I think if I were to play the 4 SSG I would also include Blood Moon at least in the sideboard.
Until people stop trying these greedy 3, 4 and 5 color mana bases, it's just as much of a free win as Chalice in the proper matches. Heck, play leylines and we're getting close to becoming a Free Win Blue deck, I just don't think Ensnaring bridge will ever fit here, haha.
I'm still not sure 4 SSG in the deck can help more than they'll hurt. Of course on the opening 7, on the play with Chalice on hand they will feel great, or pumping an As Foretold t2 and then using AV, but keep track of the times they've been a wasted card in hand instead of a cycler/interaction.
I don't think I'll be able to test it soon, I find it an interesting alternative, but don't own Chalices online and don't want to spend that money on MTGO, and I barely play paper nowadays
I think if I were to play the 4 SSG I would also include Blood Moon at least in the sideboard.
Until people stop trying these greedy 3, 4 and 5 color mana bases, it's just as much of a free win as Chalice in the proper matches. Heck, play leylines and we're getting close to becoming a Free Win Blue deck, I just don't think Ensnaring bridge will ever fit here, haha.
I'm still not sure 4 SSG in the deck can help more than they'll hurt. Of course on the opening 7, on the play with Chalice on hand they will feel great, or pumping an As Foretold t2 and then using AV, but keep track of the times they've been a wasted card in hand instead of a cycler/interaction.
I don't think I'll be able to test it soon, I find it an interesting alternative, but don't own Chalices online and don't want to spend that money on MTGO, and I barely play paper nowadays
In my own testing of SSG, i found 3 is an ok number.
Apart from Xexen's list of SSG advantages he cited earlier (and he did really well on MD chalices), I found SSG was not always a dead card because it was helpful not just in speeding up your gameplay by a turn which can be crucial, it also helped me hard cast my creatures as well. SSG wasn't a dead card in a many situations based on my own experience and so far I'm ok with 3 copies in my chalice build.
I think if I were to play the 4 SSG I would also include Blood Moon at least in the sideboard.
Until people stop trying these greedy 3, 4 and 5 color mana bases, it's just as much of a free win as Chalice in the proper matches. Heck, play leylines and we're getting close to becoming a Free Win Blue deck, I just don't think Ensnaring bridge will ever fit here, haha.
I'm still not sure 4 SSG in the deck can help more than they'll hurt. Of course on the opening 7, on the play with Chalice on hand they will feel great, or pumping an As Foretold t2 and then using AV, but keep track of the times they've been a wasted card in hand instead of a cycler/interaction.
I don't think I'll be able to test it soon, I find it an interesting alternative, but don't own Chalices online and don't want to spend that money on MTGO, and I barely play paper nowadays
In my own testing of SSG, i found 3 is an ok number.
Apart from Xexen's list of SSG advantages he cited earlier (and he did really well on MD chalices), I found SSG was not always a dead card because it was helpful not just in speeding up your gameplay by a turn which can be crucial, it also helped me hard cast my creatures as well. SSG wasn't a dead card in a many situations based on my own experience and so far I'm ok with 3 copies in my chalice build.
See this is kind of the problem I have with these directions for deck building. Obviously *every* deck would benefit from doing whatever it needs to do a turn earlier. However control decks, aggro decks midrange decks and some types of critical mass combo decks all need to have consistent and synergistic draws throughout the game, making cards like spirit guide only good for decks looking to win with a single powerful spell (breach decks for example) or with good enough card-power otherwise to mitigate the atrocious card quality and dead draws that spirit guide or chalice gives you (eldrazi).
The mistake I see people making is trying these deck building ideas, having them work in some situations, then believing them to be a worthwhile direction. I've seen the guide/chalice discussions rage across scapeshift, turns, eldrazi Tron, UR breach, amulet titan and many more. In almost every instance spirit guide has been subpar but a decent finish from a player running the card will always spawn copycats for a month or so until they lose enough times to quit the deck.
Ask yourself, as a control/combo deck relying on multiple pieces and angles coming together to compete in modern, why do you think running upwards of 7 dead topdecks is acceptable? So you can occasionally spike a turn 2 as foretold? Spirit guide has no synergy with living end and doesn't come back. Chalice is a reasonable turn one play (if you get the nut draw) but what happens if you draw it on turn three? What happens when you draw a dead spirit guide a turn later? I'm not cherry picking either, this will happen to varying degrees in most games if you run 7 cards like these in your deck. Those two 'lost' draws will be enough for an opponent to leverage their gameplan against you in most situations in modern.
Again I totally understand what chalice does. I realise it's generically good in the format. My question was why on earth are you trying to play it here? We have neither the card quality nor the game winning bomb aspect of eldrazi or decks like ad nauseam. And another aspect to this is our own combo. What's the advantage of playing a turn 2 As Foretold when ypu wouldn't even have anything to reanimate besides perhaps one cycled creature? I've seen the "gets under counterspells" argument but I don't buy it. That only works if you're on the play which will be at best about 50% of the time. On the draw you'll still be facing two lands from a blue opponent and all manner of potential blowouts if you run two cards into a mana leak, logic knot or spell pierce. Even a remand is a nightmare scenario if you're exiting an SSG to cast your spell early. They draw a card, you exile a card and waste your turn.
So, it's been a while since I haven't done one of these, but here I come: tournament report from GP Lyon, which was already one week ago.
I won't go in detail of my matchs, but instead I'll just show you 3 different lists: my disatrous day 1, the PTQ of day 2, and the final optimized list I came up with.
So... this was the list I brought to the GP, and piloted to an heart wrenching 1-4-drop (affinity 1-2, eldrazi Tron 2-0, Abzan Counters Company 1-2, GW Counters Company 1-2, 5 colors Allies 0-2).
I was completly demoralized by these defeats. Despite the awful match-ups besides Tron, I felt that besides the deck not being the best metagame call, it was flawed by conception: it was a mashup of Living End and UW control, just worst at what the both of them are doing.
However, after a friend of mine kocked some sense into me, I realised that it wasn't the archetype's fault, but my take on it which was far too gimmicky relying on Tolaria West eventually losing a lot of speed and consistency. Plus, my piloting wasn't good either: the deck is a combo deck, not a control one. Its control tools are here to protect the combo, and you've got to play proactively and be the aggressive deck to win.
So, we reworked the deck and came up with this instead for the PTQ which came the day after. The only "gimmick" still in the deck is engineered explosive... but the card is so good against every matchup that I don't think I'll ever remove it from the mainboard. Here it is:
This time, I went 2-3-1: Affinity 1-2, GB Tron 0-2 (my first loss against tron with the archetype, ***** happens I guess?), Bant Eldrazi 2-1, Abzan Midrange 2-1, UR Storm 0-2, Grixis Control 1-1, drawing g3 and Luis Salvatto'ing g1 because I stupidly forgot to remove my sideboard after the previous match.
While this doesn't look like a major improvement, the deck really felt good to play when compared to the day before: I wouldn't have won the games I lost with the other decks I considered bringing to the tournament and I could finally understand the deck after 2 months playing it. I could find other issues the new version had and correct them in my last iteration of the deck (mainly consistency, I drew half of the deck without finding a missing combo piece twice).
Here it is:
This version feels amazing and do not seem to have the flaws of the previous iterations. I really underestimated Search for Azcanta: the card is even better in this deck than in any other, and that's only when taking into considerations its first half! I wouldn't play more than two, though. Same goes for JTMS: if I ever was to play him, it would be at Azcanta's spot. I don't think we can run both, but either one is good enough to consider. I do think playing more than two Jaces isn't interesting, as you're likely to draw more than half of your deck in the games which need his presence to close a game.
Also, something I forgot to mention: I am indeed running an esper list, for path is stellar and it's always good to be able to cast your own creatures/suspend Living End (yes, you heard that right). Plus, having access to Collective Brutality in the sideboard is really good.
On another note, I am thinking about starting to stream using the deck (first on Xmage, then on MTGO when I'll have the money required to purchase the deck there (probably in April)). Are you interested in it? If so, let me know. I would do it on week end afternoons, and evening during the week (France time, which is UTC+1).
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Modern Death and Taxes (not Eldrazi&Taxes)
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
I’ve played this deck through a bunch of leagues both friendly and competitive and I am convinced it has to play white for path. I have a 39-21 record over 60 games with 7 3-2s, 2 4-1s and 1 1-4/5-0. I had a little more success before the unbannings changed the meta. This is the list I’ve been playing:
The deck has been near flawless against UW Control (4-1), Affinity (2-0) and Pyromancer decks (5-0). While also very good against Tron(4-3) and Various decks (10-5). My Tron numbers feel like they should be better than the record shows. It has struggled against Jund (2-3) and RG Eldrazi (0-2). Traverse Jund(0-2) has been awful where as BBE Jund has been okay (2-1). I don’t have enough data against other decks I’ve played to really have a good idea what the match ups are other than my opinion.
I have been very impressed with Field of Ruin, it has been incredible at mana fixing and keeping opponents from taking over with lands.
I have the single colonnade as a west target, but the deck can’t afford more etb tapped lands so it’s only 1. Nimble Obstructionist was dropped for Clique before the unbannings and clique has been very good. I just hated cycling OR playing obstructionist and clique is always a threat that can be used offensively or defensively. I might try nimble again with the new triggers. I also have the land in board over crypt due to its interaction with cryptic command and it’s inability To be targeted by discard.
Glassdusk Hulk is over architect of will due to being castable and cyclable by all mana in the deck. It also has the added benefit of dodging bolt and push.
This deck has been very strong for me and in nearly every game I’ve played. I feel like it is in a great place in the meta. I would like to try Jace main over Azcanta and chalice/explosives side but haven’t yet due to cost.
An alternative to playing white could be reality shift. They can always flip it if it's a creature but it can potentially screw them over a land or a spell and won't mana ramp them.
Can be convienent with architects of will to manipulate their library.
The first contact with the iteration As Foretold x Living End, was found in the list of 1310hazzard (5-0), and I have been using it since January 2018 in the FNM of life.
I already had a traditional version of the Living End (Jund), but it was very fast though it was very hateful.
I saw that this deck has a huge advantage against: Big Mana, Control and some mid range, however, it suffers a lot for extremely fast decks and with many discards, to be able to handle the environment that I play, I am using the following list:
I'm having a lot of problems with deck that contains discard. However I do not think it is very feasible to use leyline, because if it does not come, it complicates the field.
Honestly, I'd rather put on the main 1x Spell Snare and 1x Ratchet Bomb, so I have more diversity in dealing with 1-2 mana cost threats.
Also against very fast decks: Jund, Grixis DS, Humans, Affinity.
Any suggestion?
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Modern: UB Living End as Foretold R Skred Dragons CKCI
I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Mono U version isn't competitive. However, we cannot deny that both the black and white splashes are far too good to be ignored.
Path is just that powerful, even more so in a deck that isn't going to lose the value war by giving lands to its opponent... and deeply cares about its opponent's graveyard.
Stony Silence was, is, and will always be great against an awful lot of decks (one of them being one of the hardest matchups we have, affinity). The other aggro decks can either be dealt with Torpor Orb or slow enough so we can control them. But even the splashs/sideboard tech won't bring these match-ups back to positive winrates. The black splash shouldn't be minimized either, as Collective Brutalityis crazy good at getting value out of our cyclers. Plus, it allowed me to suspend Living End and win games I wasn't supposed to win... Also, it makes Bojuka Bog a bit more relevant.
I'll probably start streaming my games on Twitch next week, using Xmage (under the same username), hopefully that'll help us gather more data on how to improve the deck. My last iteration of the deck feels like an optimized list, but my sample of games isn't wide enough yet...
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Modern Death and Taxes (not Eldrazi&Taxes)
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
I certainly don't agree with the this.
The white splash can help in some matches, but saying we NEED Settle the wreckage is ridiculous. I love that card, but we certainly don't need a conditional sweeper that costs 2WW, even if it exiles (and don't forget the ramping, it can be very disadvantageous).
Path is nice, condemn has the problem that it doesn't handle non-attacking creatures like electromancer/baral/Devoted Druid.
Which matchups do you feel are so bad that you need to pack a lot of extra creature removal? Humans, sure, unless we get to living end t3 and they don't meddling mage it before. But remember that all these cards dilute the gameplan.
For the white sideboard cards, Stony silence is not enough for me, Rest in peace would be, but it's awful for us obviously. Being able to cast leylines, maybe, but I think leylines hurt more than they help.
So, just saying, I don't find the UW version more competitive than mono U, at all. And every result ever obtained by this archetype (to my knowledge at least) has been with mono U lists, so your statement seems a bit radical. I'm not dismissing UW, but it certainly hasn't proven itself better than any other version.
I certainly don't agree with the this.
The white splash can help in some matches, but saying we NEED Settle the wreckage is ridiculous. I love that card, but we certainly don't need a conditional sweeper that costs 2WW, even if it exiles (and don't forget the ramping, it can be very disadvantageous).
Path is nice, condemn has the problem that it doesn't handle non-attacking creatures like electromancer/baral/Devoted Druid.
Which matchups do you feel are so bad that you need to pack a lot of extra creature removal? Humans, sure, unless we get to living end t3 and they don't meddling mage it before. But remember that all these cards dilute the gameplan.
For the white sideboard cards, Stony silence is not enough for me, Rest in peace would be, but it's awful for us obviously. Being able to cast leylines, maybe, but I think leylines hurt more than they help.
So, just saying, I don't find the UW version more competitive than mono U, at all. And every result ever obtained by this archetype (to my knowledge at least) has been with mono U lists, so your statement seems a bit radical. I'm not dismissing UW, but it certainly hasn't proven itself better than any other version.
Before my first post here (the one with the three different decklists), I iterated around 3 versions: Mono U, Ub, and Uw. I do agree with the first part of your comment, but have to disagree (but only a bit) with what follows...
Let me explain my point of view: many still misunderstand the true nature of the deck, and tend to build/play it like a control deck... which it isn't. It is still, at core, a combo deck which goal is to put pressure on the opponent, not respond to the opponent's pressure. It can be played like that obviously, but from experience combo hands are always better than control ones.
Which brings us back to today's topic: the mono U version is clearly the more epurated/combo version of the deck. However, due to the nature of our combo, we require tons of control elements to survive/protect our win conditions. And, in my opinion, the mono U version of Living Blue don't have the same amount of flexibility the splash versions have... Which is an issue. It worsens bad MU, as it helps with the already good ones. That by itself should be alright if the deck wasn't so polarized in the first place, being really strong against slow decks and absurdly bad against really fast decks like our favorite boogey(hu)man...
Sticking to mono U only restrict our options, especially since Blue is the worst color there is when it comes to sideboards. But you're still right: after the short time under the spotlight the mono U version had, no other versions pulled out their weight on tournaments... I did get my ass handed to me at GP Lyon after all.
So, tl/dr: a mono U core is always better, but small splashs are really important. For exemple, my last iteration only plays 3 copies of path MB and 2 Brutalities SB with a copy of Engineered Explosives MB, that card is absurd with Tolaria West (and I'll probably hate myself quite often for not using Stony Silence). It doesn't need more than this, but it wouldn't be as effective without.
[edit] I also agree with you about the leylines, but mainly because I hate sacrifying 4 sideboard slots for a single card...
I certainly don't agree with the this.
The white splash can help in some matches, but saying we NEED Settle the wreckage is ridiculous. I love that card, but we certainly don't need a conditional sweeper that costs 2WW, even if it exiles (and don't forget the ramping, it can be very disadvantageous).
Path is nice, condemn has the problem that it doesn't handle non-attacking creatures like electromancer/baral/Devoted Druid.
Which matchups do you feel are so bad that you need to pack a lot of extra creature removal? Humans, sure, unless we get to living end t3 and they don't meddling mage it before. But remember that all these cards dilute the gameplan.
For the white sideboard cards, Stony silence is not enough for me, Rest in peace would be, but it's awful for us obviously. Being able to cast leylines, maybe, but I think leylines hurt more than they help.
So, just saying, I don't find the UW version more competitive than mono U, at all. And every result ever obtained by this archetype (to my knowledge at least) has been with mono U lists, so your statement seems a bit radical. I'm not dismissing UW, but it certainly hasn't proven itself better than any other version.
Couple of things:
1) this is a new deck. Guess which lists are going to be the more successful ones at the beginning of a deck's journey; yep, almost without exception it will be minor iterations on the initial brew which started the ball rolling and put the deck on the map. People aren't going to universally and independantly all tune a rough diamond of a deck into a tweaked perfect machine, they'll just play the last version that got any kind of result. It takes a long time for a fringe deck to successfully iterate up to the point where it is properly tuned and competitive. Maybe up to a year or more. Then of course you need some people willing to take a punt on a fringe strategy, and then a lot of luck for them to get a decent finish, before sheepy results-obsessed players will even take a second glance.
My point is, this deck has just a handful of results to its name, all of them basically the 'initial build' with little or no innovation. At this stage that core variant wasn't enough to break into the mainstream of modern so in order to simply *be* competitive the deck needs to be tuned and refined by using what we know about the format in terms of speed, threats, ways to stabilise, weaknesses in the deck etc.
The mono U list is an enticing starting point with great potential but I sense you (and others maybe?) have grown too attached to this rough initial starting point and are 'digging in' and refusing to innovate. Currently the deck isn't competitive, so the situation kind of speaks for itself. Innovate or die, basically.
2) what makes this all easier is that, certainly on the face of things, the core engine of the deck, what it's trying to do, is very powerful for the format of modern. There's a shining powerful deck in there and all it may take to release the beast is to juggle the supporting cards around a bit in order to attack the deck's specific weaknesses (such as the inclusion of path to exile in the maindeck).
Now, settle the wreckage is an interesting card but probably a bit slow. You didn't need to latch onto it in your quoted post, the guy you were responding to was just saying we needed access to those kinds of effects, not that the deck needed settle specifically. I'm inclined to think that the quicker one and two mana interaction options are what will enable this deck to be more competitive as we already have the turn 3-4 sweeper aspect covered pretty well.
3) a splash in this deck is essentially free. I mean, we probably play 2x jace in this deck as standard since the unban, right? We can play him and sweep the board all in the same turn: no other deck in modern can reliably do the same. Jace needs fetchlands, so at that point you've got a free splash.
4) my own experience is that we *need* two black sources in the deck for those times when the 'secret mode' of street wraith becomes relevant (actually casting the damn thing). As such I run 1x bojuka bog (tutorable of course) and 1x watery grave as the fetchable source. This has opened up the sideboard to 2 or 3x collective brutality which is a great, powerful tool for us to attack several decks.
As for the white splash I kept it slim with 1x hallowed fountain, 3x seachrome coast and 1x mystic Gate.
I've been running just 4x fetches. It's been fine so far. Could go up to six fetches maybe but I haven't felt colour screwed yet after quite a lot of time running back the same list.
I run 3x maindeck path. I also run a further one-mana interaction boost maindeck of 1x spell snare, 1x spell pierce, backed up by a compliment of two-mana interaction in the form of 3x remand and 1x mana leak.
In the sideboard i've appreciated having access to the following:
2x meddling mage (the super secret tech here. People side out removal against you, combo decks don't bring it in. It's a perfect opportunity to completely blindside storm, ad naus and such. Works really well & has given me a lot of free wins)
4x leyline of sanctity (whether you're a fan or not it's an insane effect and works well here in a deck which can routinely back it up with a quick sweeper and large threats)
2x Stony silence (just bonkers. One of the main reasons to run white altogether)
And that's actually it. I don't get cute with the splash. I play the most powerful possible effects and don't go overboard. Path maindeck and a sprinkle of some of the best sideboard options is as far as I'd go. It definitely helps the deck compete in a wider meta from my testing and comparisons.
But that's just my own anecdotal testing. I'm not an oracle. I know 'tuning' pretty well, you could even say its my forté, but don't accept what I say blindly. Go and test what I'm saying and hopefully rack up a few decent results. That's how a deck like this survives.
If it doesn't quite work out, try something else. Don't dismiss the need to innovate based just on a scattering of initial results the deck threw up when it had its moment in the sun.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
So random question but does idyllic tutor have in place in the 60? I have been getting screwed getting as foretold lately and i have been contemplating a copy or two.
I really like the idea of a black splash to hard cast stuff and for a card or two sb but not going overboard.
What does your full sb look like? I have been having trouble with the last few slots. I feel like 4x leyline, 2x stony, 2-4x gy hate(I use macabre), 3x a mix of spell snare/spell pierce. That still leaves 2-4 slots open. The meddling mage tech seems interesting but I’m not sure it’s not to cute. But I haven’t played anything but storm more than a couple games.
Also how many lands does this deck need to play vs how many cyclers? I don’t think that obstructionist counts as a cycler for this application as it costs to much to dig for lands. I was playing 21 lands, 13 cyclers, but I was continuously having to dig for lands to make drops on time. I’ve increased to 22, and it has been a lot better. But I see a lot of lists at 20. I am curious how many lands people think should be played. As a control deck with a combo finish it’s really important that we hit land drops at least up to 4 and the way I play I really need to hit up to 6 pretty consistently.
Edit: Also, what are the cycler numbers? I’d been playing glasshulk of a two of due to it being castable and dodging push/bolt. But if I were to add a grave I could see going back to architect. And every time I play more than 3x street wraith it just seems bad.
So random question but does idyllic tutor have in place in the 60? I have been getting screwed getting as foretold lately and i have been contemplating a copy or two.
I don’t think it does. However, Drift of Phantasms may. It’s strictly better due to being in our main color, being uncounterable and putting a dude in the yard for end. I think a 1-2x would be worth testing, I haven’t tried it yet personally but I can see the argument for it. Others in this thread have tried and discussed its merits though.
That was exactly my point, I was not bashing splashes at all, but the statement that "mono U is not competitive, we NEED white for x, y, z"
I was one of the firsts here to say I loved a couple of Sunken Ruins on top of the Bog to actually cast the Wraiths, even suspend Living end once or twice, and play the Collective Brutalities in the sideboard, plus giving engineered explosives a better use (colorless and more reliable 2 color). I tried River of Tears as well, and some fetches/shocklands + fatal push.
I also said I didn't try the white splash. Path seems useful, but before trying a splash I wanted to give Reality Shift a go first since I figured it might get the job done decently enough. Fetch-Shocking once is already 3 damage if it comes to that, that is a lot of times underestimated. I've never played with "manifest" so I don't know how often the downside is relevant, not ramping the opponent seemed nice, costing 2 obviously didn't, haha.
Wrapping up, I don't dismiss any splash, what I'm playing and calling monoU has the black "splash" since it is really as close to free as it gets, and collective brutality is great.
White splash, red splash, I'm all in favor of trying things. Again, my reply was to the guy dismissing monoU and claiming the white splash was needed.
I like the "Esper" with small black and white touches, since I don't think I would want to lose the free black splash to run white.
Doesn't Seachrome Coast bother you coming into play tapped? Glacial Fortress might work if you're still running a significant number of islands. I think you didn't play a lot of Cryptics so that might make it less hard, but I'm already annoyed from time to time at having 4 Tolaria West and 1 Bojuka Bog coming in tapped to risk more lands comming in tapped before getting to 4 mana.
Edit: Sorry about the poorly written post, haha. I wrote it during different breaks while at work, and I just read it all together and it was a pain
What does your full sb look like? I have been having trouble with the last few slots. I feel like 4x leyline, 2x stony, 2-4x gy hate(I use macabre), 3x a mix of spell snare/spell pierce. That still leaves 2-4 slots open. The meddling mage tech seems interesting but I’m not sure it’s not to cute. But I haven’t played anything but storm more than a couple games.
I have the same doubt. My main deck list is very consistent and I don't wanna change, but I'm having doubts about my sb, especially in gy hate. For now I'm using 4x Leyline of the void, but I already tested Tormod's crypt, and now thinking to test Macabre. What I think is: gy hate only makes sense in the beginning of the game. If you draw a Macabre or Tormod's in your 5º turn against dredge ur are probably already dead. So, its a dead card like Leyline in the late game. If I need a gy in the beginning, the best option is Leyline. But I can be worng. I wanna know your thoughts.
I have the same doubt. My main deck list is very consistent and I don't wanna change, but I'm having doubts about my sb, especially in gy hate. For now I'm using 4x Leyline of the void, but I already tested Tormod's crypt, and now thinking to test Macabre. What I think is: gy hate only makes sense in the beginning of the game. If you draw a Macabre or Tormod's in your 5º turn against dredge ur are probably already dead. So, its a dead card like Leyline in the late game. If I need a gy in the beginning, the best option is Leyline. But I can be worng. I wanna know your thoughts.
I asking about purklefluff’s list, sorry to be unclear. However, I think there’s some good stuff to talk about here. How much do you get stuck on lands only running 20?
I love the macabre, they can go in against a lot of decks. Like I wouldn’t really want leylines in against company combo decks, but having a macabre to snipe their combo pieces or mute a eternal witness is great. It also is good at sniping snapcaster targets leading to misplays. Dredge and all in gy decks are on the downswing right now, so I’m kinda hedging my board there. If they become big again I could see using leyline, but macabre is super versitile and comes back with living end. I side them in all the time.
I played some more and went 0-4 in one FNM into 3-0 the next. Matchups can be a bit lopsided and I didn't play all that well. I have to admit that Jace, while great, is too often not great in a matchup (anything aggro, really) and should also be boarded out in those matchups, which I inititally didn't do for testing purposes. The deck also draws so many cards that 2 Jace seems sufficient. Cutting a path to make room for those Jaces was also a mistake so that was an easy fix by just swapping path/jace from the SB.
One thing I am sure about is that this deck doesn't want Street Wraith. The deck is way too slow and controlly to justify paying 2 life for such a marginal creature/effect. Instead, I went up to 21 lands and am playing Glassdust Hulk. It's nice to dodge push/bolt and be able to cycle for white. The ability of Architects of Will never seemed very relevant to me as we have better ways to control the opponent than to reorder the top 3 cards of their deck and the creature itself sucks.
This is my list now, which I just 3-0'd with against Bogles, Ponza and Zoo.
In all games I've played so far I never wanted to suspend Living End. It would never be relevant and the white cards are way more impactful than the black. I definitely view this deck as a control deck with an unusual win con. If I had it, I'd play a 2nd Obstructionist over the 2nd Glassdust Hulk. I've never played the mono-U version but I don't see the upside with a significantly worse SB and only 3 white cards MD.
Also I put 1 Ratchet Bomb, to be able to deal with threats of cost 1 and cost 2.
The Vendillion Clique, was excellent, because it gave me besides another creature to play in the pass of the opponent's turn, still carry out that situational removal, I found very good, and it puts a lot of pressure.
1-1 vs UW Humans
1-1 vs BW Eldrazi
2x0 vs Death and Taxes
I didn't have the chance to test Macabre because the matches didn't ask for that. But I'm really thinking to use 3x Macabre and 1x Dispel instead 4x Leyline of the Void because I don't use black mana so I need to mull until get a Leyline or need to keep a bad hand just because the Leyline came. But and wanna see more opinions about that. It's a important discussion to our deck. What kind of gy you think is best?
Being tricolored really helps with explosives, I actually had someone call a judge to do a decklist check after seing mine mainboard...
I'm on definitively with purklefluff on that one: minor splashes do not hurt, yet bring quite a few really useful tools.
@Bradpt: I'm only using one Bog MB, and one Tormod's crypt in side. It certainly is very low, but that's partly because of metagame calls. With Dominaria leaks I learned about a new sideboard card which is going to help against storm so I am unlikely to move from this set-up. An important thing to mention is that both of them can be tutored by Tolaria West.
Damping Sphere, which wrecks amulet and tron by stoping lands from generating more than 1 mana and Storm by making each spell cost one more for each spell cast by its controler this turn. The only downside is that we'll need 4 mana to do the usual AF into LE turn. I'm not even sure I'll run it though, since Storm can still Wipe Away the poor thing, just like any form of graveyard hate.
Private Mod Note
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Modern Death and Taxes (not Eldrazi&Taxes)
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
What do you guys think of going a little more aggressive on the combo and ditching the mana leaks for Ideas Unbound?
Turn 1 cycle a street wraith with another creature. Turn 2 draw 3 discard 3.
Turn 3 living end with as foretold and reanimate 5-7 creatures and wipe their board.
Yay or nay?
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Until people stop trying these greedy 3, 4 and 5 color mana bases, it's just as much of a free win as Chalice in the proper matches. Heck, play leylines and we're getting close to becoming a Free Win Blue deck, I just don't think Ensnaring bridge will ever fit here, haha.
I'm still not sure 4 SSG in the deck can help more than they'll hurt. Of course on the opening 7, on the play with Chalice on hand they will feel great, or pumping an As Foretold t2 and then using AV, but keep track of the times they've been a wasted card in hand instead of a cycler/interaction.
I don't think I'll be able to test it soon, I find it an interesting alternative, but don't own Chalices online and don't want to spend that money on MTGO, and I barely play paper nowadays
In my own testing of SSG, i found 3 is an ok number.
Apart from Xexen's list of SSG advantages he cited earlier (and he did really well on MD chalices), I found SSG was not always a dead card because it was helpful not just in speeding up your gameplay by a turn which can be crucial, it also helped me hard cast my creatures as well. SSG wasn't a dead card in a many situations based on my own experience and so far I'm ok with 3 copies in my chalice build.
See this is kind of the problem I have with these directions for deck building. Obviously *every* deck would benefit from doing whatever it needs to do a turn earlier. However control decks, aggro decks midrange decks and some types of critical mass combo decks all need to have consistent and synergistic draws throughout the game, making cards like spirit guide only good for decks looking to win with a single powerful spell (breach decks for example) or with good enough card-power otherwise to mitigate the atrocious card quality and dead draws that spirit guide or chalice gives you (eldrazi).
The mistake I see people making is trying these deck building ideas, having them work in some situations, then believing them to be a worthwhile direction. I've seen the guide/chalice discussions rage across scapeshift, turns, eldrazi Tron, UR breach, amulet titan and many more. In almost every instance spirit guide has been subpar but a decent finish from a player running the card will always spawn copycats for a month or so until they lose enough times to quit the deck.
Ask yourself, as a control/combo deck relying on multiple pieces and angles coming together to compete in modern, why do you think running upwards of 7 dead topdecks is acceptable? So you can occasionally spike a turn 2 as foretold? Spirit guide has no synergy with living end and doesn't come back. Chalice is a reasonable turn one play (if you get the nut draw) but what happens if you draw it on turn three? What happens when you draw a dead spirit guide a turn later? I'm not cherry picking either, this will happen to varying degrees in most games if you run 7 cards like these in your deck. Those two 'lost' draws will be enough for an opponent to leverage their gameplan against you in most situations in modern.
Again I totally understand what chalice does. I realise it's generically good in the format. My question was why on earth are you trying to play it here? We have neither the card quality nor the game winning bomb aspect of eldrazi or decks like ad nauseam. And another aspect to this is our own combo. What's the advantage of playing a turn 2 As Foretold when ypu wouldn't even have anything to reanimate besides perhaps one cycled creature? I've seen the "gets under counterspells" argument but I don't buy it. That only works if you're on the play which will be at best about 50% of the time. On the draw you'll still be facing two lands from a blue opponent and all manner of potential blowouts if you run two cards into a mana leak, logic knot or spell pierce. Even a remand is a nightmare scenario if you're exiting an SSG to cast your spell early. They draw a card, you exile a card and waste your turn.
I won't go in detail of my matchs, but instead I'll just show you 3 different lists: my disatrous day 1, the PTQ of day 2, and the final optimized list I came up with.
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Field of Ruin
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
4x Island
1x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Swamp
3x Tolaria West
1x Watery Grave
Creatures
1x Architects of Will
4x Curator of Mysteries
2x Nimble Obstructionist
3x Street Wraith
4x Striped Riverwinder
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Living End
3x Cryptic Command
3x Path to exile
1x Mana Leak
3x Remand
2x Spell Snare
1x Slaughter Pact
Enchantment
4x As Foretold
Artifact
1x Engineered explosives
2x Collective Brutality
1x Detention Sphere
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Swan's song
2x Negate
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod's Crypt
So... this was the list I brought to the GP, and piloted to an heart wrenching 1-4-drop (affinity 1-2, eldrazi Tron 2-0, Abzan Counters Company 1-2, GW Counters Company 1-2, 5 colors Allies 0-2).
I was completly demoralized by these defeats. Despite the awful match-ups besides Tron, I felt that besides the deck not being the best metagame call, it was flawed by conception: it was a mashup of Living End and UW control, just worst at what the both of them are doing.
However, after a friend of mine kocked some sense into me, I realised that it wasn't the archetype's fault, but my take on it which was far too gimmicky relying on Tolaria West eventually losing a lot of speed and consistency. Plus, my piloting wasn't good either: the deck is a combo deck, not a control one. Its control tools are here to protect the combo, and you've got to play proactively and be the aggressive deck to win.
So, we reworked the deck and came up with this instead for the PTQ which came the day after. The only "gimmick" still in the deck is engineered explosive... but the card is so good against every matchup that I don't think I'll ever remove it from the mainboard. Here it is:
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Field of Ruin
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
4x Island
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Swamp
1x Tolaria West
1x Watery Grave
Creatures
2x Architects of Will
4x Curator of Mysteries
1x Nimble Obstructionist
3x Street Wraith
4x Striped Riverwinder
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Living End
2x Cryptic Command
3x Path to exile
1x Mana Leak
4x Remand
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell pierce
Enchantment
4x As Foretold
1x Search for Azcanta
Artifact
1x Engineered explosives
2x Collective Brutality
1x Nimble Obstructionist
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Swan's song
1x Torpor Orb
2x Negate
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod's Crypt
This time, I went 2-3-1: Affinity 1-2, GB Tron 0-2 (my first loss against tron with the archetype, ***** happens I guess?), Bant Eldrazi 2-1, Abzan Midrange 2-1, UR Storm 0-2, Grixis Control 1-1, drawing g3 and Luis Salvatto'ing g1 because I stupidly forgot to remove my sideboard after the previous match.
While this doesn't look like a major improvement, the deck really felt good to play when compared to the day before: I wouldn't have won the games I lost with the other decks I considered bringing to the tournament and I could finally understand the deck after 2 months playing it. I could find other issues the new version had and correct them in my last iteration of the deck (mainly consistency, I drew half of the deck without finding a missing combo piece twice).
Here it is:
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Field of Ruin
3x Flooded Strand
1x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
4x Island
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tolaria West
1x Watery Grave
Creatures
2x Architects of Will
4x Curator of Mysteries
1x Nimble Obstructionist
3x Street Wraith
4x Striped Riverwinder
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Living End
2x Cryptic Command
3x Path to Exile
3x Remand
2x Spell Snare
Enchantment
4x As Foretold
2x Search for Azcanta
Artifact
1x Engineered explosives
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Nimble Obstructionist
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Torpor Orb
This version feels amazing and do not seem to have the flaws of the previous iterations. I really underestimated Search for Azcanta: the card is even better in this deck than in any other, and that's only when taking into considerations its first half! I wouldn't play more than two, though. Same goes for JTMS: if I ever was to play him, it would be at Azcanta's spot. I don't think we can run both, but either one is good enough to consider. I do think playing more than two Jaces isn't interesting, as you're likely to draw more than half of your deck in the games which need his presence to close a game.
Also, something I forgot to mention: I am indeed running an esper list, for path is stellar and it's always good to be able to cast your own creatures/suspend Living End (yes, you heard that right). Plus, having access to Collective Brutality in the sideboard is really good.
On another note, I am thinking about starting to stream using the deck (first on Xmage, then on MTGO when I'll have the money required to purchase the deck there (probably in April)). Are you interested in it? If so, let me know. I would do it on week end afternoons, and evening during the week (France time, which is UTC+1).
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
4 Curator of Mystery
2 Glassdust Hulk
3 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
4 Remand
1 Search for Azcanta
4 As Foretold
4 Cryptic Command
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Field of Ruin
1 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
1 Plains
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Tolaria West
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stony Silence
1 Condemn
4 Leyline of Sanctity
The deck has been near flawless against UW Control (4-1), Affinity (2-0) and Pyromancer decks (5-0). While also very good against Tron(4-3) and Various decks (10-5). My Tron numbers feel like they should be better than the record shows. It has struggled against Jund (2-3) and RG Eldrazi (0-2). Traverse Jund(0-2) has been awful where as BBE Jund has been okay (2-1). I don’t have enough data against other decks I’ve played to really have a good idea what the match ups are other than my opinion.
I have been very impressed with Field of Ruin, it has been incredible at mana fixing and keeping opponents from taking over with lands.
I have the single colonnade as a west target, but the deck can’t afford more etb tapped lands so it’s only 1. Nimble Obstructionist was dropped for Clique before the unbannings and clique has been very good. I just hated cycling OR playing obstructionist and clique is always a threat that can be used offensively or defensively. I might try nimble again with the new triggers. I also have the land in board over crypt due to its interaction with cryptic command and it’s inability To be targeted by discard.
Glassdusk Hulk is over architect of will due to being castable and cyclable by all mana in the deck. It also has the added benefit of dodging bolt and push.
This deck has been very strong for me and in nearly every game I’ve played. I feel like it is in a great place in the meta. I would like to try Jace main over Azcanta and chalice/explosives side but haven’t yet due to cost.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
2 Street Wraith
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
Enchantment
4 As Foretold
Land
3 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Field of Ruin
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
1 Supreme Will
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Living End
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Detention Sphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Condemn
1 Disenchant
1 Negate
Changes:
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Spell Snare
-1 Archetics of Will
+1 Nimble Obstructionist
-1 Flooded Strand
+1 Field of Ruin
UBlue EndU
BAd NauseamB
Can be convienent with architects of will to manipulate their library.
Thoughts?
The first contact with the iteration As Foretold x Living End, was found in the list of 1310hazzard (5-0), and I have been using it since January 2018 in the FNM of life.
I already had a traditional version of the Living End (Jund), but it was very fast though it was very hateful.
I saw that this deck has a huge advantage against: Big Mana, Control and some mid range, however, it suffers a lot for extremely fast decks and with many discards, to be able to handle the environment that I play, I am using the following list:
4 Field of Ruin
10 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures(13)
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Curator of Mysteries
1 Nimble Obstructionist
Planeswalkers(1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 As Foretold
Spells (22)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Remand
3 Living End
3 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Disallow
1 Logic Knot
1 Supreme Will
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Dismember
1 Tormod's Crypt
I'm having a lot of problems with deck that contains discard. However I do not think it is very feasible to use leyline, because if it does not come, it complicates the field.
Honestly, I'd rather put on the main 1x Spell Snare and 1x Ratchet Bomb, so I have more diversity in dealing with 1-2 mana cost threats.
Also against very fast decks: Jund, Grixis DS, Humans, Affinity.
Any suggestion?
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
We have to splash to white to access Path to exile, condemn, Settle the Wreckage and Stony Silence. The Mono Blue version isn't competitive, sorry.
UBlue EndU
BAd NauseamB
Path is just that powerful, even more so in a deck that isn't going to lose the value war by giving lands to its opponent... and deeply cares about its opponent's graveyard.
Stony Silence was, is, and will always be great against an awful lot of decks (one of them being one of the hardest matchups we have, affinity). The other aggro decks can either be dealt with Torpor Orb or slow enough so we can control them. But even the splashs/sideboard tech won't bring these match-ups back to positive winrates. The black splash shouldn't be minimized either, as Collective Brutalityis crazy good at getting value out of our cyclers. Plus, it allowed me to suspend Living End and win games I wasn't supposed to win... Also, it makes Bojuka Bog a bit more relevant.
I'll probably start streaming my games on Twitch next week, using Xmage (under the same username), hopefully that'll help us gather more data on how to improve the deck. My last iteration of the deck feels like an optimized list, but my sample of games isn't wide enough yet...
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
I certainly don't agree with the this.
The white splash can help in some matches, but saying we NEED Settle the wreckage is ridiculous. I love that card, but we certainly don't need a conditional sweeper that costs 2WW, even if it exiles (and don't forget the ramping, it can be very disadvantageous).
Path is nice, condemn has the problem that it doesn't handle non-attacking creatures like electromancer/baral/Devoted Druid.
Which matchups do you feel are so bad that you need to pack a lot of extra creature removal? Humans, sure, unless we get to living end t3 and they don't meddling mage it before. But remember that all these cards dilute the gameplan.
For the white sideboard cards, Stony silence is not enough for me, Rest in peace would be, but it's awful for us obviously. Being able to cast leylines, maybe, but I think leylines hurt more than they help.
So, just saying, I don't find the UW version more competitive than mono U, at all. And every result ever obtained by this archetype (to my knowledge at least) has been with mono U lists, so your statement seems a bit radical. I'm not dismissing UW, but it certainly hasn't proven itself better than any other version.
Before my first post here (the one with the three different decklists), I iterated around 3 versions: Mono U, Ub, and Uw. I do agree with the first part of your comment, but have to disagree (but only a bit) with what follows...
Let me explain my point of view: many still misunderstand the true nature of the deck, and tend to build/play it like a control deck... which it isn't. It is still, at core, a combo deck which goal is to put pressure on the opponent, not respond to the opponent's pressure. It can be played like that obviously, but from experience combo hands are always better than control ones.
Which brings us back to today's topic: the mono U version is clearly the more epurated/combo version of the deck. However, due to the nature of our combo, we require tons of control elements to survive/protect our win conditions. And, in my opinion, the mono U version of Living Blue don't have the same amount of flexibility the splash versions have... Which is an issue. It worsens bad MU, as it helps with the already good ones. That by itself should be alright if the deck wasn't so polarized in the first place, being really strong against slow decks and absurdly bad against really fast decks like our favorite boogey(hu)man...
Sticking to mono U only restrict our options, especially since Blue is the worst color there is when it comes to sideboards. But you're still right: after the short time under the spotlight the mono U version had, no other versions pulled out their weight on tournaments... I did get my ass handed to me at GP Lyon after all.
So, tl/dr: a mono U core is always better, but small splashs are really important. For exemple, my last iteration only plays 3 copies of path MB and 2 Brutalities SB with a copy of Engineered Explosives MB, that card is absurd with Tolaria West (and I'll probably hate myself quite often for not using Stony Silence). It doesn't need more than this, but it wouldn't be as effective without.
[edit] I also agree with you about the leylines, but mainly because I hate sacrifying 4 sideboard slots for a single card...
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
Couple of things:
1) this is a new deck. Guess which lists are going to be the more successful ones at the beginning of a deck's journey; yep, almost without exception it will be minor iterations on the initial brew which started the ball rolling and put the deck on the map. People aren't going to universally and independantly all tune a rough diamond of a deck into a tweaked perfect machine, they'll just play the last version that got any kind of result. It takes a long time for a fringe deck to successfully iterate up to the point where it is properly tuned and competitive. Maybe up to a year or more. Then of course you need some people willing to take a punt on a fringe strategy, and then a lot of luck for them to get a decent finish, before sheepy results-obsessed players will even take a second glance.
My point is, this deck has just a handful of results to its name, all of them basically the 'initial build' with little or no innovation. At this stage that core variant wasn't enough to break into the mainstream of modern so in order to simply *be* competitive the deck needs to be tuned and refined by using what we know about the format in terms of speed, threats, ways to stabilise, weaknesses in the deck etc.
The mono U list is an enticing starting point with great potential but I sense you (and others maybe?) have grown too attached to this rough initial starting point and are 'digging in' and refusing to innovate. Currently the deck isn't competitive, so the situation kind of speaks for itself. Innovate or die, basically.
2) what makes this all easier is that, certainly on the face of things, the core engine of the deck, what it's trying to do, is very powerful for the format of modern. There's a shining powerful deck in there and all it may take to release the beast is to juggle the supporting cards around a bit in order to attack the deck's specific weaknesses (such as the inclusion of path to exile in the maindeck).
Now, settle the wreckage is an interesting card but probably a bit slow. You didn't need to latch onto it in your quoted post, the guy you were responding to was just saying we needed access to those kinds of effects, not that the deck needed settle specifically. I'm inclined to think that the quicker one and two mana interaction options are what will enable this deck to be more competitive as we already have the turn 3-4 sweeper aspect covered pretty well.
3) a splash in this deck is essentially free. I mean, we probably play 2x jace in this deck as standard since the unban, right? We can play him and sweep the board all in the same turn: no other deck in modern can reliably do the same. Jace needs fetchlands, so at that point you've got a free splash.
4) my own experience is that we *need* two black sources in the deck for those times when the 'secret mode' of street wraith becomes relevant (actually casting the damn thing). As such I run 1x bojuka bog (tutorable of course) and 1x watery grave as the fetchable source. This has opened up the sideboard to 2 or 3x collective brutality which is a great, powerful tool for us to attack several decks.
As for the white splash I kept it slim with 1x hallowed fountain, 3x seachrome coast and 1x mystic Gate.
I've been running just 4x fetches. It's been fine so far. Could go up to six fetches maybe but I haven't felt colour screwed yet after quite a lot of time running back the same list.
I run 3x maindeck path. I also run a further one-mana interaction boost maindeck of 1x spell snare, 1x spell pierce, backed up by a compliment of two-mana interaction in the form of 3x remand and 1x mana leak.
In the sideboard i've appreciated having access to the following:
2x meddling mage (the super secret tech here. People side out removal against you, combo decks don't bring it in. It's a perfect opportunity to completely blindside storm, ad naus and such. Works really well & has given me a lot of free wins)
4x leyline of sanctity (whether you're a fan or not it's an insane effect and works well here in a deck which can routinely back it up with a quick sweeper and large threats)
2x Stony silence (just bonkers. One of the main reasons to run white altogether)
And that's actually it. I don't get cute with the splash. I play the most powerful possible effects and don't go overboard. Path maindeck and a sprinkle of some of the best sideboard options is as far as I'd go. It definitely helps the deck compete in a wider meta from my testing and comparisons.
But that's just my own anecdotal testing. I'm not an oracle. I know 'tuning' pretty well, you could even say its my forté, but don't accept what I say blindly. Go and test what I'm saying and hopefully rack up a few decent results. That's how a deck like this survives.
If it doesn't quite work out, try something else. Don't dismiss the need to innovate based just on a scattering of initial results the deck threw up when it had its moment in the sun.
What does your full sb look like? I have been having trouble with the last few slots. I feel like 4x leyline, 2x stony, 2-4x gy hate(I use macabre), 3x a mix of spell snare/spell pierce. That still leaves 2-4 slots open. The meddling mage tech seems interesting but I’m not sure it’s not to cute. But I haven’t played anything but storm more than a couple games.
Also how many lands does this deck need to play vs how many cyclers? I don’t think that obstructionist counts as a cycler for this application as it costs to much to dig for lands. I was playing 21 lands, 13 cyclers, but I was continuously having to dig for lands to make drops on time. I’ve increased to 22, and it has been a lot better. But I see a lot of lists at 20. I am curious how many lands people think should be played. As a control deck with a combo finish it’s really important that we hit land drops at least up to 4 and the way I play I really need to hit up to 6 pretty consistently.
Edit: Also, what are the cycler numbers? I’d been playing glasshulk of a two of due to it being castable and dodging push/bolt. But if I were to add a grave I could see going back to architect. And every time I play more than 3x street wraith it just seems bad.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I don’t think it does. However, Drift of Phantasms may. It’s strictly better due to being in our main color, being uncounterable and putting a dude in the yard for end. I think a 1-2x would be worth testing, I haven’t tried it yet personally but I can see the argument for it. Others in this thread have tried and discussed its merits though.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I was one of the firsts here to say I loved a couple of Sunken Ruins on top of the Bog to actually cast the Wraiths, even suspend Living end once or twice, and play the Collective Brutalities in the sideboard, plus giving engineered explosives a better use (colorless and more reliable 2 color). I tried River of Tears as well, and some fetches/shocklands + fatal push.
I also said I didn't try the white splash. Path seems useful, but before trying a splash I wanted to give Reality Shift a go first since I figured it might get the job done decently enough. Fetch-Shocking once is already 3 damage if it comes to that, that is a lot of times underestimated. I've never played with "manifest" so I don't know how often the downside is relevant, not ramping the opponent seemed nice, costing 2 obviously didn't, haha.
Wrapping up, I don't dismiss any splash, what I'm playing and calling monoU has the black "splash" since it is really as close to free as it gets, and collective brutality is great.
White splash, red splash, I'm all in favor of trying things. Again, my reply was to the guy dismissing monoU and claiming the white splash was needed.
I like the "Esper" with small black and white touches, since I don't think I would want to lose the free black splash to run white.
Doesn't Seachrome Coast bother you coming into play tapped? Glacial Fortress might work if you're still running a significant number of islands. I think you didn't play a lot of Cryptics so that might make it less hard, but I'm already annoyed from time to time at having 4 Tolaria West and 1 Bojuka Bog coming in tapped to risk more lands comming in tapped before getting to 4 mana.
Edit: Sorry about the poorly written post, haha. I wrote it during different breaks while at work, and I just read it all together and it was a pain
I have the same doubt. My main deck list is very consistent and I don't wanna change, but I'm having doubts about my sb, especially in gy hate. For now I'm using 4x Leyline of the void, but I already tested Tormod's crypt, and now thinking to test Macabre. What I think is: gy hate only makes sense in the beginning of the game. If you draw a Macabre or Tormod's in your 5º turn against dredge ur are probably already dead. So, its a dead card like Leyline in the late game. If I need a gy in the beginning, the best option is Leyline. But I can be worng. I wanna know your thoughts.
Here my list:
2 Street Wraith
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
Enchantment
4 As Foretold
Land
3 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Field of Ruin
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
1 Supreme Will
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Living End
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Detention Sphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Condemn
1 Disenchant
1 Negate
UBlue EndU
BAd NauseamB
I asking about purklefluff’s list, sorry to be unclear. However, I think there’s some good stuff to talk about here. How much do you get stuck on lands only running 20?
I love the macabre, they can go in against a lot of decks. Like I wouldn’t really want leylines in against company combo decks, but having a macabre to snipe their combo pieces or mute a eternal witness is great. It also is good at sniping snapcaster targets leading to misplays. Dredge and all in gy decks are on the downswing right now, so I’m kinda hedging my board there. If they become big again I could see using leyline, but macabre is super versitile and comes back with living end. I side them in all the time.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
One thing I am sure about is that this deck doesn't want Street Wraith. The deck is way too slow and controlly to justify paying 2 life for such a marginal creature/effect. Instead, I went up to 21 lands and am playing Glassdust Hulk. It's nice to dodge push/bolt and be able to cycle for white. The ability of Architects of Will never seemed very relevant to me as we have better ways to control the opponent than to reorder the top 3 cards of their deck and the creature itself sucks.
This is my list now, which I just 3-0'd with against Bogles, Ponza and Zoo.
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tolaria West
3 Field of Ruin
7 Island
1 Plains
Creatures
1 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Curator of Mysteries
2 Glassdust Hulk
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Serum Visions
3 Path to Exile
4 Remand
4 As Foretold
3 Cryptic Command
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
In all games I've played so far I never wanted to suspend Living End. It would never be relevant and the white cards are way more impactful than the black. I definitely view this deck as a control deck with an unusual win con. If I had it, I'd play a 2nd Obstructionist over the 2nd Glassdust Hulk. I've never played the mono-U version but I don't see the upside with a significantly worse SB and only 3 white cards MD.
So I still insist on playing the mono-U version.
I made 4-0 in the FNM today, being that the matches were against respectively:
I used the following list:
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Curator of Mysteries
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nimble Obstructionist
Spells (21)
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
2 Disallow
2 Mana Leak
3 Living End
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Supreme Will
4 As Foretold
Artifacts (1)
1 Ratchet Bomb
Lands (21)
4 Field of Ruin
10 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Dispel
2 Dismember
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Nimble Obstructionist
So I chose to use Spell Pierce instead of Spell Snare, because Spell Snare is very situational, excellent against drop 2, but Spell Pierce was much more useful as I was able to deal with spells in turn 1 such as: Discard ( Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize; Destruction of Land (PONZA)).
Also I put 1 Ratchet Bomb, to be able to deal with threats of cost 1 and cost 2.
The Vendillion Clique, was excellent, because it gave me besides another creature to play in the pass of the opponent's turn, still carry out that situational removal, I found very good, and it puts a lot of pressure.
I'm still using Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. To be able to deal with the lack of As Foretold. Last week I took a Slaughter Games at As Foretold that left me with Living End standing in my hand. In addition he also activates the Street Wraith Swampwalk
I'm still thinking about a build with white, to take more advantage of Leyline of Sanctity and use Path to Exile.
What did you think?
UB Living End as Foretold
R Skred Dragons
CKCI
Lots to gain and very little to lose from a small splash into a second colour
1-1 vs UW Humans
1-1 vs BW Eldrazi
2x0 vs Death and Taxes
I didn't have the chance to test Macabre because the matches didn't ask for that. But I'm really thinking to use 3x Macabre and 1x Dispel instead 4x Leyline of the Void because I don't use black mana so I need to mull until get a Leyline or need to keep a bad hand just because the Leyline came. But and wanna see more opinions about that. It's a important discussion to our deck. What kind of gy you think is best?
UBlue EndU
BAd NauseamB
I'm on definitively with purklefluff on that one: minor splashes do not hurt, yet bring quite a few really useful tools.
@Bradpt: I'm only using one Bog MB, and one Tormod's crypt in side. It certainly is very low, but that's partly because of metagame calls. With Dominaria leaks I learned about a new sideboard card which is going to help against storm so I am unlikely to move from this set-up. An important thing to mention is that both of them can be tutored by Tolaria West.
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
Turn 1 cycle a street wraith with another creature. Turn 2 draw 3 discard 3.
Turn 3 living end with as foretold and reanimate 5-7 creatures and wipe their board.
Yay or nay?