists like that for more fair metagames. Good luck brewing
It's designed to retain as much as possible of that unfair, super fast power of the original neoform+eldritch shells, while surviving in a super fair (lots of removal and interaction) environment.
I can't find my 4th Postmortem Lunge and my Shapers' Sanctuarys, so I'm substituting 1x Ranger-Captain of Eos MD and 2x Vesperlark in the SB. At first I was really reticent to make any deviations from the original plan, but I think these will work out really well as they play very nicely with Lil Teferi. We'll see how it goes tonight!
I can't find my 4th Postmortem Lunge and my Shapers' Sanctuarys, so I'm substituting 1x Ranger-Captain of Eos MD and 2x Vesperlark in the SB. At first I was really reticent to make any deviations from the original plan, but I think these will work out really well as they play very nicely with Lil Teferi. We'll see how it goes tonight!
I think you will want MD Ranger regardless with Neoform in your deck. Otherwise you can't win from Druid + Vizier + Neoform Overall I think your list seems fine to me. Some may find the splits of tutors strange, but I definitely get it. I'll be interested to hear how Vesperlark and Veil of Summer have worked for you out of the SB.
Long story short, midrange hell is midrange hell. There are a limited number of cards that the opponent needs to answer, so it is easy for the opponent to have sufficient answers. I'm going to be trying something drastically different for now. If the meta gets really fast again, such that creature removal is low, I'd try this again (it thrived in the original Hogaak meta). Otherwise, I'll be on a Druid combo that has card advantage built in.
I've updated the primer and post title for the big changes that have come with WAR and MH1. No one seems to agree on the name for now, but I'll be happy to change the post title as needed
Congrats to Laurens Van der Beek on their 10th place finish last weekend. They decided to play a red splash for maindeck Magus of the Moon and also they played a black splash for some sideboard bullets. Veil of Summer is proving to be a high impact card for our deck, allowing us to easier stay on the combo plan in fair matchups.
Long story short, midrange hell is midrange hell. There are a limited number of cards that the opponent needs to answer, so it is easy for the opponent to have sufficient answers. I'm going to be trying something drastically different for now. If the meta gets really fast again, such that creature removal is low, I'd try this again (it thrived in the original Hogaak meta). Otherwise, I'll be on a Druid combo that has card advantage built in.
Whew am I there with you. I have moved off of Neoform for now. I still like 4 Evos but I'm seeing a whole bunch of UW, Jund, and DS on MTGO and for me locally. I'm on a fairly typical maindeck presently, still deciding between a blue or black splash for now.
You might like this version of the deck that's 5-0'd a couple of times. It's better equipped to win game one against fair strategies.
I have a feeling I'm going to miss the Dryad Arbor. It enhances the WHOOPS I WIN potential. But naturally drawing Arbor sucks, or even worse its in your opener, both of which have happened to me more than a few times. And of course it just sucks in my removal heavy local meta.
Duskwatch I don't expect to miss much. I've played him a lot in Company shells and he's always been a little awkward on multiple axes. I expect him to be much worse here. So unless the card disadvantage from Neoform and Eldritch Evolution are relevant very often, I'm not afraid of trimming him to 1.
List changes from my last post:
-2 Misty Rainforest
+1 Razorverge Thicket
+1 Botanical Sanctum
-2 SB Heroic Intervention
-2 SB Reflector Mage
+1 SB Selfless Spirit
+1 SB Scavenging Ooze
+1 SB Eidolon of Rhetoric
+1 SB Deputy of Detention
I already trimmed some fetches for some fastlands. Glad to hear you concur with that.
I couldn't find my Heroic Interventions and Reflector Mage is just an Unsummon after TitI flips, which doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
Selfless Spirit does a decent Heroic Intervention impression. Nice synergy with Postmortem Lunge + Teferi!
Scooze is very experimental. I suppose anything could be there but Scooze is SO STRONG against so many decks that it seems like a good use of a spot.
Eidolon of Rhetoric is not great for us, but its even worse for TitI decks.
Deputy of Detention is a catch-all.
I'm excited to take this deck for a spin at FNM. I expect to do much better than when I tried this deck sans Stepmom.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Contrast with this list:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30876&iddeck=263025
This is definitely slower than us, but much much more fair. Thoughtseize in the SB looks super strong there and clearly was worthwhile given that she made Top 8 in the event.
Now, to address the Thoughseize vs board wipes: we're usually hoping to go under boardwipes. However, we have to admit that said plan is not reliable. So Thoughseize DEFINITELY has value here. However, the mana base is already a little strained if you want to do game winning things on turns 2 and 3. If you're looking past the 4th turn regularly, you might want to consider a different version of Druid combo (like the link I posted above, which definitely looks rad).
As far as this shell dealing with sweepers: has anyone considered Nissa, Steward of Elements? We cast her for 2 (X=0) and her 0 ability has 40 possible hits in the deck. However, said hits are a little low in individual value.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
A couple more thoughts/questions:
Should we still be playing Walking Ballista or other wincons when Ezuri almost always is just as effective and works far better with the ~11 tutors that put something onto the battlefield? I also don't see how giving Rhonas multiple creatures the ability to attack for infinite is very useful, and the possibility of a backup beatdown plan if your druids are removed seems pretty marginal to me in the context of Modern.
In the same vein, Duskwatch Recruiter also seems pretty useless. Ezuri fills the role of the battlefield-tutorable creature that wins the game now and doesn't require Ballista as an actual kill condition. Not working with Neoform also shouldn't be a big concern as you can just sac the Vizier of Remedies to get it out.
Going back to one of @AcademyRuins' previous lists, is Teferi, Time Raveler really better than having more tutors (likely Eladamri's Calls, which personally I have found a great supplement to the current suite as they allow t3 Druid and also dodge Cage)? I have not tested w/ him and are curious of yall's opinions on him.
In general, I feel like we should basically refine the deck to combo backup pieces (Greaves, Stepmom, Lunge, EWit), tutors (Neoform, Evolution, Finale, Call), obviously the actual combo cards, and a wincon. Other interactive cards and bullets just take away from the t3-t4 potential of this deck, which I feel like with Stepmom is the best place for this deck to be in the Modern environment.
I'd encourage you to explore a decklist that suits your liking. There is endless depth to the Druid Vizier shell, to the point that differences in play style and plan preference can result in wildly different lists. If you think cards like Rhonas, Duskwatch, and Teferi are suboptimal, play with 4 to see them often, or play with 0 to see how much you miss them.
As for thoughts on Teferi, I talk a bit about it here.
Can't you just attack with the 0-powered Druid and then untap it before damage to pump it infinitely large? Or are we more concerned that we are sacrificing Vizier to tutor out Ezuri in the first place?
https://discord.gg/C7WdRPr
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Maybe we could play a ballista in the sideboard to beat those kinds of things? Or are those effects still too marginal to warrant a sideboard slot.
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Waterlogged Grove
Nonlands
3 Eladamri's Call
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Devoted Druid
1 Eternal Witness
4 Giver of Runes
4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Finale of Devastation
2 Neoform
3 Postmortem Lunge
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Chameleon Colossus
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-denUciIxx59UgiTb2FG-RSGP9KfUnon3F2FfUPzW7I/edit?usp=drivesdk
@AcademyRuins: Due to the diversity of midrange strategies, I'm looking for answers besides Chameleon Colossus, etc. Have you found any good hate?
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
The problem with midrange is that the combination of discard and removal makes it the most difficult archetype to combo against. On top of that, they have more card advantage and better raw card quality, so it's hard to try and grind them out. And lastly, quick clocks like Goyf and Scooze mean you have to draw removal or somehow race them.
Pro black creatures work because it's a way to play fair that simply cheeses midrange instead of playing their grindy two-for-one game. I'm guessing Mirran Crusader or Mystic Enforcer aren't what you're looking for :o) The advantage with those two over Colossus against BG is that they better deal with a board of opposing green beaters. Beyond pro black creatures, with 4 Tef already in the 75 the best suggestion I have are walkers like Gideon AoZ. You could try going super deep with other cheese plans like Asceticism which would allow you to chump, regen until you assemble the combo. But it goes without saying that 5 mana is a lot. I tried Tireless Tracker, which was okay, but it underperformed most of the time. It's not hard to race the clues or the body, and they can easily kill it within a turn to limit you to one or two clues drawn.
By the way, I've been liking Giver after recognizing that I want more protection effects than 4 Lunge. Presently, I am cutting the extra dork, 3rd Neoform, and 2nd main deck Tef for 3 Giver. I moved the Tef to the board, cutting the 3rd BFT.
I think you missed the point I was making: the pro-black dudes plan may beat BGx, but it does NOT beat all the other decks that disrupt on multiple axes and apply pressure, such as BW Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer, and Esper Death's Shadow.
So I'm looking for alternatives. I suppose we could play fair with Lil Teferi and Gideon AoZ. But Giver of Runes may change everything. Giver backed up by Greaves, Shalai, Eternal Witness, and maybe some sort of removal should handle ANY midrange deck. But the MD has few slots to cut in general and the SB obviously does not have that kind of space. I'd really like to hear your experiences with Giver in relation to midrange opponents.
Try to fit the 4th Giver, so you can see it often so you can evaluate the card properly. It is good in so many circumstances and you need to experience that.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Also, the Discord channels for Druid combo got some reorganizing. All-in shells, like this deck, are now separate from Chalice shells. Things should be clearer now.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
I've been changing up my list slightly. I've added the 4th Giver and Ranger-Captain of Eos along with couple Razorverge Thickets to help cast them. I made room by cutting the 3rd Duskwatch and Ezuri, and for lands I took out the 3rd Forest and 10th fetch. If I'm finding the mana a little greedy on 2 Forests, I'll trim the 9th fetch for a 3rd Forest. Overall, I definitely have liked Giver more and more as MH1 has shifted Modern into a slower, more fair place thanks to W&6 and Force of Negation mostly. Ranger-Captain is a nice option over Ezuri to help in fair matchups. It's not as good at protecting Druid, but I've liked the ability to two-for-one. Double white is definitely a problem, but I just need to get some reps in with it to really evaluate that cost.
I had a nice FNM beating UW Control, E Tron, losing to Jund, and beating Phoenix. My G1 against Jund was pretty funny where on the play I T1 Noble, it gets Pushed, T2 Druid, and my opponent T2 plays Hexdrinker and casts TS seeing this hand: Neoform, E Wit, Postmortem Lunge. They take E Witness and I top a 2nd Lunge to win with a neat sequence of Lunge Noble, Neoform it into Vizier for infy mana, Lunge Witness to bring back Neoform and Neoform Vizier into Ezuri FTW.
I'm hope to stream at least a couple leagues this week with the list below at twitch.tv/chillerpillar
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Giver of Runes
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ranger-Captain of Eos
1 Walking Ballista
Spells (13)
2 Neoform
3 Finale of Devastation
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Postmortem Lunge
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills.
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Waterlogged Grove
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Path to Exile
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Spellskite
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Meddling Mage
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Deputy of Detention
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Chameleon Colossus
1 Mystic Enforcer
My meta is absolutely polluted with UW and Bx. So even without having concrete data on Veil, I'll be jamming it hard. Post board I'll be on 4x Lil Tefer and 4x Veil. The 4x Giver is obvious. I think I keep all 4 Lunge in, post board despite the GY hate, just because it increases the number of win routes.
Playing 7x cards that 2-for-1 me, in a meta of removal and discard and counterspells is not viable. I'm trying some brews while I figure out where I want to go with the deck. I'm certain 4x MD Giver and 3-4x SB Veil will be in any version I build. Once I have anything worth discussing, I'll report back.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
I do like testing by just playing a bunch and seeing what you think in practice. I'd think you could try a list that plays more MD Tef with 4x Finale and 4x Eladamri's Call for tutors. I have experimented with slower lists like that for more fair metagames. Good luck brewing
4 birds
4 giver
4 druid
4 vizier
1 duskwatch
1 EWit
1 ballista
2 Neoform
2 elad call
2 Eldritch evolution
3 finale
4 Postmortem Lunge
20 land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Waterlogged Grove
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Botanical Sanctum
3 Path to Exile
2 shalai
1 collector ouphe
1 eidolon of rhetoric
2 forge tender
1 Knight of autumn
3 veil of summer
2 shapers sanctuary
It's designed to retain as much as possible of that unfair, super fast power of the original neoform+eldritch shells, while surviving in a super fair (lots of removal and interaction) environment.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Congrats to Laurens Van der Beek on their 10th place finish last weekend. They decided to play a red splash for maindeck Magus of the Moon and also they played a black splash for some sideboard bullets. Veil of Summer is proving to be a high impact card for our deck, allowing us to easier stay on the combo plan in fair matchups.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Giver of Runes
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Ranger-Captain of Eos
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Walking Ballista
Spells (16)
4 Eladamri's Call
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Finale of Devastation
4 Postmortem Lunge
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Veil of Summer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Plague Engineer
2 Path to Exile
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Hexdrinker
1 Collector Ouphe
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
You might like this version of the deck that's 5-0'd a couple of times. It's better equipped to win game one against fair strategies.
4 Giver of Runes
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Eternal Witness
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Walking Ballista
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Eladamri's Call
4 Finale of Devastation
3 Postmortem Lunge
Lands (21)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Kor Firewalker
3 Path to Exile
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Unified Will
1 Vivien, Champion of the Wilds