@pelikanudo Yeah, my friend Adrian Sullivan has been high on that card for years - against control it’s just a hoser and I think whirring for it in resp to a jace 0 activation is INSANE. The dream, but still very possible.
I personally think Alpine Moon and Amulet of Safekeeping are not where we want to be. They are exciting because they are new and low mana cost, but I think they are traps for a couple of reasons.
Alpine Moon is an enchantment, which means it can't be tutored for with Whir and Tez. We already have the tutorable Damping Sphere which hoses tron in the exact same way (with the added bonus of making it difficult for them to dig through their deck with cantrips to find answers). As far as Valakut is concerned, is Witchbane Orb not good enough? Alpine Moon is also red, which I believe is not reliable in this deck, especially if it's needed quickly. Think of all our colourless lands and how often you can't turn mox opal on immediately.
Amulet of Safekeeping is an artifact, which is a good start, but in regards to storm, we already have Damping Sphere, which shuts their game plan down in a similar fashion, PLUS has the added flexibility of being good against Tron, which Amulet is not. Playing the amulet card for storm is basically diluting your answers across the field. We already have Ensnaring Bridge, so creature tokens aren't a problem.
I hate to be a bummer, but I think these cards are just too narrow and we already have tools that address the problems that they solve. They are awesome tools to have added to the modern format arsenal, but I'm not sure they're right for this deck.
Having said this, I don't want to just shut things down, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong. It's never wrong to test something. I just can't see how Damping Sphere isn't better.
As far as Uba Mask and Possessed Portal go... eurgh. I really, really don't like the idea of cards that get stuck in my hand that I can't empty for bridge. Both are very powerful and help in situations that we find difficult. However, it feels like Defense Grid is just better than Uba Mask in the same way that I believe Spellskite is just better than Padeem. PP - 8 mana???? It'd take some serious evidence to convince me that was a good idea. It's like Spine Of Ish Sah - the effect would definitely be amazing in the deck, but the cost is so high it's just absolutely not worth it.
Like I said, I don't want to be the guy that just comes in and takes a dump over everyone's excitement about new cards, but I think it's worth discussing the opposite perspective.
With the rise of KCI, I'm wondering if surgical extraction is a good SB card. But we really have no meaningful interaction with KCI, and as you may have already experienced there is no board state they cannot blow up once they start their engine. Splash damage is it helps with big mana matchups by being able to surgical/ghost quarter.
Surgical in a Chalice of the Void deck seems less than optimal. Chalice is amazing against KCI. As far as I know Chalice on 1 and Sorcerous Spyglass naming EE is a hard lock against their deck (probably needs to be verified) apart from their extremely anemic creature beats. Chalice for 0 significantly slows them down as it's much more difficult for them to combo without Mox Opal. I personally think it's best to lean on Tormod's Crypt for the surgical-type effect, plus Damping Sphere (also stops them going off) to try and assemble the lock.
I've only played against KCI in two matches and it is VERY hard. Mulliganing is everything. I need to do much more testing.
I got to try uba mask against UW control tonight and it was obviously not the card.
Possessed Portal is incredible though. Being able to whir for something that ends the game is where you want to be when a lot of powerful hate is floating around your opp’s deck.
As for Alpine Moon, I would be playing it as a way to slow down tron and valakut with a must-answer while I use my whirs for crucible lock. Witchbane Orb is laughably not good enough in g2 and 3. Valakut is such a tough matchup the creator has run jester’s cap to get the valakuts out of the game.
As for amulet, I just played a match tonight it would have won for me that sphere lost. The fact that it’s a whir target that answers their threats after they are done going off is huge. Otherwise they just get the piece to disrupt your board while they go off.
Ok riffing off my last comment. I just spent a day play-testing against KCI with a mate.
Pre-board, Sorcerous Spyglass on EE and then chalice on 1, plus an Ensnaring bridge are game over.
After sideboard, it becomes apparent that 4 chalice and 4 Sorcerous Spyglass in the 75 are extremely important for this matchup. Chalice already deals with the nature's claim. You also need to have extra SS to name Aether Grid for the lock. Damping Sphere buys you enough time for getting everything together and will often suddenly turn them off with a well-timed whir. That or Witchbane Orb. Ensnaring bridge is vital because they can draw through their entire deck and put on a sudden clock with lots of 3-power dudes.
So as a result of the testing, I'm now confident in saying that the matchup is favourable for us, given a decent amount of experience with it. My friend realised that honestly the best chance KCI has is to try to combo off faster than we can get the lock pieces out, rather than boarding in Nature's Claim and trying to disrupt us. I don't think a majority of KCI players will come to this conclusion without playing the matchup as much as we did.
The difficulty comes in being able to recognise if you need to whir for a lock piece to further our plan vs. whirring for damping sphere to put the brakes on them at a given point. I think this only comes with knowing the KCI combo very well, but that's definitely something that anyone playing this deck can get their head around. It really helped me to spend a good amount of time talking through it all with someone who knows the combo well.
Edit: Post sideboard I ended up settling on:
+2 chalice, + 2 Sorcerous Spyglass +1 Damping Sphere
-3 EE, -1 Grafdigger's, -1 Bottled Cloister
Haven’t had much of a problem against KCI. As others have said, we definitely have the tools to lock them out of the game. Don’t be afraid to mulligan aggressively. I definitely want to see a chalice in my opening hand against them. Speaking of which, I’ve gone back to 4 Chalice mainboard. It seems like Infect is going to be on the rise, which chalice definitely helps with, but really it’s just a card I love seeing in my opening hand against most decks.
I’ve stil been having some issues sign Jeskai Control, and have gone back to Portal in the sideboard, as well as 2 Declaration of Naught. Landing one of those naming Cryptic Command is usually enough to steal the game, provided you can get a spyglass for Teferi. I’ve also been bringing it in against combo decks like Ad Nauseum. It’s a surprisingly versatile card.
Blue Tron has popped up in my local meta as well, and it’s just a nightmare matchup. Portal obviously tends to end the game, but aside from that, it’s extremely tough. Maindeck repeals along with cyclonic rift and counterspells just make for a tough game.
Has anyone tried out trading post? It seems versatile in recurring things since we only run 1 academy ruins, and 4 life vs burn is good. I'm going to test it out and was just wondering if anyone else has any results.
is Uba Mask worth the space against control in general?
will this worth the base space?
@boomforest you say it finally does not worth? which is your plan against Control?
the problem I see with this deck is that we have 0 threats agains control - well you can consider Crucible a threat... as I believe it is my main plan... sad. but I'd like to know solid ideas against control and maybe do something with the base. the hell I've been thinking in adding the uncounterable G Trol!
Come on guys - this is the UNIQUE deck we loose to...
EDIT: An improvement - I believe I've made to the deck is changing the fetch lands to just misty rainforest/polluted deltain this order because Glass to flooded or scalding IS a thing vs control. I am now at fetch blue list
Is there an article or sideboarding guide somewhere? I just took this out for a spin and lost to myself a bunch. Interested in the deck, I just want to know more.
Not from what I've seen online. The special thing about what this deck does is it allows sideboarding to be intuitive. Decks with artifact destruction you bring in skites and jars, control you bring in needle effects for walkers and ways to mitigate cryptic command, aggro you bring in the extra aethergrids to ping dudes. This is all very general of course.
My best advice is get your reps in and really, I mean REALLY learn your local meta. This deck can only win if you have a deep format IQ. Play a stock UR prison list for a while and just learn DO NOT make any changes to the list until you have a comfortable understanding of the deck.(this is me glaring at the trading post comment)
the beautiful thing about magic is that it’s rock paper scissors. We’re hella weak to mainboard counterspells, but you just have to remember game 1 they have many many dead draws. Besides that most marchups are favorable. Which is awesome.
Uba mask can probably be good - I think he just had two perfect draws against what I was doing. posessed portal is definitely good against decks that go bigger. I was just tilted playing two crypric decks in a row - that card had been DOA for a while.
If it stays like this a while I might switch to esper thopter/sword with paraselene and lingering souls in the SB. Either that or the grixis PW control build. That pummels cryptic decks.
@mikemaz the deck doesn’t need drastic innovation. It’s pretty crazily tuned. Watch some videos and spend some time with it before making any drastic swaps. If you’re having trouble with burn sun droplet is going to be better. You just need to play a trading post, tap it to gain 4 and get skullcracked once to realize that big chunks of life gain are a hazard against burn.
Susurrus_mtg the deck’s creator has a new vid up. He’s shaved an EE for another sorcerous spyglass in main and he said he’s considering adding a field of ruin in place of the cascade bluffs.
Why is Oboro, Palace in the Clouds not run? Especially with map it seems like a very worthwhile conclusion to find. It lets hands like Oboro(or map)/colorless source/island still able to cast whir. Is the nonbasic hate more relevant?
Also, sussurus mentioned a Discord channel on his stream. Does anybody know what/where that is?
@S_Valtrix I think it turned into a fetch land when we dropped the darksteel/GQ package. We have a little more wiggle room in the new landbase so I wouldn’t see a problem with running it over an island. We only have 4 colorless lands now though, right?
I thought about adding Oboro to the mana base as well. I love the card and it allows for some next level plays. However, since I have been toying around with the idea of adding Alpine Moon to the sb I figured it would be smarter to run an additional Shivan Reef for some red sources. Tbh I never really agreed with suss regarding Cascade Bluffs in a deck that has Damping Sphere. So far I'm planning on my board looking like this:
1 Damping Sphere
2 Declaration of Naught
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid(1 main)
2 Welding Jar(2 main)
1 Chalice of the Void(2 main)
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Torper Orb
2 Alpine Moon
1 Amulet of Safekeeping
I thought about adding Oboro to the mana base as well. I love the card and it allows for some next level plays. However, since I have been toying around with the idea of adding Alpine Moon to the sb I figured it would be smarter to run an additional Shivan Reef for some red sources. Tbh I never really agreed with suss regarding Cascade Bluffs in a deck that has Damping Sphere. So far I'm planning on my board looking like this:
1 Damping Sphere
2 Declaration of Naught
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid(1 main)
2 Welding Jar(2 main)
1 Chalice of the Void(2 main)
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Torper Orb
2 Alpine Moon
1 Amulet of Safekeeping
I thought about adding Oboro to the mana base as well. I love the card and it allows for some next level plays. However, since I have been toying around with the idea of adding Alpine Moon to the sb I figured it would be smarter to run an additional Shivan Reef for some red sources. Tbh I never really agreed with suss regarding Cascade Bluffs in a deck that has Damping Sphere. So far I'm planning on my board looking like this:
1 Damping Sphere
2 Declaration of Naught
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid(1 main)
2 Welding Jar(2 main)
1 Chalice of the Void(2 main)
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Torper Orb
2 Alpine Moon
1 Amulet of Safekeeping
Watched Hoogland play a pretty cool erayo flip deck. Do you guys have any thought about a tranformational side with erayo, sai and paradoxical outcome? I just don’t see a way to outplay a deck with cryptics and teferi without taking a different angle.
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1 Chalice (3 main)
1 Welding Jar (2 main)
4 Spellskite
1 Damping Sphere
3 Alpine Moon
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Uba Mask
1 Posessed Portal
2 Surgical Extraction
Tron and Valakut are like 40% of my meta and the only things I consistently lose to, so the 3 are maybe a little too tilty.
Alpine Moon is an enchantment, which means it can't be tutored for with Whir and Tez. We already have the tutorable Damping Sphere which hoses tron in the exact same way (with the added bonus of making it difficult for them to dig through their deck with cantrips to find answers). As far as Valakut is concerned, is Witchbane Orb not good enough? Alpine Moon is also red, which I believe is not reliable in this deck, especially if it's needed quickly. Think of all our colourless lands and how often you can't turn mox opal on immediately.
Amulet of Safekeeping is an artifact, which is a good start, but in regards to storm, we already have Damping Sphere, which shuts their game plan down in a similar fashion, PLUS has the added flexibility of being good against Tron, which Amulet is not. Playing the amulet card for storm is basically diluting your answers across the field. We already have Ensnaring Bridge, so creature tokens aren't a problem.
I hate to be a bummer, but I think these cards are just too narrow and we already have tools that address the problems that they solve. They are awesome tools to have added to the modern format arsenal, but I'm not sure they're right for this deck.
Having said this, I don't want to just shut things down, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong. It's never wrong to test something. I just can't see how Damping Sphere isn't better.
As far as Uba Mask and Possessed Portal go... eurgh. I really, really don't like the idea of cards that get stuck in my hand that I can't empty for bridge. Both are very powerful and help in situations that we find difficult. However, it feels like Defense Grid is just better than Uba Mask in the same way that I believe Spellskite is just better than Padeem. PP - 8 mana???? It'd take some serious evidence to convince me that was a good idea. It's like Spine Of Ish Sah - the effect would definitely be amazing in the deck, but the cost is so high it's just absolutely not worth it.
Like I said, I don't want to be the guy that just comes in and takes a dump over everyone's excitement about new cards, but I think it's worth discussing the opposite perspective.
Surgical in a Chalice of the Void deck seems less than optimal. Chalice is amazing against KCI. As far as I know Chalice on 1 and Sorcerous Spyglass naming EE is a hard lock against their deck (probably needs to be verified) apart from their extremely anemic creature beats. Chalice for 0 significantly slows them down as it's much more difficult for them to combo without Mox Opal. I personally think it's best to lean on Tormod's Crypt for the surgical-type effect, plus Damping Sphere (also stops them going off) to try and assemble the lock.
I've only played against KCI in two matches and it is VERY hard. Mulliganing is everything. I need to do much more testing.
Possessed Portal is incredible though. Being able to whir for something that ends the game is where you want to be when a lot of powerful hate is floating around your opp’s deck.
As for Alpine Moon, I would be playing it as a way to slow down tron and valakut with a must-answer while I use my whirs for crucible lock. Witchbane Orb is laughably not good enough in g2 and 3. Valakut is such a tough matchup the creator has run jester’s cap to get the valakuts out of the game.
As for amulet, I just played a match tonight it would have won for me that sphere lost. The fact that it’s a whir target that answers their threats after they are done going off is huge. Otherwise they just get the piece to disrupt your board while they go off.
Pre-board, Sorcerous Spyglass on EE and then chalice on 1, plus an Ensnaring bridge are game over.
After sideboard, it becomes apparent that 4 chalice and 4 Sorcerous Spyglass in the 75 are extremely important for this matchup. Chalice already deals with the nature's claim. You also need to have extra SS to name Aether Grid for the lock. Damping Sphere buys you enough time for getting everything together and will often suddenly turn them off with a well-timed whir. That or Witchbane Orb. Ensnaring bridge is vital because they can draw through their entire deck and put on a sudden clock with lots of 3-power dudes.
So as a result of the testing, I'm now confident in saying that the matchup is favourable for us, given a decent amount of experience with it. My friend realised that honestly the best chance KCI has is to try to combo off faster than we can get the lock pieces out, rather than boarding in Nature's Claim and trying to disrupt us. I don't think a majority of KCI players will come to this conclusion without playing the matchup as much as we did.
The difficulty comes in being able to recognise if you need to whir for a lock piece to further our plan vs. whirring for damping sphere to put the brakes on them at a given point. I think this only comes with knowing the KCI combo very well, but that's definitely something that anyone playing this deck can get their head around. It really helped me to spend a good amount of time talking through it all with someone who knows the combo well.
Edit: Post sideboard I ended up settling on:
+2 chalice, + 2 Sorcerous Spyglass +1 Damping Sphere
-3 EE, -1 Grafdigger's, -1 Bottled Cloister
Haven’t had much of a problem against KCI. As others have said, we definitely have the tools to lock them out of the game. Don’t be afraid to mulligan aggressively. I definitely want to see a chalice in my opening hand against them. Speaking of which, I’ve gone back to 4 Chalice mainboard. It seems like Infect is going to be on the rise, which chalice definitely helps with, but really it’s just a card I love seeing in my opening hand against most decks.
I’ve stil been having some issues sign Jeskai Control, and have gone back to Portal in the sideboard, as well as 2 Declaration of Naught. Landing one of those naming Cryptic Command is usually enough to steal the game, provided you can get a spyglass for Teferi. I’ve also been bringing it in against combo decks like Ad Nauseum. It’s a surprisingly versatile card.
Blue Tron has popped up in my local meta as well, and it’s just a nightmare matchup. Portal obviously tends to end the game, but aside from that, it’s extremely tough. Maindeck repeals along with cyclonic rift and counterspells just make for a tough game.
Conclusions?
is Uba Mask worth the space against control in general?
will this worth the base space?
@boomforest you say it finally does not worth? which is your plan against Control?
the problem I see with this deck is that we have 0 threats agains control - well you can consider Crucible a threat... as I believe it is my main plan... sad. but I'd like to know solid ideas against control and maybe do something with the base. the hell I've been thinking in adding the uncounterable G Trol!
Come on guys - this is the UNIQUE deck we loose to...
EDIT: An improvement - I believe I've made to the deck is changing the fetch lands to just misty rainforest/polluted deltain this order because Glass to flooded or scalding IS a thing vs control. I am now at fetch blue list
My best advice is get your reps in and really, I mean REALLY learn your local meta. This deck can only win if you have a deep format IQ. Play a stock UR prison list for a while and just learn DO NOT make any changes to the list until you have a comfortable understanding of the deck.(this is me glaring at the trading post comment)
Hope this helps. Best of luck to you dude
Uba mask can probably be good - I think he just had two perfect draws against what I was doing. posessed portal is definitely good against decks that go bigger. I was just tilted playing two crypric decks in a row - that card had been DOA for a while.
If it stays like this a while I might switch to esper thopter/sword with paraselene and lingering souls in the SB. Either that or the grixis PW control build. That pummels cryptic decks.
Also, sussurus mentioned a Discord channel on his stream. Does anybody know what/where that is?
1 Damping Sphere
2 Declaration of Naught
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid(1 main)
2 Welding Jar(2 main)
1 Chalice of the Void(2 main)
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Torper Orb
2 Alpine Moon
1 Amulet of Safekeeping
1 Damping Sphere
2 Declaration of Naught
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid(1 main)
2 Welding Jar(2 main)
1 Chalice of the Void(2 main)
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Torper Orb
2 Alpine Moon
1 Amulet of Safekeeping
1 Damping Sphere
2 Declaration of Naught
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid(1 main)
2 Welding Jar(2 main)
1 Chalice of the Void(2 main)
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Torper Orb
2 Alpine Moon
1 Amulet of Safekeeping