Maybe you should play decks before telling people what's good and what isn't lol. I don't need your help building a deck that works but thank you. Mana bases are step one of building a deck and the fact that yours is what it is doesn't make me believe you're some guru we should be listening to.I'm not even going to get into how wrong I think some of your thought processes are of how this deck plays out but maybe go back and read this thread.
Maybe you should play decks before telling people what's good and what isn't lol. I don't need your help building a deck that works but thank you. Mana bases are step one of building a deck and the fact that yours is what it is doesn't make me believe you're some guru we should be listening to.I'm not even going to get into how wrong I think some of your thought processes are of how this deck plays out but maybe go back and read this thread.
Geez I'd hate to break down this post bit by bit, but clearly you are new to magic so let me help you some.
First mana bases are not step 1 in building a deck. You first figure out what the deck will do and the cards you want to play then build a mana base to support it. Mana bases are often tweaked to get the exact right build. Mine is what 2 cards off from ideal??? Nice
2nd is you disagree with what statement? The fact that this deck wants to go wide? Bridge being better than sniper in this format at stopping big threats like Emmy, goyf, DS? Using looting to dig for combo pieces?
3rd I've been playing since the dark. Top 8ed and top 16 several tournaments. Was critical in the development of several decks that are in the top tiers or just flat banned for being too good. In fact I'm the one that suggested SSG in living end and hypergenisus. I'm the guy that got Summer Bloom banned by creating titan bloom, in old extended before modern even existed. So yeah I am pretty darn good at the game. And you are welcome.
Maybe you should play decks before telling people what's good and what isn't lol. I don't need your help building a deck that works but thank you. Mana bases are step one of building a deck and the fact that yours is what it is doesn't make me believe you're some guru we should be listening to.I'm not even going to get into how wrong I think some of your thought processes are of how this deck plays out but maybe go back and read this thread.
Geez I'd hate to break down this post bit by bit, but clearly you are new to magic so let me help you some.
First mana bases are not step 1 in building a deck. You first figure out what the deck will do and the cards you want to play then build a mana base to support it. Mana bases are often tweaked to get the exact right build. Mine is what 2 cards off from ideal??? Nice
2nd is you disagree with what statement? The fact that this deck wants to go wide? Bridge being better than sniper in this format at stopping big threats like Emmy, goyf, DS? Using looting to dig for combo pieces?
3rd I've been playing since the dark. Top 8ed and top 16 several tournaments. Was critical in the development of several decks that are in the top tiers or just flat banned for being too good. In fact I'm the one that suggested SSG in living end and hypergenisus. I'm the guy that got Summer Bloom banned by creating titan bloom, in old extended before modern even existed. So yeah I am pretty darn good at the game. And you are welcome.
Sure is nice to have your experience and maybe you can make this deck so good it gets banned too! You asked if the deck was good I gave you my opinion.
3-1 tonight guys. Lost to tezzeret with thopter combo 0-2 (wanted another surgical here but even then idk if I could have won). 2-0'd grixis ds (probably our best matchup in modern) 2-1'd dredge (conflag seemed like the problem card) and 2-0'd turns (ran over him g1 the landed a bridge g2 and he had 0 answers to it). Went down to 3 snipers to add a grim lava man. Down to 3 pariah to add a 3rd blood moon. I want another surgical somewhere in the sb I think but idk what to cut for it (likely kalitas even though it seemed fine vs dredge). Deck feels great though and is a blast to play still! Updated my ideal list on the previous page.
My buddy borrowed my esper Cheeri0's deck and beat me like5 out of6 games so that matchup is a nightmare lol. He never even sb'd lol
Anyways This is my side before including white. With white the side becomes much better.
So no blood moon in the 75 and only fulminator mage to try to win vs scapeshift? I assume this is because you are then a 3 color deck? I also see you don't care for bridge at all in the 75 and that's fine but then you just hope to run them over/go wider? What white cards are you wanting to put in the board? Stony? Rip isn't good and leyline you still can't cast/don't care about too much. Maybe worship?
As you say I'm in three color deck and blood moon sometimes can hurt me more than help. Anyways is a broken card agains certain decks so if you stay in Br then 3 moons are a must.
As you say I'm in three color deck and blood moon sometimes can hurt me more than help. Anyways is a broken card agains certain decks so if you stay in Br then 3 moons are a must.
Rest in peace as you said hurt us a lot so is not good in this deck.
Also thinking in peace of mind against hyper aggro decks like naya and burn
I don't have that hard of a time with affinity to basically just throw away the scapeshift/tron matchup and I think withought moon that's what you do. Solemnity you want against what? Worship I could see being good but idk about at the cost of big mana matchups. God forbid someone take out your 1 white source too (I'd guess you'd have to go up to minimum 2 white source post board). For me 3 colors just seems like too big of a tax but let us know once you actually get some games in with it.
Megatog201, what's your thoughts on a few Psychotic Episode in the board or even a 2-2 split with BGH, with another 1 episode in the board to swap out the other BGHs for combo/control matches?
Haha just read that report, 3-1's quite nice, and yeah this deck was built with ds in mind. I haven't been able to get in many games of late myself but hopefully soon. I'm hoping we can maybe get some more people on this deck and get it placing in some more official tourneys; it definitely deserves a spot as at LEAST tier 2.
I'll be changing this to a primer shortly, so ya'll know!
Also, Pcrusader, Rakdos Charm feels a little weak for you in the board at first glance. One mode's completely useless almost for you, the third, the artifact removal you have in By Force is pretty good, enough to just move that up to 2 if the charm's there for the second mode, and the first mode is I assume for dredge and any other GY strategies? There's probably a better option for that to use in this spot. For dredge match, I think Faerie Macabre is probably our best option, as it synergizes nicely and conflag's their only real problem card for us.
Episode is too cute. Appears like it could put in work, but worse than iok, or seize. Synergy with the discards feels nice, but honestly I feel like that card should be something else with a greater effect. That mana used should be doing more. Without madness it is awful.
Agreed 3-1 is a nice step.
I see the count of snipers going down. I'm so proud. (Tear) Looks like in your report that it was just bad against 2 of the decks and situationally decent against the other 2. But I could be wrong...
Glad to see the bridges did work for you.
I kinda see this becoming a free win madness or madness side board deck. Where you sit behind bridges or moons and go wider than the opponents can handle. The red version wants to burn them out or whatever. This deck can outvalue decks in the long game due to squee effectively drawing a card with every looting or helping make a board faster than they can draw removal.
Example I would like to give is let's say you have a mediocre hand and iok a player with that style deck. Hand is squee, blood moon, bridge, infestation. What is the correct card to rip out? Unless your mana base is unable to get the colors in time you probably take moon, but then you have to think which is worse? Bridge locking you out or squee powered infestation? That's a hard call. One can stop you. One can stall or even kill you.
Yea I kinda agree KTROJAN I was just suggesting that the macabre is probably better than charm if you're using charm for GY hate...but for in general gy hate yeah, the usual suspects are probably best, although the faerie probably warrants testing at least. I feel like if you're running the scrabbler version of this deck, the faerie's probably WAY better.
With mentioning scrabbler, I see some varying opinions on it. In playing, it's been actually a REALLY good card, enabling you to get 2 2/2 zombie tokens with infestation for 1B, while also getting back the first card you discarded all at instant speed; doesn't seem like much on the face of it but it's actually a whole heap of card advantage. Right there makes Hollow One cost 1! You can drop hollow one and 2 2/2 zombies out turn 3 easily. I wonder what you all think about the idea of if you are GOING to use the scrabbler, would Call to the Netherworld be good then too, enabling the same return effect and fulfilling a discard requirement for 0 mana? You don't get the 2/2 body like you do with the scrabbler but you get everything else(barring a squee or hollow one as call's more narrow only hitting black critters), and you don't have to pay 1B. Might warrant some testing, I think I'll be trying Faithless Looting, Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Archfiend of Ifnir and a call. I'll report later.
Archfiend looks like a really spicy bomb. Cost is not really that big of an issue since you can pitch it early and get it back late game. My only real ish with it is you are probably hell-bent by the time it comes down.
3-1 again tonight deck feels better and better each time. I went up to 4 moon main.
Infect 2-0
Boggles 2-0
Affinity 2-1
Bant coco 0-2
Coco didn't seem like a bad matchup but opponent drew like perfect g1 drawing one of 2 pride mage that he runs main board as well as having a 2 land starter of forest/plains with t1 bird. G2 I had him at 3 life when he draws Linvala stopping all of my creature removal then next turn he draws scooze. Linvala was back breaking though but it is what it is and I don't think I'd id change the deck from what I saw there.
I have 2 spots I'm still working on (tonight they were hazoret/archfiend over copter) and I might go with 1 mountain instead of the 3rd crypt and a player mentioned 1 abbey but idk if it'll fit in well enough.
Flex options
Vengeful pharaoh
Copter
Hazoret
Archfiend
Push
Spirit guide
**Faith of the Devoted- this is where I'm headed next. Bridge/moon lock has been so good that this speeds the clock up more in my estimates. Basically the same as hazoret (don't think I've ever attacked with him) only harder to remove and gains life for usually a lower cost. I also like how it hedges vs burn slightly.
...................
Also info of note I played about 4 preboard games vs LE and it felt very good losing 0 games.
Ok sorry it took me so long to post my paper results, been kinda busy lately.
My playgroup and I have been putting various iterations of this style of deck through their paces, testing it against about 90% of the field. Here's how it went.
Tempo Delver - 1-2 (this was actually a tough matchup; tempo builds, if they land an early delver, they have the ability to literally just answer everything we do and keep up from sticking a key piece. This match felt almost as bad as the tron match, not quite, but almost)
3 various Death's Shadow builds - 2-0 (this is easily our best match, and after speaking with Tenshi, he built this list with this match in mind)
Grixis Control - 2-1
U/W/x Control - 1-2/2-1 (depending on what variant, this match can be problematic; I find the u/w/r versions a little easier, as the targeted spot removal is easier for us to break through)
Infect - 2-1/0-2 (this also feels like it can be a tough match; hexproof, trample, etc all add up. The 4th pariah was an all-star here though, and perhaps more Ensnaring Bridge would've given me a bit more of an edge, the one match I managed to get one twice was the 2-1 match, and one they put a rancor and 1 other buff on a dude, bridge about shuts 'em off so they have to keep their dudes small if they want to get under it, but that slows them down enough where we can break through)
Tron - 1-2 (probably our worst match)
Affinity - 2-0 (this felt pretty comfy; we can block/trade all day with them and come out ahead, we have darkblast main and I run sniper who is exceptional vs affinity)
Here's the current list so far. Bridge is a really good card, the more I play it the more I like it. Moon easily can slide right into the maindeck, although it's not necessary, but it can steal you games you might've not won otherwise. After the tron match and the delver/american control variants, feels like our WORST matchups, moon fixes all our problems there darn near, but, then again, in our good matchups, moon isn't needed at all really...the matchups I won without it it felt like I didn't need moon at all, and I was typically sitting with tons of options while they were on the ropes, playing pure defense.
And megatog....you're inkling was correct. The few times I was able to play Archfiend of Ifnir, I was either already hellbent or already behind and it wasn't enough to put me ahead again, or a mix of the two, OR, I was already ahead and it was really just a win-more card. This is also kinda the reason sniper is there; gets down a lot sooner than the fiend, and in a situation where you don't have a lot of gas and are on the back foot, it can, if nothing else, shrink some of their dudes a bit and buy you a little more time. That's sniper at his worst(other than a dead draw vs control), and at his best he can really rock any deck relying on small dudes; I won both rounds vs affinity off the back of sniper as he basically reads: "1: destroy target creature" against them.
Faith of the Devoted is def a great card to hedge vs burn. I'm still not sold on 0 Ruthless Sniper, but I've been getting less impact from it. It's only really good against decks like bant variants(to kill their mana dorks and slow 'em down) or weenie strategies, of which there isn't many in modern in the top tier/1.5 tier; merfolk kinda, but yeah. It's not a dead draw, but you may be right by running lavamancer instead, I'll be probably trying that next. Ensnaring Bridge felt almost overpowered it was so good. With longer games, you can purposely stay hellbent except for pre-combat and combat on your own turn(using a double squee return to make all your tokens able to attack) and then just repeat, getting your own attacks through while preventing any from them. Rally the Peasants has won me a few games out of nowhere, and I highly suggest ya'll try at least one in your list; it can end games out of nowhere in a single alpha strike. I'm really liking how this is evolving, and I REALLY appreciate all the input you've all shared, some darn good ideas have been brought up and we've made this deck quite a bit better than it was when I first laid eyes on it. Keep it comin'!
What would that do for us???
Put two more creatures into play at the end of an opponent's turn to close out a game?
I'm still playing my list and having success while thinking some of your choices are not the best way to go.
I tested again cryptbreasker and after a few games I removed it completely for never using them again for sure.
Ensnaring bridge, ate least for me, are sideboard cards. There are some maches where they are dead cards and doesn't provide pressure.
I've added white after playing several games because it open more the sideboard
My list right now is:
3 Big Game Hunter
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 hollow one
3 Voldaren Pariah
3 Hazoret The Fervent
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Call the Bloodline
Other Spells (8)
4 faithless looting
3 lightning axe
4 lingering souls
7 Swamp
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
? Have you looked at the deck lists?
Geez I'd hate to break down this post bit by bit, but clearly you are new to magic so let me help you some.
First mana bases are not step 1 in building a deck. You first figure out what the deck will do and the cards you want to play then build a mana base to support it. Mana bases are often tweaked to get the exact right build. Mine is what 2 cards off from ideal??? Nice
2nd is you disagree with what statement? The fact that this deck wants to go wide? Bridge being better than sniper in this format at stopping big threats like Emmy, goyf, DS? Using looting to dig for combo pieces?
3rd I've been playing since the dark. Top 8ed and top 16 several tournaments. Was critical in the development of several decks that are in the top tiers or just flat banned for being too good. In fact I'm the one that suggested SSG in living end and hypergenisus. I'm the guy that got Summer Bloom banned by creating titan bloom, in old extended before modern even existed. So yeah I am pretty darn good at the game. And you are welcome.
Sure is nice to have your experience and maybe you can make this deck so good it gets banned too! You asked if the deck was good I gave you my opinion.
My buddy borrowed my esper Cheeri0's deck and beat me like5 out of6 games so that matchup is a nightmare lol. He never even sb'd lol
I am curious, what is your sideboard? Against, Etron, Affinity, etc? i.e. all the meta decks. In general WHAT IS your sideboard lol
Anyways This is my side before including white. With white the side becomes much better.
So no blood moon in the 75 and only fulminator mage to try to win vs scapeshift? I assume this is because you are then a 3 color deck? I also see you don't care for bridge at all in the 75 and that's fine but then you just hope to run them over/go wider? What white cards are you wanting to put in the board? Stony? Rip isn't good and leyline you still can't cast/don't care about too much. Maybe worship?
White provides Stony silence, leyline of sanctity, solemnity and worship. As you foretold worship is good in a deck that can always have creatures into the battlefield.
Rest in peace as you said hurt us a lot so is not good in this deck.
Also thinking in peace of mind against hyper aggro decks like naya and burn
I don't have that hard of a time with affinity to basically just throw away the scapeshift/tron matchup and I think withought moon that's what you do. Solemnity you want against what? Worship I could see being good but idk about at the cost of big mana matchups. God forbid someone take out your 1 white source too (I'd guess you'd have to go up to minimum 2 white source post board). For me 3 colors just seems like too big of a tax but let us know once you actually get some games in with it.
On another note I do wonder if we should be on 1 Archfiend of Ifnir
I'll be changing this to a primer shortly, so ya'll know!
Also, Pcrusader, Rakdos Charm feels a little weak for you in the board at first glance. One mode's completely useless almost for you, the third, the artifact removal you have in By Force is pretty good, enough to just move that up to 2 if the charm's there for the second mode, and the first mode is I assume for dredge and any other GY strategies? There's probably a better option for that to use in this spot. For dredge match, I think Faerie Macabre is probably our best option, as it synergizes nicely and conflag's their only real problem card for us.
Agreed 3-1 is a nice step.
I see the count of snipers going down. I'm so proud. (Tear) Looks like in your report that it was just bad against 2 of the decks and situationally decent against the other 2. But I could be wrong...
Glad to see the bridges did work for you.
I kinda see this becoming a free win madness or madness side board deck. Where you sit behind bridges or moons and go wider than the opponents can handle. The red version wants to burn them out or whatever. This deck can outvalue decks in the long game due to squee effectively drawing a card with every looting or helping make a board faster than they can draw removal.
Example I would like to give is let's say you have a mediocre hand and iok a player with that style deck. Hand is squee, blood moon, bridge, infestation. What is the correct card to rip out? Unless your mana base is unable to get the colors in time you probably take moon, but then you have to think which is worse? Bridge locking you out or squee powered infestation? That's a hard call. One can stop you. One can stall or even kill you.
With mentioning scrabbler, I see some varying opinions on it. In playing, it's been actually a REALLY good card, enabling you to get 2 2/2 zombie tokens with infestation for 1B, while also getting back the first card you discarded all at instant speed; doesn't seem like much on the face of it but it's actually a whole heap of card advantage. Right there makes Hollow One cost 1! You can drop hollow one and 2 2/2 zombies out turn 3 easily. I wonder what you all think about the idea of if you are GOING to use the scrabbler, would Call to the Netherworld be good then too, enabling the same return effect and fulfilling a discard requirement for 0 mana? You don't get the 2/2 body like you do with the scrabbler but you get everything else(barring a squee or hollow one as call's more narrow only hitting black critters), and you don't have to pay 1B. Might warrant some testing, I think I'll be trying Faithless Looting, Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Archfiend of Ifnir and a call. I'll report later.
Infect 2-0
Boggles 2-0
Affinity 2-1
Bant coco 0-2
Coco didn't seem like a bad matchup but opponent drew like perfect g1 drawing one of 2 pride mage that he runs main board as well as having a 2 land starter of forest/plains with t1 bird. G2 I had him at 3 life when he draws Linvala stopping all of my creature removal then next turn he draws scooze. Linvala was back breaking though but it is what it is and I don't think I'd id change the deck from what I saw there.
I have 2 spots I'm still working on (tonight they were hazoret/archfiend over copter) and I might go with 1 mountain instead of the 3rd crypt and a player mentioned 1 abbey but idk if it'll fit in well enough.
Flex options
Vengeful pharaoh
Copter
Hazoret
Archfiend
Push
Spirit guide
**Faith of the Devoted- this is where I'm headed next. Bridge/moon lock has been so good that this speeds the clock up more in my estimates. Basically the same as hazoret (don't think I've ever attacked with him) only harder to remove and gains life for usually a lower cost. I also like how it hedges vs burn slightly.
...................
Also info of note I played about 4 preboard games vs LE and it felt very good losing 0 games.
Updated list
3 Ensnaring Bridge
Creature (23)
4 Big Game Hunter
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Grave Scrabbler
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Ruthless Sniper
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Voldaren Pariah
4 Blood Moon
3 Call the Bloodline
2 Faith of the Devoted
4 Zombie Infestation
Land (21)
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
11 Swamp
4 Collective Brutality
2 Darkblast
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
My playgroup and I have been putting various iterations of this style of deck through their paces, testing it against about 90% of the field. Here's how it went.
Tempo Delver - 1-2 (this was actually a tough matchup; tempo builds, if they land an early delver, they have the ability to literally just answer everything we do and keep up from sticking a key piece. This match felt almost as bad as the tron match, not quite, but almost)
3 various Death's Shadow builds - 2-0 (this is easily our best match, and after speaking with Tenshi, he built this list with this match in mind)
Grixis Control - 2-1
U/W/x Control - 1-2/2-1 (depending on what variant, this match can be problematic; I find the u/w/r versions a little easier, as the targeted spot removal is easier for us to break through)
Infect - 2-1/0-2 (this also feels like it can be a tough match; hexproof, trample, etc all add up. The 4th pariah was an all-star here though, and perhaps more Ensnaring Bridge would've given me a bit more of an edge, the one match I managed to get one twice was the 2-1 match, and one they put a rancor and 1 other buff on a dude, bridge about shuts 'em off so they have to keep their dudes small if they want to get under it, but that slows them down enough where we can break through)
Tron - 1-2 (probably our worst match)
Affinity - 2-0 (this felt pretty comfy; we can block/trade all day with them and come out ahead, we have darkblast main and I run sniper who is exceptional vs affinity)
Here's the current list so far. Bridge is a really good card, the more I play it the more I like it. Moon easily can slide right into the maindeck, although it's not necessary, but it can steal you games you might've not won otherwise. After the tron match and the delver/american control variants, feels like our WORST matchups, moon fixes all our problems there darn near, but, then again, in our good matchups, moon isn't needed at all really...the matchups I won without it it felt like I didn't need moon at all, and I was typically sitting with tons of options while they were on the ropes, playing pure defense.
And megatog....you're inkling was correct. The few times I was able to play Archfiend of Ifnir, I was either already hellbent or already behind and it wasn't enough to put me ahead again, or a mix of the two, OR, I was already ahead and it was really just a win-more card. This is also kinda the reason sniper is there; gets down a lot sooner than the fiend, and in a situation where you don't have a lot of gas and are on the back foot, it can, if nothing else, shrink some of their dudes a bit and buy you a little more time. That's sniper at his worst(other than a dead draw vs control), and at his best he can really rock any deck relying on small dudes; I won both rounds vs affinity off the back of sniper as he basically reads: "1: destroy target creature" against them.
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Big Game Hunter
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Voldaren Pariah
3 Ruthless Sniper
3 Smuggler's Copter
Enchantments
4 Zombie Infestation
2 Call the Bloodline
3 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Fatal Push
1 Rally the Peasants
Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
10 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Blood Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Collective Brutality
Faith of the Devoted is def a great card to hedge vs burn. I'm still not sold on 0 Ruthless Sniper, but I've been getting less impact from it. It's only really good against decks like bant variants(to kill their mana dorks and slow 'em down) or weenie strategies, of which there isn't many in modern in the top tier/1.5 tier; merfolk kinda, but yeah. It's not a dead draw, but you may be right by running lavamancer instead, I'll be probably trying that next. Ensnaring Bridge felt almost overpowered it was so good. With longer games, you can purposely stay hellbent except for pre-combat and combat on your own turn(using a double squee return to make all your tokens able to attack) and then just repeat, getting your own attacks through while preventing any from them. Rally the Peasants has won me a few games out of nowhere, and I highly suggest ya'll try at least one in your list; it can end games out of nowhere in a single alpha strike. I'm really liking how this is evolving, and I REALLY appreciate all the input you've all shared, some darn good ideas have been brought up and we've made this deck quite a bit better than it was when I first laid eyes on it. Keep it comin'!