Hello everyone, I am still insisting on the monoU version, and I have always obtained excellent results.
I'm seriously thinking about playing the next GP SP (BR) with her.
However, I need to get more bad-match so I can get a better view of how to deal with them.
In the last FNM I made 4-0 with no problem in the following match:
Hello everyone, I am still insisting on the monoU version, and I have always obtained excellent results.
I'm seriously thinking about playing the next GP SP (BR) with her.
However, I need to get more bad-match so I can get a better view of how to deal with them.
In the last FNM I made 4-0 with no problem in the following match:
Ponza (2-1)
Jeskai Control (2-0)
Ponza (2-0)
U/W Control (2-0)
I found two of the worse match ups to be humans and hollow one. Not great because they are very popular decks. Have you faced either of those? Jund or really any green deck can be difficult if they get a turn two ooze. Ponza hasn't been that much trouble for me, but one was running choke in the side board and that really screwed me up.
Hello everyone, I am still insisting on the monoU version, and I have always obtained excellent results.
I'm seriously thinking about playing the next GP SP (BR) with her.
However, I need to get more bad-match so I can get a better view of how to deal with them.
In the last FNM I made 4-0 with no problem in the following match:
So I tried this deck out for the first time, I ended up going 0-4 with this at my FNM. Every match went to 3 games so I can't say it was bad but this deck seems very slow and I am thinking 3 field of ruin is a little much for this deck.
What I played
A real Living End deck, 1-2, I won game 1 with a surprising Bokjuga Bog then he was just faster the other matches
Bushwhacker Zoo: 1-2,just way too fast for this deck
Mardu Pyromancer: 1-2, he was just more resilient and I never drew a as foretold to set the combo off
8-whack, 1-2, just way to fast for the deck and piledriver is a pain
I think in a control format this deck is pretty good because you can set up but I think it lacks the number of cycle creatures compared to the other living end decks. Plus they have more ways to being resilient
What was the build you used?
I find the monoU version more resilient to hatred than the jund version (Traditional Living End).
In the last FNM I did 2-1-1 respectively:
1º Jeskai Control: 2-0
2º U / W Control: 1-1
3º Eldrazi TRON: 1-2 (Considering that I was wrong in the play that would decide the game in my favor.)
4º Grixis Kiki-Jiki: 2-1
In the match I lost to TRON, I was with the following scenario:
I should have let the cup fall into play, and when he conjured up the Walking Ballista, he should have used Hurkyl's Recall and then canceled with Ceremonious Rejection.
I still believe in the potential of the deck, I had excellent results in FNM. Of course, practicing with the deck is key to improving your experience.
Hi all - its been a while. Not sure how many of us remain playing the deck; I've been on relative online silence as I compile a bunch of testing results.
I played something like 100 matches in-person with my last posted build on this forum (the one with the Simian Spirit Guides and Chalices mainboard). I'll have to compile the rest of the results and the matchup percentages, but I had something like a 60% winrate in matches with the deck when I was about halfway through my notes. Keep in mind that my build has been changed for about a 4-6 weeks, so meta may have varied at that time.
Which brings me to now (and the last couple months). I've been experimenting with both the white and black splashes, and have been more happy with the white splash. I've been mixed on Path - my opinion is that its generally felt mediocre. YMMV obviously, but that's just been my own general feeling.
My current list has 3 flex spots in it right now (I'll post later), all of which are going towards testing Wall of Omens as a cycling blocker that buys us time to "go off", while also coming back to draw us more cards later. I've been theorizing about some cool sideboard tech in white like Worship or Ghostly Prison to beat aggressive decks (Prison in particular is probably pretty good against Humans, which appears to be one of the consensus worst matchups).
I've also thought about replacing the Wall of Omens with Meddling Mages mainboard, to give us some extra game against combo decks and removal-light midrange decks (GW valuetown, etc.). Getting it Path'd is completely fine, and there's a higher incentive for an opponent to Path a Meddling Mage than a Wall of Omens.
Hi all - its been a while. Not sure how many of us remain playing the deck; I've been on relative online silence as I compile a bunch of testing results.
I played something like 100 matches in-person with my last posted build on this forum (the one with the Simian Spirit Guides and Chalices mainboard). I'll have to compile the rest of the results and the matchup percentages, but I had something like a 60% winrate in matches with the deck when I was about halfway through my notes. Keep in mind that my build has been changed for about a 4-6 weeks, so meta may have varied at that time.
Which brings me to now (and the last couple months). I've been experimenting with both the white and black splashes, and have been more happy with the white splash. I've been mixed on Path - my opinion is that its generally felt mediocre. YMMV obviously, but that's just been my own general feeling.
My current list has 3 flex spots in it right now (I'll post later), all of which are going towards testing Wall of Omens as a cycling blocker that buys us time to "go off", while also coming back to draw us more cards later. I've been theorizing about some cool sideboard tech in white like Worship or Ghostly Prison to beat aggressive decks (Prison in particular is probably pretty good against Humans, which appears to be one of the consensus worst matchups).
I've also thought about replacing the Wall of Omens with Meddling Mages mainboard, to give us some extra game against combo decks and removal-light midrange decks (GW valuetown, etc.). Getting it Path'd is completely fine, and there's a higher incentive for an opponent to Path a Meddling Mage than a Wall of Omens.
First thoughts?
Where have you been testing the deck for the numbers you posted?
I have also tested both white and black splash and I prefer white. White has a lot of good SB options and I found that Glassdust Hulk
and path have both been performing well. One main board Engineered explosives has been really great for me. In the human match up they do not name it with meddling mage often and and they can not take tolaria west with free booters so you can always tutor for it.
I have not tried spirit guides or chalice. I'm not really sold on either but it sounds like its worth testing. Wall of Omens seems like it could be alright. Cards like thalia and ooze make me think path is pretty important.
I think it is easy to over sideboard with this deck. The most reliable way to win the game is to get the combo and making the deck too reactive slows that down. I like wall of omen because it draws but are we really going to have enough time for ghostly prison to be worth it. Cards like cryptic and remand buy us time while still digging for the combo.
The list was played at various weekly Modern events (about 12-18 players), as well as a Card Kingdom 1k event in which I Top 8'd as the 2 seed, only to mulligan to oblivion against Abzan on camera. The list was back when I was playing a mono-blue mainboard with the Spirit Guides for early Chalices/As Foretolds/Jaces. I actually finished compiling my data yesterday evening - the record was 41-25-3 over that period. I've since moved to splashing because of the tools it can lend to beating bad matchups - matchups like Titanshift or Storm.
Right now I'm on a UW list that I've been happy with - although I don't find the need for cards like Glassdust Hulk. If I were going to play a cycler that wasn't Street Wraith, Curator, or Riverwinder, it would probably be Architects of Will rather than Hulk. I've also tried the black splash but Collective Brutality is the main draw there - and it's a card that doesn't quite outweigh what white can offer (although it is VERY good when it's good). I run a mainboard EE and Chalice, with the other three Chalices in the board.
I still maintain that Chalice is a very good card for our deck since it doesn't hit much (Path, if you play it), if it hits anything at all.
Hello guys, I finally bought this deck in paper and tried it phisically. This deck is very fun to play! It has consistency and combo/control is my lovely home. I made 3-1 (with one WO) yesterday, my loss was a terrible missplay.
RESULTS:
1-2 against Death and Taxes: I won the first game, missplayed the second and got unlucky on third game. Death and Taxes is not supposed to be a problem. It should have been 2-0 if I didn't missplay.
2-0 against 8-Rack (The Rack): It was very fun to use 3 Ancestral Vision in a row when i was about to loss by discard. In my second game, Nihil Spellbomb delayed me a little bit. When I felt comfortable with my hand, my Cryptic Command forced my oponnent to use his Bomb when he was passing his turn, then I managed to discard 4 creatures before Living End. I won two turns later, even after Liliana of the Veil ult.
2-0 against Bogles (Slippery Bogle): Good and fun matchup. I just played as control as much as I could and then Living End to turn over the board.
Since our Living End + As Foretold combo is slow, the control cards that we build around the combo suits it perfectly. With this in mind, I fell like this build around is too clunky and more slow. In the other hand if you get lucky this deck can be more aggressive. I would resume as: it lacks in consistency.
I still maintain that Chalice is a very good card for our deck since it doesn't hit much (Path, if you play it), if it hits anything at all.
I think that Chalice of the void is a good card but 4 slot is way too much for this card. Specially when you only use chalice to 1 in this deck (chalice to 2 hurts counterspells like Remand and others, chalice to either 0 or 3 hurts our main pieces Living End and As Foretold). I still prefer 4 Remand slots rather than 4 Chalice, it is at most sideboard in my humble opinion.
Hello everyone!
Again I come with the report of the last 2x championships I participated in 4 rounds:
05/04/2018 (FNM)
I made miserable 1-3 being:
1-2: Jund
0-2: Bant Eldrazi
2-0: E Tron
0-2: Jeskai Control
I do not have much to comment on, as I simply tilted during g3 against Jund, because when I would control the battlefield with Engineered Explosives for 2, he regenerated all creatures with Golgari Charm. After that I jumped and screwed up all the following plays and subsequent games.
05/15/2018
After recovering psychologically I decided to modify the build I use, where I changed Spell Pierce by Spell Snare, and I had great results, it follows:
1-0: U / W Control
2-0: Jeskai Control
2-0: Valakut
2-0: MonoG Tron
The list I'm using is this, and with each passing day I see how consistent it is. Of course, we can not always win every game because magic, despite all other factors is still a game of luck.
I've seen quite a few posters on this thread sharing lists that play only three copies of Living End. Based on my experience, I believe that it is correct to play the full four copies in all builds, save those that are tweaking the deck to face a slower metagame.
Against slower decks (control variants, prison variants, tron, Ad Nauseum, etc.) where there is not immediate pressure to resolve Living End, you only want three copies of Living End. However, Modern is a wide format and I feel there are more decks where having access to the full four copies is critical. Notably:
Fast creature decks (Elves, 8-whack, burn, merfolk, etc.): These decks are incredibly fast and can get underneath our countermagic and early interaction. In these matchups, our best chance of winning involves T3 As Foretold + Living End. You want to give yourself the best chance to draw these two cards in Game 1 and this means having access to the full four copies of Living End. Taking a turn off to transmute Tolaria West and find Living End will often be too slow and, in my experience, will cost you the game.
Discard decks (Jund, Grixis Death's Shadow, Mardu Pyromancer, etc.): These decks will pick apart your hand, so having redundant copies of Living End will come in handy. These games tend to get grindy. Assuming one Living End invariably gets hit by discard, that leaves you with 2 copies in your deck for the rest of the game. That may not be enough. It's best to give yourself some flex room and have more copies available for the worse case scenario.
Traditional Living End decks can get away with running three copies because they can reliably access the card through their 8 cascade spells. We're relying on ratios and percentages to find our copy (with the help of Tolaria West.) There will be times when you resolve Ancestral Vision off suspend and you need to hit exactly Living End or else you will lose. Give yourself the best chance to do so by playing four copies of the card in the mainboard.
You can always board down the fourth copy, but you can never board up.
While I'm here, I'd like to talk a bit about this deck's place in Modern. I hope this will be helpful to those who are considering picking up the deck and those who are just getting started. Please note that this represents my opinion based on observations and 100+ matches with the deck.
I came across a thread on Reddit that posed the question, "Why has Mono Blue Living End fallen out of favor?" The deck was extremely popular in December 2017 and it has slowly decreased in popularity throughout the year. To that point, here are three potential reasons why:
1) The deck has a legitimately bad humans matchup. According to MTGGoldfish.com, Humans is the most popular deck in Modern with roughly an 8% metagame share. Save drastic main deck decisions and an overloaded sideboard, we have to accept that the combination of disruption and aggression will give our deck a hard time. A fairly stock Living End As Foretold list is probably 20/80 to a stock humans list. You can splash colors or select cards to give yourself 5-10 percentage points in the matchup, but I don't see the matchup getting much better than that. Many people do not want to be that much of an underdog to one of the top decks in Modern, so some may shy away from it for that reason.
2) The deck has a direct fail rate. You can do everything right, have close to the perfect 75 and still lose because all four copies of As Foretold are in the bottom 25% of your deck. This will undoubtedly rub people the wrong way. There is a degree of variance and risk involved with playing this deck that will turn people away from picking it up. We can do things to minimize that variance, of course, but it still remains. I think you have to be OK with the fact that your deck will lose to itself on occasion through no fault of your own. This is the tradeoff we make for having access to some of the most powerful, explosive effects in the format.
Along this point, I want to stress that no deck in Modern is perfect. Our fail rate is based around finding As Foretold, but Boggles fails if they don't have any Boggles. Burn fails if it draws too many or too few lands. KCI combo fails without KCI. Affinity is an aggro deck that plays 10 0 or 1-power creatures. Every deck has its weaknesses. It's just a question of which weakness you're willing to take on and how easy you can minimize that weakness and maximize the deck's strengths.
3) The deck is difficult to build and play. People may roll their eyes on this one, but I think the point holds true. I don't think anyone can just pick this deck up and start winning with it right away. Assuming you have a decent build, you have to know which cards to bring in from the sideboard, which ones to take out, when to cast your creatures, how to play certain matchups and how to play around graveyard hate. While every deck in Modern has its own element of complexity, remember that this deck is only 6 months old and we haven't had a viable combo/control deck in Modern since Spliter Twin. I imagine that many people picked up this deck, had a rough experience, and wrote it off as unplayable.
I wouldn't be posting on this forum or playing the deck if it ended there. I'd like to offer the other side of the issue and list three reasons why I think more people should be playing this deck:
1) The deck matches up well against the rest of the Modern field. Save humans and maybe a few other hyper aggressive decks like burn, I truly believe that the deck is 50/50 or better against the majority of decks in Modern. We have outstanding matchups against control variants, midrange creature decks and other combo decks. Storm, Lantern, Tron and Boggles are all good to great matchups depending on sideboard configurations. The deck combines a fast, proactive gameplan with countermagic and other disruption which makes it good against a large percentage of the field. The additional percentage points gained by LEAF from being a rouge deck are icing on the cake.
2) The deck is legitimately powerful and disruptive. Card advantage matters in Magic and this deck generates more card advantage than any other deck in Modern. Treasure Cruise is banned in Modern and it wasn't that long ago that Ancestral Vision was banned too. Our deck takes full advantage of a bannable effect and it does so in a way that somehow makes that effect better by tutoring for it and generating it for free. The deck plays more counter magic than any other deck in Modern and it has combination of resilient and evasive threats to close the game out quickly. On a raw power scale, the base of this deck is as good as it gets.
3) The deck is a blast to play. Regardless of whether you pick the deck up to hone it or jam games at FNM, the deck is very enjoyable to play and to play against. It's unique and it's fun to watch. The intricate counter magic/gameplay and power appeals to Spike. The combo and novelty appeals to Johnny. Beating down with big creatures likely appeals to Timmy. I think I've enjoyed learning this deck and playing games with it more than I have for any other deck.
While I'm here, I'd like to talk a bit about this deck's place in Modern. I hope this will be helpful to those who are considering picking up the deck and those who are just getting started. Please note that this represents my opinion based on observations and 100+ matches with the deck.
I came across a thread on Reddit that posed the question, "Why has Mono Blue Living End fallen out of favor?" The deck was extremely popular in December 2017 and it has slowly decreased in popularity throughout the year. To that point, here are three potential reasons why:
1) The deck has a legitimately bad humans matchup. According to MTGGoldfish.com, Humans is the most popular deck in Modern with roughly an 8% metagame share. Save drastic main deck decisions and an overloaded sideboard, we have to accept that the combination of disruption and aggression will give our deck a hard time. A fairly stock Living End As Foretold list is probably 20/80 to a stock humans list. You can splash colors or select cards to give yourself 5-10 percentage points in the matchup, but I don't see the matchup getting much better than that. Many people do not want to be that much of an underdog to one of the top decks in Modern, so some may shy away from it for that reason.
2) The deck has a direct fail rate. You can do everything right, have close to the perfect 75 and still lose because all four copies of As Foretold are in the bottom 25% of your deck. This will undoubtedly rub people the wrong way. There is a degree of variance and risk involved with playing this deck that will turn people away from picking it up. We can do things to minimize that variance, of course, but it still remains. I think you have to be OK with the fact that your deck will lose to itself on occasion through no fault of your own. This is the tradeoff we make for having access to some of the most powerful, explosive effects in the format.
Along this point, I want to stress that no deck in Modern is perfect. Our fail rate is based around finding As Foretold, but Boggles fails if they don't have any Boggles. Burn fails if it draws too many or too few lands. KCI combo fails without KCI. Affinity is an aggro deck that plays 10 0 or 1-power creatures. Every deck has its weaknesses. It's just a question of which weakness you're willing to take on and how easy you can minimize that weakness and maximize the deck's strengths.
3) The deck is difficult to build and play. People may roll their eyes on this one, but I think the point holds true. I don't think anyone can just pick this deck up and start winning with it right away. Assuming you have a decent build, you have to know which cards to bring in from the sideboard, which ones to take out, when to cast your creatures, how to play certain matchups and how to play around graveyard hate. While every deck in Modern has its own element of complexity, remember that this deck is only 6 months old and we haven't had a viable combo/control deck in Modern since Spliter Twin. I imagine that many people picked up this deck, had a rough experience, and wrote it off as unplayable.
I wouldn't be posting on this forum or playing the deck if it ended there. I'd like to offer the other side of the issue and list three reasons why I think more people should be playing this deck:
1) The deck matches up well against the rest of the Modern field. Save humans and maybe a few other hyper aggressive decks like burn, I truly believe that the deck is 50/50 or better against the majority of decks in Modern. We have outstanding matchups against control variants, midrange creature decks and other combo decks. Storm, Lantern, Tron and Boggles are all good to great matchups depending on sideboard configurations. The deck combines a fast, proactive gameplan with countermagic and other disruption which makes it good against a large percentage of the field. The additional percentage points gained by LEAF from being a rouge deck are icing on the cake.
2) The deck is legitimately powerful and disruptive. Card advantage matters in Magic and this deck generates more card advantage than any other deck in Modern. Treasure Cruise is banned in Modern and it wasn't that long ago that Ancestral Vision was banned too. Our deck takes full advantage of a bannable effect and it does so in a way that somehow makes that effect better by tutoring for it and generating it for free. The deck plays more counter magic than any other deck in Modern and it has combination of resilient and evasive threats to close the game out quickly. On a raw power scale, the base of this deck is as good as it gets.
3) The deck is a blast to play. Regardless of whether you pick the deck up to hone it or jam games at FNM, the deck is very enjoyable to play and to play against. It's unique and it's fun to watch. The intricate counter magic/gameplay and power appeals to Spike. The combo and novelty appeals to Johnny. Beating down with big creatures likely appeals to Timmy. I think I've enjoyed learning this deck and playing games with it more than I have for any other deck.
Share the list you're using with us?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UB Living End as Foretold R Skred Dragons CKCI
While I'm here, I'd like to talk a bit about this deck's place in Modern. I hope this will be helpful to those who are considering picking up the deck and those who are just getting started. Please note that this represents my opinion based on observations and 100+ matches with the deck.
I came across a thread on Reddit that posed the question, "Why has Mono Blue Living End fallen out of favor?" The deck was extremely popular in December 2017 and it has slowly decreased in popularity throughout the year. To that point, here are three potential reasons why:
1) The deck has a legitimately bad humans matchup. According to MTGGoldfish.com, Humans is the most popular deck in Modern with roughly an 8% metagame share. Save drastic main deck decisions and an overloaded sideboard, we have to accept that the combination of disruption and aggression will give our deck a hard time. A fairly stock Living End As Foretold list is probably 20/80 to a stock humans list. You can splash colors or select cards to give yourself 5-10 percentage points in the matchup, but I don't see the matchup getting much better than that. Many people do not want to be that much of an underdog to one of the top decks in Modern, so some may shy away from it for that reason.
2) The deck has a direct fail rate. You can do everything right, have close to the perfect 75 and still lose because all four copies of As Foretold are in the bottom 25% of your deck. This will undoubtedly rub people the wrong way. There is a degree of variance and risk involved with playing this deck that will turn people away from picking it up. We can do things to minimize that variance, of course, but it still remains. I think you have to be OK with the fact that your deck will lose to itself on occasion through no fault of your own. This is the tradeoff we make for having access to some of the most powerful, explosive effects in the format.
Along this point, I want to stress that no deck in Modern is perfect. Our fail rate is based around finding As Foretold, but Boggles fails if they don't have any Boggles. Burn fails if it draws too many or too few lands. KCI combo fails without KCI. Affinity is an aggro deck that plays 10 0 or 1-power creatures. Every deck has its weaknesses. It's just a question of which weakness you're willing to take on and how easy you can minimize that weakness and maximize the deck's strengths.
3) The deck is difficult to build and play. People may roll their eyes on this one, but I think the point holds true. I don't think anyone can just pick this deck up and start winning with it right away. Assuming you have a decent build, you have to know which cards to bring in from the sideboard, which ones to take out, when to cast your creatures, how to play certain matchups and how to play around graveyard hate. While every deck in Modern has its own element of complexity, remember that this deck is only 6 months old and we haven't had a viable combo/control deck in Modern since Spliter Twin. I imagine that many people picked up this deck, had a rough experience, and wrote it off as unplayable.
I wouldn't be posting on this forum or playing the deck if it ended there. I'd like to offer the other side of the issue and list three reasons why I think more people should be playing this deck:
1) The deck matches up well against the rest of the Modern field. Save humans and maybe a few other hyper aggressive decks like burn, I truly believe that the deck is 50/50 or better against the majority of decks in Modern. We have outstanding matchups against control variants, midrange creature decks and other combo decks. Storm, Lantern, Tron and Boggles are all good to great matchups depending on sideboard configurations. The deck combines a fast, proactive gameplan with countermagic and other disruption which makes it good against a large percentage of the field. The additional percentage points gained by LEAF from being a rouge deck are icing on the cake.
2) The deck is legitimately powerful and disruptive. Card advantage matters in Magic and this deck generates more card advantage than any other deck in Modern. Treasure Cruise is banned in Modern and it wasn't that long ago that Ancestral Vision was banned too. Our deck takes full advantage of a bannable effect and it does so in a way that somehow makes that effect better by tutoring for it and generating it for free. The deck plays more counter magic than any other deck in Modern and it has combination of resilient and evasive threats to close the game out quickly. On a raw power scale, the base of this deck is as good as it gets.
3) The deck is a blast to play. Regardless of whether you pick the deck up to hone it or jam games at FNM, the deck is very enjoyable to play and to play against. It's unique and it's fun to watch. The intricate counter magic/gameplay and power appeals to Spike. The combo and novelty appeals to Johnny. Beating down with big creatures likely appeals to Timmy. I think I've enjoyed learning this deck and playing games with it more than I have for any other deck.
Share the list you're using with us?
So I played this deck a few weeks ago and I just wished there were more consistent ways to get a living end and wanted more cycle creatures. I know there is no reason to play temur colors, you either do mono blue or just jund living end but I want to play with as foretold lol. I know this deck isn't as effcient but I did have some luck play testing it. I went 4-0 vs jund rock which was awesome.
Here is the deck list I am running Friday night for fun
1) The deck has a legitimately bad humans matchup.
A fairly stock Living End As Foretold list is probably 20/80 to a stock humans list.
Honestly, I think you are drastically underestimating As Foretold's chances here. I used to get plowed by Humans all the time too but learning how to change your game plan can literally improve your match-up % double. Currently out of 12 humans matchups (played in 5-game MTGO competitive leagues) I'm 5-7. A far far cry from 20%.
I think this actually goes for most of the matchups. As Foretold-Living End is literally my go-to deck when the metagame gets control, affinity, and graveyard heavy (which is how the online metagame has been lately). You have probably well over an 75% win-rate against U/W control, Jeskai Control, Lantern Control, Dredge, Boggles, Affinity. These are abusrd win rates. You obviously struggle badly with fast aggro decks with counters (or problemsome creatures, a la Humans) which is definitely a reason to steer clear of it if GDS, Humans, Infect, and to a lesser degree Burn are popular.
To give you guys some raw data points I've played 213 online matches, all in 5-game competitive leagues. I've made a few SB and maindeck changes over the course of the 200+ matches but the core of the deck has stayed relatively the same. Here's a raw data dump from decks I've played more than once...
Maindeck currently looks like...
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Living End
4 As Foretold
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinders
3 Street Wraith
3 Architects of Will
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Eng. Explosives
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Field of Ruin
1 Underground River
1 River of Tears
1 Sunken Ruin
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Tolaria West
8 Island
SB (and a general guide of when to sb in the card)
1 Leyline of Sanctity (Burn, Grixis DS, Storm, Lantern, Ad Nauseam, Valakut variants)
1 Dispel (Burn, U/x control, Jeskai control, GDS, Goryo decks, G/x company, Elves, Ad Naus,
2 Hurkyl's Recall (Affinity, Lantern, Ironworks, sometimes 1 for Ad Naus)
1 Fatal Push (newest addition: Affinity, Humans, other decks where small creature kill makes sense: storm, elves, martyr proc, boggles etc.)
3 Collective Brutality (burn, mardu pyromancer, human, goryo's, some g/x company on play, some ad nauseam, elves, death and taxes, U/x control, Jeskai Control)
2 Dismember (affinity, hollow one, humans, storm, boggles, g/x company, eldrazi variants, elves, etc.)
4 Leyline of the Void (hollow one, 1 vs. u/x control, 2-3 vs. mardu pyromancer, 1 gds, 1 jeskai control, goryo's, dredge, 1 jund, living end, some vs. martyr proc)
1 Engineered Explosives (humans, affinity, mardu pyro, boggles, gds, elves, lantern, jund, eldrazi tron, death and taxes, on draw burn)
- cards to consider based on metagame
ceremonious rejection for tron, affinity, lantern, eldrazi
chalice of the void (amulet titan, 8-rack, burn, affinity, gds, boggles, lantern)
more 1 mana counter spells (spell pierce, spell snare, dispel)
pact of negation (control decks)
4th brutality (burn)
more fatal push (humans, elves)
2nd or 3rd leyline of the sanctity (burn, gds)
Damping Sphere (storm, tron, amulet)
Field of Ruin/Ghost quarter (tron, valakut, u/x control, jeskai control)
Search of Azcanta (control)
surgical extraction (tron, combo)
grafdigger's cage (collected company decks, snapcaster, storm)
First cards I'd cut to tune sb would be hurkyl's recall (your affinity and lantern matchups are already great, ironworks isn't that popular), dispel (control matchups are out of this world already)
As before, play the deck when Affinity, control, mardu pyromancer, and other graveyard centric decks are high). Don't play it when gds, burn, fast combo, humans are high.
Typical sideboard plan for Humans:
+2 dismember, +1 EE, +3 Collective Brutality, +1 Fatal Push.
-2 Spell Pierce, -3 Street Wraith, -1 AoW, -1 Spell Snare (or AoW, depending on play/draw).
You can cut a lot of creatures because typically if you wrath and even get 1 creature out of it you are in a great position to win the game.
I really up the spot removal as they are very weak to it, especially when combined with sweepers as it puts them in a position to choose between overplaying or holding back. The game plan is to sweep as soon as possible but the art comes into which creatures to hold your spot removal for. They only have temporary ways to remove your plan (meddling mage, freebooter) so obviously those are big targets but usually not until the turn you can go off. Trade your life points for time and resources (typically most games I win I'm between 1-5 life). Rarely do I kill a 1 drop unless I really think it will buy me more than 1 turn or if I need a turn 3 or 4 living end to win and that depends on what is in your hand and what they are dropping on turn 2. Typically I'm actually willing to take 1 or 2 damage from the 1 drop on their turn 2 if they haven't played their 2nd turn creature yet to get better information of where to point the fatal push/dismember. EE almost always goes on 2 unless it's getting massive card advantage on 1.
Probably worth noting I'm a big proponent as playing this as a control deck rather than a pure combo deck. Almost all my matchups involve siding out some number of cycle creatures and I almost always would rather wait a turn to play as foretold w/ counter backup than push it on turn 3 blind. Same with decision between 1st turn suspend visions vs. holding. I typically suspend it, in control matchups even if I have an opening hand as foretold. I win without casting living end for any (or few) creatures probably around 25-40% of the games.
Other (sometimes odd opinions). I honestly think rest in peace is possible the worst sideboard card against me and absolutely love to see almost any opponent play it (it's a discard spell for me, it's a huge tempo advantage, it guarantees all my living ends are wraths, 2nd living end won't give my opponent creatures). I see affinity players play that card against me and honestly I'm bewildered, affinities best card is ravager and rest in peace is literally a card I'd side in if I had access to it vs. affinity.
Thanks for sharing your data. Based on your deck configuration, I can understand why your win percentages are what they are with the exception of these two. I would think your Mardu matchup isn't this good and your Grixis matchup isn't this bad. I'd be curious to hear more about the Mardu matchup and what has lead to such results.
First cards I'd cut to tune sb would be hurkyl's recall (your affinity and lantern matchups are already great, ironworks isn't that popular), dispel (control matchups are out of this world already)
Additionally, I wouldn't recommend cutting down on Dispel in your current configuration, especially only having access to three one-mana counterspells in the main deck. Setting control matchups aside, Dispel is great in the Storm matchup and it has plenty of other applications against decks like Burn, Goryo's variants.
Probably worth noting I'm a big proponent as playing this as a control deck rather than a pure combo deck. Almost all my matchups involve siding out some number of cycle creatures and I almost always would rather wait a turn to play as foretold w/ counter backup than push it on turn 3 blind.
This is interesting. I noticed that your list does feel more controlling with the Search for Azcanta and the Nimble Obstructionist in the mainboard. I suppose there's no arguing with your results, but I do question how good Search for Azcanta is in this deck, even as a 1-of. I don't believe that the effect is necessary in our good G1 matchups and I think the card does not help in the bad G1 matchups. Also, I would imagine that you sideboard it out frequently since most decks will be looking to turn off your graveyard in post-board games. Disclaimer: I've never tested the card out personally as I believe in taking a more combo-focused approach with the deck.
I honestly think rest in peace is possible the worst sideboard card against me and absolutely love to see almost any opponent play it
I completely agree here. Rest in Peace allows you to focus only on the battlefield and control the flow of the game easier. Your Living Ends are more clean X for 1s and since you almost always can out-card advantage opponents, you run them out of resources and win the game. Your coming to this conclusion speaks to how many reps you have with the deck, which I can appreciate.
Are you looking to tune the deck or are you comfortable as is with your current list?
I'd be curious to hear more about the Mardu matchup and what has lead to such results.
I actually feel like this isn't that surprising. Most creature decks without a lot of interaction and disruption are good matchups. Mardu Pyromancer falls into this category. This is drastically different than GDS as they have abundant discard, counter magic, and cheap efficient threats. I do believe that the GDS matchup is probably not quite as bad as it is showing on the spreatsheet. I haven't played it lately as it is falling off in popularity and I don't believe I have the optimal play strategy down against it yet. They typically run limited countermagic game 1 so I think the strategy game 1 is actually different than game 2. Also I've upped to 4 leyline's which I didn't have for a majority of the matches against GDS so that will probably help.
I noticed that your list does feel more controlling with the Search for Azcanta and the Nimble Obstructionist in the mainboard.
I'm not sure which list you are looking at (perhaps my 5-0 league list from mtgo.com?) but the one posted here no longer runs search for azcanta in the 75 (I replaced the md one with a md EE). Nimble Obstructionist is good against a lot of odd strategies and decent against the decks that you are not good against (storm, tron, humans). It also has a small psychological effect where if an opponent sees it once they often play different from that point on. Therefore, even if you sb it out you can still get a positive effect from it.
I'll give Echoing Truth a try, the reasons you suggested seem fair.
I'm always trying to continuing tuning and finding different solutions. I've tried a lot of different variants and am pretty confident in that the list I have is pretty close to being top notch.
It's worth nothing that the Jeskai control matchups is evolving. They are adding more Vendellion Cliques which combined with Jace is actually a pretty bad combination. Actually Jace in general with any sort of counter magic at all is pretty hard to overcome. I believe that matchup used we used to try to be simply the control player, however it's morphed a little bit to you needing to put a little proactive pressure and to be very careful around their 4th turn.
So over time I've seen that the main problem of our deck is the disrupt, this ends up with our combo in a way that sometimes we can not recover, so I found little just 1x Leyline of Sanctity., I usually use 3x of SB.
I really need to test my build against Mardu, Hollow One and Humans.
Yesterday I made 3-1 in the regular championship:
1-2 Jeskai Control: (The match against the Jeskai was due to a problem we had as far as the opposing player taking advantage of the judge is not present and requesting that the phase transition be reverted. Anyway, that made me extremely angry at him for using it in bad faith.) 2-0 Grixis DS: (Game was very quiet, in the game 1x I was saved by Bojuka and E.E) 2-1 Boogles: (Game was very easy) 2-0 Ponza: (Game was very easy)
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Modern: UB Living End as Foretold R Skred Dragons CKCI
Probably worth noting I'm a big proponent as playing this as a control deck rather than a pure combo deck. Almost all my matchups involve siding out some number of cycle creatures and I almost always would rather wait a turn to play as foretold w/ counter backup than push it on turn 3 blind. Same with decision between 1st turn suspend visions vs. holding. I typically suspend it, in control matchups even if I have an opening hand as foretold. I win without casting living end for any (or few) creatures probably around 25-40% of the games.
Knowing when to play As Foretold is important. It is generally a good idea against non-blue decks to cast As Foretold only when you are guaranteed to get some value from either Ancestral Vision or Living End.
It's hard to make definitive statements about play lines with the deck, but I think it's pretty safe to say it's usually correct to suspend Ancestral Vision on turn one (play or draw) if you have it in your opening hand.
I rarely sideboard out cycle creatures unless I'm bringing in some number of Nimble Obstructionist from the sideboard. I leave in all four copies of Curator of Mysteries, Street Wraith and Striped Riverwinder in almost all matchups. For me, sideboarding involves changing my configuration of countermagic, spot removal and utility spells. It's important to keep that base of 12 cyclers. In addition to serving as your win conditions, these cards help you dig through your deck to not only find As Foretold but your critically important sideboard cards.
I'm always trying to continuing tuning and finding different solutions.
Good! It's important to do this, but it's also important to recognize when you find configurations that work for you. Sometimes "tuning" means going over your sideboard plan for each matchup and thinking of how to best leverage your 75 to give you the best 60 cards on the play and on the draw.
On the subject of tuning, I'd be interested to hear about how you arrived at your manabase configuration. I'm no expert by any means, but I have some ideas I'd like to offer you, especially related to your manabase.
Since we are a 4x Tolaria West deck, many people use this fact to justify the presence of Ghost Quarter. The idea that you can situationally transmute for Ghost Quarter seems appealing, but I've found that this rarely comes up in practice. First, when transmuting, it is incredibly rare to prioritize a land destruction effect over one of our powerhouse targets in Living End, Ancestral Vision or Bojuka Bog. In the exceptionally rare case that we actually want the land destruction effect, Field of Ruin is just as good as Ghost Quarter in the majority of those scenarios.
With Ghost Quarter, setting yourself back a land is often a real drawback. Think about the Tron matchup. It may seem advantageous to be able to Ghost Quarter the opponent off a Tron land on turns 1-2 (where you wouldn't be able to activate Field of Ruin), but the time you buy yourself is mitigated by the fact that you've essentially lost a turn and you're that much further from gaining control over the game. (The presence of Remand and Spell Pierce in the deck should protect us from getting run over early from Tron.) Tron cares less about having Tron early against us since they play a more midrange game post board anyway, so Ghost Quarter is oddly more of a liability against them than anything else.
One of the nice things about Field of Ruin is that is fixes mana, thins the decks and disrupts the opponent at the same time. Outside of Curator of Mysteries, we don't use scry effects in the deck (or at least we shouldn't!), so shuffling the library has minimal downside. Removing a land out of the deck, when combined with all of our cycling, adds up and increases our changes of finding As Foretold. I think it's justifiable to play Ghost Quarter when using it alongside Surgical Extraction. If you're not, then I think Field of Ruin is the better fit for the deck.
SO I took my temur list to my local FNM and it seems to a be pretty competitve shop with tier 1-2 decks. I ended going 2-2 for the night and for the most part I thought the deck was pretty consistent and alot more consistent for when I tried out the mono blue version. I know there aren'y as many interactions as the mono blue but the deck was pretty good.
Match 1: 1-2 vs Jund, He took game 1 because I couldn't find a violent outburst, I took game 2 very quickly and game 3 I beat myself by playing a blood moon and him landing a lily. I can definetly beat this match up, I just need to fix the sideboard a little. I think blood moon is asking a little too much out of this deck.
Match 2: 0-2, vs KCI, this deck is very hard to deal with and he ending up not losing all night and 2-0 everyone
Match 3: 2-0 vs UW control, game 1 I swung for 23 damage on turn 4 then game 2 we played a more of a control variant but I was able to ricochet trap his cryptic for the win
Match 4: 2-1 vs eldrazi tron, game 1 he won but the next two games I was able to chew is chalices away and land a living end.
I was really happy with the deck all night, I think the sideboard could use a little tinkering but as a whole the deck was consistent and alot of fun. I know the card as foretold isn't as interactive as the mono blue version but after using it once in a game, it makes the opponent a little more cautious when you have counters present in the deck.
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Hello everyone, I am still insisting on the monoU version, and I have always obtained excellent results.
I'm seriously thinking about playing the next GP SP (BR) with her.
However, I need to get more bad-match so I can get a better view of how to deal with them.
In the last FNM I made 4-0 with no problem in the following match:
I used the following list:
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Curator of Mysteries
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nimble Obstructionist
Spells (21)
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
2 Disallow
2 Mana Leak
3 Living End
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Supreme Will
4 As Foretold
Artifacts (1)
1 Engineered Explosives
Lands (20)
3 Field of Ruin
10 Island
4 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Dispel
2 Dismember
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Mindbreak Trap
I added 2x Mindbreak Trap to deal with threats such as Supreme Verdict , Storm , Cavern of Souls, and/or any other threat that can't be countered.
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
I found two of the worse match ups to be humans and hollow one. Not great because they are very popular decks. Have you faced either of those? Jund or really any green deck can be difficult if they get a turn two ooze. Ponza hasn't been that much trouble for me, but one was running choke in the side board and that really screwed me up.
So I tried this deck out for the first time, I ended up going 0-4 with this at my FNM. Every match went to 3 games so I can't say it was bad but this deck seems very slow and I am thinking 3 field of ruin is a little much for this deck.
What I played
A real Living End deck, 1-2, I won game 1 with a surprising Bokjuga Bog then he was just faster the other matches
Bushwhacker Zoo: 1-2,just way too fast for this deck
Mardu Pyromancer: 1-2, he was just more resilient and I never drew a as foretold to set the combo off
8-whack, 1-2, just way to fast for the deck and piledriver is a pain
I think in a control format this deck is pretty good because you can set up but I think it lacks the number of cycle creatures compared to the other living end decks. Plus they have more ways to being resilient
I find the monoU version more resilient to hatred than the jund version (Traditional Living End).
In the last FNM I did 2-1-1 respectively:
1º Jeskai Control: 2-0
2º U / W Control: 1-1
3º Eldrazi TRON: 1-2 (Considering that I was wrong in the play that would decide the game in my favor.)
4º Grixis Kiki-Jiki: 2-1
In the match I lost to TRON, I was with the following scenario:
I had at hand:
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Remand
1x Hurkyl's Recall
My opponent had 3 life and I was with 2 life.
He tried to lower a Goblet to 1, and I canceled it (I lost the game at that time).
After he tried to do a 1x Walking Ballista for 2, I gave him a Remand (and I prayed to buy a void) and then he did the Walking Ballista again for 2.
I should have let the cup fall into play, and when he conjured up the Walking Ballista, he should have used Hurkyl's Recall and then canceled with Ceremonious Rejection.
I still believe in the potential of the deck, I had excellent results in FNM. Of course, practicing with the deck is key to improving your experience.
Against the Whack of life, being able to solve a Living End and / or a Engineered Explosives manages to hold the burst.
Matchups: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36313_Suspending-Doubt-About-Mono-Blue-Living-End.html
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
I played something like 100 matches in-person with my last posted build on this forum (the one with the Simian Spirit Guides and Chalices mainboard). I'll have to compile the rest of the results and the matchup percentages, but I had something like a 60% winrate in matches with the deck when I was about halfway through my notes. Keep in mind that my build has been changed for about a 4-6 weeks, so meta may have varied at that time.
Which brings me to now (and the last couple months). I've been experimenting with both the white and black splashes, and have been more happy with the white splash. I've been mixed on Path - my opinion is that its generally felt mediocre. YMMV obviously, but that's just been my own general feeling.
My current list has 3 flex spots in it right now (I'll post later), all of which are going towards testing Wall of Omens as a cycling blocker that buys us time to "go off", while also coming back to draw us more cards later. I've been theorizing about some cool sideboard tech in white like Worship or Ghostly Prison to beat aggressive decks (Prison in particular is probably pretty good against Humans, which appears to be one of the consensus worst matchups).
I've also thought about replacing the Wall of Omens with Meddling Mages mainboard, to give us some extra game against combo decks and removal-light midrange decks (GW valuetown, etc.). Getting it Path'd is completely fine, and there's a higher incentive for an opponent to Path a Meddling Mage than a Wall of Omens.
First thoughts?
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
Where have you been testing the deck for the numbers you posted?
I have also tested both white and black splash and I prefer white. White has a lot of good SB options and I found that Glassdust Hulk
and path have both been performing well. One main board Engineered explosives has been really great for me. In the human match up they do not name it with meddling mage often and and they can not take tolaria west with free booters so you can always tutor for it.
I have not tried spirit guides or chalice. I'm not really sold on either but it sounds like its worth testing. Wall of Omens seems like it could be alright. Cards like thalia and ooze make me think path is pretty important.
I think it is easy to over sideboard with this deck. The most reliable way to win the game is to get the combo and making the deck too reactive slows that down. I like wall of omen because it draws but are we really going to have enough time for ghostly prison to be worth it. Cards like cryptic and remand buy us time while still digging for the combo.
Right now I'm on a UW list that I've been happy with - although I don't find the need for cards like Glassdust Hulk. If I were going to play a cycler that wasn't Street Wraith, Curator, or Riverwinder, it would probably be Architects of Will rather than Hulk. I've also tried the black splash but Collective Brutality is the main draw there - and it's a card that doesn't quite outweigh what white can offer (although it is VERY good when it's good). I run a mainboard EE and Chalice, with the other three Chalices in the board.
I still maintain that Chalice is a very good card for our deck since it doesn't hit much (Path, if you play it), if it hits anything at all.
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
DECKLIST:
4 Tolaria West
13 Island
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Field of Ruin
Creatures(16)
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Curator of Mysteries
2 Architects of Will
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Drift of Phantasms
4 As Foretold
Spells (18)
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Living End
3 Cryptic Command
4 Remand
2 Spell Pierce
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Dismember
3 Tormod's Crypt
Have in mind that I am still building the deck. I am waiting for 2 more Nimble Obstructionist, I prefer this card rather than Disallow. I am still considering if I should afford to buy either Leyline of the Void or Leyline of Sanctity
RESULTS:
1-2 against Death and Taxes: I won the first game, missplayed the second and got unlucky on third game. Death and Taxes is not supposed to be a problem. It should have been 2-0 if I didn't missplay.
2-0 against 8-Rack (The Rack): It was very fun to use 3 Ancestral Vision in a row when i was about to loss by discard. In my second game, Nihil Spellbomb delayed me a little bit. When I felt comfortable with my hand, my Cryptic Command forced my oponnent to use his Bomb when he was passing his turn, then I managed to discard 4 creatures before Living End. I won two turns later, even after Liliana of the Veil ult.
2-0 against Bogles (Slippery Bogle): Good and fun matchup. I just played as control as much as I could and then Living End to turn over the board.
Since our Living End + As Foretold combo is slow, the control cards that we build around the combo suits it perfectly. With this in mind, I fell like this build around is too clunky and more slow. In the other hand if you get lucky this deck can be more aggressive. I would resume as: it lacks in consistency.
I think that Chalice of the void is a good card but 4 slot is way too much for this card. Specially when you only use chalice to 1 in this deck (chalice to 2 hurts counterspells like Remand and others, chalice to either 0 or 3 hurts our main pieces Living End and As Foretold). I still prefer 4 Remand slots rather than 4 Chalice, it is at most sideboard in my humble opinion.
Hello everyone!
Again I come with the report of the last 2x championships I participated in 4 rounds:
05/04/2018 (FNM)
I made miserable 1-3 being:
1-2: Jund
0-2: Bant Eldrazi
2-0: E Tron
0-2: Jeskai Control
I do not have much to comment on, as I simply tilted during g3 against Jund, because when I would control the battlefield with Engineered Explosives for 2, he regenerated all creatures with Golgari Charm. After that I jumped and screwed up all the following plays and subsequent games.
05/15/2018
After recovering psychologically I decided to modify the build I use, where I changed Spell Pierce by Spell Snare, and I had great results, it follows:
1-0: U / W Control
2-0: Jeskai Control
2-0: Valakut
2-0: MonoG Tron
The list I'm using is this, and with each passing day I see how consistent it is. Of course, we can not always win every game because magic, despite all other factors is still a game of luck.
The list I am using is:
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Curator of Mysteries
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nimble Obstructionist
Spells (21)
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
2 Disallow
2 Mana Leak
3 Living End
2 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Supreme Will
4 As Foretold
Artifacts (1)
1 Engineered Explosives
Lands (20)
3 Field of Ruin
10 Island
4 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dispel
2 Dismember
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Mindbreak Trap
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
Against slower decks (control variants, prison variants, tron, Ad Nauseum, etc.) where there is not immediate pressure to resolve Living End, you only want three copies of Living End. However, Modern is a wide format and I feel there are more decks where having access to the full four copies is critical. Notably:
Fast creature decks (Elves, 8-whack, burn, merfolk, etc.): These decks are incredibly fast and can get underneath our countermagic and early interaction. In these matchups, our best chance of winning involves T3 As Foretold + Living End. You want to give yourself the best chance to draw these two cards in Game 1 and this means having access to the full four copies of Living End. Taking a turn off to transmute Tolaria West and find Living End will often be too slow and, in my experience, will cost you the game.
Discard decks (Jund, Grixis Death's Shadow, Mardu Pyromancer, etc.): These decks will pick apart your hand, so having redundant copies of Living End will come in handy. These games tend to get grindy. Assuming one Living End invariably gets hit by discard, that leaves you with 2 copies in your deck for the rest of the game. That may not be enough. It's best to give yourself some flex room and have more copies available for the worse case scenario.
Traditional Living End decks can get away with running three copies because they can reliably access the card through their 8 cascade spells. We're relying on ratios and percentages to find our copy (with the help of Tolaria West.) There will be times when you resolve Ancestral Vision off suspend and you need to hit exactly Living End or else you will lose. Give yourself the best chance to do so by playing four copies of the card in the mainboard.
You can always board down the fourth copy, but you can never board up.
I came across a thread on Reddit that posed the question, "Why has Mono Blue Living End fallen out of favor?" The deck was extremely popular in December 2017 and it has slowly decreased in popularity throughout the year. To that point, here are three potential reasons why:
1) The deck has a legitimately bad humans matchup. According to MTGGoldfish.com, Humans is the most popular deck in Modern with roughly an 8% metagame share. Save drastic main deck decisions and an overloaded sideboard, we have to accept that the combination of disruption and aggression will give our deck a hard time. A fairly stock Living End As Foretold list is probably 20/80 to a stock humans list. You can splash colors or select cards to give yourself 5-10 percentage points in the matchup, but I don't see the matchup getting much better than that. Many people do not want to be that much of an underdog to one of the top decks in Modern, so some may shy away from it for that reason.
2) The deck has a direct fail rate. You can do everything right, have close to the perfect 75 and still lose because all four copies of As Foretold are in the bottom 25% of your deck. This will undoubtedly rub people the wrong way. There is a degree of variance and risk involved with playing this deck that will turn people away from picking it up. We can do things to minimize that variance, of course, but it still remains. I think you have to be OK with the fact that your deck will lose to itself on occasion through no fault of your own. This is the tradeoff we make for having access to some of the most powerful, explosive effects in the format.
Along this point, I want to stress that no deck in Modern is perfect. Our fail rate is based around finding As Foretold, but Boggles fails if they don't have any Boggles. Burn fails if it draws too many or too few lands. KCI combo fails without KCI. Affinity is an aggro deck that plays 10 0 or 1-power creatures. Every deck has its weaknesses. It's just a question of which weakness you're willing to take on and how easy you can minimize that weakness and maximize the deck's strengths.
3) The deck is difficult to build and play. People may roll their eyes on this one, but I think the point holds true. I don't think anyone can just pick this deck up and start winning with it right away. Assuming you have a decent build, you have to know which cards to bring in from the sideboard, which ones to take out, when to cast your creatures, how to play certain matchups and how to play around graveyard hate. While every deck in Modern has its own element of complexity, remember that this deck is only 6 months old and we haven't had a viable combo/control deck in Modern since Spliter Twin. I imagine that many people picked up this deck, had a rough experience, and wrote it off as unplayable.
I wouldn't be posting on this forum or playing the deck if it ended there. I'd like to offer the other side of the issue and list three reasons why I think more people should be playing this deck:
1) The deck matches up well against the rest of the Modern field. Save humans and maybe a few other hyper aggressive decks like burn, I truly believe that the deck is 50/50 or better against the majority of decks in Modern. We have outstanding matchups against control variants, midrange creature decks and other combo decks. Storm, Lantern, Tron and Boggles are all good to great matchups depending on sideboard configurations. The deck combines a fast, proactive gameplan with countermagic and other disruption which makes it good against a large percentage of the field. The additional percentage points gained by LEAF from being a rouge deck are icing on the cake.
2) The deck is legitimately powerful and disruptive. Card advantage matters in Magic and this deck generates more card advantage than any other deck in Modern. Treasure Cruise is banned in Modern and it wasn't that long ago that Ancestral Vision was banned too. Our deck takes full advantage of a bannable effect and it does so in a way that somehow makes that effect better by tutoring for it and generating it for free. The deck plays more counter magic than any other deck in Modern and it has combination of resilient and evasive threats to close the game out quickly. On a raw power scale, the base of this deck is as good as it gets.
3) The deck is a blast to play. Regardless of whether you pick the deck up to hone it or jam games at FNM, the deck is very enjoyable to play and to play against. It's unique and it's fun to watch. The intricate counter magic/gameplay and power appeals to Spike. The combo and novelty appeals to Johnny. Beating down with big creatures likely appeals to Timmy. I think I've enjoyed learning this deck and playing games with it more than I have for any other deck.
Share the list you're using with us?
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
So I played this deck a few weeks ago and I just wished there were more consistent ways to get a living end and wanted more cycle creatures. I know there is no reason to play temur colors, you either do mono blue or just jund living end but I want to play with as foretold lol. I know this deck isn't as effcient but I did have some luck play testing it. I went 4-0 vs jund rock which was awesome.
Here is the deck list I am running Friday night for fun
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Desert Cerodon
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Nimble Obstructionist
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
1 Vendilion Clique
Enchantment (3)
3 As Foretold
Instant (10)
3 Cryptic Command
2 Disallow
1 Supreme Will
4 Violent Outburst
3 Living End
Land (21)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon
3 Damping Sphere
2 Dismember
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ricochet Trap
Honestly, I think you are drastically underestimating As Foretold's chances here. I used to get plowed by Humans all the time too but learning how to change your game plan can literally improve your match-up % double. Currently out of 12 humans matchups (played in 5-game MTGO competitive leagues) I'm 5-7. A far far cry from 20%.
I think this actually goes for most of the matchups. As Foretold-Living End is literally my go-to deck when the metagame gets control, affinity, and graveyard heavy (which is how the online metagame has been lately). You have probably well over an 75% win-rate against U/W control, Jeskai Control, Lantern Control, Dredge, Boggles, Affinity. These are abusrd win rates. You obviously struggle badly with fast aggro decks with counters (or problemsome creatures, a la Humans) which is definitely a reason to steer clear of it if GDS, Humans, Infect, and to a lesser degree Burn are popular.
To give you guys some raw data points I've played 213 online matches, all in 5-game competitive leagues. I've made a few SB and maindeck changes over the course of the 200+ matches but the core of the deck has stayed relatively the same. Here's a raw data dump from decks I've played more than once...
Totals 213 139-74 309-214 65.3% 59.1%
Deck Name Total Matches Match Win Game Win Match Win % Game Win % Metagame %
Affinity 18 14-4 32-17 77.8% 65.3% 8.45%
Hollow One 16 9-7 21-21 56.3% 50.0% 7.51%
Burn 16 7-9 17-20 43.8% 45.9% 7.51%
U/W Control 12 11-1 23-4 91.7% 85.2% 5.63%
Mardu Pyromancer 12 10-2 22-5 83.3% 81.5% 5.63%
Humans 12 5-7 13-16 41.7% 44.8% 5.63%
G/x Tron 10 6-4 13-11 60.0% 54.2% 4.69%
Grixis DS 9 3-6 7-15 33.3% 31.8% 4.23%
Jeskai Control 7 5-2 11-5 71.4% 68.8% 3.29%
Storm 7 4-3 8-9 57.1% 47.1% 3.29%
Boggles 6 6-0 12-2 100.0% 85.7% 2.82%
Goryo's 5 2-3 5-7 40.0% 41.7% 2.35%
Lantern Control 4 4-0 8-0 100.0% 100.0% 1.88%
Dredge 4 4-0 8-2 100.0% 80.0% 1.88%
G/x Company 4 4-0 8-4 100.0% 66.7% 1.88%
B/W Eldrazi 4 4-0 8-4 100.0% 66.7% 1.88%
Elves 4 3-1 6-4 75.0% 60.0% 1.88%
Bant Eldrazi 4 2-2 5-5 50.0% 50.0% 1.88%
Ad Nauseam 4 2-2 5-6 50.0% 45.5% 1.88%
Jund 4 2-2 5-5 50.0% 50.0% 1.88%
Amulet Titan 3 2-1 5-2 66.7% 71.4% 1.41%
Living End 2 2-0 4-0 100.0% 100.0% 0.94%
BTL Scapeshift 2 2-0 4-1 100.0% 80.0% 0.94%
Titan Shift 2 2-0 4-1 100.0% 80.0% 0.94%
Abzan 2 1-1 3-2 50.0% 60.0% 0.94%
Martyr 2 1-1 3-2 50.0% 60.0% 0.94%
8-rack 2 1-1 3-3 50.0% 50.0% 0.94%
Ironworks 2 1-1 2-2 50.0% 50.0% 0.94%
Eldrazi Tron 2 1-1 2-3 50.0% 40.0% 0.94%
UBR Breach/Goryo's Vengeance 2 1-1 2-3 50.0% 40.0% 0.94%
Death and Taxes 2 1-1 2-3 50.0% 40.0% 0.94%
Infect 2 0-2 0-4 0.0% 0.0% 0.94%
Colorless Eldrazi 2 0-2 0-4 0.0% 0.0% 0.94%
What would be the game plan for Humans?
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Living End
4 As Foretold
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinders
3 Street Wraith
3 Architects of Will
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Eng. Explosives
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Field of Ruin
1 Underground River
1 River of Tears
1 Sunken Ruin
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Tolaria West
8 Island
SB (and a general guide of when to sb in the card)
1 Leyline of Sanctity (Burn, Grixis DS, Storm, Lantern, Ad Nauseam, Valakut variants)
1 Dispel (Burn, U/x control, Jeskai control, GDS, Goryo decks, G/x company, Elves, Ad Naus,
2 Hurkyl's Recall (Affinity, Lantern, Ironworks, sometimes 1 for Ad Naus)
1 Fatal Push (newest addition: Affinity, Humans, other decks where small creature kill makes sense: storm, elves, martyr proc, boggles etc.)
3 Collective Brutality (burn, mardu pyromancer, human, goryo's, some g/x company on play, some ad nauseam, elves, death and taxes, U/x control, Jeskai Control)
2 Dismember (affinity, hollow one, humans, storm, boggles, g/x company, eldrazi variants, elves, etc.)
4 Leyline of the Void (hollow one, 1 vs. u/x control, 2-3 vs. mardu pyromancer, 1 gds, 1 jeskai control, goryo's, dredge, 1 jund, living end, some vs. martyr proc)
1 Engineered Explosives (humans, affinity, mardu pyro, boggles, gds, elves, lantern, jund, eldrazi tron, death and taxes, on draw burn)
- cards to consider based on metagame
ceremonious rejection for tron, affinity, lantern, eldrazi
chalice of the void (amulet titan, 8-rack, burn, affinity, gds, boggles, lantern)
more 1 mana counter spells (spell pierce, spell snare, dispel)
pact of negation (control decks)
4th brutality (burn)
more fatal push (humans, elves)
2nd or 3rd leyline of the sanctity (burn, gds)
Damping Sphere (storm, tron, amulet)
Field of Ruin/Ghost quarter (tron, valakut, u/x control, jeskai control)
Search of Azcanta (control)
surgical extraction (tron, combo)
grafdigger's cage (collected company decks, snapcaster, storm)
First cards I'd cut to tune sb would be hurkyl's recall (your affinity and lantern matchups are already great, ironworks isn't that popular), dispel (control matchups are out of this world already)
As before, play the deck when Affinity, control, mardu pyromancer, and other graveyard centric decks are high). Don't play it when gds, burn, fast combo, humans are high.
Typical sideboard plan for Humans:
+2 dismember, +1 EE, +3 Collective Brutality, +1 Fatal Push.
-2 Spell Pierce, -3 Street Wraith, -1 AoW, -1 Spell Snare (or AoW, depending on play/draw).
You can cut a lot of creatures because typically if you wrath and even get 1 creature out of it you are in a great position to win the game.
I really up the spot removal as they are very weak to it, especially when combined with sweepers as it puts them in a position to choose between overplaying or holding back. The game plan is to sweep as soon as possible but the art comes into which creatures to hold your spot removal for. They only have temporary ways to remove your plan (meddling mage, freebooter) so obviously those are big targets but usually not until the turn you can go off. Trade your life points for time and resources (typically most games I win I'm between 1-5 life). Rarely do I kill a 1 drop unless I really think it will buy me more than 1 turn or if I need a turn 3 or 4 living end to win and that depends on what is in your hand and what they are dropping on turn 2. Typically I'm actually willing to take 1 or 2 damage from the 1 drop on their turn 2 if they haven't played their 2nd turn creature yet to get better information of where to point the fatal push/dismember. EE almost always goes on 2 unless it's getting massive card advantage on 1.
Other (sometimes odd opinions). I honestly think rest in peace is possible the worst sideboard card against me and absolutely love to see almost any opponent play it (it's a discard spell for me, it's a huge tempo advantage, it guarantees all my living ends are wraths, 2nd living end won't give my opponent creatures). I see affinity players play that card against me and honestly I'm bewildered, affinities best card is ravager and rest in peace is literally a card I'd side in if I had access to it vs. affinity.
Hardcasting Curator on turn 4 happens a lot.
Thanks for sharing your data. Based on your deck configuration, I can understand why your win percentages are what they are with the exception of these two. I would think your Mardu matchup isn't this good and your Grixis matchup isn't this bad. I'd be curious to hear more about the Mardu matchup and what has lead to such results.
I've had success playing 2x Echoing Truth in the slot typically dedicated to Hurkyl's Recall. Echoing Truth is more versatile, it gives you the effect you want versus Ensnaring Bridge prison decks while providing additional help against troublesome permanents such as Chalice of the Void or Meddling Mage.
Additionally, I wouldn't recommend cutting down on Dispel in your current configuration, especially only having access to three one-mana counterspells in the main deck. Setting control matchups aside, Dispel is great in the Storm matchup and it has plenty of other applications against decks like Burn, Goryo's variants.
This is interesting. I noticed that your list does feel more controlling with the Search for Azcanta and the Nimble Obstructionist in the mainboard. I suppose there's no arguing with your results, but I do question how good Search for Azcanta is in this deck, even as a 1-of. I don't believe that the effect is necessary in our good G1 matchups and I think the card does not help in the bad G1 matchups. Also, I would imagine that you sideboard it out frequently since most decks will be looking to turn off your graveyard in post-board games. Disclaimer: I've never tested the card out personally as I believe in taking a more combo-focused approach with the deck.
I completely agree here. Rest in Peace allows you to focus only on the battlefield and control the flow of the game easier. Your Living Ends are more clean X for 1s and since you almost always can out-card advantage opponents, you run them out of resources and win the game. Your coming to this conclusion speaks to how many reps you have with the deck, which I can appreciate.
Are you looking to tune the deck or are you comfortable as is with your current list?
I actually feel like this isn't that surprising. Most creature decks without a lot of interaction and disruption are good matchups. Mardu Pyromancer falls into this category. This is drastically different than GDS as they have abundant discard, counter magic, and cheap efficient threats. I do believe that the GDS matchup is probably not quite as bad as it is showing on the spreatsheet. I haven't played it lately as it is falling off in popularity and I don't believe I have the optimal play strategy down against it yet. They typically run limited countermagic game 1 so I think the strategy game 1 is actually different than game 2. Also I've upped to 4 leyline's which I didn't have for a majority of the matches against GDS so that will probably help.
I'm not sure which list you are looking at (perhaps my 5-0 league list from mtgo.com?) but the one posted here no longer runs search for azcanta in the 75 (I replaced the md one with a md EE). Nimble Obstructionist is good against a lot of odd strategies and decent against the decks that you are not good against (storm, tron, humans). It also has a small psychological effect where if an opponent sees it once they often play different from that point on. Therefore, even if you sb it out you can still get a positive effect from it.
I'll give Echoing Truth a try, the reasons you suggested seem fair.
I'm always trying to continuing tuning and finding different solutions. I've tried a lot of different variants and am pretty confident in that the list I have is pretty close to being top notch.
It's worth nothing that the Jeskai control matchups is evolving. They are adding more Vendellion Cliques which combined with Jace is actually a pretty bad combination. Actually Jace in general with any sort of counter magic at all is pretty hard to overcome. I believe that matchup used we used to try to be simply the control player, however it's morphed a little bit to you needing to put a little proactive pressure and to be very careful around their 4th turn.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
So over time I've seen that the main problem of our deck is the disrupt, this ends up with our combo in a way that sometimes we can not recover, so I found little just 1x Leyline of Sanctity., I usually use 3x of SB.
I really need to test my build against Mardu, Hollow One and Humans.
Yesterday I made 3-1 in the regular championship:
1-2 Jeskai Control: (The match against the Jeskai was due to a problem we had as far as the opposing player taking advantage of the judge is not present and requesting that the phase transition be reverted. Anyway, that made me extremely angry at him for using it in bad faith.)
2-0 Grixis DS: (Game was very quiet, in the game 1x I was saved by Bojuka and E.E)
2-1 Boogles: (Game was very easy)
2-0 Ponza: (Game was very easy)
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
Knowing when to play As Foretold is important. It is generally a good idea against non-blue decks to cast As Foretold only when you are guaranteed to get some value from either Ancestral Vision or Living End.
It's hard to make definitive statements about play lines with the deck, but I think it's pretty safe to say it's usually correct to suspend Ancestral Vision on turn one (play or draw) if you have it in your opening hand.
I rarely sideboard out cycle creatures unless I'm bringing in some number of Nimble Obstructionist from the sideboard. I leave in all four copies of Curator of Mysteries, Street Wraith and Striped Riverwinder in almost all matchups. For me, sideboarding involves changing my configuration of countermagic, spot removal and utility spells. It's important to keep that base of 12 cyclers. In addition to serving as your win conditions, these cards help you dig through your deck to not only find As Foretold but your critically important sideboard cards.
Good! It's important to do this, but it's also important to recognize when you find configurations that work for you. Sometimes "tuning" means going over your sideboard plan for each matchup and thinking of how to best leverage your 75 to give you the best 60 cards on the play and on the draw.
On the subject of tuning, I'd be interested to hear about how you arrived at your manabase configuration. I'm no expert by any means, but I have some ideas I'd like to offer you, especially related to your manabase.
I used to run the same 2/1 split between Ghost Quarter and Field of Ruin. I think the deck creator, Hazzzard1310, even ran Ghost Quarter as a 1-of at some point. I've since cut Ghost Quarter in favor of the third copy of Field of Ruin.
Since we are a 4x Tolaria West deck, many people use this fact to justify the presence of Ghost Quarter. The idea that you can situationally transmute for Ghost Quarter seems appealing, but I've found that this rarely comes up in practice. First, when transmuting, it is incredibly rare to prioritize a land destruction effect over one of our powerhouse targets in Living End, Ancestral Vision or Bojuka Bog. In the exceptionally rare case that we actually want the land destruction effect, Field of Ruin is just as good as Ghost Quarter in the majority of those scenarios.
With Ghost Quarter, setting yourself back a land is often a real drawback. Think about the Tron matchup. It may seem advantageous to be able to Ghost Quarter the opponent off a Tron land on turns 1-2 (where you wouldn't be able to activate Field of Ruin), but the time you buy yourself is mitigated by the fact that you've essentially lost a turn and you're that much further from gaining control over the game. (The presence of Remand and Spell Pierce in the deck should protect us from getting run over early from Tron.) Tron cares less about having Tron early against us since they play a more midrange game post board anyway, so Ghost Quarter is oddly more of a liability against them than anything else.
One of the nice things about Field of Ruin is that is fixes mana, thins the decks and disrupts the opponent at the same time. Outside of Curator of Mysteries, we don't use scry effects in the deck (or at least we shouldn't!), so shuffling the library has minimal downside. Removing a land out of the deck, when combined with all of our cycling, adds up and increases our changes of finding As Foretold. I think it's justifiable to play Ghost Quarter when using it alongside Surgical Extraction. If you're not, then I think Field of Ruin is the better fit for the deck.
Match 1: 1-2 vs Jund, He took game 1 because I couldn't find a violent outburst, I took game 2 very quickly and game 3 I beat myself by playing a blood moon and him landing a lily. I can definetly beat this match up, I just need to fix the sideboard a little. I think blood moon is asking a little too much out of this deck.
Match 2: 0-2, vs KCI, this deck is very hard to deal with and he ending up not losing all night and 2-0 everyone
Match 3: 2-0 vs UW control, game 1 I swung for 23 damage on turn 4 then game 2 we played a more of a control variant but I was able to ricochet trap his cryptic for the win
Match 4: 2-1 vs eldrazi tron, game 1 he won but the next two games I was able to chew is chalices away and land a living end.
Here is the deck I played
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Desert Cerodon
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Nimble Obstructionist
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Architects of Will
Enchantment (3)
3 As Foretold
Instant (10)
3 Cryptic Command
2 Disallow
1 Supreme Will
4 Violent Outburst
3 Living End
Land (21)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon
3 Dismember
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Ricochet Trap
I was really happy with the deck all night, I think the sideboard could use a little tinkering but as a whole the deck was consistent and alot of fun. I know the card as foretold isn't as interactive as the mono blue version but after using it once in a game, it makes the opponent a little more cautious when you have counters present in the deck.