Windborn Muse is another option if we want to go that route. A lot more vulnerable than Ghostly Prison and comes down a turn later, but can be found by Evo and Oath and has the ability to attack and block. Archangel of Tithes might be even more powerful, but is nearly impossible to cast. (Wooded Bastion?)
Taxing attacks is good against some aggressive cards (Signal Pest, Steel Overseer, Ezuri with finite mana, Mutavault, Blinkmoth Nexus, Lingering Souls, Reckless Bushwhacker, Bloodghast, Flameblade Adept, as well as Kiki combo, Empty the Warrens, Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach), but not against all of them (Aether Vial, Elvish Archdruid, Champion of the Parish, Cranial Plating, Bogles, Infect, Geist of Saint Traft).
This approach actually combines well with instant speed removal or chump blocking (P&K, Voice, Finks, Resto Angel) since both things punish opponents for attacking with only 1-2 creatures. Reflector Mage also seems potent in this context: Replaying a creature costs the opponent even more of his mana. Avalanche Riders works with that plan too by restricting mana and chump blocking.
I like Archangel of Tithes in the GW heavy or bant shell. Also who doesn't like jamming angels? The problem I see with it is against combo go wide like elves or devoted company, they can make one dude just huge anyway, or infinite mana.
Do you feel the extra black or red cards hurts your burn matchup?
I've been leaning towards bant only because I think unfortunately after voice and cobra that Coiling Oracle is the best two drop. I'm still looking for a better two drop as the slot is crucial, my dorks often get removed.
And because I've encounter a lot of burn in my area, fetching forests and plains all day has been great.
Oh and 4 hierachs over perform, as they do in most decks that can use them.
@maniospas Thanks for the analysis really helpful. I've taken out a plains for township and it has been great for me. (Because I want as many t1 forest-> dorks as possible) Overall I am having a blast with the deck.
FNM Report, around 12 players... went 4-0, lost in the top 4
Rd 1: Mardu Pyromancer
He didnt know what I was on and was running incredibly aggressive choosing to fire off faithless looting, into pyromancer, into lingering souls. I had natural T4 combo but just waited until T5 when he chose to tap out to finish him off. Easy win, didnt see discard.
Gm 2: Brought in 2 trackers and a staticaster for 2 felidar and a bird. He started with inquisition taking finks, I believe I had 3 lands, omens, finks,
felidar, maybe oath? He probably should have just taken the oath. I ended up finding staticaster off oath and riding that for a few turns until i just rallier valued him away with voices and ralliers off the top. Did play a tracker which ate removal right away as well.
Rd 2: Mono Red Prison
I knew this dude and knows he always plays bloodmoon so sorry to say I fetched into basics and valued my birds and cobras on opening hands. G1 went easy,
I combod him out on t4.
G 2: Brought in rec sage and acidic slime for a couple wall of omens. He played T2 torpor orb T3 Drops his hand full of rituals into bridge and I scoop.
G 3: I realize im basically racing bridge and just go all out aggro with 2 cobras, 2 voices, and 2 saheelis just copying voices for more damage. He played torpor orb again for reference.
Rd 3: Merfolk: G1 I just get overrun while she had a spreading seas on me... Couldnt stick a Saheeli or generate a favorable boardstate.
G2: Brought in Gearhulk, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Rec sage for 2 walls, thragtusk, and ewit. Ghostly Prison stalls a large boardstate and allows me to dig for combo to win.
G3: This was a long drawn out game when I played yet another ghostly prison then ripped a evolution staring down defeat on the next turn ussing it to evo finks into gearhulk which carried me to victory.
Rd 4: Elves: G1 I T3 combo.
G2: Brought in Gearhulk, 2 Ghostly Prison, Staticaster for titan, thragtusk, witness, finks. He had an insane hand and shaman hit me for 8 on t3, with 2 more shamans in hand i conceded with nothing but a wall on t2.
G3: He mulled to 4, I combod t4.
TOP 4:
Rematched Vs elves. G1 I mull an average 7 looking for a quick combo, find it and combo t4 on the play.
G2, I mull to 6 looking for the same thing, get punished with 0 lands, go to 5. Keep an average land land oath wall felidar hand. Die after 4-5 turns.
G3, I have land land wall evo evo and voice bird. He starts fast and I use the first evo grabbing staticaster, kill 1 dork but he starts the next turn pumping out 2 druids effectively eliminating staticaster. I Evo again for gearhulk to stabalize but he continues to topdeck coco and lead the stampede and just runs me over. GG
Thoughts: I need to suck it up and replace the prisons with EE, vs torpor orb, elves, and merfolk I would have rather had EE. With EE I dont think i need to replace rec sage or acidic slime with pridemage. I also want to make room for a single linvala, keeper in my SB due to elves and affinity at my LGS, not sure what to take out yet.
Outside of that, the deck felt pretty great and no one expected it which gave me some serious bonus points.
I know we've talked about this a lot but did you miss not having any Paths in the 75? Seems like it would've been useful to snipe Young Pyromancer, Devoted Druid / Ezuri / Archdruid, and the Islandwalk Lords. Not sure what all win-cons Red Prison was playing so I can't comment on whether it would've been useful at all there, but overall it seems well-positioned.
How did you feel about 4x Rallier? I've found him to be just "OK" vs Elves and Merfolk. My local Skred player also runs 3-4x Relic of Progenitus so Rallier wasn't amazing there last time I played that matchup. Rallier's probably good against Mardu's discard and destruction-based removal, though?
I know we've talked about this a lot but did you miss not having any Paths in the 75? Seems like it would've been useful to snipe Young Pyromancer, Devoted Druid / Ezuri / Archdruid, and the Islandwalk Lords. Not sure what all win-cons Red Prison was playing so I can't comment on whether it would've been useful at all there, but overall it seems well-positioned.
How did you feel about 4x Rallier? I've found him to be just "OK" vs Elves and Merfolk. My local Skred player also runs 3-4x Relic of Progenitus so Rallier wasn't amazing there last time I played that matchup. Rallier's probably good against Mardu's discard and destruction-based removal, though?
So, the only time I really wanted a path was vs Elves. They were the only deck to fast for me on a couple of turns and a path would have slowed them down by killing off an archdruid or ezuri. Red Prison was running Hazoret, Chandra, Rabblemaster, and Koth... Once again, in a shell like this the name of the game is speed. vs a deck without interaction I find it much more valuable to mull down to 6 if I dont see a way to build a combo G1. G2, I look for a ghostly prison, evolution, or way to combo fast.
Rallier is amazing when you cant combo or you are vs something like mardu pyromancer. Not having path doesnt bother me when I just dump 3-4 creatures on t2-3 that he cant keep in the gy.... the synergy between cobra, voice, and rallier make them all an auto 4 of for me. If your not playing them as a 4 of you are just missing out on some absolutely broken sequencing and turning into a less good gw value town or less good counters company style combo deck.
Obviously, these are just my opinions and i'm sure with more games played they will change but this is one of the more consistent speedy combo decks in the format and I aim to play it that way. The most appealing thing about the deck to me is its ability to out value midrange strategies when the combo isnt realistic and the voice/rallier/cobra package is a big part of that.
Couple notes:
* Arbor Elf are budget Hierarchs (but can sometimes tap for red)
* Teeg maindeck as a bullet to Storm
* Augur flex slot (would probably play Avalanche Riders if I can find one)
* Reveillark flex slot (debating over Sigarda, Heron's Grace)
Missing 2 cards in board, open to suggestions! I don't expect Affinity or Lantern which is why I've cut Stonies and Kataki. Are Stonies good enough against Tron that we want them anyway? (Most likely at least 1 G/x Tron and U Tron will be there)
They're out of my budget, but I will probably add 2x Engineered Explosives if I can borrow them for the event. Also debating more Paths and Magus of the Moon.
Has anyone tried Vendillion Clique? UU is tough but it could help clear the way to combo?
Couple notes:
* Arbor Elf are budget Hierarchs (but can sometimes tap for red)
* Teeg maindeck as a bullet to Storm
* Augur flex slot (would probably play Avalanche Riders if I can find one)
* Reveillark flex slot (debating over Sigarda, Heron's Grace)
Missing 2 cards in board, open to suggestions! I don't expect Affinity or Lantern which is why I've cut Stonies and Kataki. Are Stonies good enough against Tron that we want them anyway? (Most likely at least 1 G/x Tron and U Tron will be there)
They're out of my budget, but I will probably add 2x Engineered Explosives if I can borrow them for the event. Also debating more Paths and Magus of the Moon.
Has anyone tried Vendillion Clique? UU is tough but it could help clear the way to combo?
I prefer 4 cobra/4rallier to 2 arbor elf for sure. Much more explosive especially vs Tron allowing you to dump a ton of power out t2 and just race tron.
If the teeg is purely to combat storm, I find eidolon does it better as it can't be bolted and is much harder to grapeshot away. Most decks such as Tron, Scapeshift, and Coco decks have plenty of my ways to remove teeg.
Not a fan of riverwise auger in testing... The card has just never really done anything for me. Easy swap for magus if you think it's relevent in your meta.
I prefer a sun Titan to the reveillark as it can win games on the spot if you have access to a couple saheeli between the gy and battlefield and also provides just as much value vs midrange.
Without ee you are super weak vs go wide aggro like humans, elves, merfolk, affinity... consider a couple ghostly prison to fill the gap. I also find linvala great vs affinity and elves.
Only 1 way to remove artifacts and enchantments seems pretty loose, try and find room for another pridemage, or an angel of sanctions, or acidic slime.
Ide much rather see 4 voice and 2 oracle. Voice has a huge hedge vs midrange, control, and burn where oracle is only possibly better vs combo.
Everybody seems to be running witness. Do you usually go get it with evolution? I've cut mine from the decklist since I almost never want to draw it and never want to go get it with evo/chord. never missed it.
For the people who have been running more mana dorks: dont you get flooded at some point? Do you get the feeling that there is too much air in the deck? Or does the explosive starts that they provide compensate that?
Stony Silence on the draw can range from unplayable to very good (they keep a egg-filled hand with no turn 3 tron). I believe the plan vs tron is to go full combo and trim the big things from this deck. Land destruction into combo usually does the trick. Gaddock teeg is very good vs them also.
Clique seems interesting. UU is certainly tough. I can see it being decent vs removal/combo decks/tron.
My List for reference. The maindeck baloth is a nudge to burn. I hate losing to it but it could be anything (another guardian, sigarda, maindeck riders)
The 1 ewit is just redundancy, for instance if your out of lands and can't seem to draw one, ewit will do the trick. If opp killed your saheeli and you can't find one ewit works. If you have played 2 oath and 1 is in the bin ewit can certainly back and help you dig. Just a slow catch all answer that doesn't usually hurt.
I prefer finks to Baloth for md burn hate as it's harder to negate with Skullcrack.
This deck doesn't flood off dorks nearly as much as counters company or other similar decks because lotus Cobra is still a relevent bear sitting at 2/1. Not to mention oath is really very valuable in this regard. Additionally, buying back fetches with rallies thins your deck a bit faster than if you were playing 1 land per turn.
We almost never pass the turn with open Mana and don't really play many bullets. Chording during main phase is unappealing. I would never run chord in this shell. Plus teeg is a no-go with chord.
UU is horrible as we want GG and WW and only UR if we don't have an oath or reliable dorks which isn't often.
I prefer 4 cobra/4rallier to 2 arbor elf for sure. Much more explosive especially vs Tron allowing you to dump a ton of power out t2 and just race tron.
Well, if that actually happened like this all the time, it would really be great in the matchup (and every other one). But let's be honest, even with all 4-ofs of these cards, you don't always get these draws. While you're increasing your chances to explode onto the board quickly, you also fill your deck with more cards that neither actually win on the spot nor interact with decks like Storm, Affinity or Titanshift. You do, however, get punished even harder by Anger of the Gods and similar sweepers.
While on the surface, Lotus Cobra has a relevant 2/1 body, in practice having a few 2/1s isn't always such a great thing. Imagine facing a 1/3 Baral or a 2/3 Reflector Mage or a Young Pyromancer with some tokens.
While Cobra has an extremely high ceiling, there are also a lot of ways it can go wrong.
I prefer 4 cobra/4rallier to 2 arbor elf for sure. Much more explosive especially vs Tron allowing you to dump a ton of power out t2 and just race tron.
Well, if that actually happened like this all the time, it would really be great in the matchup (and every other one). But let's be honest, even with all 4-ofs of these cards, you don't always get these draws. While you're increasing your chances to explode onto the board quickly, you also fill your deck with more cards that neither actually win on the spot nor interact with decks like Storm, Affinity or Titanshift. You do, however, get punished even harder by Anger of the Gods and similar sweepers.
While on the surface, Lotus Cobra has a relevant 2/1 body, in practice having a few 2/1s isn't always such a great thing. Imagine facing a 1/3 Baral or a 2/3 Reflector Mage or a Young Pyromancer with some tokens.
While Cobra has an extremely high ceiling, there are also a lot of ways it can go wrong.
In this specific scenario I was comparing a 4th cobra and a 4th rallier to 2 mana dorks.... Which in no way shape or form makes it easier to win on the spot, interact with storm affinity or titanshift, or get less punished by anger or sweepers.
You have to look at it like this... The deck has 2 very valid paths to victory, combo and value. Rallier assists with both of these, and once again like everyone else is saying a 2/1 snake is better than a 0/1 exaulted human.
@ Emzed - I have recently started to question the usefulness of Cobra, because there are scenarios where he's not that good (it dies to a 1-mana removal spell, or you dont have a 3rd land)... but, I REALLY REALLY REALLY hate the argument of "the 2/1 isn't that good". If you drop cobra, you replace it with a 0/1 with exalted. That's not any better.
There's plenty of arguments against Cobra, but the body isn't 1 of them!
I think the best part about cobra is it plays well with oath of nissa, whether you are short a rallier, a fetch land, or the cobra on early turns you can find what you need and attempt to do some broken things on t3.
Most people are looking for consistency, in which case storm takes the cake for combo decks and counters company takes the cake for creature combo. We are just explosive with multiple angle of attack. Storm IMO is better at both of these things, but should probably get taken down a notch with a nerf. We are far more resilient and better at generating value when the combo isnt online than counters company while they offer more consistency.
I understand the witness redundancy. I just felt that I needed a more impactful card.
Regarding finks/baloth: baloth lets you evo for titan. In my list I only have 2 4-drops which is why I chose baloth over finks.
Teeg is indeed a no-go with chord. But chord has been good for me nonetheless. Will keep running it. If you had to swap the chords you dont like from my list, what would you put? ewit and another hate card? ewit and another guardian?
I didnt even notice you on 1 guardian before, thats been by far the biggest trap in this deck if you ask me. You NEED at least 2, and i prefer more. I would make 1 chord into your second felidar and possibly even a third felidar. If not a third, ewit is a fine choice.
Would be interested in hearing your opinions on a second sun titan, you dont usually want to draw it, and certainly never want to see one in your opening 7.
Maximimizing card count for good utility effects sounds good, but rarely works. The reason is that each of the cards we're considering have a very real tradeoff (e.g. removal on Cobra slows us down a lot more, exalted is better at attacking through Bridge lock, Rallier nets no real value 50% of the time and cannot really outgrind anything with its meager body, etc) and the variance of those effects is considerably high, especially since any random piece of maindeck hate makes those effects absurdly worse in fulfilling their roles.
The most glaring problem to me is that lines like Cobra+Rallier into the combo have a very small chance of happening in the first case, so that boosting that chance cannot be considered a significant enough gain, especially since the same speed can be achieved with smoother curves.
I think the trap is that, if you play with higher numbers of Cobras and Ralliers, the deck becomes so inconsistent (with regard both to curving and to running enough value) that you often need to draw more of the same high-variance cards as topdecks in certain scenarios to do not lose. For example, if you run, say, 4 Cobras + 3 Ralliers it indeed feels right to want a 4th Rallier, when in reality some combination of the 4th Cobra, the 3rd Rallier and/or 3rd Cobra is what makes the deck inconsistent enough to regularly depend on more Rallier topdecks (later on against grinding decks, earlier to maximize the immediate combo against big mana and combo).
I dont think anyone is right or wrong at this point as the deck is no where near polished, but I havnt seen a list in a while from you and would be curious to see where you are at since you have advocated against the cobra/rallier full package.
I prefer 4 cobra/4rallier to 2 arbor elf for sure. Much more explosive especially vs Tron allowing you to dump a ton of power out t2 and just race tron.
If the teeg is purely to combat storm, I find eidolon does it better as it can't be bolted and is much harder to grapeshot away. Most decks such as Tron, Scapeshift, and Coco decks have plenty of my ways to remove teeg.
You can only safely dump a ton of power out T2 if you sequence T1 Dork into T2 Cobra and have a fetch in hand and have more good cards to dump and you don't think they have a sweeper. Rallier becomes significantly better if you have Cobra in play, Cobra is much more explosive if you have a Dork in play, and Dorks lay the foundation by providing the most consistent payoff (not landfall dependent) at the lowest mana investment cost. Additionally, Dorks provide the fastest Evo route to Eidolon vs Storm, and Staticaster or Kataki vs Affinity. This pyramid of sequencing pre-requisites is why I've come to favor the approach of 6x Dorks, 3x Cobras, and 2x Rallier after testing pretty much every combination of Dorks / Cobras / Ralliers that you can think of -- it's the best way to consistently sequence these cards in an explosive manner.
Eidolon of Rhetoric is certainly a stronger card vs Storm, but it's bad against so many decks, it doesn't synergize with Saheeli/Felidar, and it completely wrecks our sorcery-speed tempo plan to the point that it's not main-deckable at all. Gaddock at least fills in our weak 2-CMC curve slot and is decent against a wide variety of decks and problematic cards. He may not be a firm answer but he helps and is broad enough to be main-deckable.
Everybody seems to be running witness. Do you usually go get it with evolution? I've cut mine from the decklist since I almost never want to draw it and never want to go get it with evo/chord. never missed it.
For the people who have been running more mana dorks: dont you get flooded at some point? Do you get the feeling that there is too much air in the deck? Or does the explosive starts that they provide compensate that?
I stopped running Witness a while ago. Unlike Kiki-Chord most of our MB spells don't go into the graveyard for re-use and we're generally focused on more of a proactive tempo plan than a midrange grind plan. She doesn't help when Felidar gets Path'd which is how my combo is most frequently interrupted, and if we need another Felidar we can Evo for one directly. Witness is good for recovering Saheeli from discard, but in discard-heavy matchups I'd prefer to focus on value and proactive beats over the combo anyways. She's not bad, she adds some useful lines to the deck, and she can win games with Saheeli by recyling Paths and Unified Wills over successive turns. I wouldn't presume to argue that cutting her is objectively "correct", but I personally haven't missed her that much.
Do I get flooded? Yes, it happens sometimes... maybe one game a night. But I think that between (4x) Evos to upgrade Dorks, Oath’s selection, Saheeli's +1 for filtering, and Horizon Canopy it’s more manageable than a lot of ramp decks. For me the bigger concern is losing games against fast decks when I have to mull away hands that lack acceleration, so most of my games are effectively over by the time I get to top-deck and worry about drawing air anyways. This may be different for your meta. Obviously against grindy decks I make sure to board out at least 4x Dorks, a few Evos, and bring in relevant threats / interaction and it hasn't been a problem for me so far (see my recent match report vs Death's Shadow).
I prefer 4 cobra/4rallier to 2 arbor elf for sure. Much more explosive especially vs Tron allowing you to dump a ton of power out t2 and just race tron.
If the teeg is purely to combat storm, I find eidolon does it better as it can't be bolted and is much harder to grapeshot away. Most decks such as Tron, Scapeshift, and Coco decks have plenty of my ways to remove teeg.
Not a fan of riverwise auger in testing... The card has just never really done anything for me. Easy swap for magus if you think it's relevent in your meta.
I prefer a sun Titan to the reveillark as it can win games on the spot if you have access to a couple saheeli between the gy and battlefield and also provides just as much value vs midrange.
Without ee you are super weak vs go wide aggro like humans, elves, merfolk, affinity... consider a couple ghostly prison to fill the gap. I also find linvala great vs affinity and elves.
Only 1 way to remove artifacts and enchantments seems pretty loose, try and find room for another pridemage, or an angel of sanctions, or acidic slime.
Ide much rather see 4 voice and 2 oracle. Voice has a huge hedge vs midrange, control, and burn where oracle is only possibly better vs combo.
As Shelldell already mentioned, I found it difficult to dump out the hand on t2 or t3 as it required a near-perfect draw. I used to run 4/4/4 but still didn't feel smooth enough. I found I was winning more regularly by having a t1 dork to set up a 3 mana play on t2 than having the nut land+dork+cobra+rallier draw.
Teeg is probably worse than Eidolon against Storm but has been performing well as a roadblock to other decks such as Control and Tron/ETron. Storm typically doesn't run bolt in the main and they can often combo faster than us, so I actually found that it could stall them long enough for us to race. I'm actually a bit negative on Eidolon recently as we are so sorcery-speed focused that it hurts us nearly as bad (casting only Oath on our turn is depressing). Of course, it's still our best out against Storm so I'm obligated to have a copy in the board.
Augur has impressed me enough to be a viable 4-drop option (I would still most likely run Avalanche Riders if I could find one locally). In situations with weak hands and/or boardstates, the brainstorm effect has been very relevant, and can set up well with any of Oath, Coiling Oracle, Saheeli (and tons of shuffle effects). Don't think it's for everyone's style of play but I liked it enough to keep it around.
Sun Titan has been floating in my periphery for a while...I started on 2 copies, then 1 and currently none. It felt terrible to have early on and was difficult to evo into. The double Saheeli combo is very niche, but I agree that Titan is great against midrange. Sadly, in my meta midrange has fallen off in favor of stuff like Burn, Tron, Storm, Control. That said it's possible Reveillark isn't as good as typical choice (Sigarda) and open for a different card.
I like your Linvala suggestion a lot, she may make it in SB after all as Walking Ballista is a HUGE pain for us to deal with. Not as big a fan of Ghostly Prison however, or cards that can't easily be found with Oath/Evolution in general. In the end I may have to bite the bullet for Explosives (or pray for reprint in Masters 25).
4/2 Voice/Oracle is probably the correct config. I think I have an addiction to card velocity (see: Riverwise Augur).
Everybody seems to be running witness. Do you usually go get it with evolution? I've cut mine from the decklist since I almost never want to draw it and never want to go get it with evo/chord. never missed it.
For the people who have been running more mana dorks: dont you get flooded at some point? Do you get the feeling that there is too much air in the deck? Or does the explosive starts that they provide compensate that?
Stony Silence on the draw can range from unplayable to very good (they keep a egg-filled hand with no turn 3 tron). I believe the plan vs tron is to go full combo and trim the big things from this deck. Land destruction into combo usually does the trick. Gaddock teeg is very good vs them also.
Clique seems interesting. UU is certainly tough. I can see it being decent vs removal/combo decks/tron.
My List for reference. The maindeck baloth is a nudge to burn. I hate losing to it but it could be anything (another guardian, sigarda, maindeck riders)
As others have mentioned Ewit is just a solid recursion piece. I'm actually on the bubble about cutting it as it's nowhere near as good as it is in Chord, and I don't run Path main which also diminishes its uses. I do think it's an actual engine piece if you are running Chord however.
The deck is a little more prone to flood out with 6 dorks but honestly in the situations where you have no action, a dork is just about the same value as a 2/1 cobra and marginally worse than a 3/2 rallier.
For your list, I would highly recommend at least a second copy of Guardian. When I first ran the 1-Guardian lists, Path was absolutely killer and shuts down the whole combo by itself.
How has maindeck Baloth been outside of the Burn matchup? I can't imagine I'd be totally happy drawing or evo-ing it outside of Burn. Perhaps you want to look at Courser of Kruphix? It is great against burn and offers solid uses otherwise (namely hitting lands).
Really appreciate the answers @Brulander.
Regarding finks/baloth: baloth lets you evo for titan. In my list I only have 2 4-drops which is why I chose baloth over finks.
Teeg is indeed a no-go with chord. But chord has been good for me nonetheless. Will keep running it. If you had to swap the chords you dont like from my list, what would you put? ewit and another hate card? ewit and another guardian?
Most decks don't run that many 4-drops, which is partially why I'm hesitant to play Sun Titan in the first place as you do often are looking to hardcast it. I think if you're cutting Chords you probably don't need Ewit as much (and you also don't run Path main anyway). First order of business is to add at least another Guardian, IMO. I also favor 22 lands as 21 felt super sketchy to me, especially when I was on only 4 dorks.
Oath of nissa wasn't something I considered and I guess I'll try that out - if I can find the space! What I've been playing has proved reasonably consistent though, I've run into almost no trouble casting Saheeli and a turn 3 combo turns up in something like almost half my games, and the creature beat down plan B is solid, so I'm certainly pleased. Keen to hear what others think of my list though!
IMO Oath is one of our best cards bar none and any less than 4 is questionable. Because of that it feels like you're more midrange focused than combo.
I talked about it earlier but I found maindeck Trackers fairly poor as they didn't interact well with the combo half of the gameplan. Similar situation with Finks, they felt pretty low impact except for the Burn matchup and the combo with evo is neat, but overall wasn't worth it in the shell. As you are running so many Paths I think an Ewit would be worth it. I would also much rather have P&K or Riders over Huntmaster. How has Wingmate Roc been? It's also been on my list of things to try but have not gotten around to it.
I think we can all agree that one of the big remaining challenges with the deck is consistency -- sometimes you get Felidar out and despite flickering Oath (even multiple times) Saheeli is nowhere to be seen. Last summer a few users proposed using Glittering Wish to effectively run 7x virtual copies of Saheeli in the main. Today I decided to explore that avenue again myself. At first I dismissed it as too cute, or too slow... Now I'm not so sure. Maybe I'm just drinking the spicy koolaid, but I think it actually has a lot of potential. Here's where I'm at right now:
11 routes to Felidar Guardian: - 4x Guardian main
- 3x Eldritch Evolution -> Felidar Guardian
- 4x Glittering Wish -> SB Bring to Light -> Felidar Guardian
In my goldfishing so far the deck can assemble the combo by T4 significantly more reliably than traditional builds, and it can also recover from interrupted combo attempts with fresh pieces faster as well.
Glittering Wish also lets us tutor up utility spells and haymakers from the SB (even game 1) without them taking up space in the main or running the risk of drawing dead cards -- no more topdeck’d Gaddock vs Affinity, Kambal vs Elves, or Kitchen Finks vs Storm. As a bonus Wish dodges search hate like Grafdigger’s Cage.
The build as a whole is a bit more all-in on the combo but fortunately Glittering Wish -> Abrupt Decay takes care of the vast majority of permanents that stop you from comboing.
@Mariospas: OK let's unpack that scenario some more. First time you play Oath there's a 23% chance of finding a Saheeli in the top 3. When you flicker Oath you increase to a cumulative 41% chance of finding her. Since you already have Felidar, there's a 18% chance of finding another Felidar for an additional 15% success rate flicker attempt (we will combine the probabilities of this routes working out to 4%). Overall there's a ~45% chance that this route will find you Saheeli. It is worth noting that if you crack a fetch or otherwise shuffle your library between Oaths (which is pretty common for us) you lower your chances a few percent, and also that if you cast a second Felidar into Oath into Saheeli that this sequence is less efficient than Wishing for Saheeli, so at a certain point the speed & clunk argument becomes moot.
Are we a half-turn too slow with Wish? I've thought about that too and it's definitely possible. Against Storm and Vizier combo you need removal T2 and/or to combo out on the play T3. Running only 2x Paths, 3x Saheeli, and Glittering Wish probably makes this less likely game 1, although I've run into some lines with Lotus Cobra where I can still play Wish and combo out Turn 3. Depending on the probability of those lines (still need to assess) it may be correct to side the 4th Saheeli back in along with relevant hate pieces and interaction and then you're back to a normal deck games 2 & 3. We're certainly not favored for game 1 in these types of matchups, though, so I'm not sure how big of a problem that is.
On the other hand, the higher consistency of not only comboing out T4 but having backup pieces to spare really can't be overstated. The lines are a little too complex for my simple stat calculations so I can't offer an exact probability comparison but just give it a try. Against a lot of decks I suspect that a reliable T4 combo backed up by a second attempt T5-T6 will get you there. And in the other aggro matches where the combo is looking a little too slow having a tutorable Fiery Justice / Supreme Verdict / Fracturing Gust etc. might make up for it. I share your concern for speed and I'll keep an eye on it, but so far in theory and goldfishing it looks like it could be alright.
Yes, Oath's success rate at finding Saheeli is a little lower when you run 3 copies of her but it still works and is essential for smoothing your curve, raising consistency, and just generally turning Felidar Guardian into something that starts to resemble a reasonable card. Some of the early Wish builds tried to just swap Wish over Oath and it was a mistake.
Regarding Davius's question about focusing on combo and this deck's relative merit in the meta -- even in this build our Value Plan B is way better than Vizier's against decks like Death's Shadow, hands down. And you can still apply pressure with Cobra, Rallier, Voice. If you want you could omit Lancers and put a P&K, Wilt-Leaf Liege, or some other beater in as an Evo target. And lastly it's important to view Wish as more than extra combo pieces since the utility and hoser functions that it can serve can also support your plan B.
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@Davius: I agree completely and I'm glad I get to talk to someone with Wish experience before making all of those mistakes myself. My last thought before heading to bed last night was "I probably should carve out some more SB space for traditional interaction" and I was thinking about the relative speed and practicality of some of those targets. I agree on all of your suggestions, although I may try to be cute and keep the black at least for some initial testing since Kambal and Abrupt Decay seem really good in theory. Perhaps Rhino will come back into the main. 3 copies of Wish may be correct as well, but I'd want to start at 4 if only to get a better feel for it faster.
Another two questions, because I'm deep in the think-tank on whether Wish is actually viable:
a) why not run 4 Evos, an "evoable saheeli" (Lancers or Kiki) + 4 Oracles (or Visionaries to work around conflicting color difficulties) + 2-3 Walls to reach a (veeery roughly calculated, but I think I did the correct approximations) 80% combo chance on turn 4? I realize this needs more slots than wish, but shouldn't consistency make up for it?
b) which specific matchups do you hope to improve? (because I want to start testing from there)
A) There have been a few successful builds that invested heavily on cantrip creatures. I don't think this strategy is "wrong" but I prefer cantrip creatures in moderation. They grease the engine and draw you into the combo eventually but otherwise do very little to threaten the opponent's life total or disrupt their strategy. The thing I like about Wish compared to cantrip creatures is that it's not just adding extra combo lines or dumb bodies, it's also interaction if you need it.
B) Honestly I don't have specific matchups in mind yet. This is a pretty drastic change attempting to address a systemic consistency issue that plagues all matchups to varying degrees. I'm really going to have to start testing all of my common matchups from scratch, rebuild my sideboarding strategy, and get used to all of the new lines that Wish introduces. I realize that's a big investment just to test a side brew. If you're looking for a place to start I'd just begin with a survey of relevant Tier 1 decks or whatever you face the most.
With that said if you're going to try running Wish I think you should go all the way with the playset to start and build a portion of your SB around it. Maaaaybe 3 copies as davius mentioned. At 2 copies you're just barely starting to get returns on consistency after you've lost some consistency by cutting to 3x Saheeli in the Main. If you're not comfortable going all in it's totally cool and I'll try to share some data and impressions as soon as I can.
Wish obviously improves the matchups where sideboard cards are trump, like Storm, Lantern, Affinity. Getting access to the perfect card for the problem at hand without having to dilute maindeck is great there.
The Glittering Wish approach doesn't appeal to me. How are people finding it? It seems like it would make a durdly/slow deck even slower?
This is a bit nuts, but I think it important to question core cards. Has anyone experimented with removing Oaths of Nissa, and relying on the 1x Thalia's Lancers? This is particularly applicable to the attempts at including Kiki/Resto angels with lots of ETBs.
Disadvantages:
Mana base is rougher/harder to cast Saheeli specifcally.
Harder to dig for particular cards (particularly Saheeli).
Comboing will be more rare.
Likely need to dedicate more slots to lands/dorks.
Advantages:
The deck can lean more towards generating blink/copy value rather than comboing.
More slots for impactful cards/silver bullets.
More slots for chords/evolutions, allowing more consistency (tutoring rather than digging).
No tempo loss playing Oath of Nissa (in an already slow deck).
What appeals to me about Saheeli in non-combo situations is the token value she generates. I wonder if the deck needs to emphasise that aspect more, and treat her as a value generator that threatens the combo.
Yes, playing Oath costs tempo. However, missing early land drops or flooding will cost you quite a bit of tempo, so I think of it like paying insurance.
IMO speed can win games, but consistency wins tournaments. I messed around with a Kiki Resto list recently without Oath and it wasn’t until it was gone that I realized how much it greases the engine. For whatever it’s worth Hoogland seemed to like Oath so much he ran it in a Kiki build without Felidars or anything else to blink it. If you build your deck around it I feel it’s one of the more powerful cantrips in Modern.
Oath also makes Felidar a more playable card, insulates your combo against Blood Moon, and digs for both combo pieces and silver bullets. Running more direct tutors like Lancers or Chord might give you better inevitability by the late game, but it will add a lot more variance to your early and middle game. That tradeoff is probably a matter of preference, so let us know how it goes!
Well put, daviusminimus. The difficulty of maintaining a role while navigating random and occasionally conflicting topdecks is really at the core of the deck's struggle for consistent performance.
Updates on Glittering Copycat! I took a bunch of daviusminimus's feedback to heart.
After a couple games of drawing double Wishes I cut that down to 3x and I worked the 3rd Cobra back in since Wish is mana hungry.
I cut Lancers since there weren't enough 3-CMC creatures to Evo to it reliably and since it was still just a teeny bit too slow anyways.
I also encountered several instances of having a 2-CMC creature and Evo but no good flicker target or other way to find Saheeli. In this scenario I'd usually Evo for Rhino and focus on beats and since davius pointed out that Rhino is a slightly cumbersome Wish target I just moved it back to the main.
I still liked having Pridemage over Wall of Omens in the main since Wish -> Decay isn't always fast enough (Vial) or castable (under Blood Moon without dork).
Most of the decks that can out-pace Wish's extra half-turn are vulnerable to Path, so I got the 3rd Path back in the main.
Lastly I cut down a bunch of Wish targets from the SB to open up space for traditional good cards.
The resulting build is a bit less all-in but still gets some nice benefits to flexibility and consistency.
Figuring out when to keep multicolored creatures in the board for Wish or side them in for Evo is a bit tricky. My initial sideboarding plan is here.
I got to play a few practice rounds against Affinity and Jeskai. Wish -> Fracturing Gust won me both a pre-board and post-board game vs Affinity, and Kataki won another. Against Jeskai I misplayed by Wishing for Kambal when I should've grabbed Sigarda, which cost me the game. In game 2 due to the likelihood of the opponent disrupting the combo, our need for aggressive beats, and the matchup overall requiring a high density of quality cards rather than a good fetchable hoser I boarded out the 3x Wishes along with 4x Dorks, 3x Evo, and 1x Path in order to bring in essentially all of my board except Kataki, Fiery Justice, Gearhulk, and Gust. This approach felt pretty solid, except that my opponent had an incredible hand and drew into 3x Spell Queller, 4x Path, and Snap-Path over the course of the game. Not much any build could do against that so I'll get some more matches in before drawing conclusions vs Jeskai.
Overall I like the build enough so far that I've ordered some paper copies of Wish to try playing it at my shop next Friday.
Shelldell, ahhh, this makes sense. All that acceleration/fixing makes glittering Wish hurt a lot less.
I wonder if you should be capitalising on non-creatures a bit more with it? Particularly with a board wipe and a slaughter games, perhaps? And a lot of the 1x cards don't seem like you'll necessarily come across them much (blue counters, Courser of Kruphix you don't tutor for, Tireless Tracker, Kambal (does he do anything Sigarda doesn't? Allows you to evolution a bird into him?). Is fiery justice impactful enough that it's worth the five mana? Also Path to Exile is a bit of a non-bo with the oaths, how have you found running 0?
Oh, any thoughts on staticaster (given the prevalence of Mardu atm)?
Sorry for all the questions!
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Taxing attacks is good against some aggressive cards (Signal Pest, Steel Overseer, Ezuri with finite mana, Mutavault, Blinkmoth Nexus, Lingering Souls, Reckless Bushwhacker, Bloodghast, Flameblade Adept, as well as Kiki combo, Empty the Warrens, Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach), but not against all of them (Aether Vial, Elvish Archdruid, Champion of the Parish, Cranial Plating, Bogles, Infect, Geist of Saint Traft).
This approach actually combines well with instant speed removal or chump blocking (P&K, Voice, Finks, Resto Angel) since both things punish opponents for attacking with only 1-2 creatures. Reflector Mage also seems potent in this context: Replaying a creature costs the opponent even more of his mana. Avalanche Riders works with that plan too by restricting mana and chump blocking.
Do you feel the extra black or red cards hurts your burn matchup?
I've been leaning towards bant only because I think unfortunately after voice and cobra that Coiling Oracle is the best two drop. I'm still looking for a better two drop as the slot is crucial, my dorks often get removed.
And because I've encounter a lot of burn in my area, fetching forests and plains all day has been great.
Oh and 4 hierachs over perform, as they do in most decks that can use them.
@maniospas Thanks for the analysis really helpful. I've taken out a plains for township and it has been great for me. (Because I want as many t1 forest-> dorks as possible) Overall I am having a blast with the deck.
Rd 1: Mardu Pyromancer
He didnt know what I was on and was running incredibly aggressive choosing to fire off faithless looting, into pyromancer, into lingering souls. I had natural T4 combo but just waited until T5 when he chose to tap out to finish him off. Easy win, didnt see discard.
Gm 2: Brought in 2 trackers and a staticaster for 2 felidar and a bird. He started with inquisition taking finks, I believe I had 3 lands, omens, finks,
felidar, maybe oath? He probably should have just taken the oath. I ended up finding staticaster off oath and riding that for a few turns until i just rallier valued him away with voices and ralliers off the top. Did play a tracker which ate removal right away as well.
Rd 2: Mono Red Prison
I knew this dude and knows he always plays bloodmoon so sorry to say I fetched into basics and valued my birds and cobras on opening hands. G1 went easy,
I combod him out on t4.
G 2: Brought in rec sage and acidic slime for a couple wall of omens. He played T2 torpor orb T3 Drops his hand full of rituals into bridge and I scoop.
G 3: I realize im basically racing bridge and just go all out aggro with 2 cobras, 2 voices, and 2 saheelis just copying voices for more damage. He played torpor orb again for reference.
Rd 3: Merfolk: G1 I just get overrun while she had a spreading seas on me... Couldnt stick a Saheeli or generate a favorable boardstate.
G2: Brought in Gearhulk, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Rec sage for 2 walls, thragtusk, and ewit. Ghostly Prison stalls a large boardstate and allows me to dig for combo to win.
G3: This was a long drawn out game when I played yet another ghostly prison then ripped a evolution staring down defeat on the next turn ussing it to evo finks into gearhulk which carried me to victory.
Rd 4: Elves: G1 I T3 combo.
G2: Brought in Gearhulk, 2 Ghostly Prison, Staticaster for titan, thragtusk, witness, finks. He had an insane hand and shaman hit me for 8 on t3, with 2 more shamans in hand i conceded with nothing but a wall on t2.
G3: He mulled to 4, I combod t4.
TOP 4:
Rematched Vs elves. G1 I mull an average 7 looking for a quick combo, find it and combo t4 on the play.
G2, I mull to 6 looking for the same thing, get punished with 0 lands, go to 5. Keep an average land land oath wall felidar hand. Die after 4-5 turns.
G3, I have land land wall evo evo and voice bird. He starts fast and I use the first evo grabbing staticaster, kill 1 dork but he starts the next turn pumping out 2 druids effectively eliminating staticaster. I Evo again for gearhulk to stabalize but he continues to topdeck coco and lead the stampede and just runs me over. GG
Thoughts: I need to suck it up and replace the prisons with EE, vs torpor orb, elves, and merfolk I would have rather had EE. With EE I dont think i need to replace rec sage or acidic slime with pridemage. I also want to make room for a single linvala, keeper in my SB due to elves and affinity at my LGS, not sure what to take out yet.
Outside of that, the deck felt pretty great and no one expected it which gave me some serious bonus points.
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Wall of Omens
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Eldritch Evolution
1 Sun Titan
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Flooded Strand
1 Breeding Pool
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Stony Silence
1 Acidic Slime
1 Mirran Crusader
I know we've talked about this a lot but did you miss not having any Paths in the 75? Seems like it would've been useful to snipe Young Pyromancer, Devoted Druid / Ezuri / Archdruid, and the Islandwalk Lords. Not sure what all win-cons Red Prison was playing so I can't comment on whether it would've been useful at all there, but overall it seems well-positioned.
How did you feel about 4x Rallier? I've found him to be just "OK" vs Elves and Merfolk. My local Skred player also runs 3-4x Relic of Progenitus so Rallier wasn't amazing there last time I played that matchup. Rallier's probably good against Mardu's discard and destruction-based removal, though?
So, the only time I really wanted a path was vs Elves. They were the only deck to fast for me on a couple of turns and a path would have slowed them down by killing off an archdruid or ezuri. Red Prison was running Hazoret, Chandra, Rabblemaster, and Koth... Once again, in a shell like this the name of the game is speed. vs a deck without interaction I find it much more valuable to mull down to 6 if I dont see a way to build a combo G1. G2, I look for a ghostly prison, evolution, or way to combo fast.
Rallier is amazing when you cant combo or you are vs something like mardu pyromancer. Not having path doesnt bother me when I just dump 3-4 creatures on t2-3 that he cant keep in the gy.... the synergy between cobra, voice, and rallier make them all an auto 4 of for me. If your not playing them as a 4 of you are just missing out on some absolutely broken sequencing and turning into a less good gw value town or less good counters company style combo deck.
Obviously, these are just my opinions and i'm sure with more games played they will change but this is one of the more consistent speedy combo decks in the format and I aim to play it that way. The most appealing thing about the deck to me is its ability to out value midrange strategies when the combo isnt realistic and the voice/rallier/cobra package is a big part of that.
Here is my list with small updates:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Eldritch Evolution
1 Sun Titan
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Flooded Strand
1 Breeding Pool
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Stony Silence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Arbor Elf
3x Coiling Oracle
3x Lotus Cobra
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Eternal Witness
3x Renegade Rallier
2x Felidar Guardian
1x Riverwise Augur
1x Reveillark
1x Thalia's Lancers
1x Thragtusk
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Eldritch Evolution
4x Saheeli Rai
Land (22)
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Path to Exile
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Unified Will
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Chameleon Collosus
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Couple notes:
* Arbor Elf are budget Hierarchs (but can sometimes tap for red)
* Teeg maindeck as a bullet to Storm
* Augur flex slot (would probably play Avalanche Riders if I can find one)
* Reveillark flex slot (debating over Sigarda, Heron's Grace)
Missing 2 cards in board, open to suggestions! I don't expect Affinity or Lantern which is why I've cut Stonies and Kataki. Are Stonies good enough against Tron that we want them anyway? (Most likely at least 1 G/x Tron and U Tron will be there)
They're out of my budget, but I will probably add 2x Engineered Explosives if I can borrow them for the event. Also debating more Paths and Magus of the Moon.
Has anyone tried Vendillion Clique? UU is tough but it could help clear the way to combo?
I prefer 4 cobra/4rallier to 2 arbor elf for sure. Much more explosive especially vs Tron allowing you to dump a ton of power out t2 and just race tron.
If the teeg is purely to combat storm, I find eidolon does it better as it can't be bolted and is much harder to grapeshot away. Most decks such as Tron, Scapeshift, and Coco decks have plenty of my ways to remove teeg.
Not a fan of riverwise auger in testing... The card has just never really done anything for me. Easy swap for magus if you think it's relevent in your meta.
I prefer a sun Titan to the reveillark as it can win games on the spot if you have access to a couple saheeli between the gy and battlefield and also provides just as much value vs midrange.
Without ee you are super weak vs go wide aggro like humans, elves, merfolk, affinity... consider a couple ghostly prison to fill the gap. I also find linvala great vs affinity and elves.
Only 1 way to remove artifacts and enchantments seems pretty loose, try and find room for another pridemage, or an angel of sanctions, or acidic slime.
Ide much rather see 4 voice and 2 oracle. Voice has a huge hedge vs midrange, control, and burn where oracle is only possibly better vs combo.
The 1 ewit is just redundancy, for instance if your out of lands and can't seem to draw one, ewit will do the trick. If opp killed your saheeli and you can't find one ewit works. If you have played 2 oath and 1 is in the bin ewit can certainly back and help you dig. Just a slow catch all answer that doesn't usually hurt.
I prefer finks to Baloth for md burn hate as it's harder to negate with Skullcrack.
This deck doesn't flood off dorks nearly as much as counters company or other similar decks because lotus Cobra is still a relevent bear sitting at 2/1. Not to mention oath is really very valuable in this regard. Additionally, buying back fetches with rallies thins your deck a bit faster than if you were playing 1 land per turn.
We almost never pass the turn with open Mana and don't really play many bullets. Chording during main phase is unappealing. I would never run chord in this shell. Plus teeg is a no-go with chord.
UU is horrible as we want GG and WW and only UR if we don't have an oath or reliable dorks which isn't often.
Well, if that actually happened like this all the time, it would really be great in the matchup (and every other one). But let's be honest, even with all 4-ofs of these cards, you don't always get these draws. While you're increasing your chances to explode onto the board quickly, you also fill your deck with more cards that neither actually win on the spot nor interact with decks like Storm, Affinity or Titanshift. You do, however, get punished even harder by Anger of the Gods and similar sweepers.
While on the surface, Lotus Cobra has a relevant 2/1 body, in practice having a few 2/1s isn't always such a great thing. Imagine facing a 1/3 Baral or a 2/3 Reflector Mage or a Young Pyromancer with some tokens.
While Cobra has an extremely high ceiling, there are also a lot of ways it can go wrong.
There's nothing to replace cobra with that is more relevant as a topdeck right now, unfortunately.
In this specific scenario I was comparing a 4th cobra and a 4th rallier to 2 mana dorks.... Which in no way shape or form makes it easier to win on the spot, interact with storm affinity or titanshift, or get less punished by anger or sweepers.
You have to look at it like this... The deck has 2 very valid paths to victory, combo and value. Rallier assists with both of these, and once again like everyone else is saying a 2/1 snake is better than a 0/1 exaulted human.
I think the best part about cobra is it plays well with oath of nissa, whether you are short a rallier, a fetch land, or the cobra on early turns you can find what you need and attempt to do some broken things on t3.
Most people are looking for consistency, in which case storm takes the cake for combo decks and counters company takes the cake for creature combo. We are just explosive with multiple angle of attack. Storm IMO is better at both of these things, but should probably get taken down a notch with a nerf. We are far more resilient and better at generating value when the combo isnt online than counters company while they offer more consistency.
I didnt even notice you on 1 guardian before, thats been by far the biggest trap in this deck if you ask me. You NEED at least 2, and i prefer more. I would make 1 chord into your second felidar and possibly even a third felidar. If not a third, ewit is a fine choice.
Would be interested in hearing your opinions on a second sun titan, you dont usually want to draw it, and certainly never want to see one in your opening 7.
I dont think anyone is right or wrong at this point as the deck is no where near polished, but I havnt seen a list in a while from you and would be curious to see where you are at since you have advocated against the cobra/rallier full package.
Eidolon of Rhetoric is certainly a stronger card vs Storm, but it's bad against so many decks, it doesn't synergize with Saheeli/Felidar, and it completely wrecks our sorcery-speed tempo plan to the point that it's not main-deckable at all. Gaddock at least fills in our weak 2-CMC curve slot and is decent against a wide variety of decks and problematic cards. He may not be a firm answer but he helps and is broad enough to be main-deckable.
I stopped running Witness a while ago. Unlike Kiki-Chord most of our MB spells don't go into the graveyard for re-use and we're generally focused on more of a proactive tempo plan than a midrange grind plan. She doesn't help when Felidar gets Path'd which is how my combo is most frequently interrupted, and if we need another Felidar we can Evo for one directly. Witness is good for recovering Saheeli from discard, but in discard-heavy matchups I'd prefer to focus on value and proactive beats over the combo anyways. She's not bad, she adds some useful lines to the deck, and she can win games with Saheeli by recyling Paths and Unified Wills over successive turns. I wouldn't presume to argue that cutting her is objectively "correct", but I personally haven't missed her that much.
Do I get flooded? Yes, it happens sometimes... maybe one game a night. But I think that between (4x) Evos to upgrade Dorks, Oath’s selection, Saheeli's +1 for filtering, and Horizon Canopy it’s more manageable than a lot of ramp decks. For me the bigger concern is losing games against fast decks when I have to mull away hands that lack acceleration, so most of my games are effectively over by the time I get to top-deck and worry about drawing air anyways. This may be different for your meta. Obviously against grindy decks I make sure to board out at least 4x Dorks, a few Evos, and bring in relevant threats / interaction and it hasn't been a problem for me so far (see my recent match report vs Death's Shadow).
As Shelldell already mentioned, I found it difficult to dump out the hand on t2 or t3 as it required a near-perfect draw. I used to run 4/4/4 but still didn't feel smooth enough. I found I was winning more regularly by having a t1 dork to set up a 3 mana play on t2 than having the nut land+dork+cobra+rallier draw.
Teeg is probably worse than Eidolon against Storm but has been performing well as a roadblock to other decks such as Control and Tron/ETron. Storm typically doesn't run bolt in the main and they can often combo faster than us, so I actually found that it could stall them long enough for us to race. I'm actually a bit negative on Eidolon recently as we are so sorcery-speed focused that it hurts us nearly as bad (casting only Oath on our turn is depressing). Of course, it's still our best out against Storm so I'm obligated to have a copy in the board.
Augur has impressed me enough to be a viable 4-drop option (I would still most likely run Avalanche Riders if I could find one locally). In situations with weak hands and/or boardstates, the brainstorm effect has been very relevant, and can set up well with any of Oath, Coiling Oracle, Saheeli (and tons of shuffle effects). Don't think it's for everyone's style of play but I liked it enough to keep it around.
Sun Titan has been floating in my periphery for a while...I started on 2 copies, then 1 and currently none. It felt terrible to have early on and was difficult to evo into. The double Saheeli combo is very niche, but I agree that Titan is great against midrange. Sadly, in my meta midrange has fallen off in favor of stuff like Burn, Tron, Storm, Control. That said it's possible Reveillark isn't as good as typical choice (Sigarda) and open for a different card.
I like your Linvala suggestion a lot, she may make it in SB after all as Walking Ballista is a HUGE pain for us to deal with. Not as big a fan of Ghostly Prison however, or cards that can't easily be found with Oath/Evolution in general. In the end I may have to bite the bullet for Explosives (or pray for reprint in Masters 25).
4/2 Voice/Oracle is probably the correct config. I think I have an addiction to card velocity (see: Riverwise Augur).
As others have mentioned Ewit is just a solid recursion piece. I'm actually on the bubble about cutting it as it's nowhere near as good as it is in Chord, and I don't run Path main which also diminishes its uses. I do think it's an actual engine piece if you are running Chord however.
The deck is a little more prone to flood out with 6 dorks but honestly in the situations where you have no action, a dork is just about the same value as a 2/1 cobra and marginally worse than a 3/2 rallier.
For your list, I would highly recommend at least a second copy of Guardian. When I first ran the 1-Guardian lists, Path was absolutely killer and shuts down the whole combo by itself.
How has maindeck Baloth been outside of the Burn matchup? I can't imagine I'd be totally happy drawing or evo-ing it outside of Burn. Perhaps you want to look at Courser of Kruphix? It is great against burn and offers solid uses otherwise (namely hitting lands).
How has maindeck Finks been for you? I used to run one but it felt mediocre outside of Burn. What do you think about Courser in the slot instead?
Most decks don't run that many 4-drops, which is partially why I'm hesitant to play Sun Titan in the first place as you do often are looking to hardcast it. I think if you're cutting Chords you probably don't need Ewit as much (and you also don't run Path main anyway). First order of business is to add at least another Guardian, IMO. I also favor 22 lands as 21 felt super sketchy to me, especially when I was on only 4 dorks.
IMO Oath is one of our best cards bar none and any less than 4 is questionable. Because of that it feels like you're more midrange focused than combo.
I talked about it earlier but I found maindeck Trackers fairly poor as they didn't interact well with the combo half of the gameplan. Similar situation with Finks, they felt pretty low impact except for the Burn matchup and the combo with evo is neat, but overall wasn't worth it in the shell. As you are running so many Paths I think an Ewit would be worth it. I would also much rather have P&K or Riders over Huntmaster. How has Wingmate Roc been? It's also been on my list of things to try but have not gotten around to it.
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
2x Lotus Cobra
2x Wall of Omens
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Renegade Rallier
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Thalia's Lancers
Spells (16)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Glittering Wish
3x Saheeli Rai
3x Eldritch Evolution
2x Path to Exile
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Path to Exile
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Countersquall
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Meddling Mage
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Fiery Justice
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Saheeli Rai
1x Siege Rhino
1x Bring to Light
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Fracturing Gust
11 routes to Saheeli:
- 3x Saheeli main
- 4x Glittering Wish -> SB Saheeli
- 1x Thalia's Lancers -> MB Saheeli
- 3x Eldritch Evolution -> Lancers -> MB Saheeli
11 routes to Felidar Guardian:
- 4x Guardian main
- 3x Eldritch Evolution -> Felidar Guardian
- 4x Glittering Wish -> SB Bring to Light -> Felidar Guardian
In my goldfishing so far the deck can assemble the combo by T4 significantly more reliably than traditional builds, and it can also recover from interrupted combo attempts with fresh pieces faster as well.
Glittering Wish also lets us tutor up utility spells and haymakers from the SB (even game 1) without them taking up space in the main or running the risk of drawing dead cards -- no more topdeck’d Gaddock vs Affinity, Kambal vs Elves, or Kitchen Finks vs Storm. As a bonus Wish dodges search hate like Grafdigger’s Cage.
The build as a whole is a bit more all-in on the combo but fortunately Glittering Wish -> Abrupt Decay takes care of the vast majority of permanents that stop you from comboing.
I'm still trying to work out the SB and its Wish targets. I've started assembling some possibilities in the "Maybe" section here. Any thoughts on an optimal SB "Wish list" for this build?
I'm going to try and get some proper testing in this weekend!
Are we a half-turn too slow with Wish? I've thought about that too and it's definitely possible. Against Storm and Vizier combo you need removal T2 and/or to combo out on the play T3. Running only 2x Paths, 3x Saheeli, and Glittering Wish probably makes this less likely game 1, although I've run into some lines with Lotus Cobra where I can still play Wish and combo out Turn 3. Depending on the probability of those lines (still need to assess) it may be correct to side the 4th Saheeli back in along with relevant hate pieces and interaction and then you're back to a normal deck games 2 & 3. We're certainly not favored for game 1 in these types of matchups, though, so I'm not sure how big of a problem that is.
On the other hand, the higher consistency of not only comboing out T4 but having backup pieces to spare really can't be overstated. The lines are a little too complex for my simple stat calculations so I can't offer an exact probability comparison but just give it a try. Against a lot of decks I suspect that a reliable T4 combo backed up by a second attempt T5-T6 will get you there. And in the other aggro matches where the combo is looking a little too slow having a tutorable Fiery Justice / Supreme Verdict / Fracturing Gust etc. might make up for it. I share your concern for speed and I'll keep an eye on it, but so far in theory and goldfishing it looks like it could be alright.
Yes, Oath's success rate at finding Saheeli is a little lower when you run 3 copies of her but it still works and is essential for smoothing your curve, raising consistency, and just generally turning Felidar Guardian into something that starts to resemble a reasonable card. Some of the early Wish builds tried to just swap Wish over Oath and it was a mistake.
Regarding Davius's question about focusing on combo and this deck's relative merit in the meta -- even in this build our Value Plan B is way better than Vizier's against decks like Death's Shadow, hands down. And you can still apply pressure with Cobra, Rallier, Voice. If you want you could omit Lancers and put a P&K, Wilt-Leaf Liege, or some other beater in as an Evo target. And lastly it's important to view Wish as more than extra combo pieces since the utility and hoser functions that it can serve can also support your plan B.
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@Davius: I agree completely and I'm glad I get to talk to someone with Wish experience before making all of those mistakes myself. My last thought before heading to bed last night was "I probably should carve out some more SB space for traditional interaction" and I was thinking about the relative speed and practicality of some of those targets. I agree on all of your suggestions, although I may try to be cute and keep the black at least for some initial testing since Kambal and Abrupt Decay seem really good in theory. Perhaps Rhino will come back into the main. 3 copies of Wish may be correct as well, but I'd want to start at 4 if only to get a better feel for it faster.
B) Honestly I don't have specific matchups in mind yet. This is a pretty drastic change attempting to address a systemic consistency issue that plagues all matchups to varying degrees. I'm really going to have to start testing all of my common matchups from scratch, rebuild my sideboarding strategy, and get used to all of the new lines that Wish introduces. I realize that's a big investment just to test a side brew. If you're looking for a place to start I'd just begin with a survey of relevant Tier 1 decks or whatever you face the most.
With that said if you're going to try running Wish I think you should go all the way with the playset to start and build a portion of your SB around it. Maaaaybe 3 copies as davius mentioned. At 2 copies you're just barely starting to get returns on consistency after you've lost some consistency by cutting to 3x Saheeli in the Main. If you're not comfortable going all in it's totally cool and I'll try to share some data and impressions as soon as I can.
This is a bit nuts, but I think it important to question core cards. Has anyone experimented with removing Oaths of Nissa, and relying on the 1x Thalia's Lancers? This is particularly applicable to the attempts at including Kiki/Resto angels with lots of ETBs.
Disadvantages:
- Mana base is rougher/harder to cast Saheeli specifcally.
- Harder to dig for particular cards (particularly Saheeli).
- Comboing will be more rare.
- Likely need to dedicate more slots to lands/dorks.
Advantages:- The deck can lean more towards generating blink/copy value rather than comboing.
- More slots for impactful cards/silver bullets.
- More slots for chords/evolutions, allowing more consistency (tutoring rather than digging).
- No tempo loss playing Oath of Nissa (in an already slow deck).
What appeals to me about Saheeli in non-combo situations is the token value she generates. I wonder if the deck needs to emphasise that aspect more, and treat her as a value generator that threatens the combo.Yes, playing Oath costs tempo. However, missing early land drops or flooding will cost you quite a bit of tempo, so I think of it like paying insurance.
IMO speed can win games, but consistency wins tournaments. I messed around with a Kiki Resto list recently without Oath and it wasn’t until it was gone that I realized how much it greases the engine. For whatever it’s worth Hoogland seemed to like Oath so much he ran it in a Kiki build without Felidars or anything else to blink it. If you build your deck around it I feel it’s one of the more powerful cantrips in Modern.
Oath also makes Felidar a more playable card, insulates your combo against Blood Moon, and digs for both combo pieces and silver bullets. Running more direct tutors like Lancers or Chord might give you better inevitability by the late game, but it will add a lot more variance to your early and middle game. That tradeoff is probably a matter of preference, so let us know how it goes!
I cut Lancers since there weren't enough 3-CMC creatures to Evo to it reliably and since it was still just a teeny bit too slow anyways.
I also encountered several instances of having a 2-CMC creature and Evo but no good flicker target or other way to find Saheeli. In this scenario I'd usually Evo for Rhino and focus on beats and since davius pointed out that Rhino is a slightly cumbersome Wish target I just moved it back to the main.
I still liked having Pridemage over Wall of Omens in the main since Wish -> Decay isn't always fast enough (Vial) or castable (under Blood Moon without dork).
Most of the decks that can out-pace Wish's extra half-turn are vulnerable to Path, so I got the 3rd Path back in the main.
Lastly I cut down a bunch of Wish targets from the SB to open up space for traditional good cards.
The resulting build is a bit less all-in but still gets some nice benefits to flexibility and consistency.
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Renegade Rallier
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Siege Rhino
Spells (16)
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Glittering Wish
3x Eldritch Evolution
3x Saheeli Rai
3x Path to Exile
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Spell Pierce
1x Unified Will
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Saheeli Rai
1x Fiery Justice
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Bring to Light
I got to play a few practice rounds against Affinity and Jeskai. Wish -> Fracturing Gust won me both a pre-board and post-board game vs Affinity, and Kataki won another. Against Jeskai I misplayed by Wishing for Kambal when I should've grabbed Sigarda, which cost me the game. In game 2 due to the likelihood of the opponent disrupting the combo, our need for aggressive beats, and the matchup overall requiring a high density of quality cards rather than a good fetchable hoser I boarded out the 3x Wishes along with 4x Dorks, 3x Evo, and 1x Path in order to bring in essentially all of my board except Kataki, Fiery Justice, Gearhulk, and Gust. This approach felt pretty solid, except that my opponent had an incredible hand and drew into 3x Spell Queller, 4x Path, and Snap-Path over the course of the game. Not much any build could do against that so I'll get some more matches in before drawing conclusions vs Jeskai.
Overall I like the build enough so far that I've ordered some paper copies of Wish to try playing it at my shop next Friday.
I wonder if you should be capitalising on non-creatures a bit more with it? Particularly with a board wipe and a slaughter games, perhaps? And a lot of the 1x cards don't seem like you'll necessarily come across them much (blue counters, Courser of Kruphix you don't tutor for, Tireless Tracker, Kambal (does he do anything Sigarda doesn't? Allows you to evolution a bird into him?). Is fiery justice impactful enough that it's worth the five mana? Also Path to Exile is a bit of a non-bo with the oaths, how have you found running 0?
Oh, any thoughts on staticaster (given the prevalence of Mardu atm)?
Sorry for all the questions!