I have to agree with purklefluff. (See my UW List)
You need the early interaction e.g. Spell Pierce, Spell Snare or Path
I don't like Unsubstantiate, because its straight card disadvantage and the games tend to go long. Especially against Humans you want a hard removal or hard counter (Spell Snare) for Thalia or other hatebears.
Yeah I played against this version yesterday. Kinda hard to living end my own riverwinders when the opponent gets griselbrands... Was a very fun match!
Purk's not trolling. He's one of the more active minds on the Taking Turns thread, and has contributed a lot of good points there. I don't necessarily agree with every point that Purk makes, but I definitely think that his point on lowering the curve of our interaction is a valid point to be making. Like it or not, Modern rewards aggressive, proactive play due to the wide range of high-impact threats with not enough clean answers.
How do we take this deck from fringe flavor of the month to tier 1? I like to think that we can be united in trying to answer this question. I can't help but feel like for a lot of the tweaks I've made on this deck, I keep getting this 'almost there' feeling. Almost there is still not there at the end of the day.
For my part, I have a few points I primarily wanted to raise:
Spell Snares and Chalices
Spell Snare seems to be a great direction to go. 2 is a vitally important spot for a lot of decks - it also allows us to come up tempo-positive in a deck where every mana matters. It's definitely at its best on the draw, but even if you are on the play, turn 2 cycle with Snare up is a perfectly fine position to be in.
I think my main issue at the moment is that I'm not sure whether or not we could potentially be a Chalice of the Void deck. Yeah, it's not "draw go" like would be nice, but its definitely a card that a lot of decks in Modern cannot answer, especially pre-board, in a deck that can search it up with Tolaria West. You could also feasibly build around Chalice in a way that limits or completely eliminates the impact that a Chalice on 1 has on your own deck. Our deck has no need for the standard Serum Visions/Opt package that other blue decks need because of the nature of our game plan playing a bunch of 1-mana cyclers.
Of the two above points, I do tend to lean towards the Chalice plan. The downside is that it takes you away from the 1-mana spell plan, but even then, its not terrible. Eldrazi Tron still plays Expedition Map in their Chalice deck.
Cycler package
We have a few cyclers available to us, and there doesn't appear to be a consensus as to a cycler package. How many creatures/cyclers do we play? What mix of cyclers? Do we mainboard Nimble Obstructionist?
I'm of the firm opinion that Riverwinder and Curator are 4-ofs. Street Wraith is a 4-of, and the one I love the most and hate the most at the same time (see: aggro matchups). That puts us at 12 creatures, but where do we go from here? Architects of Will and Nimble Obstructionist are the two obvious choices.
I'm of the opinion that our deck wants at least 14-15 cyclers. Why? That I wouldn't be able to tell you - it feels smoother? I like drawing cards?
Street Wraith
Speaking of the love-hate with this card, how correct is it to cycle this card against aggro matchups? It feels abysmal to do it against burn, but you need to establish a clock somehow. Do you side this card out? Why? I'm not quite sure what to think about this one. I'm pretty much always cycling it regardless of the matchup, but I haven't sided it out and I'm not sure how it might affect the deck's consistency doing so. I could go either way on how to use this card both in-game as well as how it relates to sideboarding.
Tolaria West toolbox
How deep do we go (aside from the obvious fetch Living End or Ancestral Vision)? I think that the Bojuka Bog is great. EE is reasonable, but less so for mono-blue builds (if you don't have a land that produces colorless, you're not using EE to get around Chalice on 0). Pact of Negation is one that I have thought about, but then I reread the text on Obstructionist and the thought became much less good (although it would seem reasonable for certain matchups). Crypt is fine out of the board - it doesn't feel great, but the opportunity cost is pretty low.
What are your guys' thoughts?
My LGS has Modern on Sundays and Mondays - I'm going to try to start actually taking notes on paper as opposed to this Boogieboard (basically an electronic etch-and-sketch for those that don't know). I'm going to try recording the results in a spreadsheet.
2x0 vs Humans
1x0 vs Storm
1x2 vs Eldratron
2x0 vs Skred
When Eldratron came really aggressive with Cavern of Souls and Knot Seer discarding our hand its unstoppable. In the last match he casts 2 knot Seer, and it was gg! What a hard match!
Not too keen on unsubstantiate. Control decks need cantrips.
Haven't contributed in a while but a good answer to lower the curve to have more interaction can be repeal for tempo gain and can trips. Only *****ty part is you can't cast it with As Foretold on anything past zero (chalice).
The other card that may be better is Into the Roil.
Both of these cards can be solid answers to creatures both early game and late game. They don't put them in the graveyard either. Also gets gets rid of a chalice or even pesky enchantments.
Maybe dropping a cryptic or a creature for these can help.
I've read in some places (on 1310hazzzard's twitch for instance) that the control matchup is supposed to be good. That's not my experience at all, I find this a very unfavourable matchup that a few dispels post board doesn't fix. But maybe I'm playing it wrong? How do you guys tackle control: what's the general play sequence and what do you board out?
I've been testing this deck in MTGO for about to 2 weeks and I would like to share my experience.
First of all I started with a UB list, then I tried a UW list based in Purk's list.
I agree with Purk and Xexen that the deck needs to lowering the curve to improve matchup against aggro decks.
The choices:
Lands
For the manabase I choose the full set ofSeachrome Coast because you can't afford a tapped mana in the first turns and added 2 mystic gate as another fixer, Using more than 2 is risky because you can't afford a colorless land T1.
I choosed not to play fetchs to avoid life loss. Against aggro decks even 1 or 2 life can be relevant.
Went for the full set of Field of Ruin because this card is so good. It helps filtering our mana and disrupt Tron. It also acts as a land destruction against decks with a low amount of basics).
Creatures
I first went to 2 and then choose to remove entirely the Street Wrath to improve aggro matchups.
So I'm replacing it for 2 extra Architects of Will which are ok because it triggers library manipulation and it's really important to control what your opponent will draw after a Living End, and 2 Serum Visions which are bunkers because it gives us the same amount of draw plus a scry 2, which can help us find the combo or any card we need.
I'm playing 2 Nimble Obstructionist and I would play more if I had space because it give us so much flexibility: it can works as a Stifle, as a flashy blocker or as a flash evasive creature when you need to race your opponent.
Spells
I'm playing 4 Paths to exile because it's a flexible answer that you can cast in the first turns and It's relevant not to put a creature in the grave before Living End. As you are already pressuring the opponent's manabase with Field of Ruins you will often cast it later without drawback.
This card was the reason I choose to go UW, but if you want to go UB I think the potential's replacement would be Collective Brutality or Fatal Push but these 2 are conditional and put in grave...
Choose to remove 1x Cryptic Command because I can't afford starting a match with 2 in hand and 1 Living End because we can transmute to find it. I also play 1Search of Azcanta because it's really helpful when games goes long.
For the Sideboard, Detention Sphere acts as an Engineered Explosives and I really like it's flexibility but you need to be careful because the opponent can already brings enchantment removal against As Foretold Stony Silence is so good against Affinity and it shuts down hate cards such as Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus. It also helps against Aether Vial matchups, which I was struggling.
I bring Dispel against Control and Combo and Celestial Purge against Burn and Pyromancer decks.
I really hope a Pro decides to work into this deck, it has a lot of potential and I believe this can be the better UB control build in modern because As Foretold is so strong.
Let's keep tunning!
Ancestral Vision and Search For Azcanta are the more relevant cards against them... Remind is week in this matchup but it can help you to land an As Foretold and then you will be in Good Spot.
You have more winning conditions and you can answer the man lands with fields of ruin. You only need to be careful with the planeswalkers.
For Sideboarded Games you will bring Dispel which will will help.
definitely embraced a lot of the criticisms with this list. 1 mana interaction is usually pretty good in the opener. and spell snare is an all star against storm. with lantern control winning the pro tour we might see a big meta shift. fortunately this deck has a very strong lantern match up. being able to tutor for chalice on one and also having plenty of answer to whir as well as all the instant card draw puts us in a very good place against lantern. also i was very pleased with search for azcanta, pretty easy to turn it on and start getting massive value.
starting to feel like this list could be very competitive. feel like i'm winning games because of the strong build rather than getting the combo early. also less mulligans.
I sleeved up the Medvec deck and while I haven't played against a human being yet, I've goldfished about 30 draws to get a feel for which cards come up and it feels a bit clunky. Obviously you can't make game decisions without an opponent, but the number of times you get Kiki but no Exarch or vice-versa, isn't insignificant. On the other hand, I did get a couple of T2 kills. Going T1 Looting into T2 SSG/As Foretold/LE is pretty stupid. It also offers some very cute redundancies. T1 Looting discarding Kiki, T2/3 EOT Exarch into T3/4 Goryo's is pretty quaint. Finally if your oppo nukes your yard, you can always just play the combo on the table.
However, it is a pure combo deck and very different to the control deck we have been discussing here. While I have no objection to the two decks sharing space -- especially given what appears to be a lack of energy being given to individual discussion boards -- it will be important to make sure we differentiate between the decks we are discussing as we go so people can pay attention to the decks they are personally focused on.
just won another mini with the list i posted above. played mardu pyromancer and mono red prison. went 2-0 against pyromancer and 2-1 against the mono red prison. i def concede that the one mana interaction is necessary. didn't use search for az that much, i was pretty ahead most games. ancestral vision was the all star both matches. there is a much larger cash prize tourney later in the month so hopefully it will have a large showing and i can really test the deck out in a tournament setting.
Ardent Plea out of the sideboard (taking out Remands and some AV) make the fast Living End more reliable in games 2 and 3 versus fast decks. The painful part is splashing white but having to side out Path to Exile. Timely Reinforcements can buy a turn or two and doesn't get hit by Plea, so it's a decent sideboard card for aggro matchups.
The Ardent Plea sb plan is cute, but it makes running other 1-2cmc interaction problematic. Silence plus some Snapcasters or JVP seem like one path for getting to the late game that's relatively unexplored for combo decks in Modern. But we're getting into turbo fog territory here.
I'm playing around with a green splash as well. Beast Within helps deal with all the problem permanents (RiP, Leylines, Relics), Pulse of Murasa in the sb helps against Burn, but also works well in grindy matchups. I think Moment's Peace would be fantastic in this deck, but we'll probably never see it in Modern.
Alchemist's Refuge is f***ing amazing when it works. Yes, instant speed Ancestral Vision, just as Richard Garfield intended. I'd play more than 1 if the mana could support it.
Refuge also potentially synergizes with the Eternal Command style, which I'm surprised hasn't been talked about more. Traditionally people use Aether Vial to get free Eternal Witnesses, returning the Cryptic, and bouncing the Ewit again, ad nauseum. We have As Foretold instead of Vial, which is at least two turns slower, but has other benefits. It really is slow and durdly, we have more powerful things to be doing, but that extreme durdliness appeals to some people.
I gave up on Utopia Sprawl as acceleration. Having turn 1 Forest consistently required playing too many fetches and shocks. Botanical Sanctum is a necessity for keeping the deck alive long enough to start tapping down with Cryptics or assembling AF+LE, and you can't put Sprawl on Sanctums.
Bring to Light makes casting LE more consistent. It's slow at 5 mana but increasing threat density is important against control, in addition to finding sideboard cards (e.g. Scavenging Ooze).
It really is a control deck that uses the combo for board control versus creature decks, with the side benefit of getting lots of bodies on board sometimes. (i.e. the combo win)
In principal Lotus Bloom could be interesting with Bring to Light (and even ramping into Baral's Expertise), but Bloom is too durdly at that point.
Finally I'm curious about incorporating Wheel of Fate if only the drawback (opponent gets to draw 7 too) could be mitigated somehow. Notion Thief is cute, but too slow.
That's the least promising direction that I'm exploring right now, but I'm pretty keen on green right now.
I'm planning on taking this deck to GP Toronto this coming weekend. Any opinions on it? I'd love to hear what people think about some of my odd choices. I need to make a cut from my sideboard as well, I'm willing to listen to ideas and changes. All opinions will be greatly appreciated.
The Green looks like it could offer something, however if I'm going to play a G-based combo deck I'm probably going to run Scapeshift. It's fast, it's consistent and it's proven.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I'm planning on taking this deck to GP Toronto this coming weekend. Any opinions on it? I'd love to hear what people think about some of my odd choices. I need to make a cut from my sideboard as well, I'm willing to listen to ideas and changes. All opinions will be greatly appreciated.
Hey - I would play the full set of remands and cut the wreckage mb for a spell snare or up the pierce Count. Also, I would play at least 2 street wraiths- free cycling is very strong (I know it is worse against aggro, but you have path).
Gideon can be fine, if you like him. I'd also cut the basic plains. Most of the time you want to cycle the first Turns and need Blue mana.
I've played a very similar version with settle the wreckage and have to disagree with clixxi. Settle the wreckage is a house (sweeper that doesn't fill the yard). Especially if people don't expect it. In your local environment the surprise is quickly gone and people play around it, but at a GP the surprise factor is a real thing. I'm not sold on gideon though and WW on T3 is sometimes hard. Instead I would just play the fourth path here, lowering your curve and freeing up a spot from your sideboard. To further lower your curve you could consider cutting a Command for a Pierce. I would also play at least one Mystic Gate if you're playing WW spells like settle the wreckage.
To get your SB further down to 15 cards I would cut a Fearie or the Cage: with paths and settle the wreckage opp's graveyard doesn't fill too quickly, plus you also have bog to tutor up to remove opp's graveyard.
In regards to JochemW:
That's what I thought about Settle The Wreckage. In a format where you can expect a lot of humans, or at the very least a lot of aggro- the card is a complete house. People will not be expecting it, which is what I also thought about Gideon of the Trials. Though I have been questioning playing him as well. Sadly, I've been sick the last two weeks and have not had a chance to actually play test this build. (Other than solitaire) Mystic Gate is a great idea, I will look around my locals today and see if I can spot one. (I will have to test this deck in a legacy event tonight. It's the last local event before GP Toronto.)
Your comments on the sideboard make complete sense. Faerie won't be that useful unless someone is discarding their own cards to say Faithless Looting for example. Since I will be spending most of the game exiling their creatures. And since I am playing Living End on my turn, instead of the other build which does it on instant speed. It's very likely that Settle the Wreckage would be able to protect me from their own alpha strike creatures anyways.
To Clixxi:
I reealllly hate Street Wraith in the current meta. I'm not as worried against aggro when it comes to Street Wraith, I am more worried about playing against burn with them. Which is possible I may not see much, but- Ugh. I hate the life loss, when I could be taking hits to the face. I don't want to be playing a nasty game of "Stop hitting yourself" at that point.
I don't like how Settle the wreckage looks (haven't tried it, just theory).
I love the card, since it's very annoying when you're facing it, and it being an instant is a much better fit than wrath for us, but I feel we already have that effect in Living End, even potentially faster.
We can deal with creatures in graveyards easier than a 4 mana with double white that requires them to attack with the creatures. If you're splashing white Path is good, of course, but consider that splashing white probably will require you to trim Field/Ghost Quarter, and some Cryptic Commands.
Also agree that some number of Street Wraiths would help you. It's free cycling plus a body in the yard (and Swampwalk can be relevant). Of course you won't go crazy with them against aggro or burn, but 1 or 2 are almost always great.
I would trim 1 Living End, specially if you're running Paths (even more with Settle), it's very rare that you will need 4, and you have tutors for them. 1 can fall to discard/counter, and you still have 2 more. I can't remember a game when I casted Living End more than 2 times (and 2 times is not that frequent, it means 1 was more of a sweeper and the second one the lethal one). Even if they get all of them, you can still play the game and kill with Curators and Obstructionists.
Has anybody tried playing Chalice of the Void maindeck? Chalice on 1 hits so many things and barely hurts us.
List of hits at 1: BG Tron -> chromatic stars/spheres, stirrings, relic, expedition map. (19 cards approx) Grixis DS -> Push, inquisition, Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions, Stubborn Denial, Thought Scour, Thoughtseize, Death Shadow (approx 24 cards) Humans -> Vial, Inspector, Champion, Hierarch (approx 14 cards, they run Cavern of Souls though) Burn -> Lavamacer, Swiftspear, Guide, Bolt, Spike (approx 18 cards, and another one at 2 shuts down the rest except rift bolts) Affinity -> 12 cards hit at 0, 8 at 1 and 16 at 2 if we manage to Living End to stop from re-building Eldrazi Tron -> Not a very good match for Chalice (that's why they run it, lol), only hits Expedition Maps reliably Jeskai Control -> Bolt, Path, Serum Visions and Snare (14 cards approx) Storm -> Serum Visions, Opt, Noxious revival and sleight at 1 (approx 12 cards). But Chalice at 2 is KO, shutting them off completely. Dredge -> Not the best for Chalice, Neonate, darkblast, and hand-casted Faithless Lootings. Titanshift -> Probably too slow since we would need it at 2 to stop the ramping, and it would already have happened by then. Mardu Pyro -> Thoughseize, Bolt, Inquisition, Push, hand Faithless Looting (approx 17 cards) UW Control -> Serum Visions and Path (8 cards). At 2 it hits them hard, but would be a struggle to resolve unless we're already winning hard BR Hollow One -> Adept, Inquiry, Looting from hand, Bolt (16 cards) Abzan -> Path, Inquisition, Push, Thoughtseize (12 cards approx) Traverse Shadow -> Push, inquisition, Traverse, Serum Visions, Stubborn Denial, Thought Scour, Thoughtseize, Death Shadow (21 cards approx) Lantern -> Stirrings, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Shredder, Pixies, Cage, Pithing needle, Lantern, Spellbomb (approx 25! cards) Counters Company -> Birds, Hierarch, Viscera Seer, not very good here hitting around 8 cards only Eldrazi & Taxes -> Militant, Inspector, Path, Vial (around 12 cards) Bogles -> Scout and Bogle, Path, Rancor, Armor, Hyena and Spider Umbras, and Gryff's boon (26! cards, and at 2 you shut down the rest) Infect -> Glistener, Hierarch, defense, strike, mutagenic, groundswell, might, vines, pierce, twisted image (31! cards at 1) Merfolk -> Cursecatcher, Vial, Kumena's speaker in UG (not much, a bigger hit on 2 but they run Cavern of Souls anyway)
Damn, putting that list together made me really want to try it, haha. Trimming the 1 mana counters and maybe the Engineered Explosives should make room for 3 Chalices, and a resolved Chalice should lessen the burden on the countermagic and the explosives, so it might work nicely.
Anybody tried it and can provide feedback? I love how hard it hits Infect and Shadow, also BG Tron. Lantern never gave me many issues. I haven't played Bogles, but it's a KO for them and they probably aren't a comfortable matchup.
Storm should be hit hard as well, and several other decks I didn't list (Ad Nauseaum, Martyr Proc/Soul Sisters, etc etc... Modern is crazy wide)
Edit: Forgot to add for reference, my decklist. I meant I would like to try trimming 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Spell Snare and 1 Engineered Explosives from maindeck, for +3 Chalices
i think chalice is better served in the board. i think everyone is agreeing that some number of spell pierce and spell snare should be run main. these are much better answer to troublesome turn one and 2 plays from our opponents. i will however bring chalice in against every deck you mentioned and since it is searchable with tolaria. it is best to just run the one so you have a low chance of it being discarded and surgicaled.
i do really like faerie macabre in the sideboard though. not sure if it is better than leyline of the void, but leyline is so hit or miss.
edit: prob dont need chalice against bogles, since a living end is likely game over for them.
decks that chalice shines against are tron, lantern, death's shadow variants, and storm. though storm is a bit tougher as you have to land it on 2, but that is right in line with tolaria west. remember though that it doesnt shut the storm player down completely. they can still land a huge empty the warrens.
Yeah, Snare/Pierce plus Remand help you get to Cryptic mana alive, and that's when things start to turn our way
Lantern is also a pretty favorable matchup already with the Visions, cyclers, transmuting, living ends, cryptics and explosives, etc...
So Tron, Death Shadow, Storm, Infect and Burn would be the bigger improvements.
Of those, I'm worried about Burn and Infect the most, though an edge in the others in welcome. The thing is for it to be really effective you need to cast it on 1 in t2 (hopefully on the play!).
Tapping out to transmute for it and then casting it the next turn is pretty risky against Storm, as well as risks getting hit by discard by Shadow or Lantern while in your hand. Against Burn or Infect t4 is likely too late to matter as well.
That's why I was thinking of testing 3 of them. You can even cast another one at 2 counters later with minimal consequences for us, while shutting down a lot more cards in other decks.
The main reason I wanted to play it maindeck instead of sideboard is that g2 will probably bring in artifact/enchantment hate, and they might not be as good. I'd prefer to side them out g2 in the not so relevant games, especially if I expect Wear/Tear *shudder*.
Faerie Macabre has been great for me, another flying body, surprise effect even if tapped out, and you rarely have more than 2 annoying cards in their graveyard to remove. Ruining a Snap or EWit + removing some pesky creature, or getting rid of 2 creatures is usually enough to overwhelm them with ours. Not to mention the fringer case of saving AV, CC, AF or LE from a Surgical Extraction.
Deck name came from my buddy who plays abzan and totally hated playing against this pile of trash.
I have a mix of black to fetch for EE mb and pop it against 1 or 2 cmc. Or even hard-cast street wraith/LE.
I was play 1 of Drift of Phantasms, but Supreme will is way better for digging.
Search for Azcanta is prime because worst case it eats an abrupt decay to clear way for you as foretold, but if it does not get removed it does WORK. Always bin your creatures at upkeep, saves you mana.
Please critique!
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You need the early interaction e.g. Spell Pierce, Spell Snare or Path
I don't like Unsubstantiate, because its straight card disadvantage and the games tend to go long. Especially against Humans you want a hard removal or hard counter (Spell Snare) for Thalia or other hatebears.
Goryo's As Foretold by Tom Medvec
SCG Modern Classic Philadelphia, 2nd Place
Jan 28, 2018
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/915066#paper
How do we take this deck from fringe flavor of the month to tier 1? I like to think that we can be united in trying to answer this question. I can't help but feel like for a lot of the tweaks I've made on this deck, I keep getting this 'almost there' feeling. Almost there is still not there at the end of the day.
For my part, I have a few points I primarily wanted to raise:
Spell Snares and Chalices
Spell Snare seems to be a great direction to go. 2 is a vitally important spot for a lot of decks - it also allows us to come up tempo-positive in a deck where every mana matters. It's definitely at its best on the draw, but even if you are on the play, turn 2 cycle with Snare up is a perfectly fine position to be in.
I think my main issue at the moment is that I'm not sure whether or not we could potentially be a Chalice of the Void deck. Yeah, it's not "draw go" like would be nice, but its definitely a card that a lot of decks in Modern cannot answer, especially pre-board, in a deck that can search it up with Tolaria West. You could also feasibly build around Chalice in a way that limits or completely eliminates the impact that a Chalice on 1 has on your own deck. Our deck has no need for the standard Serum Visions/Opt package that other blue decks need because of the nature of our game plan playing a bunch of 1-mana cyclers.
Of the two above points, I do tend to lean towards the Chalice plan. The downside is that it takes you away from the 1-mana spell plan, but even then, its not terrible. Eldrazi Tron still plays Expedition Map in their Chalice deck.
Cycler package
We have a few cyclers available to us, and there doesn't appear to be a consensus as to a cycler package. How many creatures/cyclers do we play? What mix of cyclers? Do we mainboard Nimble Obstructionist?
I'm of the firm opinion that Riverwinder and Curator are 4-ofs. Street Wraith is a 4-of, and the one I love the most and hate the most at the same time (see: aggro matchups). That puts us at 12 creatures, but where do we go from here? Architects of Will and Nimble Obstructionist are the two obvious choices.
I'm of the opinion that our deck wants at least 14-15 cyclers. Why? That I wouldn't be able to tell you - it feels smoother? I like drawing cards?
Street Wraith
Speaking of the love-hate with this card, how correct is it to cycle this card against aggro matchups? It feels abysmal to do it against burn, but you need to establish a clock somehow. Do you side this card out? Why? I'm not quite sure what to think about this one. I'm pretty much always cycling it regardless of the matchup, but I haven't sided it out and I'm not sure how it might affect the deck's consistency doing so. I could go either way on how to use this card both in-game as well as how it relates to sideboarding.
Tolaria West toolbox
How deep do we go (aside from the obvious fetch Living End or Ancestral Vision)? I think that the Bojuka Bog is great. EE is reasonable, but less so for mono-blue builds (if you don't have a land that produces colorless, you're not using EE to get around Chalice on 0). Pact of Negation is one that I have thought about, but then I reread the text on Obstructionist and the thought became much less good (although it would seem reasonable for certain matchups). Crypt is fine out of the board - it doesn't feel great, but the opportunity cost is pretty low.
What are your guys' thoughts?
My LGS has Modern on Sundays and Mondays - I'm going to try to start actually taking notes on paper as opposed to this Boogieboard (basically an electronic etch-and-sketch for those that don't know). I'm going to try recording the results in a spreadsheet.
Apologies for the wall of text, by the way.
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
2x0 vs Humans
1x0 vs Storm
1x2 vs Eldratron
2x0 vs Skred
When Eldratron came really aggressive with Cavern of Souls and Knot Seer discarding our hand its unstoppable. In the last match he casts 2 knot Seer, and it was gg! What a hard match!
UBlue EndU
BAd NauseamB
Haven't contributed in a while but a good answer to lower the curve to have more interaction can be repeal for tempo gain and can trips. Only *****ty part is you can't cast it with As Foretold on anything past zero (chalice).
The other card that may be better is Into the Roil.
Both of these cards can be solid answers to creatures both early game and late game. They don't put them in the graveyard either. Also gets gets rid of a chalice or even pesky enchantments.
Maybe dropping a cryptic or a creature for these can help.
Thanks a lot!
I've been testing this deck in MTGO for about to 2 weeks and I would like to share my experience.
First of all I started with a UB list, then I tried a UW list based in Purk's list.
I agree with Purk and Xexen that the deck needs to lowering the curve to improve matchup against aggro decks.
This is my current list:
4 Field of Ruin
7 Island
2 Mystic Gates
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Tolaria West
Creatures: 14
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Architects of Will
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Living End
4 Path to Exile
2 Serum Visions
4 Remand
1 Search for Azcanta
4 As Foretold
3 Cryptic Command
3 Dispel
2 Celestial Purge
3 Stony Silence
1 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Detention Sphere
4 Leyline of the Void
The choices:
Lands
For the manabase I choose the full set ofSeachrome Coast because you can't afford a tapped mana in the first turns and added 2 mystic gate as another fixer, Using more than 2 is risky because you can't afford a colorless land T1.
I choosed not to play fetchs to avoid life loss. Against aggro decks even 1 or 2 life can be relevant.
Went for the full set of Field of Ruin because this card is so good. It helps filtering our mana and disrupt Tron. It also acts as a land destruction against decks with a low amount of basics).
Creatures
I first went to 2 and then choose to remove entirely the Street Wrath to improve aggro matchups.
So I'm replacing it for 2 extra Architects of Will which are ok because it triggers library manipulation and it's really important to control what your opponent will draw after a Living End, and 2 Serum Visions which are bunkers because it gives us the same amount of draw plus a scry 2, which can help us find the combo or any card we need.
I'm playing 2 Nimble Obstructionist and I would play more if I had space because it give us so much flexibility: it can works as a Stifle, as a flashy blocker or as a flash evasive creature when you need to race your opponent.
Spells
I'm playing 4 Paths to exile because it's a flexible answer that you can cast in the first turns and It's relevant not to put a creature in the grave before Living End. As you are already pressuring the opponent's manabase with Field of Ruins you will often cast it later without drawback.
This card was the reason I choose to go UW, but if you want to go UB I think the potential's replacement would be Collective Brutality or Fatal Push but these 2 are conditional and put in grave...
Choose to remove 1x Cryptic Command because I can't afford starting a match with 2 in hand and 1 Living End because we can transmute to find it. I also play 1Search of Azcanta because it's really helpful when games goes long.
For the Sideboard, Detention Sphere acts as an Engineered Explosives and I really like it's flexibility but you need to be careful because the opponent can already brings enchantment removal against As Foretold
Stony Silence is so good against Affinity and it shuts down hate cards such as Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus. It also helps against Aether Vial matchups, which I was struggling.
I bring Dispel against Control and Combo and Celestial Purge against Burn and Pyromancer decks.
I really hope a Pro decides to work into this deck, it has a lot of potential and I believe this can be the better UB control build in modern because As Foretold is so strong.
Let's keep tunning!
Kuma
You have more winning conditions and you can answer the man lands with fields of ruin. You only need to be careful with the planeswalkers.
For Sideboarded Games you will bring Dispel which will will help.
Kuma
2 architects of will
4 curator of mysteries
3 street wraith
4 striped riverwinder
spells: 26
4 ancestral vision
4 living end
3 spell pierce
2 spell snare
4 remand
2 search for azcanta
4 as foretold
3 cryptic command
1 bojuka bog
2 field of ruin
1 ghost quarter
10 island
3 river of tears
4 tolaria west
2 nimble obstructionist
1 chalice of the void
1 tormod's crypt
2 dispel
3 hurkyl's recall
2 dismember
4 leyline of the void
definitely embraced a lot of the criticisms with this list. 1 mana interaction is usually pretty good in the opener. and spell snare is an all star against storm. with lantern control winning the pro tour we might see a big meta shift. fortunately this deck has a very strong lantern match up. being able to tutor for chalice on one and also having plenty of answer to whir as well as all the instant card draw puts us in a very good place against lantern. also i was very pleased with search for azcanta, pretty easy to turn it on and start getting massive value.
starting to feel like this list could be very competitive. feel like i'm winning games because of the strong build rather than getting the combo early. also less mulligans.
2 Street Wraith
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
Enchantment
4 As Foretold
Land
3 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Field of Ruin
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
1 Supreme Will
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Living End
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Detention Sphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Condemn
1 Disenchant
1 Negate
Changes:
Main
-1 Tolaria West
-1 Ghost Quarter
-2 Unsubstantiete
+2 Darkslick
+2 Spell Pierce
Reason: 4 Unsub is too much, and i need more black mana.
Side:
-2 Tendrils
+2 Damnation
Reason: Tendrils just put -2-2 in all creatures (but exile) and Damnation destroy everything (but dont exile).
I have all the cards to splash to white, but i still think the UB version is best.
UBlue EndU
BAd NauseamB
However, it is a pure combo deck and very different to the control deck we have been discussing here. While I have no objection to the two decks sharing space -- especially given what appears to be a lack of energy being given to individual discussion boards -- it will be important to make sure we differentiate between the decks we are discussing as we go so people can pay attention to the decks they are personally focused on.
The Ardent Plea sb plan is cute, but it makes running other 1-2cmc interaction problematic. Silence plus some Snapcasters or JVP seem like one path for getting to the late game that's relatively unexplored for combo decks in Modern. But we're getting into turbo fog territory here.
I'm playing around with a green splash as well. Beast Within helps deal with all the problem permanents (RiP, Leylines, Relics), Pulse of Murasa in the sb helps against Burn, but also works well in grindy matchups. I think Moment's Peace would be fantastic in this deck, but we'll probably never see it in Modern.
Jaddi Offshoot, Brindle Boar, Gnaw to the Bone, Wall of Roots, Sakura-tribe Elder and even Embodiment of Spring are all reasonable green cards that help with aggro matchups, and synergize with the decks main plan. Note that ramping to 4 mana is actually very useful as we can start buying time with Cryptics, bridging from 3 to 5 mana for BtL.
Alchemist's Refuge is f***ing amazing when it works. Yes, instant speed Ancestral Vision, just as Richard Garfield intended. I'd play more than 1 if the mana could support it.
Refuge also potentially synergizes with the Eternal Command style, which I'm surprised hasn't been talked about more. Traditionally people use Aether Vial to get free Eternal Witnesses, returning the Cryptic, and bouncing the Ewit again, ad nauseum. We have As Foretold instead of Vial, which is at least two turns slower, but has other benefits. It really is slow and durdly, we have more powerful things to be doing, but that extreme durdliness appeals to some people.
I gave up on Utopia Sprawl as acceleration. Having turn 1 Forest consistently required playing too many fetches and shocks. Botanical Sanctum is a necessity for keeping the deck alive long enough to start tapping down with Cryptics or assembling AF+LE, and you can't put Sprawl on Sanctums.
Bring to Light makes casting LE more consistent. It's slow at 5 mana but increasing threat density is important against control, in addition to finding sideboard cards (e.g. Scavenging Ooze).
It really is a control deck that uses the combo for board control versus creature decks, with the side benefit of getting lots of bodies on board sometimes. (i.e. the combo win)
In principal Lotus Bloom could be interesting with Bring to Light (and even ramping into Baral's Expertise), but Bloom is too durdly at that point.
Finally I'm curious about incorporating Wheel of Fate if only the drawback (opponent gets to draw 7 too) could be mitigated somehow. Notion Thief is cute, but too slow.
That's the least promising direction that I'm exploring right now, but I'm pretty keen on green right now.
you can see all my tourney results here. i play under the name sam420
https://magic-league.com/tourney_list.php
4 Architects of Will
4 Curator of Mysteries
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Striped Riverwinder
Artifacts: 1
1 Engineered Explosives
Instants: 12
3 Cryptic Command
3 Path to Exile
3 Remand
2 Settle the Wreckage
1 Spell Pierce
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Gideon of the Trials
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
Enchantments: 4
4 As Foretold
Lands: 20
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Tolaria West
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Path to Exile
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Hey - I would play the full set of remands and cut the wreckage mb for a spell snare or up the pierce Count. Also, I would play at least 2 street wraiths- free cycling is very strong (I know it is worse against aggro, but you have path).
Gideon can be fine, if you like him. I'd also cut the basic plains. Most of the time you want to cycle the first Turns and need Blue mana.
To get your SB further down to 15 cards I would cut a Fearie or the Cage: with paths and settle the wreckage opp's graveyard doesn't fill too quickly, plus you also have bog to tutor up to remove opp's graveyard.
In regards to JochemW:
That's what I thought about Settle The Wreckage. In a format where you can expect a lot of humans, or at the very least a lot of aggro- the card is a complete house. People will not be expecting it, which is what I also thought about Gideon of the Trials. Though I have been questioning playing him as well. Sadly, I've been sick the last two weeks and have not had a chance to actually play test this build. (Other than solitaire) Mystic Gate is a great idea, I will look around my locals today and see if I can spot one. (I will have to test this deck in a legacy event tonight. It's the last local event before GP Toronto.)
Your comments on the sideboard make complete sense. Faerie won't be that useful unless someone is discarding their own cards to say Faithless Looting for example. Since I will be spending most of the game exiling their creatures. And since I am playing Living End on my turn, instead of the other build which does it on instant speed. It's very likely that Settle the Wreckage would be able to protect me from their own alpha strike creatures anyways.
To Clixxi:
I reealllly hate Street Wraith in the current meta. I'm not as worried against aggro when it comes to Street Wraith, I am more worried about playing against burn with them. Which is possible I may not see much, but- Ugh. I hate the life loss, when I could be taking hits to the face. I don't want to be playing a nasty game of "Stop hitting yourself" at that point.
I love the card, since it's very annoying when you're facing it, and it being an instant is a much better fit than wrath for us, but I feel we already have that effect in Living End, even potentially faster.
We can deal with creatures in graveyards easier than a 4 mana with double white that requires them to attack with the creatures. If you're splashing white Path is good, of course, but consider that splashing white probably will require you to trim Field/Ghost Quarter, and some Cryptic Commands.
Also agree that some number of Street Wraiths would help you. It's free cycling plus a body in the yard (and Swampwalk can be relevant). Of course you won't go crazy with them against aggro or burn, but 1 or 2 are almost always great.
I would trim 1 Living End, specially if you're running Paths (even more with Settle), it's very rare that you will need 4, and you have tutors for them. 1 can fall to discard/counter, and you still have 2 more. I can't remember a game when I casted Living End more than 2 times (and 2 times is not that frequent, it means 1 was more of a sweeper and the second one the lethal one). Even if they get all of them, you can still play the game and kill with Curators and Obstructionists.
Has anybody tried playing Chalice of the Void maindeck? Chalice on 1 hits so many things and barely hurts us.
List of hits at 1:
BG Tron -> chromatic stars/spheres, stirrings, relic, expedition map. (19 cards approx)
Grixis DS -> Push, inquisition, Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions, Stubborn Denial, Thought Scour, Thoughtseize, Death Shadow (approx 24 cards)
Humans -> Vial, Inspector, Champion, Hierarch (approx 14 cards, they run Cavern of Souls though)
Burn -> Lavamacer, Swiftspear, Guide, Bolt, Spike (approx 18 cards, and another one at 2 shuts down the rest except rift bolts)
Affinity -> 12 cards hit at 0, 8 at 1 and 16 at 2 if we manage to Living End to stop from re-building
Eldrazi Tron -> Not a very good match for Chalice (that's why they run it, lol), only hits Expedition Maps reliably
Jeskai Control -> Bolt, Path, Serum Visions and Snare (14 cards approx)
Storm -> Serum Visions, Opt, Noxious revival and sleight at 1 (approx 12 cards). But Chalice at 2 is KO, shutting them off completely.
Dredge -> Not the best for Chalice, Neonate, darkblast, and hand-casted Faithless Lootings.
Titanshift -> Probably too slow since we would need it at 2 to stop the ramping, and it would already have happened by then.
Mardu Pyro -> Thoughseize, Bolt, Inquisition, Push, hand Faithless Looting (approx 17 cards)
UW Control -> Serum Visions and Path (8 cards). At 2 it hits them hard, but would be a struggle to resolve unless we're already winning hard
BR Hollow One -> Adept, Inquiry, Looting from hand, Bolt (16 cards)
Abzan -> Path, Inquisition, Push, Thoughtseize (12 cards approx)
Traverse Shadow -> Push, inquisition, Traverse, Serum Visions, Stubborn Denial, Thought Scour, Thoughtseize, Death Shadow (21 cards approx)
Lantern -> Stirrings, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Shredder, Pixies, Cage, Pithing needle, Lantern, Spellbomb (approx 25! cards)
Counters Company -> Birds, Hierarch, Viscera Seer, not very good here hitting around 8 cards only
Eldrazi & Taxes -> Militant, Inspector, Path, Vial (around 12 cards)
Bogles -> Scout and Bogle, Path, Rancor, Armor, Hyena and Spider Umbras, and Gryff's boon (26! cards, and at 2 you shut down the rest)
Infect -> Glistener, Hierarch, defense, strike, mutagenic, groundswell, might, vines, pierce, twisted image (31! cards at 1)
Merfolk -> Cursecatcher, Vial, Kumena's speaker in UG (not much, a bigger hit on 2 but they run Cavern of Souls anyway)
Damn, putting that list together made me really want to try it, haha. Trimming the 1 mana counters and maybe the Engineered Explosives should make room for 3 Chalices, and a resolved Chalice should lessen the burden on the countermagic and the explosives, so it might work nicely.
Anybody tried it and can provide feedback? I love how hard it hits Infect and Shadow, also BG Tron. Lantern never gave me many issues. I haven't played Bogles, but it's a KO for them and they probably aren't a comfortable matchup.
Storm should be hit hard as well, and several other decks I didn't list (Ad Nauseaum, Martyr Proc/Soul Sisters, etc etc... Modern is crazy wide)
Edit: Forgot to add for reference, my decklist. I meant I would like to try trimming 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Spell Snare and 1 Engineered Explosives from maindeck, for +3 Chalices
i do really like faerie macabre in the sideboard though. not sure if it is better than leyline of the void, but leyline is so hit or miss.
edit: prob dont need chalice against bogles, since a living end is likely game over for them.
decks that chalice shines against are tron, lantern, death's shadow variants, and storm. though storm is a bit tougher as you have to land it on 2, but that is right in line with tolaria west. remember though that it doesnt shut the storm player down completely. they can still land a huge empty the warrens.
Lantern is also a pretty favorable matchup already with the Visions, cyclers, transmuting, living ends, cryptics and explosives, etc...
So Tron, Death Shadow, Storm, Infect and Burn would be the bigger improvements.
Of those, I'm worried about Burn and Infect the most, though an edge in the others in welcome. The thing is for it to be really effective you need to cast it on 1 in t2 (hopefully on the play!).
Tapping out to transmute for it and then casting it the next turn is pretty risky against Storm, as well as risks getting hit by discard by Shadow or Lantern while in your hand. Against Burn or Infect t4 is likely too late to matter as well.
That's why I was thinking of testing 3 of them. You can even cast another one at 2 counters later with minimal consequences for us, while shutting down a lot more cards in other decks.
The main reason I wanted to play it maindeck instead of sideboard is that g2 will probably bring in artifact/enchantment hate, and they might not be as good. I'd prefer to side them out g2 in the not so relevant games, especially if I expect Wear/Tear *shudder*.
Faerie Macabre has been great for me, another flying body, surprise effect even if tapped out, and you rarely have more than 2 annoying cards in their graveyard to remove. Ruining a Snap or EWit + removing some pesky creature, or getting rid of 2 creatures is usually enough to overwhelm them with ours. Not to mention the fringer case of saving AV, CC, AF or LE from a Surgical Extraction.
4 curator of mysteries
4 street wraith
4 striped riverwinder
Artifacts 1:
1 Engineered Explosives
Enchantments 6:
2 Search for Azcanta
4 As Foretold
spells: 20
4 ancestral vision
3 living end
4 remand
2 supreme will
4 cryptic command
3 Unsubstantiate
1 bojuka bog
3 field of ruin
1 ghost quarter
5 island
1 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 tolaria west
2 watery grave
3 nimble obstructionist
1 tormod's crypt
2 dispel
2 hurkyl's recall
1 dismember
1 Ashiok, nightmare weaver
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Echoing Truth
Deck name came from my buddy who plays abzan and totally hated playing against this pile of trash.
I have a mix of black to fetch for EE mb and pop it against 1 or 2 cmc. Or even hard-cast street wraith/LE.
I was play 1 of Drift of Phantasms, but Supreme will is way better for digging.
Search for Azcanta is prime because worst case it eats an abrupt decay to clear way for you as foretold, but if it does not get removed it does WORK. Always bin your creatures at upkeep, saves you mana.
Please critique!