Smuggler's Copter isn't a bad card at all, but it's only conditional discard, which I've always found to be harder to work with; your opponent can block it to prevent you from having any madness options, and even when you land a hit it's only a 1-time discard option. Considering that you also are prevented from abusing one of madness's key traits, that being creatures with madness being able to be played as virtual instants, putting constraints on that is completely counter intuitive to me. If you want to run a creature that gives you a discard outlet at the 2 cmc slot, then you'd be far better off with something like Ravenous Bloodseeker, Oona's Prowler, or even Bloodrage Brawler(although this also has the same pitfalls as the copter). There's a few decent 2 drop discard enablers for creatures in R/B, but one of the discard enabler's restrictions matter more to a madness deck than they do to even something like reanimator. Ideally, you want your discarders ability to have no mana cost, no tapping requirement(as it restricts you to 1 use per cycle of turns), and no cap on the number of times it can be used per turn(also limiting the uses per turn cycle), and lastly, and probably the easiest restriction to work with and still keep all the strengths inherent in a madness deck, is your discarder should preferrably only require you to discard 1 card to activate the ability. Now, out of all of those preferred stats, Zombie Infestation is one of the few outlets we have access to in R/B at the 2 cost slot that fits every single one except for requiring 2 cards instead of 1(which I'm fairly certain is the reason for 4 Squee's in Tenshi's original list). I've scoured all the potential discard enablers at the 2 cost spot, and Oona's Prowler was the ONLY card I found in R/B that was modern legal that fit ALL of the preferred discard outlet requirements. The only downside being that discarding to prowler reduces it's power, and any player can use the ability, however, there is an argument to be had for that to be an advantage. If you look at prowler's text another way, it sorta reads: When this creature attacks, defending player may discard a card. If they don't, they take 2 damage. And you then look at Prowler's power/toughness as 1/1, and it fits. If it read THAT way, it would probably be played a lot more. So why shouldn't it be then even BETTER if we're looking to discard madness cards and whatnot?
Well, the problem arises when you realize just how much this deck leans on the zombie tokens created by infestation. In every game I get a Call instead of an infestation, it takes far longer to win and those games are the ones I seem to lose the most often. The deck wins by going wide with 2/2s, the couple times I tried to play it by replacing infestation and call with creature enablers, I just didn't have the gas to do it and my creatures were far outclassed. Sure, the 2/2 zombie tokens are even easier to outclass, but again, we go wide with them so it doesn't matter. It was after I realized this that I went and tried out Hollow One, as with just 1 activation of infestation, hollow one only costs 1, but also, I quickly fell in love with the gem of Rally the Peasants; if you're playing Tenshi's original list, going wide with tokens, then rally seems almost an auto-include as at least a 1-of, if not a 2-of.
Is anyone else aware of any discard enablers in R/B that are 2 converted mana cost, and fit the requirements to be about en par with Wild Mongrel/Noose Constrictor? That is, other than the prowler? I have looked for a few hours in gatherer and I can't find anything else. The discard ability must cost 1 card, have no mana requirement or tapping requirement, and have no limit on the number of times it can be used each turn. If someone can find a red/black creature that fits that description can you PLEASE point it out to me?
Well I'm going to explain the reasonings of each card you asked to me:
Hollow One: This card is the nuts. I usually play it for 1 or even free and help yopu in the first turns to beat hard. Later it can block big guys if needed.
Hazoret the fervent: This card is really awesome. It's a discard outlet if needed, but this is not the main reason top play it. The two main reasons are that it gives us reach so we can finish the games without needing to attack and is a 5 power indestructible haste creature that will beat every single turn or block if needed and there are not a lot of played answers to him (only dismember and path to exile (from the most played removals) get rid of him), but today in the fatal push meta is a good choice. anyways in my testings it's really a good adittion to the deck and I always want one.
NO liliana of the veil: I initially played 3 lilis but after lot of games I realized that i didn't want to pay 3 for a discard outlet that doesn't provide me board advantage (and sometimes helps opponents plan) and the -2 edict effect was way outcalsed by the pariah ability to make the opponent sacrifice three creatures. Because of that I began to reduce the number of them and finalyy all of them and moved her to the sideboard.
NO lingering souls: Lingering souls is a really good card and also have lot of sinergy with the rest of the deck. The problem is that when I tested them I realized that I wanted to be able to cast them twice so white was needed then and because of that the manabase was much worse.
Because of that I included the bloodghast, because they are also good against control and are a free "madness" card. Anyways I think is a matter of taste to play lingering souls or bloodghast. LS are usually better but requires white in the deck to effectively use them with all their potential. Without them you can then stay in Br.
About really the peasants, it could be a good addition as a 1 or 2 of as finishers if you dedcice to include white in your manabase but I haven't tested them so can't say something about it. Testing will be needed to decide if it is relevant.
I don't understand how adding 1 Godless Shrine for the front side of Lingering Souls, or the front half of Rally the Peasants, hurts the mana much at all? Even if just running the 2 Souls, being able to cast the front half AND the back half is great vs control; further pressuring their counter suite.
And I too and slowly coming around to the conclusion that Lili is feeling rather lackluster in this build. I'd much rather have Hollow One's in her place so that's what I've been playing and it's been great, you're totally right and I'm glad you agree with what I said earlier, Hollow One IS bonkers.
I'm not telling that including a single godless shrine hurts a lot but if you include only one probably you will need to increase the number of fetchlands to search for it so the manabase begin to become more fragile and hurt much more. Imagine something like:
You are going to lightning bolt yourself with your lands a lot while being more susceptible to blood moon. Anyways I'm not saying is a bad idea, I really like lingering souls in this deck because is really useful and powerful card. In fact I probably run more than two if I would play white so If you test the white splash please give us more info about how it goes.
And yes, hollow one is nuts, you can faitless looting on second turn and then cast the 4/4 for 1, you can use infestation and cast it for 1 or you can even do more obscene things and play it for free. Also you are right, liliana (at least in my testings) become less and less useful. As I said finally I have had to remove them because they were not good enough to be MD.
Ah, I see your point on the manabase. I haven't really had to add any other way of getting the shrine, with only 2 souls and only really wanting to cast the front half against counterspells, it's a fairly narrow case when I'd actually have it in my opener AND be facing control. I see your point though, and the more white you start leaning on then yeah, but that is also the cool part about Rally(and souls), you can even play it in your build, and like Tenshi did with Souls, only cast the flashback.
That's so far. I've gotten about maybe 100 games in with Tenshi's list, and about 30 or so -Lilianas and +Hollow Ones. I'm liking the Hollow Ones in Lili's spot to no end. If I end up having any problems where I can't cast souls, I will be immediately taking out the shrine, but I doubt I'd ditch souls totally, it's still a super great card to discard, still giving you efficient resources.
This is the list I've been testing and it feels great! I know some cards seem odd but I've found them all to have very useful spots. Priest has been really good as a source of removal in situations like counters company, crawler has been great to activate draw from cryptbreaker, copter allows some great filtering, and something I don't see anyone run is bridge. Bridge is hands down a game winner vs some decks these days. It's very easy with 1 squee to be able to get my attacks in while being able to stop my opponent. 1 lili could still be cut but her ult isn't something to sneeze at once you stop the opponent from attacking you. Post board infestation seems bad vs rip so I usually cut a couple of them but g1 infestation with squee is your best piece imo. This deck wins through gy hate rather easily too which is really nice. So far after finalizing this list this am I am 6-1. Lost to abzan g2 thanks to a top deck decay after I ts him and the G3 I just hit too many lands and not enough value discard cards.
Beat
affinity 2-0
Bant taxes 2-0 (2 matches in a row even with them having t2 RIP)
U/w control 2-1 (tons of sb hate too including RIP)
Abzan 2-0 my draws were much better this match
Dredge 2-0 my board was just way bigger and sb really helped. Sniper was also amazing here.
Etron 2-1 get bridge/bloodmoon out and hope to not get balistad/aid'd out of the game. While aggressively attacking them.
EDIT: Just beat burn but I'll be adding another cb to the board for a ts and finally cut the lili for the 3rd call because it was a nail biter.
Not to mention sniper is kind of trash against vizier. I'm wondering if he's worth the slot. Wouldn't IoK or seize be better in that spot?
Yeah, on further reading, I also found that Vizier of Remedies completely hoses Ruthless Sniper. Even worse news for the Devoted Vizier match-up, games where Zombies Madness started off with Ruthless Sniper tended to involve a lack of discard outlets or mana (especially concerning with a mana hog discard outlet) more often.
As for Smuggler's Copter, remember that it loots when it attacks or blocks, not when it connects. Definitely better when you look at it that way!
Not to mention sniper is kind of trash against vizier. I'm wondering if he's worth the slot. Wouldn't IoK or seize be better in that spot?
Yeah, on further reading, I also found that Vizier of Remedies completely hoses Ruthless Sniper. Even worse news for the Devoted Vizier match-up, games where Zombies Madness started off with Ruthless Sniper tended to involve a lack of discard outlets or mana (especially concerning with a mana hog discard outlet) more often.
As for Smuggler's Copter, remember that it loots when it attacks or blocks, not when it connects. Definitely better when you look at it that way!
Sniper is definitely worth a slot imo. You have a lot of cards to bring in vs counters coco (2 cage, 2 cb, 2or3 darkblast, and if they don't have vizier sniper hoses their entire plan.
Yeah I've had a lot of great games where Sniper's pulled more than his weight. That said, of course he's bad against Vizier. That goes without saying.
I totally forgot about Olivia's Dragoon, that also fits the bill, probably better than Prowler I reckon, although testing will be needed to see if it's better than infestation. I'll get back to ya'll on that.
Yeah I've had a lot of great games where Sniper's pulled more than his weight. That said, of course he's bad against Vizier. That goes without saying.
I totally forgot about Olivia's Dragoon, that also fits the bill, probably better than Prowler I reckon, although testing will be needed to see if it's better than infestation. I'll get back to ya'll on that.
Infestation gives you zombies that can draw you cards. I think it's the best pre board outlet we have and couldn't imagine going below 4.
Yea I've gotten in a dozen or same games and got to try the dragoon a number of times...Infestation is def. our #1 outlet, hands down.
And you also make a good point, if we just keep Vizier off the board we're golden. I've also found in most games vs them game 1 they tend to play druid first, and you have a window of time where you can usually nuke the druid before they can combo. But yeah, without vizier on board sniper's a lot better, and like I said he pulls so much weight he most def. earns his spot, acting as our actual biggest source of removal. When someone had mentioned earlier that we only run one push and one darkblast, I commented about how sniper's also removal essentially, and darn good removal at that.
Gravecrawler is something I have been thinking about as well, I think I mentioned it earlier. I'm torn on it to be honest, as I think it would probably make opponents bring in graveyard hate more often against us, while also making us more succeptible to it. He can't be played at instant speed like most of the creatures we end up having in play, either. That said, maybe 2 isn't a bad number like you've got there KTROJAN. It's something you've got me willing to try at least. Ensnaring Bridge is an interesting choice. Having squees means we usually end up with 2 cards in hand at the end of our draw step after having 0 in hand, making our zombos able to attack, but then it also sorta forces you to pitch those cards during your turn. Idk, probably warrants testing as well at least; one-sided attack abilities are great. Great ideas!
What's ya'lls thoughts on maybe a sword or 2 in the board? Light and shadow gives us coverage against wrath/damnation, and fire/ice seems like it could be good as well. I just remember how good swords can be in a strategy that goes wide with tokens, always having a dude around to pick one up is nice.
Yea I've gotten in a dozen or same games and got to try the dragoon a number of times...Infestation is def. our #1 outlet, hands down.
And you also make a good point, if we just keep Vizier off the board we're golden. I've also found in most games vs them game 1 they tend to play druid first, and you have a window of time where you can usually nuke the druid before they can combo. But yeah, without vizier on board sniper's a lot better, and like I said he pulls so much weight he most def. earns his spot, acting as our actual biggest source of removal. When someone had mentioned earlier that we only run one push and one darkblast, I commented about how sniper's also removal essentially, and darn good removal at that.
What's ya'lls thoughts on maybe a sword or 2 in the board? Light and shadow gives us coverage against wrath/damnation, and fire/ice seems like it could be good as well. I just remember how good swords can be in a strategy that goes wide with tokens, always having a dude around to pick one up is nice.
Pariah is also amazing removal. I don't actually run push or blast anymore and am down to just 3 sniper. Vs most decks I block and use bgh or pariah until bridge locks me from being attacked. I know my list isn't the norm but I tuned it for a lot of situations like that where I'll bend but just don't break. I think swords are too slow by a lot.
Yeah pariah's removal too absolutely, and in fact our only out to an Emrakul, but at least it's an out. Although it's kinda hard to evaluate it on paper, in play, for us, the card is bonkers-good, I just have a habit of overlooking it when discussing removal as it's sorta like 1/2 removal, but I guess it's probably more like 2 cards in one. I find that it essentially reads 6/5 flying, madness BBB, sacrifice 3 creatures: target opponent sacrifices 3 creatures. Makes it darn good removal if you ask me. I'm still running tenshi's with no lili and hollow one in her place, I think next I might try copter over a few Call. I doubt I'll take out darkblast, as it's just so good vs affinity, but the argument could be made for push. We should even be running another 2 minimum blasts for affinity in the board, as this deck is weak vs 2 things; decks that can get under it(affinity, hollow vine, etc) and combo, I'm pretty sure this was tenshi's reasoning behind the blasts in the board alongside all the discard for combo.
Yeah pariah's removal too absolutely, and in fact our only out to an Emrakul, but at least it's an out. Although it's kinda hard to evaluate it on paper, in play, for us, the card is bonkers-good, I just have a habit of overlooking it when discussing removal as it's sorta like 1/2 removal, but I guess it's probably more like 2 cards in one. I find that it essentially reads 6/5 flying, madness BBB, sacrifice 3 creatures: target opponent sacrifices 3 creatures. Makes it darn good removal if you ask me. I'm still running tenshi's with no lili and hollow one in her place, I think next I might try copter over a few Call. I doubt I'll take out darkblast, as it's just so good vs affinity, but the argument could be made for push. We should even be running another 2 minimum blasts for affinity in the board, as this deck is weak vs 2 things; decks that can get under it(affinity, hollow vine, etc) and combo, I'm pretty sure this was tenshi's reasoning behind the blasts in the board alongside all the discard for combo.
I haven't found affinity to be all that bad. Not easy but not horrible. I have 2 copter, 4 pariah, for flying blockers. 3 bridge to stop them later that they can't destroy. bloodmoon/blasts post board, sniper does work, and honestly pariah transformed again can just catch them in really odd spots. Then once they have a couple guys pumped up bgh takes care of it. Obviously they have nut draws you can't beat but once you grind it out it's amazing some of the wins this deck can pull off. Plating is the tough card to beat so you have to pick your spots to block so you can deal with it. Gets easier once you have a sniper/bridge for me.
Here's an example of a game I had yesterday vs them. My t2 I cast infestation then t3 I drop land and pass so my board is 3 land 1 infestation 6 cards in hand. Affinity t4 is mox, drum, inkmoth, 2 glimmervoid ravager, pest, and plating on ravager. They fire up inkmoth and attack with all 3. I discard all 6 cards (2 squee but I doubt it mattered at that point) and cast pariah for madness. I now have 3 creatures to sack vs 3 creatures attacking. They sac all three and I have a 6/5 clack with 2/2's minimum every turn after. Opponent scooped t5.
What a play vs affinity! But let's be honest, if they did that on turn >4<, they didn't get the nuts draw or even a good one, sounds like a barely keepable one, or you somehow staunched the bleeding earlier? Otherwise that's not such a great performance of the deck, just an average one, but still is a showcase of the raw power of this deck.
Do you find copter and the extra pariah give you a bit more game vs affinity? As I said I'm essentially running tenshi's list, just -1 swamp +1 shrine, -3 lili +4 hollow one -1 call, and I seem to have a little more trouble if they have at least a good start, not just the nuts draw. Just speculating here, but it SEEMS the pariah would be particularly good in that match, and I KNOW sniper is. You run some cards I don't, and I'm just curious as to whether or not that helps in that matchup, as I've only gotten to use it once or twice vs affinity so far(pariah that is) and at those points usually I've already won. If it's that good to stop them in their tracks on just a good draw, obv not the nuts one like you said we're ALL a bit weak to that except maybe like, what, g/w//mono-white lifegain lol? If so I wouldn't hesitate to throw the fourth one in. I'm trying to figure out what to throw out for the 4th copy of Hollow One; I've got no problems cycling it early to dig deeper, and then recur it later...the card is even better in our build than the hollow one/vengevine build as we can fully abuse all of its' text and we don't have to warp our decklist to abuse it. Do you think your list is better vs an unknown metagame than tenshi's? Roughly, how much have you played with each?
I'm also curious about some sideboard choices you made KTROJAN...what was your line of thinking in the 3-3 split between Thoughtseize and Collective Brutality? Brutality's better vs affinity and coco/vizier builds, but the seize is better vs combo which I think we have a harder time with overall. I assume the Surgical Extraction is also there for combo in place of the fourth seize? It's also awesome vs tron which is worth noting a second time, as I mentioned somewhere on page 1 that I liked it vs tron as you can rip one of their peices completely. Hitting a power plant etc turn 1 with seize and then in the same turn to extract all of 'em...tron players REALLY hate that one lol.
Flying is very needed vs affinity so basically what I'm looking to do is buy as much time as I can until I can stablize. If they have the go wade fast opening hands they lose to blast/sniper easily and the slower go bigger hands lose to Pariah. It's a matter of finding the role you need to play and cards that can block/loot help with that a lot.
The 3/3 split is more a hedge vs burn than anything. Brutality is even better for us vs them than some decks because we can get squee back to get full value even after the first one. I'm trying to get to a paper event tonight too to get a better feel.
Yeah learning when we're the aggro deck and when we are the deck that needs to slow down the more aggro deck is crucial to winning with this deck, as it is with many decks. Ah, yeah brutality is good vs burn. Why the 1 surgical? You can't hope to see that very often
Oh and I've been thinking about Plunge Into Darkness as a 1 or 2 of, nice maindeck way to pull us out of a tight spot with the lifegain or in response to a board wipe, plus if we've vs tron it can get us a pariah if we dont have one. Seems like it could be good, or at least we can make decent use of both modes.
Oh and for reference this is what I've been running the past few days as it's obvious Voldaren Pariah easily deserves a 4th copy in our build, Anyone have any thoughts on this it has been rocking on MODO if ya'll want I can get a screen shot of a tournament top place and share at least for the naysayers; this deck is better than ANY far/creature based deck, various death shadow versions as well and as our tokens can kill their dudes which they spent time, mana, and cards to etbf while we just pitch cards we can still use/recur/flashback which makes it pretty one sided, as madness does. I'm telling ya'll, this deck's gonna make waves. Since 2011 I haven't been wrong and made money on speculation. I got my Grim Flayer's on the cheap, about $1.50 or so, and when I sold I tripled my investment. Eventually I'd like to open a store, but there's SERIOUS competition nearby with Juper Games(one of the holders of the biggest singles stock MTG card in this part of the country((southern NY state on the boarder with PA))). Point being, I like to consider myself a decent speculator.
Ok current decklist
CreaturesHollow
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Hollow One
4 Ruthless Sniper
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Big Game Hunter (hoses eldrazi and titan like crazy, and in nombo games its easily tossed to the bin to make a zonbie...scrabbler is the all-star of the deck, as it's a body you get for a normal discard, but it also has massive upside, not only do you get your best card back, but because of him turning discard into a 2/2 zombo; such good synergy I've been toying around with the idea of Call of the Netherworld), as you get the same absurd card advantage from scrabbler, just without the grizzy bear body, BUT it only costs 0 to madness. For my build it seems good....discard hollow one to infestation and also netherworld, madness the netherword to get the hollow one back, that's 2 discarded cards so i can drop hollow one for 1, or less. The card is the read deal!
I've tested lingering souls in my list instead of bloodghast and they are ok. In some games they help me to chump or survive against flying dudes although the deck becomes bit slower (cause blooghast are free attacker).
For now I've only switched 4 ghast for three lingering souls and added a third copy of lava axe so right now I've plenty of ways to discard while keeping my removal high enough (4 snipper, 3 axe, 4 hunters, 3 pariah).
I played Grave Scrabbler in earlier iterations of the deck but finally I removed them because:
1) I've added the kolaghan's command which are more useful
2) The scrabblers are ok but not awesome.
Also I think cryptbreaker are a waste of slots in the deck. For me they are slow and lot of times irrelevant. It's true that it can provide you card advantage with infestation and the scrabblers (that I don't play) but the deck is full of virtual card advantage so they seem unnecesary to me.
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Well, the problem arises when you realize just how much this deck leans on the zombie tokens created by infestation. In every game I get a Call instead of an infestation, it takes far longer to win and those games are the ones I seem to lose the most often. The deck wins by going wide with 2/2s, the couple times I tried to play it by replacing infestation and call with creature enablers, I just didn't have the gas to do it and my creatures were far outclassed. Sure, the 2/2 zombie tokens are even easier to outclass, but again, we go wide with them so it doesn't matter. It was after I realized this that I went and tried out Hollow One, as with just 1 activation of infestation, hollow one only costs 1, but also, I quickly fell in love with the gem of Rally the Peasants; if you're playing Tenshi's original list, going wide with tokens, then rally seems almost an auto-include as at least a 1-of, if not a 2-of.
Is anyone else aware of any discard enablers in R/B that are 2 converted mana cost, and fit the requirements to be about en par with Wild Mongrel/Noose Constrictor? That is, other than the prowler? I have looked for a few hours in gatherer and I can't find anything else. The discard ability must cost 1 card, have no mana requirement or tapping requirement, and have no limit on the number of times it can be used each turn. If someone can find a red/black creature that fits that description can you PLEASE point it out to me?
Hollow One: This card is the nuts. I usually play it for 1 or even free and help yopu in the first turns to beat hard. Later it can block big guys if needed.
Hazoret the fervent: This card is really awesome. It's a discard outlet if needed, but this is not the main reason top play it. The two main reasons are that it gives us reach so we can finish the games without needing to attack and is a 5 power indestructible haste creature that will beat every single turn or block if needed and there are not a lot of played answers to him (only dismember and path to exile (from the most played removals) get rid of him), but today in the fatal push meta is a good choice. anyways in my testings it's really a good adittion to the deck and I always want one.
NO liliana of the veil: I initially played 3 lilis but after lot of games I realized that i didn't want to pay 3 for a discard outlet that doesn't provide me board advantage (and sometimes helps opponents plan) and the -2 edict effect was way outcalsed by the pariah ability to make the opponent sacrifice three creatures. Because of that I began to reduce the number of them and finalyy all of them and moved her to the sideboard.
NO lingering souls: Lingering souls is a really good card and also have lot of sinergy with the rest of the deck. The problem is that when I tested them I realized that I wanted to be able to cast them twice so white was needed then and because of that the manabase was much worse.
Because of that I included the bloodghast, because they are also good against control and are a free "madness" card. Anyways I think is a matter of taste to play lingering souls or bloodghast. LS are usually better but requires white in the deck to effectively use them with all their potential. Without them you can then stay in Br.
About really the peasants, it could be a good addition as a 1 or 2 of as finishers if you dedcice to include white in your manabase but I haven't tested them so can't say something about it. Testing will be needed to decide if it is relevant.
https://spellsnare.com/2017/07/21/modern-br-madness-decklist/
They give a fair assessment of the build.
And I too and slowly coming around to the conclusion that Lili is feeling rather lackluster in this build. I'd much rather have Hollow One's in her place so that's what I've been playing and it's been great, you're totally right and I'm glad you agree with what I said earlier, Hollow One IS bonkers.
I'm not telling that including a single godless shrine hurts a lot but if you include only one probably you will need to increase the number of fetchlands to search for it so the manabase begin to become more fragile and hurt much more. Imagine something like:
You are going to lightning bolt yourself with your lands a lot while being more susceptible to blood moon. Anyways I'm not saying is a bad idea, I really like lingering souls in this deck because is really useful and powerful card. In fact I probably run more than two if I would play white so If you test the white splash please give us more info about how it goes.
And yes, hollow one is nuts, you can faitless looting on second turn and then cast the 4/4 for 1, you can use infestation and cast it for 1 or you can even do more obscene things and play it for free. Also you are right, liliana (at least in my testings) become less and less useful. As I said finally I have had to remove them because they were not good enough to be MD.
That's so far. I've gotten about maybe 100 games in with Tenshi's list, and about 30 or so -Lilianas and +Hollow Ones. I'm liking the Hollow Ones in Lili's spot to no end. If I end up having any problems where I can't cast souls, I will be immediately taking out the shrine, but I doubt I'd ditch souls totally, it's still a super great card to discard, still giving you efficient resources.
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Smuggler's Copter
Creature (27)
4 Big Game Hunter
2 Bloodhall Priest
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Grave Scrabbler
2 Gravecrawler
3 Ruthless Sniper
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Voldaren Pariah
3 Call the Bloodline
4 Zombie Infestation
Land (21)
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Dragonskull Summit
11 Swamp
2 Blood Moon
3 Collective Brutality
2 Darkblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
This is the list I've been testing and it feels great! I know some cards seem odd but I've found them all to have very useful spots. Priest has been really good as a source of removal in situations like counters company, crawler has been great to activate draw from cryptbreaker, copter allows some great filtering, and something I don't see anyone run is bridge. Bridge is hands down a game winner vs some decks these days. It's very easy with 1 squee to be able to get my attacks in while being able to stop my opponent. 1 lili could still be cut but her ult isn't something to sneeze at once you stop the opponent from attacking you. Post board infestation seems bad vs rip so I usually cut a couple of them but g1 infestation with squee is your best piece imo. This deck wins through gy hate rather easily too which is really nice. So far after finalizing this list this am I am 6-1. Lost to abzan g2 thanks to a top deck decay after I ts him and the G3 I just hit too many lands and not enough value discard cards.
Beat
affinity 2-0
Bant taxes 2-0 (2 matches in a row even with them having t2 RIP)
U/w control 2-1 (tons of sb hate too including RIP)
Abzan 2-0 my draws were much better this match
Dredge 2-0 my board was just way bigger and sb really helped. Sniper was also amazing here.
Etron 2-1 get bridge/bloodmoon out and hope to not get balistad/aid'd out of the game. While aggressively attacking them.
EDIT: Just beat burn but I'll be adding another cb to the board for a ts and finally cut the lili for the 3rd call because it was a nail biter.
Yeah, on further reading, I also found that Vizier of Remedies completely hoses Ruthless Sniper. Even worse news for the Devoted Vizier match-up, games where Zombies Madness started off with Ruthless Sniper tended to involve a lack of discard outlets or mana (especially concerning with a mana hog discard outlet) more often.
As for Smuggler's Copter, remember that it loots when it attacks or blocks, not when it connects. Definitely better when you look at it that way!
For R/B 2-cmc discard outlets, there's Olivia's Dragoon.
Sniper is definitely worth a slot imo. You have a lot of cards to bring in vs counters coco (2 cage, 2 cb, 2or3 darkblast, and if they don't have vizier sniper hoses their entire plan.
I totally forgot about Olivia's Dragoon, that also fits the bill, probably better than Prowler I reckon, although testing will be needed to see if it's better than infestation. I'll get back to ya'll on that.
Infestation gives you zombies that can draw you cards. I think it's the best pre board outlet we have and couldn't imagine going below 4.
And you also make a good point, if we just keep Vizier off the board we're golden. I've also found in most games vs them game 1 they tend to play druid first, and you have a window of time where you can usually nuke the druid before they can combo. But yeah, without vizier on board sniper's a lot better, and like I said he pulls so much weight he most def. earns his spot, acting as our actual biggest source of removal. When someone had mentioned earlier that we only run one push and one darkblast, I commented about how sniper's also removal essentially, and darn good removal at that.
Gravecrawler is something I have been thinking about as well, I think I mentioned it earlier. I'm torn on it to be honest, as I think it would probably make opponents bring in graveyard hate more often against us, while also making us more succeptible to it. He can't be played at instant speed like most of the creatures we end up having in play, either. That said, maybe 2 isn't a bad number like you've got there KTROJAN. It's something you've got me willing to try at least. Ensnaring Bridge is an interesting choice. Having squees means we usually end up with 2 cards in hand at the end of our draw step after having 0 in hand, making our zombos able to attack, but then it also sorta forces you to pitch those cards during your turn. Idk, probably warrants testing as well at least; one-sided attack abilities are great. Great ideas!
What's ya'lls thoughts on maybe a sword or 2 in the board? Light and shadow gives us coverage against wrath/damnation, and fire/ice seems like it could be good as well. I just remember how good swords can be in a strategy that goes wide with tokens, always having a dude around to pick one up is nice.
Pariah is also amazing removal. I don't actually run push or blast anymore and am down to just 3 sniper. Vs most decks I block and use bgh or pariah until bridge locks me from being attacked. I know my list isn't the norm but I tuned it for a lot of situations like that where I'll bend but just don't break. I think swords are too slow by a lot.
I haven't found affinity to be all that bad. Not easy but not horrible. I have 2 copter, 4 pariah, for flying blockers. 3 bridge to stop them later that they can't destroy. bloodmoon/blasts post board, sniper does work, and honestly pariah transformed again can just catch them in really odd spots. Then once they have a couple guys pumped up bgh takes care of it. Obviously they have nut draws you can't beat but once you grind it out it's amazing some of the wins this deck can pull off. Plating is the tough card to beat so you have to pick your spots to block so you can deal with it. Gets easier once you have a sniper/bridge for me.
Here's an example of a game I had yesterday vs them. My t2 I cast infestation then t3 I drop land and pass so my board is 3 land 1 infestation 6 cards in hand. Affinity t4 is mox, drum, inkmoth, 2 glimmervoid ravager, pest, and plating on ravager. They fire up inkmoth and attack with all 3. I discard all 6 cards (2 squee but I doubt it mattered at that point) and cast pariah for madness. I now have 3 creatures to sack vs 3 creatures attacking. They sac all three and I have a 6/5 clack with 2/2's minimum every turn after. Opponent scooped t5.
Do you find copter and the extra pariah give you a bit more game vs affinity? As I said I'm essentially running tenshi's list, just -1 swamp +1 shrine, -3 lili +4 hollow one -1 call, and I seem to have a little more trouble if they have at least a good start, not just the nuts draw. Just speculating here, but it SEEMS the pariah would be particularly good in that match, and I KNOW sniper is. You run some cards I don't, and I'm just curious as to whether or not that helps in that matchup, as I've only gotten to use it once or twice vs affinity so far(pariah that is) and at those points usually I've already won. If it's that good to stop them in their tracks on just a good draw, obv not the nuts one like you said we're ALL a bit weak to that except maybe like, what, g/w//mono-white lifegain lol? If so I wouldn't hesitate to throw the fourth one in. I'm trying to figure out what to throw out for the 4th copy of Hollow One; I've got no problems cycling it early to dig deeper, and then recur it later...the card is even better in our build than the hollow one/vengevine build as we can fully abuse all of its' text and we don't have to warp our decklist to abuse it. Do you think your list is better vs an unknown metagame than tenshi's? Roughly, how much have you played with each?
The 3/3 split is more a hedge vs burn than anything. Brutality is even better for us vs them than some decks because we can get squee back to get full value even after the first one. I'm trying to get to a paper event tonight too to get a better feel.
Ok current decklist
CreaturesHollow
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Hollow One
4 Ruthless Sniper
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Big Game Hunter (hoses eldrazi and titan like crazy, and in nombo games its easily tossed to the bin to make a zonbie...scrabbler is the all-star of the deck, as it's a body you get for a normal discard, but it also has massive upside, not only do you get your best card back, but because of him turning discard into a 2/2 zombo; such good synergy I've been toying around with the idea of Call of the Netherworld), as you get the same absurd card advantage from scrabbler, just without the grizzy bear body, BUT it only costs 0 to madness. For my build it seems good....discard hollow one to infestation and also netherworld, madness the netherword to get the hollow one back, that's 2 discarded cards so i can drop hollow one for 1, or less. The card is the read deal!
Enchantments:
4 Zombie Infestation
3 Call of the Bloodline
Instants:
2 Rally the Peasants
1 Lingering Souls
1 Driven // Despair(considering lava axe here as at least it does more dmg and is also a discard outlet)
Lands
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Godless Shrine
10 Swamp
Next I'll be testing copter, but hollow one is sooooo good for us.
For now I've only switched 4 ghast for three lingering souls and added a third copy of lava axe so right now I've plenty of ways to discard while keeping my removal high enough (4 snipper, 3 axe, 4 hunters, 3 pariah).
I played Grave Scrabbler in earlier iterations of the deck but finally I removed them because:
1) I've added the kolaghan's command which are more useful
2) The scrabblers are ok but not awesome.
Also I think cryptbreaker are a waste of slots in the deck. For me they are slow and lot of times irrelevant. It's true that it can provide you card advantage with infestation and the scrabblers (that I don't play) but the deck is full of virtual card advantage so they seem unnecesary to me.