Izzet Charm alone is worth the blue splash, cutting Cathartic Reunion which was far and away the weakest card in the deck to fit it in. Reunion was amazing with Squee and early but quickly became terrible as the game progressed. Izzet charm+Wraith/Neonate trigger on turn two to dump Vines/Hollow One is nearly as good as reunion but comes with a ton of additional utility. Stubborn Denial in the board covers almost every noninteractive deck trying to go over the top. If the game goes late and you need to reccur Vines a second time, Squee does a much better job at ensuring you have a second creature than you would imagine, because if you are discarding Squee all game instead of pitching lands, you will be hitting your land drops.
After an incredible amount of games with Looting+Hollow One+Wraith variations, Im finally confident that i'm playing a near optimal list. As always, feedback is more than welcome.
Flamespeaker adept and Cunning Survior are much stronger here than they look. One burning inquiry turns them into 4 power beaters with evasion. On turn three having two of them in play and casting a line such as inquiry>looting>inquiry>street wraith provides 20 power, being mostly unblockable. Having that synergize with hollow one is just gravy. I initially didn't have survivor in the list, trying vengevine and considering flamewake Phoenix but this deck largely ignores grave hate which is a huge boon in favor of cunning survivor in my mind.
While I agree it could be correct to be running bolt, I have felt the deck is fast enough to play its removal in the side similar to dredge/affinity and most of that was because I so often just found myself pitching bolt to a discard spell for no value. Fiery temper could be interesting though I havnt tried it.
Scour is a card ive used alongside goyf and mandrills for a very long time but inquiry and looting are just as good of fuel and cantrips in general neither cheapen hollow one nor pump adept/survivor.
Haha maybe I'll give him a shot. Other than squee and just the wind the deck doesn't really have much that it wants to dump into the grave aside from lands. So there the random discard concerns me but he does have potential.
@jhg
I love reveler and did consider him. A little lite on instants/sorceries but discarding your hand and drawing three is great for this deck at almost every point in the game. Seems like more of a sideboard card but he could be great.
After playing almost 10 leagues on mtgo I've made some changes. With the amount of cards being pitched in any one game, having only squee as a card to pitch for value it often felt like an underutilization of the graveyard and like I could be getting more out of my loot spells. Additionally, the deck was seriously lacking reach. Cunning survivor, while impressive in its own right, seemed like the weak link to cut in order to add flamewake Phoenix and fiery temper to address both of those issues. I'm not entirely sold on temper being better than bolt here but it's synergy has been nice in testing. Phoenix has been incredibly strong, and is a perfect turn two complement to a turn one hollow one. Cutting survivor opens the deck up to more grave hate but that's just the nature of the deck, I suppose.
Call the bloodline/ zombie infestation is a nice engine with squee. Kinda reminds me of lightning rift, if only that were legal. There are some awesome black madness cards and there is an arguement here for playing black instead of green but goyf is just too good in my mind.
Update: fiery temper would be a good options As bolts numbers 5/6 but too many things need to die early to not run bolt. Temper is highly synergistic and amazing against Lilliana but I just don't see squeezing more than 4 burn spells in here. Phoenix has proven itself to be quite good though.
Is black a better splash color than blue? I think there's a strong case for it.
1) You can straight swap Stubborn Denial for Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek and Just the Wind for Big Game Hunter. Discard is a proactive way of getting more card types for Tarmogoyf, counters aren't. You can also drop some Bolts for Fatal Push.
2) You get to play Death's Shadow. If you want to go really deep you can combo it with Varolz, the Scar-Striped, but that's probably not necessary.
3) Claim // Fame. Between DS and Goyf you should have enough targets for the Claim side. The Fame side is a nice bonus when you discard it to a loot effect. Haste is hard to play around because they have to leave back blockers to avoid dying, but doing so costs them tempo.
4) Lotleth Troll. Squee loves feeding it. The nice thing about it is that you can discard whenever you want, for tricks with Flameblade Adept, or to time a Hollow One.
5) Collective Brutality could take the place of Cathartic Reunion. Adds more disruption to the deck over pure speed, although it is a nonbo with Death's Shadow.
After looking over your list, I put together a mono red list with a lot of the same cards, just to try on MTGO. Surprisingly good results so far. Casting a turn 1 inquiry and discarding 2 hollow ones feels awful, but I guess you got to just roll with it. Blood moon steals games, as always.
It very well could be. There is a ton of synergy within black, not to mention black makes removing would-be blockers much easier.
1) I certainly see the comparison here between thoughtseize and denial. My thoughts here are that this deck plays more like a tempo deck, and having an opponent actually spend resources on casting a spell to have it countered provides more opportunities to 'go under' linear opponents or removal heavy opponents while with thoughtseize can't help you when they are topdecking. Stubborn denial is also better at protecting your threats IMO. My preference from blue comes from how little space there is for interaction in the deck, the interaction that you do run must cover as many holes as possible. I think 3-4 stubborn denial is stronger than only 4 discard spells, if that makes sense. Purely talking from a deck space perspective here. I also don't think this deck wants to drop bolt, as its quite fast. The reach seems quite good. With all this being said, black still offers a great disruption suite. Im almost positive a Jund or even a Grixis version could be successful.
2) Death's Shadow is awesome, I just feel like at a certain point matchup-wise it may be a better bet to just be playing a traditional DS deck. I don't have much experience playing that deck though. Varolz actually looks like it could be quite good, even if too cute. Thats a great interaction.
3) card seems made for the hypothetical deck were talking about. [card]Driven//Despair[card] could be another great include as the deck can swarm with Hollow Ones early.
4) One issue with madness cards in the deck currently is that it only has sorcery speed discard outlets. Troll would make big game hunter much better. If you went this direction it would probably lead to bloodghast I imagine.
5) Brutality to me is the main draw to black for the strategy. My only thoughts are that I would only run it with 4 squee. Casting brutality and pitching three to get a free hollow one is 5 cards leaving your hand. That's a big step towards hellbent which significantly weakens faithless looting and inquiry. I would expect to more often use is for value and to make Hollow One a one drop instead. Swapping reunion for it is probably a great call. I love reunion but they seem to occupy the same space, and brutality can still be a great card without discarding anything which I like.
Truthfully, I only play Temur colors in Modern. Thats my preference, albeit a weird one. So that is a big reason I havn't tried black.
@the nobodys yeah, inquiry can be a crapshoot. Pitching hollow ones turn one is sad times, but I wouldn't say that generally leads to losses, it's just a random element of the deck. The free wins you get when you don't discard it are still worth it. Im not sure I like spirit guide, the deck wants as many cards in hand each turn as possible to keep the loot spells going. I don't know if it really needs that extra boost in speed. If you exile a guide and casting a looting i the same turn, youre going down two cards in a way that doesnt add to the board.
I've been monkeying around with Hollow One after seeing this thread. Right now I'm testing a Jund version. Sideboard is really unrefined (as is the maindeck). The deck needs a lot more testing to get the correct number of cards, but so far I like where it's going.
Vengevine is simply a much more explosive start than flamewake Phoenix, and is a better threat on its own. The only way to swap the two required more one drops to recur him. Neonate is the obvious fit here and I cut inquiry to fit him in. This makes turn one hollow one rely on multiple wraiths+neonate or looting+wraith but overall in brief testing the deck seems more explosive despite that. Adept isn't quite the slugger he was before but has still been very good. Neonate turn one, with any of the looting spells turn two puts you in a prime position to drop vengevines/hollow ones on turn two.
After playing the deck some more at taking it to a LGS, I can definitely see the potential. Some notes from the games I played with the Jund version I put together (the list from my above post).
Flameblade Adept is much more powerful than I expected. Seems like his best use is to pump him large on single turn and eat a huge chunk of their life. Won a couple of games by chipping their life total, then doing a mass card dump with some combination of Burning Inquiries, Street Wraiths and/or Faithless Looting, or a mass dump to Lotleth Troll for lethal.
Copperline Gorge is hilariously wrong in my list. Those should be Blackcleave Cliffs.
Lotleth Troll is an all-star, as long as you have enough creatures to support running him. He was frequently a 5/4 or more during most games and the Trample+Regenerate make him an awesome threat and resilient blocker. Terminate and Dismember make him a sad panda though.
It can definitely support a 3rd Delve threat. I plan on testing another Tasigur, or perhaps a Hooting Mandrills or Gurmag Angler. Not sure which at this moment.
Flamewake Phoenix was ‘okay’ but the evasion did come in handy during games that stalled out a bit.
The Living End matchup is fun. You can land an early clock, like Hollow One and Flameblade Adept to whittle their life total down early game, but discard all your other beaters to the grave. It seems like you can put more creatures in the grave, faster than them, but I need more testing against that matchup.
Thoughtseize was merely ‘meh’. Most of the time, you want to focus on landing a turn one clock if you can, so turn 1 Thoughtseize seems wrong most of the time. I can definitely see why Lemonbuster opted for going blue to add Stubborn Denial to cover holes. There were a few times where Thoughtseize was crucial, but I almost think moving them to the sideboard is correct, to just bring them in against linear/combo decks where you need to stop key pieces from resolving.
My extra Collective Brutalities came in from the sideboard most games. I definitely want to up those (like Lemonbuster mentioned). The lose 2, gain 2 mode was a lot more relevant than I expected.
Death Shadow makes a lot of sense if running Thoughtseize, but I’m thinking about moving away from those in the mainboard.
Fatal Push was rather mediocre as well. Most of the time, my guys could just ram into the opponent, making removal being unnecessary. I might replace these with Lightning Bolt for more reach.
Call to the Netherworld could be an interesting option. It lets you get back Lotleth Troll, Street Wraith, Tasigur, or Death’s Shadow.
I grossly misjudged the speed of this deck. I put a lot of cards in the side that would allow me to switch to a more controlling role. I think it may be right to evaluate yourself as the beatdown in most matchups.
4 Insolate Neonate
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Street Wraith
Spells:14
4 Faithless Looting
2 Burning Inquiry
4 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Stubborn Denial
1 Lightning Axe
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelery
2 Just the Wind
2 Blood Moon
2 Faerie Macabre
Izzet Charm alone is worth the blue splash, cutting Cathartic Reunion which was far and away the weakest card in the deck to fit it in. Reunion was amazing with Squee and early but quickly became terrible as the game progressed. Izzet charm+Wraith/Neonate trigger on turn two to dump Vines/Hollow One is nearly as good as reunion but comes with a ton of additional utility. Stubborn Denial in the board covers almost every noninteractive deck trying to go over the top. If the game goes late and you need to reccur Vines a second time, Squee does a much better job at ensuring you have a second creature than you would imagine, because if you are discarding Squee all game instead of pitching lands, you will be hitting your land drops.
After an incredible amount of games with Looting+Hollow One+Wraith variations, Im finally confident that i'm playing a near optimal list. As always, feedback is more than welcome.
It definitely should, Thanks!
@existenz
Flamespeaker adept and Cunning Survior are much stronger here than they look. One burning inquiry turns them into 4 power beaters with evasion. On turn three having two of them in play and casting a line such as inquiry>looting>inquiry>street wraith provides 20 power, being mostly unblockable. Having that synergize with hollow one is just gravy. I initially didn't have survivor in the list, trying vengevine and considering flamewake Phoenix but this deck largely ignores grave hate which is a huge boon in favor of cunning survivor in my mind.
While I agree it could be correct to be running bolt, I have felt the deck is fast enough to play its removal in the side similar to dredge/affinity and most of that was because I so often just found myself pitching bolt to a discard spell for no value. Fiery temper could be interesting though I havnt tried it.
Scour is a card ive used alongside goyf and mandrills for a very long time but inquiry and looting are just as good of fuel and cantrips in general neither cheapen hollow one nor pump adept/survivor.
Thanks for the input!
Also if you put Hollow One in the thread name, I think you will get more traffic.
Fairie Macabre was a great suggestion.
Is this the deck Tibalt is good in?
Agreed, not being able to cast multiple loot spells a turn has lost me games before. Tarn probably is the next best red source.
Good call!
Haha maybe I'll give him a shot. Other than squee and just the wind the deck doesn't really have much that it wants to dump into the grave aside from lands. So there the random discard concerns me but he does have potential.
@jhg
I love reveler and did consider him. A little lite on instants/sorceries but discarding your hand and drawing three is great for this deck at almost every point in the game. Seems like more of a sideboard card but he could be great.
Updated OP to reflect changes.
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Swamp
4 Big Game Hunter
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Ruthless Sniper
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Voldaren Pariah
1 Driven / Despair
1 Fatal Push
2 Lingering Souls
4 Call the Bloodline
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Zombie Infestation
2 Blood Moon
2 Collective Brutality
2 Darkblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Lingering Souls
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Thoughtseize
Ruthless sniper is certainly awesome though.
1) You can straight swap Stubborn Denial for Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek and Just the Wind for Big Game Hunter. Discard is a proactive way of getting more card types for Tarmogoyf, counters aren't. You can also drop some Bolts for Fatal Push.
2) You get to play Death's Shadow. If you want to go really deep you can combo it with Varolz, the Scar-Striped, but that's probably not necessary.
3) Claim // Fame. Between DS and Goyf you should have enough targets for the Claim side. The Fame side is a nice bonus when you discard it to a loot effect. Haste is hard to play around because they have to leave back blockers to avoid dying, but doing so costs them tempo.
4) Lotleth Troll. Squee loves feeding it. The nice thing about it is that you can discard whenever you want, for tricks with Flameblade Adept, or to time a Hollow One.
5) Collective Brutality could take the place of Cathartic Reunion. Adds more disruption to the deck over pure speed, although it is a nonbo with Death's Shadow.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Bloodrage Brawler
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Hollow One
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Fiery Temper
3 Blood Moon
1) I certainly see the comparison here between thoughtseize and denial. My thoughts here are that this deck plays more like a tempo deck, and having an opponent actually spend resources on casting a spell to have it countered provides more opportunities to 'go under' linear opponents or removal heavy opponents while with thoughtseize can't help you when they are topdecking. Stubborn denial is also better at protecting your threats IMO. My preference from blue comes from how little space there is for interaction in the deck, the interaction that you do run must cover as many holes as possible. I think 3-4 stubborn denial is stronger than only 4 discard spells, if that makes sense. Purely talking from a deck space perspective here. I also don't think this deck wants to drop bolt, as its quite fast. The reach seems quite good. With all this being said, black still offers a great disruption suite. Im almost positive a Jund or even a Grixis version could be successful.
2) Death's Shadow is awesome, I just feel like at a certain point matchup-wise it may be a better bet to just be playing a traditional DS deck. I don't have much experience playing that deck though. Varolz actually looks like it could be quite good, even if too cute. Thats a great interaction.
3) card seems made for the hypothetical deck were talking about. [card]Driven//Despair[card] could be another great include as the deck can swarm with Hollow Ones early.
4) One issue with madness cards in the deck currently is that it only has sorcery speed discard outlets. Troll would make big game hunter much better. If you went this direction it would probably lead to bloodghast I imagine.
5) Brutality to me is the main draw to black for the strategy. My only thoughts are that I would only run it with 4 squee. Casting brutality and pitching three to get a free hollow one is 5 cards leaving your hand. That's a big step towards hellbent which significantly weakens faithless looting and inquiry. I would expect to more often use is for value and to make Hollow One a one drop instead. Swapping reunion for it is probably a great call. I love reunion but they seem to occupy the same space, and brutality can still be a great card without discarding anything which I like.
Truthfully, I only play Temur colors in Modern. Thats my preference, albeit a weird one. So that is a big reason I havn't tried black.
@the nobodys yeah, inquiry can be a crapshoot. Pitching hollow ones turn one is sad times, but I wouldn't say that generally leads to losses, it's just a random element of the deck. The free wins you get when you don't discard it are still worth it. Im not sure I like spirit guide, the deck wants as many cards in hand each turn as possible to keep the loot spells going. I don't know if it really needs that extra boost in speed. If you exile a guide and casting a looting i the same turn, youre going down two cards in a way that doesnt add to the board.
4 Thoughtseize
3 Burning inquiry
4 Faithless Looting
1 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hollow One
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Street Wraith
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kozilek’s Return
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Collective Brutality
2 Terminate
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan’s Command
Update:
After some more testing and some inspiration from the RG vengevine deck that got a deck tech on SCG, I've decided to test going in another direction.
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Hollow One
4 Vengevine
4 Street Wraith
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
Spells:15
4 Faithless Looting
3 Cathartic Reunion
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Lightning Axe
2 Natural State
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Just the Wind
3 Blood Moon
1 Grim Lavamancer
Vengevine is simply a much more explosive start than flamewake Phoenix, and is a better threat on its own. The only way to swap the two required more one drops to recur him. Neonate is the obvious fit here and I cut inquiry to fit him in. This makes turn one hollow one rely on multiple wraiths+neonate or looting+wraith but overall in brief testing the deck seems more explosive despite that. Adept isn't quite the slugger he was before but has still been very good. Neonate turn one, with any of the looting spells turn two puts you in a prime position to drop vengevines/hollow ones on turn two.
EDIT: updated with a brief write up, but I believe at this point the deck is self explanatory.