Copter's are still working fine, and dryad arbor is a must for them. It's funny how only after playing enough with this i'm ready to admit what the posts at the very beginning said: no 3-drops. It may be my playstyle too, and there are games where i'm at 4 lands, but more often i had beast within in hand with 2 lands for the whole game. swan song does not appel to me. giving a flying blocker to opponent, no way. relic of progenitus has been okay, mainly for the upside of cycling. I still have to remember to switch the copters out when i see colaghan's command, as its way too efficient against them.
The island is probably gonna change for another fetch, but so far two forests have worked. I'm taking this to the next fnm and hope to do as few mistakes as possible. Like u said brainpipe, i have mostly kept the one-landers for now, and it has been okay.
I actually just decided to try putting one beast within back in the deck. I feel like if I don't get 3 lands then that sucks, but I do like it as a catch all. And I do like it when I get flooded so I can use it on one of my lands if I have to. Just having the one in there to kill a chalice has helped enough that I hesitate to remove it.
I decided to buy this deck on MTGO... and make an MTGO account for the first time, just so I can try and experiment with this deck more than once a week at FNM. (side note: It took me a while to figure out how to stack the pongify effects correctly and messed up a lot of games-- heh)
I tried Izzet Charm a good bit, and I am still questioning if I want any in the deck at all. I find all the modes are good, but having the mana open to cast it is often to hard for this deck. I think maybe a 1 of is not bad in place of a second spell pierce.
I'm also not sold on 8 pongify and I think I will cut it down to 6 or 7 of them in the deck to make room for something else.
The one card that has been surprising me online has been remand. I used it a lot when I was playing the Simic version of the deck. And sometimes its pretty mediocre given all the one drops in the format. But for some reason, it has been working out for me online at least.
I also think, at this point, I am sold on the same creature package you have N_Trauman. And I have been popping smuggler's copter in and out of the deck and generally quite like 2 of them. I feel like just the flying helps prevent your board from stalling out a lot.
Ha, u are right, and i probably end up trying beast within again in future. So far i haven't liked the two-mana counters but then again, i've lost my fair share..so remand sounds good too. (nostalgic kitchen player in me itches to put some power conduits in the deck but i try to stomp the urge and concentrate on winning something..)
I actually have the deck in paper, and as i don't really have money to spend on magic online (and furthermore it feels bad to pay for the cards twice) i have tried it in xmage. It has been really good for learning to stack, and i'm sure the m-online is better (more competitive and less bugged), so please tell how it goes there!
Ha, u are right, and i probably end up trying beast within again in future. So far i haven't liked the two-mana counters but then again, i've lost my fair share..so remand sounds good too. (nostalgic kitchen player in me itches to put some power conduits in the deck but i try to stomp the urge and concentrate on winning something..)
I actually have the deck in paper, and as i don't really have money to spend on magic online (and furthermore it feels bad to pay for the cards twice) i have tried it in xmage. It has been really good for learning to stack, and i'm sure the m-online is better (more competitive and less bugged), so please tell how it goes there!
I've basically made a commitment to trying out any halfway decent Temur deck in Modern, and doing that is a lot cheaper on MTGO. Even though I have this deck in paper already, it cost basically as much as a single Misty Rainforest in paper to make this deck online. And I am currently making Bring to Light Scapeshift on there as well, so some of the more expensive cards in this deck(ie Lands) will carry over. The bulk of this deck on MTGO is like maybe 20 bucks. I think I bought a dryad arbor for 22 cents online lol.
So yeah, just having opponents at the ready to play in some competitive environment should help me hone changes for the deck. And after a few months of tinkering with it, I see the core of the deck is pretty similar to the one posted by the creator of the deck in this thread.
Land
I think 19 lands, including the Dryad Arbor seems about right. I think at least 9 Fetch lands is pretty required (you can probably save 50 bucks and forgo a second Misty Rainforest without seeing a drop in performance. 8 Fetches is workable, but you can feel the difference a bit in practice. I think the land count can bump up to 20 if we find some three drops that compliment the deck enough though. In which case, I'd add a 4th Botanical Sanctum. I don't think there is any room for non-green mana sources though.
Creatures
This package is pretty much the core of the entire deck. I don't see any reason to take out anything listed here. While Avatar of the resolute feels great to slam down, I feel like 4 has not worked out well for me. You pretty much never want to see more than 2 in a game, and you generally only want to have to play 1 to close the game out. Unlike Strangleroot geist, avatar is too slow to run a full clip of. Narnam Renegade has proved itself many times over. He is perfect at what the deck needs. He costs one, he will pump your evolve creatures on turn 2 with or without revolt, and he has deathtouch for creatures that halt your board. Getting revolt on the turn you need it is where the extra fetches actually seem to be the most noticeable for me.
Spells
My recent consideration is about how many Pongify effects are required for this deck, but Obviously 4 are a given, and 4 Lightning Bolt is worth the red splash on its own. I'm currently running 2x Rapid Hybridization and 1x Beast Within. But I could easily see myself cutting those three cards in the future to make room for something more impactful, as I find myself flooded with the effect and lacking targets fairly often.
Flex Cards
So this core leaves about 10 flex cards to flesh out the rest of the deck. And people have listed tons of great options in this thread already. I basically wanted to post this as my take on where the floor is for the deck to not cut below. I recommend playing something else entirely once you start cutting any of these. Obviously you can add more Pongify effects, counter magic, bounces, etc. But my current take is that the deck loses steam very quickly, or it never goes off at all with too much frequency. And this is the space we have to improve that consistency.
Sideboard
This is all dependent upon your local meta, but I figure 3x Ancient Grudge for artifact hate and at least 3x Life Goes On are required if you think you will see any burn decks.
For the most part i agree with u brainpipe . The only point of contention is the pongify effects. I've been playing 7 and many times missing the 8th, so i probably go to the amount the starter of this thread suggested.
Last week i went to fnm with this but made so many mistakes that no results to mention. However, i had one pyroclasm in the SB and liked it. even when my creatures would not survive it i was able to fire it after attacking to swipe the board. Maybe only a one-of.
Oh boy, I love this deck. I picked it up early last year and tweaked and tuned it a lot to a point where I think it's pretty good. Not a high tier deck by any means but something I have gone 3-1 with many times at the LGS. It's going to be fairly different from what you guys have been posting but I'll explain all the card choices. To start, here's the deck:
In general, the deck is a tempo-aggro deck when playing. You have a ton of combat tricks and ways to push through damage, it's just about getting power on to the board as fast as possible. You're looking to lead with an evolve guy, then just play haste dudes to grow them.
Creatures: Goblin Guide - The best aggro creature out there. Sometimes you play 3 of them by turn 2 and win. Usually it is just a good follow up to some evolve dudes that lets you swing in for ~4 on turn 2 pretty consistently. You also get to see what's coming from your opponent's deck. Free info is always helpful for the aggro player. Hellspark Elemental - 3 hasty damage on a body that hits play twice. Multiple Evolve triggers and a great target for your Hybridization. Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Probably the worst creature in the deck but I've won games off her so I like the 2-of. She works well with Rancor on the Evolve guys and she puts a 2/1 into play pretty easily which also bumps late draw Evolve guys. She also wears Rancor really well. Avatar of the Resolute - He got axed for Hellspark. I found that he often wasn't closing out games and was rarely bigger than a 3/2 or 4/3 anyways. He only hits play once and doesn't really impact the board as much as I was wanting when playing him originally. Narnam Renegade - I didn't care for the inconsistency of her if I didn't have a fetch to play on turn 2. Like, it forced weaker lines to get a really mild upside. I swapped it out for Goblin Guide and never really looked back.
Spells: Rapid Hybridization - I had a few too many games of sitting with a couple Pongify in-hand and no creatures to target. The effect is the core of the deck but 8 was way too many. There's probably an argument to be made for playing 5-6 but 4 is enough to see one a game and have a good "got'em" moment. Rancor - I was having trouble with evasion and boards getting gummed up. Rancor allowed the deck to slap Trample on something and forces a lot of bad blocks on to the opponent with no real downside. Like, lets say I have a 2/3 Raptor, a 2/2 Guide, and a 3/1 Young Wolf holding a Rancor. Which one are they supposed to kill? It pulls removal from your main damage sources by making something else a more urgent threat. Even targeting a garbage creature with it forces opponents to consider wasting removal to get rid of the Rancor. It's a really versatile card and I've gotten a ton of mileage from it. Also, sometimes you draw 3 and just get there with a 6/1 Raptor. Vapor Snag - I honestly don't remember if this was in the stock list but it's been an all-star for me. The 1 damage is usually relevant and being able to keep the board clear for a turn is typically enough to push a game in your favor. It also works really well with Rancor as you can boop the blocker and Trample all the damage through. If you play smart, it's a really strong tool. You can also hit your own guys (like Hellspark) for additional Evolve triggers.
Lands: Fetches - I wouldn't recommend less than 9 fetches and they all have to fetch Green. The deck won't function if you can't hit double Green. Generally I try to hit a G/R dual first, then a G/U, followed by a second G/R. Being able to Unearth and Bolt in the same turn happens more often than needing to Hybridize and Snag in the same turn. However, Raptor always takes precedence. So if it's in my opener, I'm playing it turn 1. 18 lands - This is probably cutting it too close but as a player I'd rather be stuck on 2 and only playing 1-2 spells a turn rather than flooding out. 19 is fine but I wouldn't go higher than that. The deck curves at 2. Having 3 mana is a nice luxury but you get a ton of mileage from your cards. Playing smart goes a long way towards making the most of being a little choked on mana.
The main downside to the deck is that it does a pretty good job of killing itself getting the mana to work. The Burn match up is really rough but Life Goes On helps a fair bit there. It preys on metas full of control/combo decks and Tron. It can put an insane clock into play very fast. Uninterrupted it can win on turn 3 but turn 4 is more common. Against fair/midrange decks, it's alright. Discard heavy hands from the opponent are hard because you'll lose steam but removal heavy hands are generally not a problem. Rest in Peace out of a sideboard hurts a lot but you can play through it. Blood Moon is usually a death sentence unless you happen to draw a very red heavy hand. I think I've only won once after having it cast against me. Either way, sitting on Natural State helps.
Anyways, that's a large info dump... I really enjoy playing this deck and I stand behind the changes I've made to it. If there's anything you guys would like me to elaborate on, I'd be happy to. Thanks for taking the time to read through all of that. Haha.
I kind of like Hellspark Elemental. Hitting Kari Zev's monkey token or your Hellsparks with Pongify seems pretty good to me.
I don't know how I feel about Goblin Guide in this deck. He is a pretty amazing card on his own for sure though, so he doesn't exactly seem like a bad fit to me.
Haste was the big sell for me. His ability to trigger Evolve on both creatures for 1 mana is really nice. Like I said in the big post, Narnam Renegade has some pretty specific hoops to jump through to be decent but on top of that it felt lackluster in multiples when I was originally playtesting the stock list. Guide never really feels bad. For example:
That sort of a hand is fairly normal but definitely on the ideal side of things. Having Narnam there wouldn't change the number of triggers and actually puts you back 2 damage by turn 3. For an aggro deck, Guide does what aggro does but also fits what is going on thematically well enough to make the inclusion reasonable.
on paper it should be very fun and pretty fast... i'm not sure about spark elemental but i don't like the other options (like young wolf or goblin guide)
Seems to me this is a matter of taste and playstyle, and those decks with lots of red go to the burnish side. I like the original idea of dumping power to the board turns 1 and 2, and then keeping interaction up. Tho there definitely s'd be better interaction, any sort of plaxmanta with simic charm effect w'd be welcome. sidisi's faithful is too lame on the attack imo but in the right direction.
Heres my current build, not a lot of red, and many games i don't even fetch for the stomping ground. Burn and UW-control are mostly favorable mu's and i really like it. Used to get floored by both
I wonder if its worth it to splash R only for bolts, pyroclasm and grudge, especially if there are similar spells in the simic color combination (e.g. grudge can be substituted by natural state).
The third color comes at a price in terms of life loss and consistency, and i wonder if it's worth it.
Here's a take on UG evolve. I switched Young wolf with Rhonas because he is immune to our pongify (AKA U: create a 3/3 token)
The aim is to go a little bigger, since our creatures struggle to go beyond 3/3
Haste was the big sell for me. His ability to trigger Evolve on both creatures for 1 mana is really nice. Like I said in the big post, Narnam Renegade has some pretty specific hoops to jump through to be decent but on top of that it felt lackluster in multiples when I was originally playtesting the stock list. Guide never really feels bad. For example:
That sort of a hand is fairly normal but definitely on the ideal side of things. Having Narnam there wouldn't change the number of triggers and actually puts you back 2 damage by turn 3. For an aggro deck, Guide does what aggro does but also fits what is going on thematically well enough to make the inclusion reasonable.
I tend to play this deck as an aggro tempo deck rather than a full aggro deck. I have liked running counters with it so far. Your list is definitely more aggressive, but it makes me wonder if you should just play a higher tier aggro deck instead of this one.
Or, conversely, is playing this deck like a tempo deck a bigger mistake and does it run better as a full aggro deck?
Makes me want to try your version some to see how it feels.
I'm not a person to play a top tier anything. Figuring out what the most optimal meta call to fill the last flex spot in a known archetype doesn't appeal to me like trying to make a pile of oddball cards win games. Haha.
I definitely agree that my list is more aggressive than the original. Though I don't think it is less of a tempo deck than the original but more so plays on a different axis than the original deck's intent. The original list felt like it was built around trying to make Avatar of the Resolute really big because its fun. Which is fine. Though in my opinion, the power of the deck wasn't playing a 2cmc 6/5 on turn 3 but in it's ability to blank a lot of interaction as well as pump out 3-5 "Wild Nacatl"-type threats by turn 3. So by cutting Avatar and moving away from the +1/+1 theme the deck became more streamlined towards an aggressive end with an emphasis on Evolve and repeating ETB creatures (basically trying to consistently generate 1 mana 3/3s).
The tempo aspect is definitely still there. You want your opponent to spend their mana on spells that you blank with a bunch of 1cmc spells (Hybridizing a creature in response to a Path, Snagging a 3/4 'Goyf, etc.). The main difference is that you can apply more pressure earlier on. Giving your tempo plays more weight because the clock is that much shorter for your opponent. Turn 1 and 2 are going to be the safest time to get threats in to play. Then you're looking to ride out turn 3 and 4 with your tempo spells or overloading on creature threats. Banking on a bit of reach to close out games if the game runs longer than that. Which is generally what tempo decks are looking to do.
In my experience avatar of the resolute usually dies the second its on the battlefield, and the value comes from evolving others. Of course it's nice to have MB answer to lingering souls as well. To me the core of the deck is 8x evolvers, 8x pongify and 8x undying, and the rest is negotiable. I think i'd be willing to make more changes if more meaningful interaction was available. As it is, narnam renegade is effective 'must kill' blocker.
Red splash has served me well. ancient grudge is waaay better than any sort of 1-mana substitute that's powerless to combat chalice and more efficient than any 2-mana alternative. Haste is a good point tho, just haven't found the right creature to my taste. pyroclasm is definitely just a 1-of for now, so it doesn't effect the splash. It c'd just as well be second echoing truth or what not.
I'm not a person to play a top tier anything. Figuring out what the most optimal meta call to fill the last flex spot in a known archetype doesn't appeal to me like trying to make a pile of oddball cards win games. Haha.
I definitely agree that my list is more aggressive than the original. Though I don't think it is less of a tempo deck than the original but more so plays on a different axis than the original deck's intent. The original list felt like it was built around trying to make Avatar of the Resolute really big because its fun. Which is fine. Though in my opinion, the power of the deck wasn't playing a 2cmc 6/5 on turn 3 but in it's ability to blank a lot of interaction as well as pump out 3-5 "Wild Nacatl"-type threats by turn 3. So by cutting Avatar and moving away from the +1/+1 theme the deck became more streamlined towards an aggressive end with an emphasis on Evolve and repeating ETB creatures (basically trying to consistently generate 1 mana 3/3s).
The tempo aspect is definitely still there. You want your opponent to spend their mana on spells that you blank with a bunch of 1cmc spells (Hybridizing a creature in response to a Path, Snagging a 3/4 'Goyf, etc.). The main difference is that you can apply more pressure earlier on. Giving your tempo plays more weight because the clock is that much shorter for your opponent. Turn 1 and 2 are going to be the safest time to get threats in to play. Then you're looking to ride out turn 3 and 4 with your tempo spells or overloading on creature threats. Banking on a bit of reach to close out games if the game runs longer than that. Which is generally what tempo decks are looking to do.
I feel like Avatar isn't really the focus of the original list. He just rounds off the top end of the evolve triggers and synergizes with all the counters well. The focus of the to me at least has been put 7-9 power on the board on turn 2 and hope to finish the game with bolts and counters on turn 4.
but I am still interested in trying out your version of the list at some point. Currently I feel like this deck either burns out too early, or never really goes off. So I've been trying to figure out anything to make it more consistent.
In my experience avatar of the resolute usually dies the second its on the battlefield, and the value comes from evolving others. Of course it's nice to have MB answer to lingering souls as well. To me the core of the deck is 8x evolvers, 8x pongify and 8x undying, and the rest is negotiable. I think i'd be willing to make more changes if more meaningful interaction was available. As it is, narnam renegade is effective 'must kill' blocker.
Red splash has served me well. ancient grudge is waaay better than any sort of 1-mana substitute that's powerless to combat chalice and more efficient than any 2-mana alternative. Haste is a good point tho, just haven't found the right creature to my taste. pyroclasm is definitely just a 1-of for now, so it doesn't effect the splash. It c'd just as well be second echoing truth or what not.
I'm surprised you're picturing Renegade as a blocker. The deck never struck me as trying to play the control role. Renegade's Deathtouch ability is appealing because it makes blocking it a pain. Allowing you to trade up with it. But if you're sitting back with a creature when you're trying to push through damage as quickly as possible, that just seems backwards to me. Tempo means you're trying to keep the way clear for your creatures while delaying any meaningful interaction for as long as possible from your opponent. Our deck can technically play the control game a bit but that's for rare instances where you are being out-aggro'd. Even then, you're likely better off just trying to push damage faster. I'm really curious as to your reasoning for considering your creatures' defensive utility in the deck. I think it'll help me understand where you're approaching the deck from and allow me to explain my point of view better to you.
As for Avatar, if you're assuming that your mana investment is immediately going to die, then it may not be the best option. For the same mana, you can get Strangleroot Geist (which I think is the real powerhouse card of the deck) that is very resilient, has haste, and facilitates applying pressure for your tempo gameplan. I look at it this way, playing Avatar and having it immediately die means you hopefully got 2 Evolve creatures above 3 power. So you added 2 power to the board and made a 1-for-1 card trade for the opponent. Assuming that power connects, your mana investment got you 2 damage on the turn you played it. But let's say you played Hellspark Elemental instead. Let's say you get a Raptor to 3 power off of it, putting 1 power in play. The opponent kills the Elemental same as the Avatar. You've gained 1 power but only traded 0.5 of a card for their 1 card. You get to spend the second half on the following turn for a total of 4 power (barring no other Evolve creatures entered play). It's bit abstract to compare the two but in a deck that needs to make the most out of the 12-14 cards you're going to see in a normal game, Avatar is a large source of lost potential. Especially when you are curving at 2 and the difference between playing 2 spells in a turn versus 1 is something to be taken into consideration when planning out your turns.
From my experience, 8 Pongify effects is way too many. The creature base can't really support that many without stranding copies in your hand. Even with the Undying creatures, Pongify uses up their recursive resource and only really trades for an opponents card when used defensively (in reaction to removal). It's definitely a very powerful effect in the deck and helps get more power in play on the cheap but a lot of the value of the card isn't in it's ability to directly influence the board state but to make calculations difficult for the opponent. It's existence alone makes any open blue mana on your board into a ton of possible combat tricks that your opponent needs to assess. Regardless of if you have the card in hand or not. And honestly, it only takes one, maybe two, castings in a game to get a lot of value out of it. I could easily see running 5 of the card and maaaybe 6 to make sure you see one every game. However going higher than that is going to leave you hurting to keep your board full and lead to things like Hybridizing your own Lizard Mutant to blank a removal spell for no other value. I tested originally with 4 Rapid Hybridization and I've never thought I needed more since playing with the 4-of.
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@brainpipe - It may not have been the main focus but it seems like its inclusion heavily influenced original card choices. The original list's creatures almost all had a way to give themselves +1/+1 counters and while it may have started out trying to be an Evolve deck, Avatar feels like a Timmy inclusion. It has the potential to hit play as a 6/5 or something silly for 2 mana but like I said above, the value it ends up adding to the board rarely ends up being better than just Shocking the opponent. Making your Evolve guys bigger than 3/Xs is rarely going to be relevant. You can hit your goal of getting 7-9 power in play without running undercosted fatties that are going to eat removal before doing anything relevant.
Your point about the deck burning out before closing games is exactly the problem I was running into originally. Like, there's tons of cool lines and ways to get value but at the end of the day, a lot of those interactions are just 1-for-1s and you're going to hit turn 4 with a dude or two on the ground and no way to punch through the last bit of damage. Rancor having built-in recursion, Hellspark having innate evasion and being 2 cards in 1, and Goblin Guide creating immediate pressure all help shave off durdling and add weight to the tempo plan. I tried out Chart a Course like you guys were talking about not too long ago. By using it, you are literally taking a turn off from adding to the board and that's just shooting yourself in the foot as a tempo player. The deck has to have every card count and pull a lot of weight in order to be competitive in the current modern format.
is young wolf that necessary? i understand the combo, but rhonas, the indomitable does the same work while also evolving our threats and being immune to removal.
Even Spark elemental seems better than young wolf, you can pongify it with the sacrifice trigger on the stack
as for the red spalsh, i'm still on the fence. we either go deep with red as Nick does, or the splash isn't simply worth it, especially because the deck has pretty greedy color requirements. Ancient grudge is not even close to being worth the splash, nor the bolts/vexing devils are worth a shaky manabase.
is young wolf that necessary? i understand the combo, but rhonas, the indomitable does the same work while also evolving our threats and being immune to removal.
Even Spark elemental seems better than young wolf, you can pongify it with the sacrifice trigger on the stack
as for the red spalsh, i'm still on the fence. we either go deep with red as Nick does, or the splash isn't simply worth it, especially because the deck has pretty greedy color requirements. Ancient grudge is not even close to being worth the splash, nor the bolts/vexing devils are worth a shaky manabase.
I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning the red splash in the deck. Fetch-shocking for consistent lands leaves the RUG version weaker to burn. That said, I wouldn't say the mana base is inconsistent. Out of something like 100 games over the last year, maybe 5% had land issues. The biggest issue was greedy 1 land keeps that backfired. Which was totally on me but I like to test lower limits like that.
I agree with you that Young Wolf isn't very impressive but I think it's important in the deck. It's the cheapest Undying creature and that's the bulk of it It makes removal bad and with Rancor makes opponents choose to kill a weak card instead of something you actually care about. It provides a lot of utility with a low mana cost. Undying is so good in this deck that having it on a 1 mana 1/1 is worth playing.
I have some questions for you though. What problems are you running into with your list? What's working for you? What sort of lines make you feel like you're doing the most powerful things in the deck?
I'm surprised you're picturing Renegade as a blocker. The deck never struck me as trying to play the control role. Renegade's Deathtouch ability is appealing because it makes blocking it a pain. Allowing you to trade up with it. But if you're sitting back with a creature when you're trying to push through damage as quickly as possible, that just seems backwards to me. Tempo means you're trying to keep the way clear for your creatures while delaying any meaningful interaction for as long as possible from your opponent. Our deck can technically play the control game a bit but that's for rare instances where you are being out-aggro'd. Even then, you're likely better off just trying to push damage faster. I'm really curious as to your reasoning for considering your creatures' defensive utility in the deck. I think it'll help me understand where you're approaching the deck from and allow me to explain my point of view better to you.
As for Avatar, if you're assuming that your mana investment is immediately going to die, then it may not be the best option. For the same mana, you can get Strangleroot Geist (which I think is the real powerhouse card of the deck) that is very resilient, has haste, and facilitates applying pressure for your tempo gameplan. I look at it this way, playing Avatar and having it immediately die means you hopefully got 2 Evolve creatures above 3 power. So you added 2 power to the board and made a 1-for-1 card trade for the opponent. Assuming that power connects, your mana investment got you 2 damage on the turn you played it. But let's say you played Hellspark Elemental instead. Let's say you get a Raptor to 3 power off of it, putting 1 power in play. The opponent kills the Elemental same as the Avatar. You've gained 1 power but only traded 0.5 of a card for their 1 card. You get to spend the second half on the following turn for a total of 4 power (barring no other Evolve creatures entered play). It's bit abstract to compare the two but in a deck that needs to make the most out of the 12-14 cards you're going to see in a normal game, Avatar is a large source of lost potential. Especially when you are curving at 2 and the difference between playing 2 spells in a turn versus 1 is something to be taken into consideration when planning out your turns.
From my experience, 8 Pongify effects is way too many. The creature base can't really support that many without stranding copies in your hand. Even with the Undying creatures, Pongify uses up their recursive resource and only really trades for an opponents card when used defensively (in reaction to removal). It's definitely a very powerful effect in the deck and helps get more power in play on the cheap but a lot of the value of the card isn't in it's ability to directly influence the board state but to make calculations difficult for the opponent. It's existence alone makes any open blue mana on your board into a ton of possible combat tricks that your opponent needs to assess. Regardless of if you have the card in hand or not. And honestly, it only takes one, maybe two, castings in a game to get a lot of value out of it. I could easily see running 5 of the card and maaaybe 6 to make sure you see one every game. However going higher than that is going to leave you hurting to keep your board full and lead to things like Hybridizing your own Lizard Mutant to blank a removal spell for no other value. I tested originally with 4 Rapid Hybridization and I've never thought I needed more since playing with the 4-of.
Well, different mu's make me play differently. Like when against UW-control, if my hand is not the fastest i can easily put 2/3 narnam to run laps first. But when against death's shadow, i'm really in no hurry to attack and help their gameplan, but rather sit back, try to amass creatures and horde interaction. Narnam shines as blocker, when i want to swing with flier and keep goyfs and shadows from attacing. Not saying it's the best thing to do, but i really like how one can vary playstyles depending on mu's and learn fast.
My hardest mu's seem to be removal-heavy black midrange and izzet phoenix. I'm considering giving up the 2x smuggler's copter and having stronger interaction like remand or unsubstantiate instead.
(My dreamhand is 2 lands, 1 evolver/wolf/pongify-package and interaction like bolt and spell pierce, and avatar of the resolute) soon to follow is quite powerful. )
as for the red spalsh, i'm still on the fence. we either go deep with red as Nick does, or the splash isn't simply worth it, especially because the deck has pretty greedy color requirements. Ancient grudge is not even close to being worth the splash, nor the bolts/vexing devils are worth a shaky manabase.
like i said, matter of taste mate. But if Reid Duke can play abzan-lists that splash white only for some lingering souls and strong SB options like stony silence i don't think it's a bad play. (sry about the weak fanboy-argument, couldn't help myself )
And like Capt. Nick, i've only experinced problems with greedy one-land keeps, tho i think it's the right call if hand looks the part. (ur on the draw, have several 1-mana options to play and a land that can get u blue/green.)
Incubation being another pongify and a creature dig seems decent to me so far, but I'm not sure if its worth it yet, my testing has been limited.
Light up the stage and Skewer the critics both rely on the new spectacle mechanic which this deck shouldn't have too difficult of a time using. Both being sorcery speed seems difficult, but having another bolt doesn't seem bad, and Light up the Stage might be a strong card for keeping gas in the tank.
Incubation being another pongify and a creature dig seems decent to me so far, but I'm not sure if its worth it yet, my testing has been limited.
Light up the stage and Skewer the critics both rely on the new spectacle mechanic which this deck shouldn't have too difficult of a time using. Both being sorcery speed seems difficult, but having another bolt doesn't seem bad, and Light up the Stage might be a strong card for keeping gas in the tank.
I could see incubation replacing 8th pongify, but it seems a card that will help if we are losing but also maybe lose us the game when we c'd be winning. The spectacle cards are just not worth it here imo.
For the hell of it i tried a version with more red according to my taste, aka young pyromancer (replacing avatar of the resolute) with crack the earth for some of the pongifies and while it was funny it didn't seem reliable enough. Might try again tho, the effect was ridiculous.. ..but, having to have red mana was a big minus. Usually if i notice the opponent is not playing a control game i don't even bother fetching stomping ground, and that has really saved the day against aggro.
Incubation // Incongruity seems a little odd for the deck. There isn't exactly a specific creature we're looking to have, so its Ancient Stirrings mode is just replacing itself. There's a bit of filtering/card quality that you gain but the deck wants threat density, not quality. The Pongify side exiles the creature (re:bad for Undying) and also costs 3 mana which is a lot of mana to set aside for something in the deck. I'd pass on it personally.
Light Up the Stage is really good and I think the deck can easily keep Spectacle going. I like it much more than Chart a Course for the deck. Being able to have the cards through your next turn is the big win. Effectively having Draw 2 on a 1cmc spell is insane for aggressive decks. It's a ton of gas. You do lose some combat trickiness by showing the cards but I think it's worth trying if you're feeling like the deck needs some more drawing power.
Skewer the Critics is serviceable. Like I said before, the deck can make Spectacle viable. However, a Sorcery speed Bolt doesn't seem all that appealing. Some extra reach is fine but 3 damage doesn't kill as much as it used to in Modern. I think it's decent if you really need a 5th Bolt but I don't think I'd look at running a playset any time soon.
@N_Trauman - Outside of cute interactions with Undying, what was the intent of running Crack the Earth? How was that adding to your deck's game plan? What problem was that solving? I'm very confused.
Hm, must admit i didn't read light up the stage correctly. Possibly better than warriors' lesson, tho i'm currently using neither. Good catch!
About crack the earth: i have a soft spot for young pyromancer, and reliable token-maker for our pongifies seemed fringe playable. Turn two wolf+crack seemed fun, possibly setting serum vision-players back in lands, and later cracking with pyromancer on field even funnier. But in reality the usefulness of making opp sacrifice a permanent diminishes quickly, and any deck worth it's salt will snip the pyromancer off the table or play around it with nasty repercussions.
I mean, you can play whatever you want. I just don't see how shoving cards that you like into the deck without thinking about why you're doing it is really helping the thread. What am I supposed to learn from you're telling everyone? That Crack the Earth isn't good against... ??? You didn't mention what you played it against. Also, how is Young Pyromancer instead of Avatar doing anything better with our other cards? Like, I'd love to get in on some new tech or new strategies for the deck. However, without giving reasoning behind choices and things you're testing nor info about how your testing went, I can't gain anything useful from what you're saying. Which makes it difficult to have a discussion about the deck with you.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I just want to get an actual conversation about the deck rolling. I want to point out that you need to provide better arguments if you want me to take what you're saying seriously.
Right now it sounds like you are trying to say a red splash isn't good because your version of it wasn't good. Again, against some unknown match up. But it also looks like you intentionally shot yourself in the foot with bad card choices for little to no real reason as far as improving the deck goes. And you're using that as reasoning to say that a RUG version of the deck is suboptimal. Which like I said before, pushing for UG is fine. But if you want to change my mind from RUG, I need you to explain what the benefits are to UG and give me at least some anecdotal evidence that reinforce those benefits from actual play that you've had against real opponents.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
RUG Forever A Loam
Counter CatUWRG
RGTitan Fall
QuestSteelUW
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https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Ravnica Allegiance/Gruul Spellbreaker#paper
4x experiment one
4x narnam renegade
4x young wolf
4x strangleroot geist
3x avatar of the resolute
4x rapid hybridization
3x pongify
4x lightning bolt
2x spell pierce
2x vapor snag
1x echoing truth
2x smuggler's copter
1x dryad arbor
8x fetch
2x breeding pool
2x stomping ground
3x botanical sanctum
2x forest
1x island
3x ceremonious rejection
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
1x legion loyalist
1x echoing truth
2x relic of progenitus
2x dispel
Copter's are still working fine, and dryad arbor is a must for them. It's funny how only after playing enough with this i'm ready to admit what the posts at the very beginning said: no 3-drops. It may be my playstyle too, and there are games where i'm at 4 lands, but more often i had beast within in hand with 2 lands for the whole game.
swan song does not appel to me. giving a flying blocker to opponent, no way.
relic of progenitus has been okay, mainly for the upside of cycling. I still have to remember to switch the copters out when i see colaghan's command, as its way too efficient against them.
The island is probably gonna change for another fetch, but so far two forests have worked. I'm taking this to the next fnm and hope to do as few mistakes as possible. Like u said brainpipe, i have mostly kept the one-landers for now, and it has been okay.
I decided to buy this deck on MTGO... and make an MTGO account for the first time, just so I can try and experiment with this deck more than once a week at FNM. (side note: It took me a while to figure out how to stack the pongify effects correctly and messed up a lot of games-- heh)
I tried Izzet Charm a good bit, and I am still questioning if I want any in the deck at all. I find all the modes are good, but having the mana open to cast it is often to hard for this deck. I think maybe a 1 of is not bad in place of a second spell pierce.
I'm also not sold on 8 pongify and I think I will cut it down to 6 or 7 of them in the deck to make room for something else.
The one card that has been surprising me online has been remand. I used it a lot when I was playing the Simic version of the deck. And sometimes its pretty mediocre given all the one drops in the format. But for some reason, it has been working out for me online at least.
I also think, at this point, I am sold on the same creature package you have N_Trauman. And I have been popping smuggler's copter in and out of the deck and generally quite like 2 of them. I feel like just the flying helps prevent your board from stalling out a lot.
I actually have the deck in paper, and as i don't really have money to spend on magic online (and furthermore it feels bad to pay for the cards twice) i have tried it in xmage. It has been really good for learning to stack, and i'm sure the m-online is better (more competitive and less bugged), so please tell how it goes there!
I've basically made a commitment to trying out any halfway decent Temur deck in Modern, and doing that is a lot cheaper on MTGO. Even though I have this deck in paper already, it cost basically as much as a single Misty Rainforest in paper to make this deck online. And I am currently making Bring to Light Scapeshift on there as well, so some of the more expensive cards in this deck(ie Lands) will carry over. The bulk of this deck on MTGO is like maybe 20 bucks. I think I bought a dryad arbor for 22 cents online lol.
So yeah, just having opponents at the ready to play in some competitive environment should help me hone changes for the deck. And after a few months of tinkering with it, I see the core of the deck is pretty similar to the one posted by the creator of the deck in this thread.
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Breeding Pool
2x Stomping Ground
3x Botanical Sanctum
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Cloudfin Raptor
4x Experiment One
4x Narnam Renegade
4x Young Wolf
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Avatar of the Resolute
4x Pongify
4x Lightning Bolt
Land
I think 19 lands, including the Dryad Arbor seems about right. I think at least 9 Fetch lands is pretty required (you can probably save 50 bucks and forgo a second Misty Rainforest without seeing a drop in performance. 8 Fetches is workable, but you can feel the difference a bit in practice. I think the land count can bump up to 20 if we find some three drops that compliment the deck enough though. In which case, I'd add a 4th Botanical Sanctum. I don't think there is any room for non-green mana sources though.
Creatures
This package is pretty much the core of the entire deck. I don't see any reason to take out anything listed here. While Avatar of the resolute feels great to slam down, I feel like 4 has not worked out well for me. You pretty much never want to see more than 2 in a game, and you generally only want to have to play 1 to close the game out. Unlike Strangleroot geist, avatar is too slow to run a full clip of. Narnam Renegade has proved itself many times over. He is perfect at what the deck needs. He costs one, he will pump your evolve creatures on turn 2 with or without revolt, and he has deathtouch for creatures that halt your board. Getting revolt on the turn you need it is where the extra fetches actually seem to be the most noticeable for me.
Spells
My recent consideration is about how many Pongify effects are required for this deck, but Obviously 4 are a given, and 4 Lightning Bolt is worth the red splash on its own. I'm currently running 2x Rapid Hybridization and 1x Beast Within. But I could easily see myself cutting those three cards in the future to make room for something more impactful, as I find myself flooded with the effect and lacking targets fairly often.
Flex Cards
So this core leaves about 10 flex cards to flesh out the rest of the deck. And people have listed tons of great options in this thread already. I basically wanted to post this as my take on where the floor is for the deck to not cut below. I recommend playing something else entirely once you start cutting any of these. Obviously you can add more Pongify effects, counter magic, bounces, etc. But my current take is that the deck loses steam very quickly, or it never goes off at all with too much frequency. And this is the space we have to improve that consistency.
Sideboard
This is all dependent upon your local meta, but I figure 3x Ancient Grudge for artifact hate and at least 3x Life Goes On are required if you think you will see any burn decks.
Last week i went to fnm with this but made so many mistakes that no results to mention. However, i had one pyroclasm in the SB and liked it. even when my creatures would not survive it i was able to fire it after attacking to swipe the board. Maybe only a one-of.
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Experiment One
4 Young Wolf
4 Goblin Guide
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Hellspark Elemental
Spells: 16
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rapid Hybridization
4 Vapor Snag
4 Rancor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Botanical Sanctum
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Breeding Pool
2 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Natural State
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Life Goes On
2 Spell Pierce
In general, the deck is a tempo-aggro deck when playing. You have a ton of combat tricks and ways to push through damage, it's just about getting power on to the board as fast as possible. You're looking to lead with an evolve guy, then just play haste dudes to grow them.
Creatures:
Goblin Guide - The best aggro creature out there. Sometimes you play 3 of them by turn 2 and win. Usually it is just a good follow up to some evolve dudes that lets you swing in for ~4 on turn 2 pretty consistently. You also get to see what's coming from your opponent's deck. Free info is always helpful for the aggro player.
Hellspark Elemental - 3 hasty damage on a body that hits play twice. Multiple Evolve triggers and a great target for your Hybridization.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Probably the worst creature in the deck but I've won games off her so I like the 2-of. She works well with Rancor on the Evolve guys and she puts a 2/1 into play pretty easily which also bumps late draw Evolve guys. She also wears Rancor really well.
Avatar of the Resolute - He got axed for Hellspark. I found that he often wasn't closing out games and was rarely bigger than a 3/2 or 4/3 anyways. He only hits play once and doesn't really impact the board as much as I was wanting when playing him originally.
Narnam Renegade - I didn't care for the inconsistency of her if I didn't have a fetch to play on turn 2. Like, it forced weaker lines to get a really mild upside. I swapped it out for Goblin Guide and never really looked back.
Spells:
Rapid Hybridization - I had a few too many games of sitting with a couple Pongify in-hand and no creatures to target. The effect is the core of the deck but 8 was way too many. There's probably an argument to be made for playing 5-6 but 4 is enough to see one a game and have a good "got'em" moment.
Rancor - I was having trouble with evasion and boards getting gummed up. Rancor allowed the deck to slap Trample on something and forces a lot of bad blocks on to the opponent with no real downside. Like, lets say I have a 2/3 Raptor, a 2/2 Guide, and a 3/1 Young Wolf holding a Rancor. Which one are they supposed to kill? It pulls removal from your main damage sources by making something else a more urgent threat. Even targeting a garbage creature with it forces opponents to consider wasting removal to get rid of the Rancor. It's a really versatile card and I've gotten a ton of mileage from it. Also, sometimes you draw 3 and just get there with a 6/1 Raptor.
Vapor Snag - I honestly don't remember if this was in the stock list but it's been an all-star for me. The 1 damage is usually relevant and being able to keep the board clear for a turn is typically enough to push a game in your favor. It also works really well with Rancor as you can boop the blocker and Trample all the damage through. If you play smart, it's a really strong tool. You can also hit your own guys (like Hellspark) for additional Evolve triggers.
Lands:
Fetches - I wouldn't recommend less than 9 fetches and they all have to fetch Green. The deck won't function if you can't hit double Green. Generally I try to hit a G/R dual first, then a G/U, followed by a second G/R. Being able to Unearth and Bolt in the same turn happens more often than needing to Hybridize and Snag in the same turn. However, Raptor always takes precedence. So if it's in my opener, I'm playing it turn 1.
18 lands - This is probably cutting it too close but as a player I'd rather be stuck on 2 and only playing 1-2 spells a turn rather than flooding out. 19 is fine but I wouldn't go higher than that. The deck curves at 2. Having 3 mana is a nice luxury but you get a ton of mileage from your cards. Playing smart goes a long way towards making the most of being a little choked on mana.
The main downside to the deck is that it does a pretty good job of killing itself getting the mana to work. The Burn match up is really rough but Life Goes On helps a fair bit there. It preys on metas full of control/combo decks and Tron. It can put an insane clock into play very fast. Uninterrupted it can win on turn 3 but turn 4 is more common. Against fair/midrange decks, it's alright. Discard heavy hands from the opponent are hard because you'll lose steam but removal heavy hands are generally not a problem. Rest in Peace out of a sideboard hurts a lot but you can play through it. Blood Moon is usually a death sentence unless you happen to draw a very red heavy hand. I think I've only won once after having it cast against me. Either way, sitting on Natural State helps.
Anyways, that's a large info dump... I really enjoy playing this deck and I stand behind the changes I've made to it. If there's anything you guys would like me to elaborate on, I'd be happy to. Thanks for taking the time to read through all of that. Haha.
I don't know how I feel about Goblin Guide in this deck. He is a pretty amazing card on his own for sure though, so he doesn't exactly seem like a bad fit to me.
T1: Cloudfin Raptor
T2: Experiment One, Goblin Guide, Swing 4
T3: Hellspark Elemental, Swing 11
That sort of a hand is fairly normal but definitely on the ideal side of things. Having Narnam there wouldn't change the number of triggers and actually puts you back 2 damage by turn 3. For an aggro deck, Guide does what aggro does but also fits what is going on thematically well enough to make the inclusion reasonable.
4 Experiment One
4 Pelt Collector
4 Vexing Devil
4 Spark Elemental
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Pongify
4 Rapid Hybridization
4 Chart a Course
2 Rancor
3 Vapor Snag
3 Botanical Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Seal of Primordium
2 Damping Sphere
3 Beast Within
3 Unified Will
1 Life Goes On
3 Relic of Progenitus
on paper it should be very fun and pretty fast... i'm not sure about spark elemental but i don't like the other options (like young wolf or goblin guide)
Elves || GSpirits G || Spirits || Fish
Pauper
GElvesG || CAffinityC
Commander
G Roon (and the Hidden Realms) G
Heres my current build, not a lot of red, and many games i don't even fetch for the stomping ground. Burn and UW-control are mostly favorable mu's and i really like it. Used to get floored by both
4x experiment one
4x narnam renegade
4x young wolf
4x strangleroot geist
3x avatar of the resolute
4x rapid hybridization
3x pongify
4x lightning bolt
2x spell pierce
2x vapor snag
1x echoing truth
2x smuggler's copter
1x dryad arbor
3x ceremonious rejection
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
2x surgical extraction
1x echoing truth
1x pyroclasm
2x dispel
The third color comes at a price in terms of life loss and consistency, and i wonder if it's worth it.
Here's a take on UG evolve. I switched Young wolf with Rhonas because he is immune to our pongify (AKA U: create a 3/3 token)
The aim is to go a little bigger, since our creatures struggle to go beyond 3/3
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Experiment One
4 Pelt Collector
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Steel Leaf Champion
3 Rhonas the Indomitable
Spells (18)
4 Pongify
4 Rapid Hybridization
4 Rancor
2 Vapor Snag
4 Chart a Course
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Seal of Primordium
2 Damping Sphere
2 Beast Within
3 Unified Will
2 Life Goes On
3 Relic of Progenitus
Cards to consider:
Hadana's climb
hashep oasis
stubborn denial
Elves || GSpirits G || Spirits || Fish
Pauper
GElvesG || CAffinityC
Commander
G Roon (and the Hidden Realms) G
I tend to play this deck as an aggro tempo deck rather than a full aggro deck. I have liked running counters with it so far. Your list is definitely more aggressive, but it makes me wonder if you should just play a higher tier aggro deck instead of this one.
Or, conversely, is playing this deck like a tempo deck a bigger mistake and does it run better as a full aggro deck?
Makes me want to try your version some to see how it feels.
I definitely agree that my list is more aggressive than the original. Though I don't think it is less of a tempo deck than the original but more so plays on a different axis than the original deck's intent. The original list felt like it was built around trying to make Avatar of the Resolute really big because its fun. Which is fine. Though in my opinion, the power of the deck wasn't playing a 2cmc 6/5 on turn 3 but in it's ability to blank a lot of interaction as well as pump out 3-5 "Wild Nacatl"-type threats by turn 3. So by cutting Avatar and moving away from the +1/+1 theme the deck became more streamlined towards an aggressive end with an emphasis on Evolve and repeating ETB creatures (basically trying to consistently generate 1 mana 3/3s).
The tempo aspect is definitely still there. You want your opponent to spend their mana on spells that you blank with a bunch of 1cmc spells (Hybridizing a creature in response to a Path, Snagging a 3/4 'Goyf, etc.). The main difference is that you can apply more pressure earlier on. Giving your tempo plays more weight because the clock is that much shorter for your opponent. Turn 1 and 2 are going to be the safest time to get threats in to play. Then you're looking to ride out turn 3 and 4 with your tempo spells or overloading on creature threats. Banking on a bit of reach to close out games if the game runs longer than that. Which is generally what tempo decks are looking to do.
Red splash has served me well. ancient grudge is waaay better than any sort of 1-mana substitute that's powerless to combat chalice and more efficient than any 2-mana alternative. Haste is a good point tho, just haven't found the right creature to my taste. pyroclasm is definitely just a 1-of for now, so it doesn't effect the splash. It c'd just as well be second echoing truth or what not.
I feel like Avatar isn't really the focus of the original list. He just rounds off the top end of the evolve triggers and synergizes with all the counters well. The focus of the to me at least has been put 7-9 power on the board on turn 2 and hope to finish the game with bolts and counters on turn 4.
but I am still interested in trying out your version of the list at some point. Currently I feel like this deck either burns out too early, or never really goes off. So I've been trying to figure out anything to make it more consistent.
I'm surprised you're picturing Renegade as a blocker. The deck never struck me as trying to play the control role. Renegade's Deathtouch ability is appealing because it makes blocking it a pain. Allowing you to trade up with it. But if you're sitting back with a creature when you're trying to push through damage as quickly as possible, that just seems backwards to me. Tempo means you're trying to keep the way clear for your creatures while delaying any meaningful interaction for as long as possible from your opponent. Our deck can technically play the control game a bit but that's for rare instances where you are being out-aggro'd. Even then, you're likely better off just trying to push damage faster. I'm really curious as to your reasoning for considering your creatures' defensive utility in the deck. I think it'll help me understand where you're approaching the deck from and allow me to explain my point of view better to you.
As for Avatar, if you're assuming that your mana investment is immediately going to die, then it may not be the best option. For the same mana, you can get Strangleroot Geist (which I think is the real powerhouse card of the deck) that is very resilient, has haste, and facilitates applying pressure for your tempo gameplan. I look at it this way, playing Avatar and having it immediately die means you hopefully got 2 Evolve creatures above 3 power. So you added 2 power to the board and made a 1-for-1 card trade for the opponent. Assuming that power connects, your mana investment got you 2 damage on the turn you played it. But let's say you played Hellspark Elemental instead. Let's say you get a Raptor to 3 power off of it, putting 1 power in play. The opponent kills the Elemental same as the Avatar. You've gained 1 power but only traded 0.5 of a card for their 1 card. You get to spend the second half on the following turn for a total of 4 power (barring no other Evolve creatures entered play). It's bit abstract to compare the two but in a deck that needs to make the most out of the 12-14 cards you're going to see in a normal game, Avatar is a large source of lost potential. Especially when you are curving at 2 and the difference between playing 2 spells in a turn versus 1 is something to be taken into consideration when planning out your turns.
From my experience, 8 Pongify effects is way too many. The creature base can't really support that many without stranding copies in your hand. Even with the Undying creatures, Pongify uses up their recursive resource and only really trades for an opponents card when used defensively (in reaction to removal). It's definitely a very powerful effect in the deck and helps get more power in play on the cheap but a lot of the value of the card isn't in it's ability to directly influence the board state but to make calculations difficult for the opponent. It's existence alone makes any open blue mana on your board into a ton of possible combat tricks that your opponent needs to assess. Regardless of if you have the card in hand or not. And honestly, it only takes one, maybe two, castings in a game to get a lot of value out of it. I could easily see running 5 of the card and maaaybe 6 to make sure you see one every game. However going higher than that is going to leave you hurting to keep your board full and lead to things like Hybridizing your own Lizard Mutant to blank a removal spell for no other value. I tested originally with 4 Rapid Hybridization and I've never thought I needed more since playing with the 4-of.
@brainpipe - It may not have been the main focus but it seems like its inclusion heavily influenced original card choices. The original list's creatures almost all had a way to give themselves +1/+1 counters and while it may have started out trying to be an Evolve deck, Avatar feels like a Timmy inclusion. It has the potential to hit play as a 6/5 or something silly for 2 mana but like I said above, the value it ends up adding to the board rarely ends up being better than just Shocking the opponent. Making your Evolve guys bigger than 3/Xs is rarely going to be relevant. You can hit your goal of getting 7-9 power in play without running undercosted fatties that are going to eat removal before doing anything relevant.
Your point about the deck burning out before closing games is exactly the problem I was running into originally. Like, there's tons of cool lines and ways to get value but at the end of the day, a lot of those interactions are just 1-for-1s and you're going to hit turn 4 with a dude or two on the ground and no way to punch through the last bit of damage. Rancor having built-in recursion, Hellspark having innate evasion and being 2 cards in 1, and Goblin Guide creating immediate pressure all help shave off durdling and add weight to the tempo plan. I tried out Chart a Course like you guys were talking about not too long ago. By using it, you are literally taking a turn off from adding to the board and that's just shooting yourself in the foot as a tempo player. The deck has to have every card count and pull a lot of weight in order to be competitive in the current modern format.
Even Spark elemental seems better than young wolf, you can pongify it with the sacrifice trigger on the stack
as for the red spalsh, i'm still on the fence. we either go deep with red as Nick does, or the splash isn't simply worth it, especially because the deck has pretty greedy color requirements. Ancient grudge is not even close to being worth the splash, nor the bolts/vexing devils are worth a shaky manabase.
Currently i'm at:
4 cloudfin raptor
4 pelt collector
4 experiment one
3 young wolf
4 strangleroot geist
3 rhonas, the indomitable
Spells (19)
4 rapid hybridization
4 pongify
3 rancor
3 spell pierce
1 hadana's climb
4 Chart a course
4 botanical sanctum
2 breeding pool
4 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
2 forest
1 island
3 shaper's sanctuary
2 reclamation sage
3 tormod's crypt
3 unified will
3 damping sphere
1 nissa, voice of zendikar
Elves || GSpirits G || Spirits || Fish
Pauper
GElvesG || CAffinityC
Commander
G Roon (and the Hidden Realms) G
I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning the red splash in the deck. Fetch-shocking for consistent lands leaves the RUG version weaker to burn. That said, I wouldn't say the mana base is inconsistent. Out of something like 100 games over the last year, maybe 5% had land issues. The biggest issue was greedy 1 land keeps that backfired. Which was totally on me but I like to test lower limits like that.
I agree with you that Young Wolf isn't very impressive but I think it's important in the deck. It's the cheapest Undying creature and that's the bulk of it It makes removal bad and with Rancor makes opponents choose to kill a weak card instead of something you actually care about. It provides a lot of utility with a low mana cost. Undying is so good in this deck that having it on a 1 mana 1/1 is worth playing.
I have some questions for you though. What problems are you running into with your list? What's working for you? What sort of lines make you feel like you're doing the most powerful things in the deck?
Well, different mu's make me play differently. Like when against UW-control, if my hand is not the fastest i can easily put 2/3 narnam to run laps first. But when against death's shadow, i'm really in no hurry to attack and help their gameplan, but rather sit back, try to amass creatures and horde interaction. Narnam shines as blocker, when i want to swing with flier and keep goyfs and shadows from attacing. Not saying it's the best thing to do, but i really like how one can vary playstyles depending on mu's and learn fast.
My hardest mu's seem to be removal-heavy black midrange and izzet phoenix. I'm considering giving up the 2x smuggler's copter and having stronger interaction like remand or unsubstantiate instead.
(My dreamhand is 2 lands, 1 evolver/wolf/pongify-package and interaction like bolt and spell pierce, and avatar of the resolute) soon to follow is quite powerful. )
like i said, matter of taste mate. But if Reid Duke can play abzan-lists that splash white only for some lingering souls and strong SB options like stony silence i don't think it's a bad play. (sry about the weak fanboy-argument, couldn't help myself )
And like Capt. Nick, i've only experinced problems with greedy one-land keeps, tho i think it's the right call if hand looks the part. (ur on the draw, have several 1-mana options to play and a land that can get u blue/green.)
Incubation being another pongify and a creature dig seems decent to me so far, but I'm not sure if its worth it yet, my testing has been limited.
Light up the stage and Skewer the critics both rely on the new spectacle mechanic which this deck shouldn't have too difficult of a time using. Both being sorcery speed seems difficult, but having another bolt doesn't seem bad, and Light up the Stage might be a strong card for keeping gas in the tank.
I could see incubation replacing 8th pongify, but it seems a card that will help if we are losing but also maybe lose us the game when we c'd be winning. The spectacle cards are just not worth it here imo.
For the hell of it i tried a version with more red according to my taste, aka young pyromancer (replacing avatar of the resolute) with crack the earth for some of the pongifies and while it was funny it didn't seem reliable enough. Might try again tho, the effect was ridiculous.. ..but, having to have red mana was a big minus. Usually if i notice the opponent is not playing a control game i don't even bother fetching stomping ground, and that has really saved the day against aggro.
Light Up the Stage is really good and I think the deck can easily keep Spectacle going. I like it much more than Chart a Course for the deck. Being able to have the cards through your next turn is the big win. Effectively having Draw 2 on a 1cmc spell is insane for aggressive decks. It's a ton of gas. You do lose some combat trickiness by showing the cards but I think it's worth trying if you're feeling like the deck needs some more drawing power.
Skewer the Critics is serviceable. Like I said before, the deck can make Spectacle viable. However, a Sorcery speed Bolt doesn't seem all that appealing. Some extra reach is fine but 3 damage doesn't kill as much as it used to in Modern. I think it's decent if you really need a 5th Bolt but I don't think I'd look at running a playset any time soon.
@N_Trauman - Outside of cute interactions with Undying, what was the intent of running Crack the Earth? How was that adding to your deck's game plan? What problem was that solving? I'm very confused.
About crack the earth: i have a soft spot for young pyromancer, and reliable token-maker for our pongifies seemed fringe playable. Turn two wolf+crack seemed fun, possibly setting serum vision-players back in lands, and later cracking with pyromancer on field even funnier. But in reality the usefulness of making opp sacrifice a permanent diminishes quickly, and any deck worth it's salt will snip the pyromancer off the table or play around it with nasty repercussions.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I just want to get an actual conversation about the deck rolling. I want to point out that you need to provide better arguments if you want me to take what you're saying seriously.
Right now it sounds like you are trying to say a red splash isn't good because your version of it wasn't good. Again, against some unknown match up. But it also looks like you intentionally shot yourself in the foot with bad card choices for little to no real reason as far as improving the deck goes. And you're using that as reasoning to say that a RUG version of the deck is suboptimal. Which like I said before, pushing for UG is fine. But if you want to change my mind from RUG, I need you to explain what the benefits are to UG and give me at least some anecdotal evidence that reinforce those benefits from actual play that you've had against real opponents.