Regarding splashes:
When you are considering a splash, always ask yourself if the additional options you gain really outweigh the disadvantages the splash comes with. You need more fetches and shocklands, consequently less basics and utility lands. This means the landbase is weaker to disruption like Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter, is less likely to disrupt our opponents lands via Field of Ruin and causes us to take more damage. Thus we lose percentage points against decks like Ponza, Blue Moon, Death n Taxes, Big Mana decks (Tron, Scapeshift/Titanshift) and super fast aggro like Burn and Affinity.
If I still were to splash a color it would be blue since it can offset the fundamental weakness of Orzhov decks, card selection and card draw. Serum Visions, Esper Charm, Search for Azcanta and Snapcaster Mage come to mind. Blue also provides sideboard answers to noncreature-combo decks in Geist of Saint Traft (fast and difficult to remove clock), Negate and Dispel (discard is useless against topdecks).
The thing is that night's whisper only helps against midrange and control decks and is a one time only ocurrence. With Arguel's you at least have a Greed-like card that can draw you several cards. Also our lifelink is pretty strong in the late game. The night's whisper slot isn't a slot that can deal with either combo or aggro decks, and with that in mind you would rather have Arguel's Blood fast in your 75 to have a better card draw.
Trust me i've tested it, once you have Gideon of the trials and Arguel's fast blood you can have insane ramp and still be protected by the gideon emblem. You pick don't loose steam against UW control or even jeskai (altough you should be careful of the bolts).
So I took the core of this deck and splashed a play set of nahiri the harbinger one emrakul and one dreadbore and I'm happy with it but only running two field of ruin at the moment
Thoughts on one of the new spoiled cards today. We've all agreed card advantage is a problem. This is a sort of slightly worse ancient stirrings for us. board the weatherlight
It's not "slightly worse", it's quite a lot worse: you can't choose lands, or your board wipes, and it costs 2. It also only hits Planeswalkers in the deck as it exists currently.
I was excited to use it in this deck, but I think it won't work.
Edit: Also, you can tutor up whichever Plneswalker you want for 3 mana (Call the Gatewatch), or 5 mana with a 4/4 body attached to it (Thalia’s Lancers), or you can put 2 on the battlefield if you get lucky: Deploy the Gatewatch.
Any thoughts on Yawgmoth's Vile Offering? Kinda pricy at 5cmc but does some interesting things. Lets us recur our own PW's or lets us hit our opponents graveyards for their best creature/pw while letting us remove a creature or opposing PW. Like I said its expensive at 5 but does provide a 2 for 1 in its best situation and since it has 2 targets doesn't get blow out by a removal spell or GY exile effect. Probably not worth it but something to talk about.
Any thoughts on Yawgmoth's Vile Offering? Kinda pricy at 5cmc but does some interesting things. Lets us recur our own PW's or lets us hit our opponents graveyards for their best creature/pw while letting us remove a creature or opposing PW. Like I said its expensive at 5 but does provide a 2 for 1 in its best situation and since it has 2 targets doesn't get blow out by a removal spell or GY exile effect. Probably not worth it but something to talk about.
I think it MAY be worth it as a 1-of slot in the mainboard, since the upside is so high. That said, you need to have a Planeswalker (or Legendary creature, but we don't run those) in play to cast it. That's a HUGE requirement to cast a spell. If you untap with a Planeswalker and 5 mana open, you are probably already ahead.
While the potential for a 2 for 1 is there, I think it will far too often be a card that you can't cast, wishing it would be a Wrath instead. EDIT: Yes, I actually convinced myself if was a trap between the first and last line of my message!
Yawgmoth's Vile Offering Does look super sweet but i think it's payoff isn't as good for it's cost, also you need a planeswalker on board, which it's a constriction that you can't afford to have as a dead card in modeern.
Has anyone tried phyrexian arena as a 1 or two of for card advantage?
I think that Phyrexian Arena is too slow for what we are trying to do here, at least the Gideon planeswalker Build. We are trying to control the board until turn 4 or 5 when you can cast your big gideons and start swinging.
Has anyone given any thoughts to Demonlord Belzenlok? it's a big finisher that also pulls you ahead in the game with their card draw. With our high cost sorceries if we are lucky we can have an ancestral vision-like effect attached to a big body.
Hi everyone. I’ve been playing a stockish list for the past few weeks at fnm and comparable events. My results have been what one would expect from the deck; good vs fair and not so good vs unfair.
The deck is a bunch of fun. My only complaints are the ones that have been brought up by others in that the deck lacks draw and is too slow to beat Tron/combo reliably and lacks card draw/fixing to dig for answers.
I humbly submit the following list as a way to deal with some of the shortcomings. It cuts the more expensive walkers and replaces them with lili of the veil and bloodghast as a way of applying pressure and control earlier and from different angles as well. Bloodghast doubles as a recurring threat that’s good at breaking stalemates after a wrath. Wall of omens serves as a source of card draw that cycles in late game and is strong in the early turns and forces opponents to extend into a sweeper. Finally, I’ve dumped all my colorless land slots into field of ruins as a way of combating Tron and mana fixing.
I’m not particularly sure about the sideboard as it’s still stockish.
I’ve had good results goldfishing and will be playing it this evening but would love to have comments and criticism.
Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Match one was against rg land destruction. He had a nut draw in game one (t2 blood moon into t2 stone rain) and a solid draw in game two (t3 bloodbraid into tracker, t4 inferno titan). I could have drawn a sweeper to turn game two around but was dead to anything else. Cutting basics hurt this matchup. I chose to scoop early in g1 to conceal information rather than attempt to draw the five remaining basics.
Gmatch two was against coco allies. Game one had me stabilize at one and settle the wreckage his board. He cocoed into gas and finished the game. Game two and three played out similarly with sweepers, Liliana and bloodghast put in lots of work. Bloodghast was great for pressuring his ajani and preventing it from really doing anything besides a single use to give flying. Wall of omens was also very good in this game as a blocker and card draw.
Match three was against 4c jund. I won game one on the back of bloodghast while removing OP’s creatures. A Gideon let me swing for lethal. I was mana screwed in g2 and only got to three lands for bontu’s last reckoning before being beaten out by creatures. Game three was competitive until I drew lands and inqui-seizes for 7 turns in the face of a dark confidant and ever growing board. Gideon of the trials, wall of omens and spirit tokens let me stay in the game until I drew a sweeper. A Gideon emblem prevented me from losing as we went to turns and the game ended in a draw.
In closing, the changes made helped where I wanted them to help. Bloodghast was terrific to discard to lilis or opposing discard effects and allowed me to apply pressure in circumstances where it would not have otherwise been possible. Wall of omens was great to see at any point and kept me in games where I would have otherwise gone to zero or kept me in games I lost a turn or two longer.
This is not to say that these changes are perfect. The stock list is much more resilient to blood moon in both having more basics and being less thirsty for [m]b[/m]. Also it’s possible the draw from night’s whisper or read the bones would have been superior. If nothing else, it’s something to think about.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Hey guys, new to thread. Just made the deck yesterday, I can't wait to give it a spin.
I know we've been hunting for a card advantage/filtering engine that the deck sorely lacks. Has anyone considered Smuggler's Copter. It might seem a bit strange but between the Lingering Souls , Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Sorin, Solemn Visitor, and Westvale Abbey (if you're running it) there shouldn't be much of an issue crewing it. It survives our Wrath effects and crucially fits into the weakest slot on our curve; 2 mana. I haven't play tested the deck yet but I think it's at least worth considering.
This suggestion is definitely more of a stretch than Smuggler's Copter but has anyone tried out Demonic Rising? I doubt anyone even knows it exists but in conjunction with our planeswalkers turning to creatures or Shambling Vent it become a ridiculously resilient threat generator. I realize the problem is that it may be a dead draw but its essentially a 5/5 or two 5/5 fliers which can be continuously regenerated with almost no effort. We would just play the way we normally do.
I have been playing with Smuggler's Copter alot in Deadguy Ale (BW Midrange) in conjunction with Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler, Bloodghast, Lingering Souls and more discard outlets (Lili and Collective Brutality). I love this card as it provides a clock and gives card selection, traits the Orzhov colors really lack. I see a few problems running it in this deck though:
1. You need enough creatures to reliably crew it. In Deadguy Ale I had 15 sources that could do so on turn 3. Without a crew target, it's just a 2 mana do nothing, so you really want to avoid that. If you want to play it, I think adding something like Bitterblossom is mandatory.
2. Copter can be bolted, pushed, pathed, etc...One of the strengths of BW control is its lack of creatures that are worth firing a spot removal for, so they usually become dead cards in our opponent's hand. Prepare for your Copter to die alot since it will probably the only real target (besides Path on Gideons).
3. Part of what makes Copter so good is the potential to abuse the looting effect by discarding cards like Lingering Souls and Bloodghast. If you only use it as a filter effect it's still reasonable, but it gets great if used as a card advantage tool. Also, it is quite common to discard some lands with Looter Scooter, so you should probably lower your curve a little if you want to play him.
This may sound discouraging but it certainly is worth testing, just adjust your deck a little and see how it goes!
Hey everyone! Welcome to all the new members and thank you all for continuing to post on the thread! I’m loving the conversations and continued insightful comments. The discussions have been well discussed and aren’t just players back talking each other, which is always a welcome sight. With the Dominaria pre-release going down this weekend, I’m hoping to really delve into the cards and put out a quick review on those that may be worth a look. If you have any suggestions, please let me know!
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Modern Decks: UWAzorius Titan ControlUW BWOrzhov ControlBW
The only new card I will play for sure is Damping Sphere in my sideboard. Unfortunately I think every other card mentioned so far isn't quite there, either being too narrow or too low powerwise. I'm tempted to give History of Benalia a shot as a 2-off since it's a nice clock with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar for a potential 17 damage swing on turn 5, but most of the time, this will only be a dream scenario.
Todd Stevens ran a BW Walkers list to a 5-0 finish (10-2-0 in games) last night. No clip up on Twitch yet. I didn't get a screenshot the list he ran.
After the league he mapped out what he'd do to change the deck (IIRC it was removing a Westvale Abbey, removing a Shambling Vent, and adding 2 Concealed Courtyard to the maindeck. The rest of the changes were to the sideboard (removed Leyline of Sanctity to make room for 2 Damping Sphere and a Gideon's Intervention). Here's the post-league modified list:
I have a screenshot but it’s with my phone and not the best quality. I played an almost identical list last night and wasn’t particularly impressed. I missed wall of omens badly. The first rule of control decks is preserve your life total and wall does that well. I’m trying a 3/1 split with wall and arguel’s blood fast.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
May I suggest a quick edit to the sideboard guide, Grafdigger's Cage does nothing against Living End because creatures enter the battlefield from exile not the graveyard. Cheers.
I haven't playtested it yet. But the more and more I think about things. I think the new Karn is the card engine we want!
I'm not sure but isn't Ob Nixilis, Pyhrexian Arena, Night's Whisper and Arguels Blood Fast just better?
With Karn the opponent can decide with card you get and he sees both.
On the other side Karn has a high loyality and can produce tokens (which are not strong in our deck)
Also the 4 cmc slot is quite filled by wraths and other walkers
I agree. Karn's first two abilities are not that strong assuming it will take two activations before you get a card you actually want. Against grindy midrange and control matchups I would much rather draw any of the cards mentioned above. I am currently testing 2 Night's Whisper and 1 Phyrexian Arena (+3 Wall of Omens) as my draw engine. If the lifeloss is a problem, you probably do not want Karn in the given matchup either.
I don’t think Karn is anything we want. The floor gives minor card advantage at the cost negative card selection. Furthermore, those cards are lost for good should Karn be destroyed.
Karn tokens are also not particularly good (for us) because we don’t generally run artifacts. The fact that token creation is a tick down ability hurts it further.
Should we be ahead on board, either four cmc Sorin is just a better way to close the door faster.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
So every time I’ve drawn arguel’s blood fast I’ve wished it was something else. And it requires 2bb and two life to make that happen. I think it should just be something else. Night whisper and read the bones are the obvious answers with underworld connections and phyrexian arena being slightly less obvious. Does anyone have thoughts on oathvof lili? It’s immediate removal that also can apply pressure later on.
Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
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When you are considering a splash, always ask yourself if the additional options you gain really outweigh the disadvantages the splash comes with. You need more fetches and shocklands, consequently less basics and utility lands. This means the landbase is weaker to disruption like Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter, is less likely to disrupt our opponents lands via Field of Ruin and causes us to take more damage. Thus we lose percentage points against decks like Ponza, Blue Moon, Death n Taxes, Big Mana decks (Tron, Scapeshift/Titanshift) and super fast aggro like Burn and Affinity.
If I still were to splash a color it would be blue since it can offset the fundamental weakness of Orzhov decks, card selection and card draw. Serum Visions, Esper Charm, Search for Azcanta and Snapcaster Mage come to mind. Blue also provides sideboard answers to noncreature-combo decks in Geist of Saint Traft (fast and difficult to remove clock), Negate and Dispel (discard is useless against topdecks).
Trust me i've tested it, once you have Gideon of the trials and Arguel's fast blood you can have insane ramp and still be protected by the gideon emblem. You pick don't loose steam against UW control or even jeskai (altough you should be careful of the bolts).
I encourage to test this card
I think it does? Can someone chime in on this one?
I was excited to use it in this deck, but I think it won't work.
Edit: Also, you can tutor up whichever Plneswalker you want for 3 mana (Call the Gatewatch), or 5 mana with a 4/4 body attached to it (Thalia’s Lancers), or you can put 2 on the battlefield if you get lucky: Deploy the Gatewatch.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
I think it MAY be worth it as a 1-of slot in the mainboard, since the upside is so high. That said, you need to have a Planeswalker (or Legendary creature, but we don't run those) in play to cast it. That's a HUGE requirement to cast a spell. If you untap with a Planeswalker and 5 mana open, you are probably already ahead.
While the potential for a 2 for 1 is there, I think it will far too often be a card that you can't cast, wishing it would be a Wrath instead. EDIT: Yes, I actually convinced myself if was a trap between the first and last line of my message!
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
I think that Phyrexian Arena is too slow for what we are trying to do here, at least the Gideon planeswalker Build. We are trying to control the board until turn 4 or 5 when you can cast your big gideons and start swinging.
Has anyone given any thoughts to Demonlord Belzenlok? it's a big finisher that also pulls you ahead in the game with their card draw. With our high cost sorceries if we are lucky we can have an ancestral vision-like effect attached to a big body.
The deck is a bunch of fun. My only complaints are the ones that have been brought up by others in that the deck lacks draw and is too slow to beat Tron/combo reliably and lacks card draw/fixing to dig for answers.
I humbly submit the following list as a way to deal with some of the shortcomings. It cuts the more expensive walkers and replaces them with lili of the veil and bloodghast as a way of applying pressure and control earlier and from different angles as well. Bloodghast doubles as a recurring threat that’s good at breaking stalemates after a wrath. Wall of omens serves as a source of card draw that cycles in late game and is strong in the early turns and forces opponents to extend into a sweeper. Finally, I’ve dumped all my colorless land slots into field of ruins as a way of combating Tron and mana fixing.
I’m not particularly sure about the sideboard as it’s still stockish.
I’ve had good results goldfishing and will be playing it this evening but would love to have comments and criticism.
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Collective Brutality
2x Concealed Courtyard
1x Damnation
1x Day of Judgment
3x Fatal Push
2x Fetid Heath
4x Field of Ruin
2x Gideon of the Trials
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Godless Shrine
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Lingering Souls
4x Marsh Flats
3x Path to Exile
3x Plains
1x Settle the Wreckage
3x Shambling Vent
3x Swamp
3x Thoughtseize
2x Wall of Omens
1x Wrath of God
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Extirpate
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Surgical Extraction
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Gmatch two was against coco allies. Game one had me stabilize at one and settle the wreckage his board. He cocoed into gas and finished the game. Game two and three played out similarly with sweepers, Liliana and bloodghast put in lots of work. Bloodghast was great for pressuring his ajani and preventing it from really doing anything besides a single use to give flying. Wall of omens was also very good in this game as a blocker and card draw.
Match three was against 4c jund. I won game one on the back of bloodghast while removing OP’s creatures. A Gideon let me swing for lethal. I was mana screwed in g2 and only got to three lands for bontu’s last reckoning before being beaten out by creatures. Game three was competitive until I drew lands and inqui-seizes for 7 turns in the face of a dark confidant and ever growing board. Gideon of the trials, wall of omens and spirit tokens let me stay in the game until I drew a sweeper. A Gideon emblem prevented me from losing as we went to turns and the game ended in a draw.
In closing, the changes made helped where I wanted them to help. Bloodghast was terrific to discard to lilis or opposing discard effects and allowed me to apply pressure in circumstances where it would not have otherwise been possible. Wall of omens was great to see at any point and kept me in games where I would have otherwise gone to zero or kept me in games I lost a turn or two longer.
This is not to say that these changes are perfect. The stock list is much more resilient to blood moon in both having more basics and being less thirsty for [m]b[/m]. Also it’s possible the draw from night’s whisper or read the bones would have been superior. If nothing else, it’s something to think about.
I know we've been hunting for a card advantage/filtering engine that the deck sorely lacks. Has anyone considered Smuggler's Copter. It might seem a bit strange but between the Lingering Souls , Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Sorin, Solemn Visitor, and Westvale Abbey (if you're running it) there shouldn't be much of an issue crewing it. It survives our Wrath effects and crucially fits into the weakest slot on our curve; 2 mana. I haven't play tested the deck yet but I think it's at least worth considering.
This suggestion is definitely more of a stretch than Smuggler's Copter but has anyone tried out Demonic Rising? I doubt anyone even knows it exists but in conjunction with our planeswalkers turning to creatures or Shambling Vent it become a ridiculously resilient threat generator. I realize the problem is that it may be a dead draw but its essentially a 5/5 or two 5/5 fliers which can be continuously regenerated with almost no effort. We would just play the way we normally do.
1. You need enough creatures to reliably crew it. In Deadguy Ale I had 15 sources that could do so on turn 3. Without a crew target, it's just a 2 mana do nothing, so you really want to avoid that. If you want to play it, I think adding something like Bitterblossom is mandatory.
2. Copter can be bolted, pushed, pathed, etc...One of the strengths of BW control is its lack of creatures that are worth firing a spot removal for, so they usually become dead cards in our opponent's hand. Prepare for your Copter to die alot since it will probably the only real target (besides Path on Gideons).
3. Part of what makes Copter so good is the potential to abuse the looting effect by discarding cards like Lingering Souls and Bloodghast. If you only use it as a filter effect it's still reasonable, but it gets great if used as a card advantage tool. Also, it is quite common to discard some lands with Looter Scooter, so you should probably lower your curve a little if you want to play him.
This may sound discouraging but it certainly is worth testing, just adjust your deck a little and see how it goes!
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
After the league he mapped out what he'd do to change the deck (IIRC it was removing a Westvale Abbey, removing a Shambling Vent, and adding 2 Concealed Courtyard to the maindeck. The rest of the changes were to the sideboard (removed Leyline of Sanctity to make room for 2 Damping Sphere and a Gideon's Intervention). Here's the post-league modified list:
2 Gideon Jura
3 Gideon of the Trials
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Sorceries
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
2 Wrath of God
Instants
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
Lands
2 Concealed Courtyard
4 Field of Ruin
2 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
5 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Collective Brutality
2 Damping Sphere
1 Disenchant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gideon's Intervention
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
BWCBW Eldrazi ProcessorCWB
BW BW Tokens
BW Orzhov Control
I agree. Karn's first two abilities are not that strong assuming it will take two activations before you get a card you actually want. Against grindy midrange and control matchups I would much rather draw any of the cards mentioned above. I am currently testing 2 Night's Whisper and 1 Phyrexian Arena (+3 Wall of Omens) as my draw engine. If the lifeloss is a problem, you probably do not want Karn in the given matchup either.
Karn tokens are also not particularly good (for us) because we don’t generally run artifacts. The fact that token creation is a tick down ability hurts it further.
Should we be ahead on board, either four cmc Sorin is just a better way to close the door faster.
oath of Liliana