I still can't believe my eyes. Assassin's trophy is a card (or will be soon ) and it is in contention for the trophy of best removal in the format.
Sultai has always been so far a midrange deck, mostly based on discard spells, (mostly) inefficient kill spells (well push helped a bit lately) and big threats (such as tarmogoyf or grim flayer).
However, I believe that this card is not only erasing bad MUs by being able to deal with lands (tron, valakut, ...) and planeswalkers (hum... UW you got me so many times with your teferi's) - but a viable control deck (yes - a real one) can come out of it and be at least a solid tier 2 deck.
So I assume that we would lean away from discard in the mainboard (it can come from the sb for combo decks) since there is no reason to be afraid of a bad permanent resolving and we can lean more on counterspells.
My only big question - and before posting a list - I would really like to brainstorm this with you: what shall be the win conditions ? Dudes, walkers or any sort of combo that could be suitable for the deck (thopter sword could be nice since we can get rid of the possible lock pieces with assassin's trophy) ?
That's kind of the problem with control decks. There are too many good options each with their own merits.
You could play the usual goyfs and/or delve creatures but then you don't get to use Damnation and you are probably looking at being more of a midrange deck.
I think a walkers list is the direction I would take. There are a lot of great planeswalkers in BUG: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Liliana, the Last Hope, Liliana of the Veil, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, etc.
The question is what sort of strategy do you want to play? There are so many options and none are clearly superior.
You also need a good reason to be in Green. Trophy is good but UB Control is already a potential deck and control decks need really good mana bases to function properly. I played this UB Planeswalker Control list for a while and it felt very solid, it might be a good starting point: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ub-superfriends-control/
I'm not sure about a sideboard yet but between trophy and some of the other new tech (Connive // Concoct ) I think we definitely have an archetype in the works here.
I don't really understand you two, "Griselbrand" and "Goryo's vengeance" don't sounds like "UBg Sultai control" Deck but more in "UBg Sultai Tempo"(Here, Blue just give you Cantrips ..), i never played Goryos Deck but i don't think it was Control deck.
Using the terms "Control" with "Sultai" Colors means using best Controlish Spells we have access, not ?
The reason Tempo decks generally run cantrips is because they are cheap ways to find cheap interaction to protect cheap threats. As opposed to running a steady stream of disruption into a finisher. Just because you can Sultai Charm + Goryo's Vengeance your Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on turn 5 does not mean you are running a tempo deck. Nor does hitting a Griselbrand for a free draw 7, deal 7 damage.
You may be asking why even run green, or why run green over red?
Historically decks like these suffer from having effective catch all removal. Red gets a little flexible with things like Kolaghan's Command but it is still quite limited, and while Path to Exile is great, you still can get cornered into awkward situations where removing things other than creatures can mean you have to sideboard in such a way that you deviate from an otherwise linear gameplan. Assassin's Trophy goes a LONG ways towards correcting that without having to give up a whole lot of space during sideboard games. Green additionally lets you dig deep with a solid amount of flexibility in Sultai Charm where Esper Charm doesn't have the same stabilizing options. Additionally, green lets you avoid falling prey to Bloodmoon in the same way Esper Gifts (some ran Goryo Combo) would, because you have access to Trophy and Abrupt Decay.
Something else I will add, is that while this deck can seem pretty straight forward - it can get really technical if you want it to. End of your opponent's turn you could cast Sultai Charm discarding Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur forcing them to discard to 0 on their clean up then swing with Jin and draw 7 when you pass the turn. You can EOT toolbox piles with Gifts- even giving you the option to run Unburial Rites if you really want to go deep. One thing I recall is that the 4-Color Gifts decks from 2013/2015 that were all over Magic Online and even in some 1k and 5ks, was that their spot removal options really were just terrible. The deck struggled to interact well with a lot of rising decks at the time like Kiki combo and Pod in their Control-oriented state. Trophy is a card those decks always needed.
Bringing my reply full circle, this deck concept is radically different from a Tempo deck. At least in the version I was conceptualizing.
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STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
The direction I'm going to be trying to go with in my deck is going to be as a GB removal deck with U draw to keep the hand relevant and dig for what is needed as for a few counters to try to help pull ahead, while using a couple options that aren't available using straight GB.
There is probably a fair bit of work that needs to be done to the list, but I think it's going to be a strong start. What I'm trying to do is set up more card advantage by card draw and selection over other GBx decks with better targeted removal than UWx decks, with plans to have a healthy amount of discard in the SB to bring in as needed, as well as the necessary graveyard hate and a couple of Golgari Charm. The lack of Goyfs, Jaces, and appropriate fetches are due to budget concerns, while I simply haven't got around to grabbing the correct fast lands yet.
I think I'd play something like Jaberwocki's UB thing in the ice deck, replace snapcasters with Mission Briefing and move some of the junky black spells like Cast Down and Smother into Assassin's Trophy. Probably cut the Lily the last hopes as well.
I posted this list in the Sultai Midrange-thread here as well, but as the list is basically a reworked Grixis Control in BUG colors I think it suits this thread better.
Here's my BUG Midrange/Control build I'm experimenting with. I'm considering if it's worth it to have 1-2 JtMS in there as well, but so far this list has been working pretty well without him. Any thoughts?
Some comments: I decided between goyf and delve threats, since I think they usually don't go well together. The delve guys feel more reliable than goyf, and Thought Scour synergizes great with Snapcaster Mage aswell. Having access to Tasigur's ability in the late game allows me to pretty much drown any opponent in CA, and Trackers work similarly while also providing a great clock. The SB is very much a work in progress, and built with my local meta in mind (not a lot of Burn, so I don't run any Collective Brutalities for instance).
Win conditions is definitely the problem. I take it that the OP, like myself, doesn't really want to go mid-range but creatures are usually the best way to win. I tried to think of noncreature ways to win (besides Planeswalkers) and unless you're going a combo route, there really aren't a lot of good ways to do it.
Basically we still need to win with creatures, but we can still make it so that we blank their removal in one of two ways, either the creature cantrips, has hexproof, or comes from a repeatable source (think bitterblossom or other token generators).
On that note, I think our best options are Snapcaster Mage and Lumbering Falls. But I'm looking at couple other cards as well. One I'm looking at as maybe a 1 or 2 of depending on curve is Nightveil Predator . Reminds of a watered down Baleful Strix; I'll take the 1/1 stats over 3/3 for the reduced Mana cost any day, but draw a card vs hexproof is close enough for my purposes.
Another is Isochron Scepter, again probably as a 1-of since you can't really have it clogging up your hand and you don't want to cast it until you can activate it in the same turn since having it destroyed would be such a massive blowout. But scepter with Trophy is a wincondition in it's own right, and it probably wins with mission briefing under it as well.
I had another idea, and it's cute, but it's bad. I'm mentioning it mostly to get some ideas flowing, and hopefully somebody can think of something similar but better. It's 1-of Sprout Swarm. You can spend it early for a chump block and buy it back super late game with Mission Briefing to pump out creatures. I would much prefer something like Secure the Wastes, but there doesn't seem like a good card in these colors to do that.Empty the Pits is similar, but it's expensive and hard to cast.
Couple issues with it: It still feels really light on win conditions and most of the 1 drops don't work well with Isochron Scepter. The scepter issue isn't that big of a deal, you could switch out the opt and play more countermagic over the discard and it would basically be the same. But the win condition issue still feels pretty bad. Considering a singelton bitterblossom but with no way to gain life it seems risky in a deck that won't be pressuring the opponent. Would really appreciate some suggestions for token generators.
about winco, I totally agree, it is my main concern since my first post.
I think someone above had a good suggestion. we can remain draw go with thought scour, the jump start think twice and sultai charm and then just reanimate a combo pièce with goryo. I still need to think about it but there seems to be potential there.
Jace and nissa steward are just the through the breach good on it's own, while goryo.. well remains goryo
How well have the Countersqualls been working out for you? I get that the deck isn't much of a counterspell deck, but what are your thoughts on Logic Knot or any other 2 mana counterspells?
And have you considered something like Nissa, Steward of Elements as another win condition that allows you to dig, or do you think that she has too little impact?
On the Flaying Tendrils in the board, is there any particular reason for running them instead of Languish or Damnation?
The Countersqualls have been working pretty good, the incidental damage helps to close the games, esp with Snapcaster Mage. I've been considering testing 1-2 Logic Knot, but just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. I think they have a lot going for them.
Considering Nissa, I think she's just too little impact. I'd honestly rather run Ashiok than her. But again, this is just a feeling I have. I should add her to my playtest schedule, thanks for the suggestion!
Flaying Tendrils is mostly a way to clear out annoying recursive threats such as Bloodghasts and tokens. The card bridges the gap pretty decently between my 1-of Damnation and the two EE, and it gets some incidental bonus value by ignoring stuff like Selfless Spirit.
Right now I'm about to test the deck with a single Sunken Ruins and a Tombstalker in place of the Gurmag Angler since the Angler isn't really set up to hit the field early anyway, and the evasion could be a huge upside.
Edit: I've been running the deck on xmage for a bit. So far I'm 6-1 with the only loss being against a friend running a similar list as mine. This deck is the real thing.
Latest iteration. We're continuing to try out different card choices. So far, split between 3 of us we're a combined 47-6 on xmage. I've been really high on the Trackers, but gone down to 2 in the MB as they are virtual 4-drops and usually you want them even later. Collective Brutality in the main is a test, and considered a hedge against an aggressive meta, but I think the Tracker in the SB could just as easly switch places with it.
Been seeing a lot of instant heavy (or card type lite) decks with goyf. At that point, I'd cut him for a CA engine like tracker/courser. Courser is a fine t5 play so you can leave up interaction.
I think the threats need to be either goyf and/or grim flayed with appropriate supporting cast of various card types, delve with plenty of stuff to fill the bin, or a instant/walker/snapcaster heavy build with stronger top end threats. The third build needs something with built in protection or recursion.
So i tried the combo route but without success. I decided to come back to the straight blue black control with a green splash for assassin's trophy and here is my first take. I'll try it out yesterday with friends and will keep you posted.
My manabase has been absolutely wrecking me. The deck is performing well over all, and I've been loving lumbering falls, but I feel like my manabase could be a better. I'm not having an issue with ETB untapped, but a lot of the games i've lost come from stabilizing when 3-5 life too low.
Any recommendations on how to incorporate 4x Lumbering falls in a manabase that only needs green for Trophy? I'm looking to cast UU (Briefing), 1UUU (Cryptic), GB (Trophy) and 2BB(Damnation).
My manabase has been absolutely wrecking me. The deck is performing well over all, and I've been loving lumbering falls, but I feel like my manabase could be a better. I'm not having an issue with ETB untapped, but a lot of the games i've lost come from stabilizing when 3-5 life too low.
Any recommendations on how to incorporate 4x Lumbering falls in a manabase that only needs green for Trophy? I'm looking to cast UU (Briefing), 1UUU (Cryptic), GB (Trophy) and 2BB(Damnation).
I think I could probably get away with cutting a misty or two, but what do I replace it with?
I'd consider replacing 1-2 tar pits for verdants. If you're deck is primary U, secondary B, tertiary G you have too many green sources (15 including fetches) so you can start trimming there. If you're taking too much damage, consider sunken hollow if you can afford to go a little later in the game with basics - but not more than a 1-2 of.
If you're relying on lumbering falls, which is fine because it's a great card, I would consider it as a 2-3 of. It's an incredibly sticky threat as they can't sweep it or target it with removal. They have to have land destruction while the shields are down. Not having the 6 tapped manlands will help you have smoother draws. Keep in mind you can activate falls to hexproof it from land destruction, however they can also respond to the activation and get it while your mana is spent if you get aggressive too early. It's a late game wincon, and because it is you don't need more than probably 2.
Creature lite lists will have creepy tar pit die on activation all the time. I'm not a fan of it personally, especially if you aren't discard heavy.
Check out the jund primer and build it similar to there lists as a starter. They are primary B, secondary G, tertiary R (which is why it's rare to see any RR cards in their lists). That should give you an estimate on how to build it out.
All of those suggestions are logical, well reasoned and helpful; I reject them all.
Jokes aside I really want to keep 4x Lumbering falls over tarpit because I'm actually a near creatureless build (2x Snap) so I need the hexproof threats, I think?
I've played about 20 games with the above manabase and the 'activate in response to land destruction' is a pipe dream I once had as well. There's very rarely a time when you can afford to tap 4 Mana in response to a field activation in your end step.
What did you mean by 'cutting the tar pits for verdants'? I don't have any tar pits?
All of those suggestions are logical, well reasoned and helpful; I reject them all.
Jokes aside I really want to keep 4x Lumbering falls over tarpit because I'm actually a near creatureless build (2x Snap) so I need the hexproof threats, I think?
I've played about 20 games with the above manabase and the 'activate in response to land destruction' is a pipe dream I once had as well. There's very rarely a time when you can afford to tap 4 Mana in response to a field activation in your end step.
What did you mean by 'cutting the tar pits for verdants'? I don't have any tar pits?
I'm silly and clearly can't read darkslick shores lol. sorry about that. I'd still consider changing the darkslicks for verdants. They are only good if they appear in the top 10 cards of the deck (assuming you have no velocity, that would be what you see by t3 on the draw). After that they are always going to be essentially a guild gate.
I love me some fast lands, but usually only for combo or aggro. Anything with a 4+ drop I typically avoid them. Jund runs cliffs due to the volume of colored one drops (discard/bolt) I believe. I think fetchland on T1 if you want interaction up (discard/push) is fine if you insist on popping off a cantrip T1, you'll typically have at least one other land in your opening to make blue with. Additionally, T1 falls is probably the most ideal time to cast if you don't have a T1 play (especially on the play).
Lumbering Falls seems super clunky to me, I'd really want some evasion on those. I run a singleton Creeping Tar Pit which works pretty well at closing the games through board stalls, but often enough when I could activate it to pressure my opponent I rather sit back and wait with open mana. Going so heavy on creature lands seems a bit at odds with a control deck wanting to play a reactive game. A deck like Jund or Abzan can do it pretty well, since they mostly tap out for their threats/answers, but when cards like Negate and Cryptic are involved, creature lands get worse.
An idea could be to lower the number of Lumbering Falls, and instead run something like 1-2 Crucible of Worlds in your deck so you can buy them back. Also lets you keep straining your opponents basic land count with FoR and GQ.
Also, don't let my scepticism dissuade you, I haven't tried your list and these are just assumptions I'm making here:)
I really appreciate the scepticism actually, and I post here in order to get critical responses, the last thing I need is people just telling me it's fine. Alternative perspectives is just what i'm looking for.
As far as your suggestion for crucible goes, I probably will try something like that at some point, crucible has always been a medium to fine card in control decks anyways. My only issue with that might be that finding space for Field of Ruin might be difficult, I'm already struggling without having any colorless sources. I also thought maybe life from the loam, it's a Mana cheaper and even if it gets countered you can still dredge it which is nice option against othrt control decks where you usually want that effect anyways.
I think I might not have been clear though because I keep getting suggestions for cutting tap lands: my problem isn't with not having the right colors on time, or with lands ETB untapped. My issue seems to be the pain related to having 8 fetches and 3 shocks. I feel like Jeskai can get away with this to some extent because of lightning Helix, but we just don't have any good life gain cards in Sultai other than Thragtusk (which I don't want to play). I thought I could mitigate that by dropping the field of ruins and running all colored sources, but it still doesn't seem to be working (stabilizing at life totals that are too low). Do you guys think I could get away with a manabase with only 5-6 fetchs and 1-2 shocks?
What do you think about using checklands if you're only going to have the checks and manlands as your taplands. Might be an occasional awkward hand but depending on your gameplan they might work better.
We do have a Lightning Helix of sorts, it's called Collective Brutality:)
But yeah, I agree, the mana is painful for us if we want to play BUG Control utilizing cards like Cryptic and Snap. So far I'm not getting too punished against aggro, but if the meta adjusts to this type of deck I think we'd probably want some more lifegain in the deck. I used to run Pulse of Murasa in the SB, it could also be an option for you with the extra creature lands.
We do have a Lightning Helix of sorts, it's called Collective Brutality:)
But yeah, I agree, the mana is painful for us if we want to play BUG Control utilizing cards like Cryptic and Snap. So far I'm not getting too punished against aggro, but if the meta adjusts to this type of deck I think we'd probably want some more lifegain in the deck. I used to run Pulse of Murasa in the SB, it could also be an option for you with the extra creature lands.
Pulse of Murasa is an interest one for sure, but I was thinking the same thing about Collective Brutality yesterday. It doesn't really synergize with the rest of what I'm doing though so i'm currently trying out Moment of Craving. Opponent not losing 2 life is not really a big deal, but not being able to pseudo-duress is. Not sure if being an instant and synergizing with Isochron Scepter is enough to cover the difference. Depends on how good the matchups are where being able to take an instant/sorcery matter - Control, Burn, storm and death shadow; can you guys think of more, or how those matchups are?
As a GDS player I can attest that if you're playing a control and/or midrange deck you need to have a super tuned list to beat it consistently. They play fewer lands, have a lower curve and the deck is filled with disruption. Basically any draw is live against a deck like ours. I've been running them against each other, and it's probably the one MU where I sometimes wish Trophy was Decay. Having your desperate "tap draw" Cryptic countered for U is just all kinds of feel bad.
I think hand disruption is key here, if we can make them stumble on deploying a threat the cards should quickly fall our way. One of the MUs where I think Unmoored Ego is well worth bringing in.
I also ran my list a few matches against Storm yesterday. Seemed like a good MU, but got punished a couple of games when I kept bad hands. They can explode pretty fast when not interrupted correctly. Post board with more disruption and less cost intensive threats (out with Trackers and Trophies) I don't really see how their average draw would beat ours tbh, the MU skewed pretty heavily towards BUG at that point.
Not sure if Scepter is where I'd want to be in a modern meta where GBx will be prevalent and possibly filled with even more permanent-destruction. It's a really bad top deck in the face of an active LotV, and you could easily be 2-for-1 against them. Then again, this might just be a worst case scenario, and the kind of MU where you board them out and just play the beautiful BUG grind where everything they ever bought, opened in a pack or traded for is reduced to rubble or countered.
I love this deck.
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Sultai has always been so far a midrange deck, mostly based on discard spells, (mostly) inefficient kill spells (well push helped a bit lately) and big threats (such as tarmogoyf or grim flayer).
However, I believe that this card is not only erasing bad MUs by being able to deal with lands (tron, valakut, ...) and planeswalkers (hum... UW you got me so many times with your teferi's) - but a viable control deck (yes - a real one) can come out of it and be at least a solid tier 2 deck.
So I assume that we would lean away from discard in the mainboard (it can come from the sb for combo decks) since there is no reason to be afraid of a bad permanent resolving and we can lean more on counterspells.
My only big question - and before posting a list - I would really like to brainstorm this with you: what shall be the win conditions ? Dudes, walkers or any sort of combo that could be suitable for the deck (thopter sword could be nice since we can get rid of the possible lock pieces with assassin's trophy) ?
Looking forward to reading your thoughts.
You could play the usual goyfs and/or delve creatures but then you don't get to use Damnation and you are probably looking at being more of a midrange deck.
I think a walkers list is the direction I would take. There are a lot of great planeswalkers in BUG:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Liliana, the Last Hope, Liliana of the Veil, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, etc.
The question is what sort of strategy do you want to play? There are so many options and none are clearly superior.
You also need a good reason to be in Green. Trophy is good but UB Control is already a potential deck and control decks need really good mana bases to function properly. I played this UB Planeswalker Control list for a while and it felt very solid, it might be a good starting point: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ub-superfriends-control/
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster mage
3 Cryptic Serpent
Spells
4 Opt
3 Thought Scour
3 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Snare
1 Countersquall
1 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Mission Briefing
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Liliana of the veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Lands (22)
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Botanical Sanctum
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping tar pit
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
I'm not sure about a sideboard yet but between trophy and some of the other new tech (Connive // Concoct ) I think we definitely have an archetype in the works here.
Draft My Cube!
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
UR Breach is a control deck not a tempo deck.
I am not sure what about Goryo's Vengeance + Griselbrand/Emrakul, the Aeons Torn screams tempo to you. The premise is the same - control the board until you can kill your opponent. Having your threat stick around for a single turn does not deviate from this core function. Tempo decks historically have the core function of going under your opponent with mana efficiency every turn in a compounding manner, i.e Delver of Secrets with Daze/Force of Will. Or Geist of Saint Traft with Restoration Angel and Mana Leak.
The reason Tempo decks generally run cantrips is because they are cheap ways to find cheap interaction to protect cheap threats. As opposed to running a steady stream of disruption into a finisher. Just because you can Sultai Charm + Goryo's Vengeance your Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on turn 5 does not mean you are running a tempo deck. Nor does hitting a Griselbrand for a free draw 7, deal 7 damage.
3 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Sultai Charm
4 Remand
2 Repeal
2 Condescend
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mission Briefing
1 Compulsive Research
2 Search for Azcanta
You may be asking why even run green, or why run green over red?
Historically decks like these suffer from having effective catch all removal. Red gets a little flexible with things like Kolaghan's Command but it is still quite limited, and while Path to Exile is great, you still can get cornered into awkward situations where removing things other than creatures can mean you have to sideboard in such a way that you deviate from an otherwise linear gameplan. Assassin's Trophy goes a LONG ways towards correcting that without having to give up a whole lot of space during sideboard games. Green additionally lets you dig deep with a solid amount of flexibility in Sultai Charm where Esper Charm doesn't have the same stabilizing options. Additionally, green lets you avoid falling prey to Bloodmoon in the same way Esper Gifts (some ran Goryo Combo) would, because you have access to Trophy and Abrupt Decay.
Something else I will add, is that while this deck can seem pretty straight forward - it can get really technical if you want it to. End of your opponent's turn you could cast Sultai Charm discarding Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur forcing them to discard to 0 on their clean up then swing with Jin and draw 7 when you pass the turn. You can EOT toolbox piles with Gifts- even giving you the option to run Unburial Rites if you really want to go deep. One thing I recall is that the 4-Color Gifts decks from 2013/2015 that were all over Magic Online and even in some 1k and 5ks, was that their spot removal options really were just terrible. The deck struggled to interact well with a lot of rising decks at the time like Kiki combo and Pod in their Control-oriented state. Trophy is a card those decks always needed.
Bringing my reply full circle, this deck concept is radically different from a Tempo deck. At least in the version I was conceptualizing.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
4 Tireless Tracker
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Nissa, Steward of the Elements
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
Killing Spells (12)
3 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Damnation
Counter Spells (7)
2 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
4 Opt
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
Lands (25)
3 Lumbering Falls
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Ghost Quarter / Field of Ruin
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
There is probably a fair bit of work that needs to be done to the list, but I think it's going to be a strong start. What I'm trying to do is set up more card advantage by card draw and selection over other GBx decks with better targeted removal than UWx decks, with plans to have a healthy amount of discard in the SB to bring in as needed, as well as the necessary graveyard hate and a couple of Golgari Charm. The lack of Goyfs, Jaces, and appropriate fetches are due to budget concerns, while I simply haven't got around to grabbing the correct fast lands yet.
Here's my BUG Midrange/Control build I'm experimenting with. I'm considering if it's worth it to have 1-2 JtMS in there as well, but so far this list has been working pretty well without him. Any thoughts?
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Tireless Tracker
Instants:
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Countersquall
2 Cryptic Command
4 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
Sorceries:
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands:
1 Breeding Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Field of Ruin
1 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flaying Tendrils
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pulse of Murasa
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thragtusk
1 Unmoored Ego
Some comments: I decided between goyf and delve threats, since I think they usually don't go well together. The delve guys feel more reliable than goyf, and Thought Scour synergizes great with Snapcaster Mage aswell. Having access to Tasigur's ability in the late game allows me to pretty much drown any opponent in CA, and Trackers work similarly while also providing a great clock. The SB is very much a work in progress, and built with my local meta in mind (not a lot of Burn, so I don't run any Collective Brutalities for instance).
Basically we still need to win with creatures, but we can still make it so that we blank their removal in one of two ways, either the creature cantrips, has hexproof, or comes from a repeatable source (think bitterblossom or other token generators).
On that note, I think our best options are Snapcaster Mage and Lumbering Falls. But I'm looking at couple other cards as well. One I'm looking at as maybe a 1 or 2 of depending on curve is Nightveil Predator . Reminds of a watered down Baleful Strix; I'll take the 1/1 stats over 3/3 for the reduced Mana cost any day, but draw a card vs hexproof is close enough for my purposes.
Another is Isochron Scepter, again probably as a 1-of since you can't really have it clogging up your hand and you don't want to cast it until you can activate it in the same turn since having it destroyed would be such a massive blowout. But scepter with Trophy is a wincondition in it's own right, and it probably wins with mission briefing under it as well.
I had another idea, and it's cute, but it's bad. I'm mentioning it mostly to get some ideas flowing, and hopefully somebody can think of something similar but better. It's 1-of Sprout Swarm. You can spend it early for a chump block and buy it back super late game with Mission Briefing to pump out creatures. I would much prefer something like Secure the Wastes, but there doesn't seem like a good card in these colors to do that.Empty the Pits is similar, but it's expensive and hard to cast.
Here's the list that I'll start testing:
2 Whispers of the Muse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thought seize
4 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Damnation
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Nightveil Predator
2 Cryptic Command
2 Negate
3 Jace, the mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, The last Hope
1 Isochron scepter
Land 23
4 Darkslick shores
3 Lumbering Falls
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 forest
2 Swamp
3 island
Couple issues with it: It still feels really light on win conditions and most of the 1 drops don't work well with Isochron Scepter. The scepter issue isn't that big of a deal, you could switch out the opt and play more countermagic over the discard and it would basically be the same. But the win condition issue still feels pretty bad. Considering a singelton bitterblossom but with no way to gain life it seems risky in a deck that won't be pressuring the opponent. Would really appreciate some suggestions for token generators.
I think someone above had a good suggestion. we can remain draw go with thought scour, the jump start think twice and sultai charm and then just reanimate a combo pièce with goryo. I still need to think about it but there seems to be potential there.
Jace and nissa steward are just the through the breach good on it's own, while goryo.. well remains goryo
How well have the Countersqualls been working out for you? I get that the deck isn't much of a counterspell deck, but what are your thoughts on Logic Knot or any other 2 mana counterspells?
And have you considered something like Nissa, Steward of Elements as another win condition that allows you to dig, or do you think that she has too little impact?
On the Flaying Tendrils in the board, is there any particular reason for running them instead of Languish or Damnation?
Considering Nissa, I think she's just too little impact. I'd honestly rather run Ashiok than her. But again, this is just a feeling I have. I should add her to my playtest schedule, thanks for the suggestion!
Flaying Tendrils is mostly a way to clear out annoying recursive threats such as Bloodghasts and tokens. The card bridges the gap pretty decently between my 1-of Damnation and the two EE, and it gets some incidental bonus value by ignoring stuff like Selfless Spirit.
Right now I'm about to test the deck with a single Sunken Ruins and a Tombstalker in place of the Gurmag Angler since the Angler isn't really set up to hit the field early anyway, and the evasion could be a huge upside.
Edit: I've been running the deck on xmage for a bit. So far I'm 6-1 with the only loss being against a friend running a similar list as mine. This deck is the real thing.
Latest iteration. We're continuing to try out different card choices. So far, split between 3 of us we're a combined 47-6 on xmage. I've been really high on the Trackers, but gone down to 2 in the MB as they are virtual 4-drops and usually you want them even later. Collective Brutality in the main is a test, and considered a hedge against an aggressive meta, but I think the Tracker in the SB could just as easly switch places with it.
I think the threats need to be either goyf and/or grim flayed with appropriate supporting cast of various card types, delve with plenty of stuff to fill the bin, or a instant/walker/snapcaster heavy build with stronger top end threats. The third build needs something with built in protection or recursion.
Just my $0.02.
// 10 Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Thing in the Ice
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
// 2 Enchantments
2 Search for Azcanta
// 21 Instants
4 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
4 Opt
3 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Logic Knot
3 Cryptic Command
1 Countersquall
// 24 Lands
3 Field of Ruin
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Watery Grave
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 1 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
// 2 Creature
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
// 5 Instant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Countersquall
1 Dispel
1 Surgical Extraction
// 7 Sorcery
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmoored Ego
2 Damnation
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
Any recommendations on how to incorporate 4x Lumbering falls in a manabase that only needs green for Trophy? I'm looking to cast UU (Briefing), 1UUU (Cryptic), GB (Trophy) and 2BB(Damnation).
Here's where I'm at:
3 Darkslick shores
4 Lumbering Falls
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 breeding pool
2 Swamp
3 Island
I think I could probably get away with cutting a misty or two, but what do I replace it with?
I'd consider replacing 1-2 tar pits for verdants. If you're deck is primary U, secondary B, tertiary G you have too many green sources (15 including fetches) so you can start trimming there. If you're taking too much damage, consider sunken hollow if you can afford to go a little later in the game with basics - but not more than a 1-2 of.
If you're relying on lumbering falls, which is fine because it's a great card, I would consider it as a 2-3 of. It's an incredibly sticky threat as they can't sweep it or target it with removal. They have to have land destruction while the shields are down. Not having the 6 tapped manlands will help you have smoother draws. Keep in mind you can activate falls to hexproof it from land destruction, however they can also respond to the activation and get it while your mana is spent if you get aggressive too early. It's a late game wincon, and because it is you don't need more than probably 2.
Creature lite lists will have creepy tar pit die on activation all the time. I'm not a fan of it personally, especially if you aren't discard heavy.
Check out the jund primer and build it similar to there lists as a starter. They are primary B, secondary G, tertiary R (which is why it's rare to see any RR cards in their lists). That should give you an estimate on how to build it out.
All of those suggestions are logical, well reasoned and helpful; I reject them all.
Jokes aside I really want to keep 4x Lumbering falls over tarpit because I'm actually a near creatureless build (2x Snap) so I need the hexproof threats, I think?
I've played about 20 games with the above manabase and the 'activate in response to land destruction' is a pipe dream I once had as well. There's very rarely a time when you can afford to tap 4 Mana in response to a field activation in your end step.
What did you mean by 'cutting the tar pits for verdants'? I don't have any tar pits?
I'm silly and clearly can't read darkslick shores lol. sorry about that. I'd still consider changing the darkslicks for verdants. They are only good if they appear in the top 10 cards of the deck (assuming you have no velocity, that would be what you see by t3 on the draw). After that they are always going to be essentially a guild gate.
I love me some fast lands, but usually only for combo or aggro. Anything with a 4+ drop I typically avoid them. Jund runs cliffs due to the volume of colored one drops (discard/bolt) I believe. I think fetchland on T1 if you want interaction up (discard/push) is fine if you insist on popping off a cantrip T1, you'll typically have at least one other land in your opening to make blue with. Additionally, T1 falls is probably the most ideal time to cast if you don't have a T1 play (especially on the play).
An idea could be to lower the number of Lumbering Falls, and instead run something like 1-2 Crucible of Worlds in your deck so you can buy them back. Also lets you keep straining your opponents basic land count with FoR and GQ.
Also, don't let my scepticism dissuade you, I haven't tried your list and these are just assumptions I'm making here:)
I really appreciate the scepticism actually, and I post here in order to get critical responses, the last thing I need is people just telling me it's fine. Alternative perspectives is just what i'm looking for.
As far as your suggestion for crucible goes, I probably will try something like that at some point, crucible has always been a medium to fine card in control decks anyways. My only issue with that might be that finding space for Field of Ruin might be difficult, I'm already struggling without having any colorless sources. I also thought maybe life from the loam, it's a Mana cheaper and even if it gets countered you can still dredge it which is nice option against othrt control decks where you usually want that effect anyways.
I think I might not have been clear though because I keep getting suggestions for cutting tap lands: my problem isn't with not having the right colors on time, or with lands ETB untapped. My issue seems to be the pain related to having 8 fetches and 3 shocks. I feel like Jeskai can get away with this to some extent because of lightning Helix, but we just don't have any good life gain cards in Sultai other than Thragtusk (which I don't want to play). I thought I could mitigate that by dropping the field of ruins and running all colored sources, but it still doesn't seem to be working (stabilizing at life totals that are too low). Do you guys think I could get away with a manabase with only 5-6 fetchs and 1-2 shocks?
Theoretically, could something like this work?
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown tomb
1 Drowned catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Forest
This would be:
19u
16b
12g
Could that work?
But yeah, I agree, the mana is painful for us if we want to play BUG Control utilizing cards like Cryptic and Snap. So far I'm not getting too punished against aggro, but if the meta adjusts to this type of deck I think we'd probably want some more lifegain in the deck. I used to run Pulse of Murasa in the SB, it could also be an option for you with the extra creature lands.
Pulse of Murasa is an interest one for sure, but I was thinking the same thing about Collective Brutality yesterday. It doesn't really synergize with the rest of what I'm doing though so i'm currently trying out Moment of Craving. Opponent not losing 2 life is not really a big deal, but not being able to pseudo-duress is. Not sure if being an instant and synergizing with Isochron Scepter is enough to cover the difference. Depends on how good the matchups are where being able to take an instant/sorcery matter - Control, Burn, storm and death shadow; can you guys think of more, or how those matchups are?
I think hand disruption is key here, if we can make them stumble on deploying a threat the cards should quickly fall our way. One of the MUs where I think Unmoored Ego is well worth bringing in.
I also ran my list a few matches against Storm yesterday. Seemed like a good MU, but got punished a couple of games when I kept bad hands. They can explode pretty fast when not interrupted correctly. Post board with more disruption and less cost intensive threats (out with Trackers and Trophies) I don't really see how their average draw would beat ours tbh, the MU skewed pretty heavily towards BUG at that point.
Not sure if Scepter is where I'd want to be in a modern meta where GBx will be prevalent and possibly filled with even more permanent-destruction. It's a really bad top deck in the face of an active LotV, and you could easily be 2-for-1 against them. Then again, this might just be a worst case scenario, and the kind of MU where you board them out and just play the beautiful BUG grind where everything they ever bought, opened in a pack or traded for is reduced to rubble or countered.
I love this deck.