On Tracker, he is often one of my prime Evo targets against grindy matchups. You can often Evo for him with a fetch in play, then play another fetch and set yourself up to just draw 3 cards even if they kill him right away and with Cobra in the deck you aren't as taxed to just taking a turn off cracking Clues. He has been exceptional for me in any matchup where I am not under immense pressure from the start (Burn, Affinity, fast Human draws ect) and even there is he a 3/2 that might draw a card later. I would always play one in the main and consider boarding into another.
I am still playing 4 Cobra, he may be less attractive if you run less Cobra.
21 lands, 2 of which are colorless is incredibly ambitious. I run 22 with no colorless and it's not even guaranteed to have perfect mana most games.
For mainboard, most people (myself included) are set on 1 Thragtusk as the value/lifegain beater. I like one Gaddock Teeg in main as it is a bullet against big mana, control, and storm (meta dependent). I also use Sigarda, Heron's Grace as an evasive beater. Other maindeck bullets I've seen include Avalanche Riders (this may be better than your Ghost Quarter plan), P&K, Courser (anti-burn), and Tracker (midrange).
Your sideboard looks pretty standard. I've seen inclusions like Engineered Explosives, Burrenton Forge-Tender (anti-burn and red sweepers), Stony Silence, Magus of the Moon, Chameleon Colossus (anti-DS), Glen Elendra Archmage (anti-control or noncreature decks), Obstinate Baloth (anti-burn), Keranos (anti-control).
My thoughts on the cards you listed:
Fiend Hunter: Not sure what matchups it might be for.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar: I can sorta see this against Tron.
Spellskite: Might be OK in a meta full of removal for your combo.
Goblin Rabblemaster: Not much synergy with the rest of the deck, if looking for midrange threat I would just go with Tracker.
Keranos: I tried it against Control but in the end I don't think it's good enough. Easily Pathed, hard to evo out (difficult to evo against Control in general)
Agree with above except keranos doesn't get pathed as you won't have devotion. Evolution is still bad vs counters so not a great plan to run tutor targets for that match unless they have application elsewhere as well.
Does saffi eriksdotter do anything for the deck? I can't remember her combo but I thought she did something with rallier?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@ daviusminimus: As for cards that solve your problematic matchups: Sigarda Herons Grace (Storm, Burn, Valakut) and Worship (Burn, Dredge, Affinity) would be my ideas.
Scrabbling Claws seems bad. Just too low impact for my taste.
Yeah I'm really struggling to get anything resembling consistent results with this deck. If I don't see a turn 1 mana dork I am regularly one turn too slow with establishing the combo - I feel like I lose regularly with the combo in my hand but no time to deploy it. In other cases I have the combo but am almost certain my opponent has path/push/bolt to disrupt it if I go for it and get stuck that way trying to be patient and find a window to jam it.
In other games I flood out with too many dorks and no payoffs, get stuck with evolution and only 1 drops to pod up, draw rallier with no fetches, draw all 3 of my 5 drops in the first 2 turns, draw felidar with a dork out and slime/thrag in hand having to do crap sequencing to max value, etc etc. I know some of this is just variance, but it feels like there are just so many ways that things go wrong and the deck has near-zero interaction. We are either comboing off or applying pressure - but while trying to be the beatdown with lotus cobra and voice of resurgence is better than doing it with wall of roots and wall of omens (kiki chord) its still a pretty anemic beatdown.
So for me I think I'm shelving this for the time being. I love that the deck gives me a chance to play a bunch of cards I acquired for Modern but have never used otherwise: rallier, oath, evolution, saheeli, felidar and to some extent cobra (i have another cobra BTL brew). But I mostly play interactive toolbox decks, and if I'm going for a non-interactive combo deck this one just seems slow and vulnerable
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Hmm...I've certainly had my fair share of bad beats but I actually think the deck is fairly consistent - not necessarily at having the combo t3 but at presenting the threat of the combo at least. Been 3-1ing paper events and 3-2 or better in MTGO leagues the last 3+ months on a regular basis with a fairly stock build (4 Dork, 4 Cobra, 4 Rallier).
I feel like Cobra is so essential to our broken draws that 4-of is a necessary evil even if it's not great in multiples, as it enables a ton of lines that would be otherwise impossible. If anything the shave may be on Rallier as the combo is much less reliant on it as the rest of the pieces (I could see cutting 1 or 2).
Has there been any testing with Nissa, Steward of Elements? I want to swap with a pair of Ralliers and see where it gets me. Part of the deck's weakness is the lack of CA and manipulation and she seems to fit both roles (non-bo with Rallier of course).
The other insane idea I've been bouncing around is shaving pieces for some number of Summoner's Pact, maybe even the full playset. If our primary game plan is to assemble a turbo-combo on t2 or t3, it would help us find the missing piece (either Cobra or Rallier) to complete it. Again, this is definitely just theorycrafting.
Nissa's probably not better than the usual suspects vs interactive decks -- Tireless Tracker, Courser of Kruphix, Kitchen Finks, Thragtusk, etc -- and doesn't synergize with the core especially well beyond being a hit off of Oath and using her +2 to help you find other combo pieces. But if you do want to try Nissa be sure to cap your curve at 4 CMC, minimize your non-creature spell count, and I'd mostly ignore her -0 as the odds of that hitting are lower than I'd like (<70%). Instead, I would just tick her up for filtering and as a distraction, and then use the -6 to close out games.
The Summoner's Pact still sounds too cute. Even Hoogland cut it from his all-in build. It might add a percent or two to the (low) chance of comboing out on T2 but it's a liability and doesn't tutor either of our actual combo pieces or many of our bullets for the rest of the game.
There's a limit to how "all-in" you can go. Even with out best efforts to combo out on T3 we will often be out-raced or have our combo route shut down before T3, especially on the draw against Storm (T2 Baral into T3 Gifts storm), Humans (T2 Meddling Mage on Saheeli), Affinity (T3 Inkmoth / Plating), and perhaps Burn (T1 Guide -> T2 Eidolon). Running Qasali Pridemage, Kambal, and a couple Paths in the main are my concessions to these matchups right now.
--------
In an effort to assess my boarding plans and get better at the matchups I jammed ~20 games vs Cheeri0s and Storm today. If it's useful to anyone here were my takeaways:
Having Kambal in the main with 6x 1-CMC dorks and 4x Evos helped significantly game 1 against both Cheeri0s and Storm. Post-board Thalia and Kambal remained relatively strong against Cheeri0s, but were less impressive against Storm, which is better at filtering its way to Lightning Bolt or Grapeshot. The other awkward thing I hadn't thought about was that Thalia's 2/1 first-strike body lines up poorly with Baral's 1/3 body, so she can't attack safely. The same is true for Lotus Cobra. Felidar doesn't attack well, and if they have mana open you don't want to attack with Eidolon since even just one point of damage opens him up for removal by Bolt. Closing out the game takes ages if you don't happen upon the combo. The result is that I had a lot of games where I set up a lock -- even a 2-3 piece lock with Eidolon, Thalia, Gaddock, etc -- but was only able to push 1-3 damage through per turn while only casting one spell per turn (Oath becomes rather sad under Eidolon) and so in perhaps half of these games Storm was able to undo the lock piece-by-piece until it could go off. Thalia's symmetry was problematic in maybe 1/4 of the games she was in vs Storm (ex: can't cast Saheeli on 3 lands with her in play), but her tax was obviously much more helpful than harmful overall.
Given her great performance vs Cheeri0s and OK performance against Storm I will probably replace the third Thalia in the side for something else. The next test will be to make sure that having Kambal in the main isn't too much of an opportunity cost in the rest of my matchups. Lancers didn't come up much but did tie up one game nicely, no firm thoughts on the card yet.
You're probably right on the Pacts being too all-in, although I think it wouldn't be bad against some of the matchups you mentioned where we do have to race (Storm and Affinity). Still just a thought experiment and likely just a bad idea
In my own testing I quite liked a Gaddock Teeg and Sigarda, Heron's Grace in the main as the bullets against Storm, but I'm also wary of adding the 5th color to my deck as you have. I haven't seen Cheerios in a long time so I'm not sure if having the Kambal is worth it. Lack of Cheerios in my meta also leads me to shy away from Thalia (also her nonbo with your noncreature pieces). Postboard they usually bring in the creature removal anyway...
If adding black, I would like to toy with the idea of Anafenza, the Foremost, as we are such a dog against Dredge and RB Hollow One has been surging in popularity recently (she's also just a great beater).
I’d just add that I think 7x 1-CMC Dorks is fine as long as you still have 8+ 2-CMC creatures in some combination of Voice, Cobra, Wall, Pridemage, Branchwalker, Strangleroot, Gaddock, etc. The lists I’ve tried that attempted to largely skip from 1 CMC Dork to 3-drops had poorer Evo -> Felidar lines and generally felt clunkier to me.
I think the problem I have is just archetypal. The decks interaction is through creatures that are easily killed, and sparse at that. As a combo deck it's garbage compared to storm or ad nauseum, as a mid-range deck it's atrocious because the only interaction is basically voice of resurgence so you can't actually stop unfair things from happening (ie thoughtseize) and you have almost no true CA because unless you get to combo felidar might as well be cloudshift.
We can't actually play a good mid-range game because pia and Kiran isn't path to exile and voice of resurgence isn't tasigur. The stars have to align for us to get there with voice tokens or four mana cloudshifts as opponent must play along - terminate voice so we can rallier it back or queller our rallier giving us a voice token or have no pressure on a saheeli etc.
The cards are synergistic enough but the overall strategy of slow vulnerable combo propped up by dorks and voice into a grizzly bear hurloon minotaur beatdown as plan b just doesn't feel powerful enough vs what people are doing in most games.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I agree with @BadMcFadden's argument, but that is why I actually think we shouldn't be playing the 50/50 game between combo and midrange, but tuning to favor one or the other based on meta.
My local meta (and from what I've played on MTGO) skews towards linear aggro and combo (and Tron variants), so I've been running my build to race the combo. Our grindy plan B basically can't match decks designed to actually force the midrange game anyway.
I've found much more success opting for a combo-focused build than to play a delicate balancing game between combo-grind. It's painfully obvious that hand disruption and spot removal becomes a weak point in a combo build, but to be honest we are dogs against matchups that play those type of interactions, even if we are more midrange focused! For this reason I choose to use glue cards like Coiling Oracle (Wall is fine but worse with Cobra) and Augur to provide card advantage and selection to supplement the combo.
Some more thoughts about potential sideboard cards; would be interested in the general opinion: Spell Queller - Creature-based interaction, but I'm not quite sure which matchups it should come in. I can only think of boarding in against Control, but it's pretty awkward with so much Bolt and Helix going around. Faerie Macabre - My friend was trying this out as disruption against graveyard shenanigans. Literally uncastable but also uncounterable. He mainly had it against Snap decks but it had some play against BR Hollow One, Dredge, and even delaying Tasigur/Angler. Some "gotcha" moments against Storm as well (exile Past in Flames if they don't cast it immediately after Gifts). Janky but I found it interesting.
@BadMcFadden: I hear you. The deck can do some undeniably powerful, synergy-driven things... just not quite consistently enough to get there without running a little hot. The core of Saheeli/Felidar/Evo/Oath also drives you towards a simpler creature-based proactive plan over a more spell-heavy instant speed interactive one like Kiki-Chord, which isn't to everyone's tastes.
However, I echo maniospas's comments that before you cash in the cards I would try something like one of Lejoon's recent lists which trades some of the explosiveness of the Hoogland approach for a more consistently smooth 6/2 Dork package, Wall and Courser for draw and filtering, and Paths in the main for interaction.
----------
With that out of the way I have a ~30 person MNM report:
Match 1: Burn (0-2) G1 I have to mull to a keepable 5 with Dork, Oath, Rallier, lands. He sticks T2 Eidolon. I Oath and reveal Siege Rhino... next turn he skull cracks Siege Rhino to seal the game.
G2 I keep a decent hand with Thalia and Rallier, maybe a dork. After his T1 Rift Bolt I play Thalia T2, licking my lips at the taxes that are about to come rolling in. On his T2 he plays Eidolon, which I'm able to remove a couple turns later with a lucky topdeck'd Rec Sage. He follows with a second Eidolon. At that point I decide to pay 4 to Evolve Thalia into Felidar and flicker Rec Sage. I'm able to Rallier Thalia back to the field the next turn but the damage from the double Eidolons has already taken a toll. I topdeck lands for several turns and he Boros Charms me dead. SB: -2 Saheeli, -1 Lancers // +2 Thalia GoT, +1 Reclamation Sage
Match 2: WB Eldrazi & Taxes (1-2) G1 I steal a win with a T4 combo
G2/G3 were pretty similar. G2 I did some cute opener things with Hierarch > T2 Cobra > Rallier > Oath > Engineered Explosives on 2. I set it to 2 thinking that I'd want to neutralize their namesake hatebears. Mistake. Opponent played Mirran Crusader followed by Flickerwisp. I detonated Explosives but he had another Thalia to replace it with (lol). Thalia's 2/1 first strike and Mirran Crusader's pro-green essentially invalidate Cobra and Rallier in combat. Eventually I got Rhino on the board but the opponent was able to attack with Crusader and then flicker it for psuedo vigilance. G3 was similar, except with the added salt of drawing 5-6 lands in a row. Lesson learned, hold the EE back until they commit to the board and then likely detonate at 3. SB: -3 Evolution, -1 Kambal, -1 Lancers // +2 Explosives, +1 Staticaster, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Gearhulk In hindsight even with the search hate I should've kept at least 2, maybe 3 Evos in since it's essential to both comboing out and getting Gearhulk into play, which felt like the only ways we're winning this matchup
Match 3: Bant Hatebears (2-0)
G1 We get into a board stall. I topdeck Rhino, then next turn I get to evolve Rallier into Lancers, play Saheeli the same turn, and copy Rhino to seal the game.
G2 I combo out on T4-5 SB: -1 Kambal // +1 Gearhulk
Match 4: Burn (2-0) G1 I combo out at 5 life after my opponent gets greedy and decides to send his Swiftspear damage at me instead of finishing off Saheeli.
G2 He keeps my board clear for several turns. Eventually I'm able to stick Cobra > fetch crack > Evolve cobra into Rhino. Next turn I Felidar flicker Rhino but get Skull Cracked. I swing with Rhino to put my opponent at 1 with myself at 3. Stuck on 3 mana, I evolve Rhino into Kambal and my opponent scoops. SB: -2 Saheeli, -1 Lancers // +2 Thalia GoT, +1 Reclamation Sage In the future I might leave the third Saheeli and but cut the third Rallier
Overall 2-2
Thoughts & takeaways:
-The 6/3 dork config felt great and I recommend it for anyone in a meta with lots of fast aggro & combo decks.
-The third Rallier is not bad but feels flexible, I'm thinking more about what I want here... I might proxy up Jadelight Ranger for testing. Other options are Courser, Splicer, and KotR. I'd prefer to keep it GW to spare my manabase any more strain.
-Lancers broke through a board stall in a big splashy way. I can't tell yet if it was a little slow and win-more or simply win-enough. Definitely adds some good lines but is expensive and also must be supported with enough 3-CMC Evo fodder. Still assessing.
-Kambal was still a decent option against Burn, though worse than the Finks he replaced vs Hatebears. I did see at least one Storm player at the tables so for now I feel vindicated in running Kambal in the main but as a legendary below-curve creature he's going to have to put in some work to keep earning his spot.
-Mirran Crusader is tough. I'm open to tips in general vs WB Taxes if anyone has them. I probably just need to get some more practice against this deck.
A few weeks ago I did some test games against a friend with WB Eldrazi and completely demolished him, somewhere in the ballpark of 12-1 games (at least 8 of them sideboarded). I won lots of games with Blood Moon and the combo, however I also remember him taking a lot more mulligans than me. His list wasn't perfect, but the matchup felt really favored to me. Obviously your 5c list can't use Blood Moon, which is the easiest route to victory here.
In my experience, the way to beat Mirran Crusader is by having creatures that block it well: Reflector Mage, double Felidar Guardian, Blade Splicer, Lancers. You can also remove it with P&K, Glorybringer, Helix or Path. The card is annoying, but there are a decent number of ways to beat it. Just remember that it's often even more important to answer Eldrazi Displacer.
In my experience, the way to beat Mirran Crusader is by having creatures that block it well: Reflector Mage, double Felidar Guardian, Blade Splicer, Lancers. You can also remove it with P&K, Glorybringer, Helix or Path. The card is annoying, but there are a decent number of ways to beat it. Just remember that it's often even more important to answer Eldrazi Displacer.
Wouldn't Reflector Mage and one of the Felidar Guardians both trade with the Crusader in that example? While I wouldn't usually say that trading is blocking well I suppose if it's taking out a problematic creature then it's probably worth it. The rest of your suggestions on blockers and Displacer are good, cheers. While I think a few of my deckbuilding choices may have weakened this matchup a bit, I probably just need to jam more games.
----------------
When you evoed for Lancers, maybe Glorybringer would have been better? Could you keep track of that for next time? For me, the Dragon is usually the way I break boardstalls - bonus points that it kills Crucaders. But I don't have experience for Lancers and since they compete for the same spot we should compare them. I'll try to keep track too. Theoretically, usually we Evo into Lancers in dire situations and I'd rather remove the danger than hope my combo is not interacted with (dragons are more difficult to get interacted with by Bolt, Push, Decay).[
I think another Path or P&K should be fine against Crucader. I'd personally run 3/3 Evo/Path for 3 Guardians main, but it's more a matter of consistency vs interactivity, so I'm not sure. Agreed that on your build though Guardian appears abysmal and going down to 2 with 4 Evos should be better in my opinion.
I can try and keep track of Glorybringer vs Lancers if it'll help but both it and P&K aren't really feasible for me at the moment due to the RR cost with Rhino.
To elaborate a bit more on why I was interested in testing Lancers I like that it supports both the combo and value plans reasonably well game 1, which in theory sounds like exactly the kind of card we’re interested in as long as the body is relevant enough.
Finally, thoughts on running Rhinos alongside Ralliers? I admit I liked Strangleroots better in your Rhino builds, whereas accelerating seems unnecessary.
I'm not sure I understand the conflict between Rhino and Rallier. Do you mean as competing Evo targets off of Voice? Assuming I don't see Saheeli I'll usually Evolve for Rhino over Rallier for the extra sustain and since a 4/5 trample + direct damage can get damage through some more cluttered board states. Additionally Rhino is safer against Anger of the Gods (which I otherwise run fewer answers to in my 75) and is usually a much better flicker / clone target than Rallier in case I do draw into either combo piece. Also I try to run a lot of 2-CMC hatebears to bring in from the side, and with 4x Evo I'm regularly stocking the grave with 2-drops. So yes, sometimes I'll use Rallier for acceleration but if I have a relevant hatebear I'll usually try to hold the Rallier back and play it when I need to rez the hatebear (see my M1G2 against Burn above).
The rallier example above is indicative of the trouble I have. None of our cards are scary besides the combo and maybe voice vs interaction without removal. Dork into cobra rallier recur fetch is a common line - now what? You have five power that dies to a stiff breeze and five mana. You play felidar you flicker rallier for another fetch? Play saheeli and try to protect it with three chump blockers? Then you can Evo and combo except if they have any interaction the combo fizzles. Now you're four turns deep with five lands in a deck with few to no mana sinks - how does this turn into mid-range pressure? Swinging with rallier? Topdecking the single sun Titan?
I get the combo it's just slow and vulnerable. I don't get the backup plan because it gets utterly stonewalled by goyf tasigur tks etc so how are you outgrinding abzan Jund jeskai control gds etc? They have better bodies more interaction and more CA. Are you grinding the linear decks because I don't see beating burn infect storm etc by poking for five over four turns.
Anyways keep plugging away and I'll check in to see if there's a breakthrough now and then. I just can't see the path from here where the deck can combo, grind, race, and interact effectively based on the matchup. I had the same block w kiki chord where I'd draw voices and walls and get combod out or chords and dorks and get searing blazed off the face of the earth. Could very well just be playstyle and low tolerance for feeling helpless when I have an ostensibly good draw
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@BadMcFadden: Most of us have found that lists close to this one have a positive matchup against midrange decks. Running 4 Cobra / 4 Rallier / 4 Evo and 0 Paths weakens these matchups so I understand why you currently feel frustrated against them. As I said, I'd really recommend trying something more traditional and less polarized.
@maniospas: I see what you're saying but I don't think that particular sequencing line comes up so often or is so bad that I have a problem with it. I'd also rather not cut a 3-drop for a 2-drop while running Lancers as I want at least 4x 3-CMC creatures to be able to Evo into Lancers.
--------
EDIT: Continuing my assessment of Jadelight Ranger I think the closest point of comparison is Courser of Kruphix, as both are 1GG creatures with potentially relevant bodies that provide means of card selection.
Jadelight Ranger arguably digs better, immediately going through the top 2 cards and potentially setting you up to draw Saheeli that was 3 cards down next turn. This dig effect synergizes well with our core: each time you clone or flicker Jadelight you dig another 2 cards.
Courser is much better at general filtering and actually providing you with physical card advantage, but fetch-shuffling away cards you don't want is statistically a poorer way to find a specific card you want than (repeatedly) digging down linearly.
Jadelight's body usually a 3/2, sometimes a 4/3, and very rarely a meager 2/1. The 4/3 will trade up against TKS and some other 4-drops, but is also unfortunately still hit by Anger of the Gods and Bolt. Perhaps this is OK since it generates more value up front on ETB.
Courser's 2/4 body is very relevant against unevasive aggro lists. Because of it's 4 toughness it can stick to the board through Bolt and Anger, making it a better choice against Burn, Jeskai, Titanshift, Skred. It usually presents a slower clock than Jadelight.
Courser's lifegain gives it an additional edge against aggressive decks. However, I do think that playing with your top card flipped is a significant disadvantage for us. Having Saheeli sitting on top ensures that your opponent will pass the turn ready to interact if possible.
Overall I think Courser is probably the better card overall despite its poorer core synergy.
Because, I don't think I'm clear enough, I'll give an example:
T1 land -> dork
T2 fetch -> rallier (3 lands in play + dork)
T3 land -> rhino and there's an untapped land in play
The funny thing is, what if you don't actually have the third land in hand? Then the Rallier actually does something very useful by enabling you to cast that Rhino.
Or what if you are facing a deck where holding up an extra mana for Path is important? Even if you're just bluffing it, that's actually good.
So I can just as easily find examples where the two cards interact well
@BadMcFadden: I hear you. The deck can do some undeniably powerful, synergy-driven things... just not quite consistently enough to get there without running a little hot. The core of Saheeli/Felidar/Evo/Oath also drives you towards a simpler creature-based proactive plan over a more spell-heavy instant speed interactive one like Kiki-Chord, which isn't to everyone's tastes.
However, I echo maniospas's comments that before you cash in the cards I would try something like one of Lejoon's recent lists which trades some of the explosiveness of the Hoogland approach for a more consistently smooth 6/2 Dork package, Wall and Courser for draw and filtering, and Paths in the main for interaction.
----------
With that out of the way I have a ~30 person MNM report:
Match 1: Burn (0-2) G1 I have to mull to a keepable 5 with Dork, Oath, Rallier, lands. He sticks T2 Eidolon. I Oath and reveal Siege Rhino... next turn he skull cracks Siege Rhino to seal the game.
G2 I keep a decent hand with Thalia and Rallier, maybe a dork. After his T1 Rift Bolt I play Thalia T2, licking my lips at the taxes that are about to come rolling in. On his T2 he plays Eidolon, which I'm able to remove a couple turns later with a lucky topdeck'd Rec Sage. He follows with a second Eidolon. At that point I decide to pay 4 to Evolve Thalia into Felidar and flicker Rec Sage. I'm able to Rallier Thalia back to the field the next turn but the damage from the double Eidolons has already taken a toll. I topdeck lands for several turns and he Boros Charms me dead. SB: -2 Saheeli, -1 Lancers // +2 Thalia GoT, +1 Reclamation Sage
Match 2: WB Eldrazi & Taxes (1-2) G1 I steal a win with a T4 combo
G2/G3 were pretty similar. G2 I did some cute opener things with Hierarch > T2 Cobra > Rallier > Oath > Engineered Explosives on 2. I set it to 2 thinking that I'd want to neutralize their namesake hatebears. Mistake. Opponent played Mirran Crusader followed by Flickerwisp. I detonated Explosives but he had another Thalia to replace it with (lol). Thalia's 2/1 first strike and Mirran Crusader's pro-green essentially invalidate Cobra and Rallier in combat. Eventually I got Rhino on the board but the opponent was able to attack with Crusader and then flicker it for psuedo vigilance. G3 was similar, except with the added salt of drawing 5-6 lands in a row. Lesson learned, hold the EE back until they commit to the board and then likely detonate at 3. SB: -3 Evolution, -1 Kambal, -1 Lancers // +2 Explosives, +1 Staticaster, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Gearhulk In hindsight even with the search hate I should've kept at least 2, maybe 3 Evos in since it's essential to both comboing out and getting Gearhulk into play, which felt like the only ways we're winning this matchup
Match 3: Bant Hatebears (2-0)
G1 We get into a board stall. I topdeck Rhino, then next turn I get to evolve Rallier into Lancers, play Saheeli the same turn, and copy Rhino to seal the game.
G2 I combo out on T4-5 SB: -1 Kambal // +1 Gearhulk
Match 4: Burn (2-0) G1 I combo out at 5 life after my opponent gets greedy and decides to send his Swiftspear damage at me instead of finishing off Saheeli.
G2 He keeps my board clear for several turns. Eventually I'm able to stick Cobra > fetch crack > Evolve cobra into Rhino. Next turn I Felidar flicker Rhino but get Skull Cracked. I swing with Rhino to put my opponent at 1 with myself at 3. Stuck on 3 mana, I evolve Rhino into Kambal and my opponent scoops. SB: -2 Saheeli, -1 Lancers // +2 Thalia GoT, +1 Reclamation Sage In the future I might leave the third Saheeli and but cut the third Rallier
Overall 2-2
Thoughts & takeaways:
-The 6/3 dork config felt great and I recommend it for anyone in a meta with lots of fast aggro & combo decks.
-The third Rallier is not bad but feels flexible, I'm thinking more about what I want here... I might proxy up Jadelight Ranger for testing. Other options are Courser, Splicer, and KotR. I'd prefer to keep it GW to spare my manabase any more strain.
-Lancers broke through a board stall in a big splashy way. I can't tell yet if it was a little slow and win-more or simply win-enough. Definitely adds some good lines but is expensive and also must be supported with enough 3-CMC Evo fodder. Still assessing.
-Kambal was still a decent option against Burn, though worse than the Finks he replaced vs Hatebears. I did see at least one Storm player at the tables so for now I feel vindicated in running Kambal in the main but as a legendary below-curve creature he's going to have to put in some work to keep earning his spot.
-Mirran Crusader is tough. I'm open to tips in general vs WB Taxes if anyone has them. I probably just need to get some more practice against this deck.
First off, thank you for all the posts and SB guide. I'm really interested in trying to make something near this list start to come together for GP Toronto if I end up going.
3rd Rallier: Now I've yet to try a 4 Cobra/4 Rallier build, but in my experience with a 'normal' (less all-in) build even the second one felt like too much sometimes. Is there a Voice/Oath/Canopy to grab a high enough percentage of the time?
KotR: I tried 2 Knights for a while, and while I eventually wanted to move away from the Knight/GQ/Gavony package, I can say that Knight is a pretty nice threat that always makes an strong impact if not removed. It's good with the new higher fetch count, and its presence was particularly appreciated against E Tron.
Manabase: No Temple Garden? I keep a fair amount of 1-landers with some dorks/Oaths, but would feel a lot less comfortable doing so without a Garden to fetch.
Also, looking to ease some strain, is 2 each of U/R shocks really necessary with your build? I see this allows you to more reliably get these colours off the non-G fetches, but if that's the case why not just more G fetches? I guess it would enable you to roll up fetching your 1 W source along with an off colour at the same time? I'd love to delve deeper into this, and figure out details that I'm not picking up.
Kambal: I want to try out your splash build, and like the idea of Kambal at first blush. Against Storm, I like that it's a fragile hate piece (like Teeg, as opposed to Eidolon) while also speeding up our clock while they dig. How has it tested against Burn, does it complement the Rhinos nicely?
Some SB cards:
EE: Looking at the SB guide, I can't help but think of Fiery Justice instead, although the Humans MU might be too much reason. It also can feel bad to play FJ before maxing out on Paths.
I would also get the desire to lean away from Stony/Kataki, since I like the Affinity MU with enough Path/FJ and Rec Sage/Staticaster. Then there's Lantern to think about, which used to feel ~50/50 in my small sample size with Noble, Oath, Evo, Qasali/Sage, Tracker, although I haven't played against it now with Whir and Needle/Cage main. I guess it's now probably significantly worse.
Mindcensor: I tried it a while back, and felt it wasn't doing enough vs Valakut. But then I've tried everything to improve this MU beyond the point of just accepting an unfavoured race.
Thalia: I've been thinking about it, and looking at your guide I really want to try it out. Would you say it's definitely been helpful?
Vs WB Taxes (Eldrazi?), one way to attack it that I've liked is just more removal. Every additional Path/Helix/FJ helps, although FJ not with Mirran Crusader of course. Removal is also just always really good against Affinity, Humans, Coco, etc.
Thanks again for the SB guide, and cheers to everyone posting here too.
3rd Rallier: Now I've yet to try a 4 Cobra/4 Rallier build, but in my experience with a 'normal' (less all-in) build even the second one felt like too much sometimes. Is there a Voice/Oath/Canopy to grab a high enough percentage of the time?
I really like Rallier against decks that discard, counter, and bolt/push your early plays -- Jeskai, Lantern, 8-Rack, Burn and to some extent Grixis Shadow -- since a timely rez puts you back up on tempo. Against aggro decks he's slightly less useful but I do like that his ramp and 3-CMC body provide a nice Evo stepping stone into Cataclysmic Gearhulk. Finally, he's not terribly relevant against combo. I find that he performs best when you pair him with high impact 2-CMC hatebears / permanents. I think 2 copies is an ok place to start if he lines up with your expected meta for Toronto, otherwise shave back to 1.
KotR: I tried 2 Knights for a while, and while I eventually wanted to move away from the Knight/GQ/Gavony package, I can say that Knight is a pretty nice threat that always makes a strong impact if not removed. It's good with the new higher fetch count, and its presence was particularly appreciated against E Tron.
Sure, I'll mess around with KotR.
Manabase: No Temple Garden? I keep a fair amount of 1-landers with some dorks/Oaths, but would feel a lot less comfortable doing so without a Garden to fetch.
Also, looking to ease some strain, is 2 each of U/R shocks really necessary with your build? I see this allows you to more reliably get these colours off the non-G fetches, but if that's the case why not just more G fetches? I guess it would enable you to roll up fetching your 1 W source along with an off colour at the same time? I'd love to delve deeper into this, and figure out details that I'm not picking up.
My manabase is partly limited by what I had on hand and the fact that I started with a red-heavy list and preferred Khans fetches (Foothills over Rainforest) to save budget, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm running 3x non-green fetches because I wanted extra sources to grab basic plains to better insulate myself against Blood Moon, which I think is a good call even in a budgetless "perfect" land base. As a result I needed the dual shocks to keep my color coverage up on each fetch. There's probably a fetch config with Misty Rainforest that would let me shave one of the U or R shocks and still keep my color coverage good as you say. I cut the Temple Gardens because I was already at 5 shocks and wanted to work black in. I realized that I rarely fetched for Gardens, instead opting for basic Forest, basic Plains, and then splash shock. There are some very niche scenarios where missing Gardens makes it impossible to grab a second green or white source with a particular Fetch so for this reason I can't necessarily advocate it as being "correct" but in ~98% of my games I don't miss it and I haven't lost any games because of it yet.
Kambal: I want to try out your splash build, and like the idea of Kambal at first blush. Against Storm, I like that it's a fragile hate piece (like Teeg, as opposed to Eidolon) while also speeding up our clock while they dig. How has it tested against Burn, does it complement the Rhinos nicely?
Right, he's mostly here for Storm but gives some benefit to burn. I've only gotten Kambal into play against burn in one game so far this week. I think most of the time he's a removal magnet that reads "Pay 3, gain 5 life and opponent loses 2 life". The thing to keep in mind about the black splash against burn is that in order to have a net positive life gain from Kambal or Rhino you need to either find a chance to fetch for a tapped Overgrown Tomb, Evolve into them, or get lucky enough to have a Dork stick / rez a dork with Rallier. If you have to fetch-shock an untapped Tomb just to cast them you're merely breaking even on life. Further shoring up burn is another reason I was thinking of replacing the 3rd Rallier with Courser of Kruphix. If Burn is a high priority for you I think your best cards are Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk, and Finks. Rhino and Kambal (aided by Thalia) are decent generalist cards that help against Burn but don't provided quite as much concentrated lifegain.
EE: Looking at the SB guide, I can't help but think of Fiery Justice instead, although the Humans MU might be too much reason. It also can feel bad to play FJ before maxing out on Paths.
I've been on both sides of Fiery Justice. In the early to mid game it can be an amazing 3-for-1 but sometimes after a few pump effects their team gets husky enough to shrug off most of the damage, or you feel sad when its sorcery speed stops you from hitting something important. In this sense I like that EE ignores buffs and directly destroys some of the most dangerous Merfolk, Robots, and Humans on CMC 2 even if you topdeck it several turns in. EE's application to Lantern, Cheeri0s, and other random permanents is a nice bonus. With that said I think maxing out on Paths with a couple FJs is probably effective as well.
I would also get the desire to lean away from Stony/Kataki, since I like the Affinity MU with enough Path/FJ and Rec Sage/Staticaster. Then there's Lantern to think about, which used to feel ~50/50 in my small sample size with Noble, Oath, Evo, Qasali/Sage, Tracker, although I haven't played against it now with Whir and Needle/Cage main. I guess it's now probably significantly worse.
I also like Stony vs Tron, but you may be right here. My local Lantern player still seems to be on the whirless build so I can't offer much insight there.
Mindcensor: I tried it a while back, and felt it wasn't doing enough vs Valakut. But then I've tried everything to improve this MU beyond the point of just accepting an unfavoured race.
I just added Mindcensor recently and haven't gotten it in play enough to form an opinion. I think you are correct about Valakut. If you're expecting a lot of Titanshift I would make a point of finding room for 2x Unified Will in the side. I'm not running into that much Titanshift & Tron right now so I'm just on 1x Spell Pierce but for a GP I think running both Wills would be a good idea.
Thalia: I've been thinking about it, and looking at your guide I really want to try it out. Would you say it's definitely been helpful?
Overall I would say yes she's been helpful. She's not a hard-lock silver bullet against any particular deck and can occasionally trip us up a little bit, too, but she's helped me tempo my way to victory in a handful of matches so far where the combo was likely to be disrupted with spells and I needed to focus on beat-down, namely Jeskai. She does require you to restrain your spell count a bit and clashes with Path, which is part of the reason I cut that to 2x. Each match with her has been a bit of an experiment and while I'm pleased with the results so far I'd certainly appreciate a second opinion. Still looking to get more testing on how helpful she is vs Scapeshift. I think for a GP she could be a safe choice as a 1-of in the side if you don't have enough time to get a bunch of reps in with her.
Vs WB Taxes (Eldrazi?), one way to attack it that I've liked is just more removal. Every additional Path/Helix/FJ helps, although FJ not with Mirran Crusader of course. Removal is also just always really good against Affinity, Humans, Coco, etc.
Right... I certainly regretted shaving to 2x Paths here.^_^;
EDIT: Based upon the feedback I've gotten this is the list I'm planning on trying for Friday:
Hello I'm on a 4 cobra / 4 rallier bant list. I've had some success at FNM, but I'm wondering if I'll be able to squeeze a Gavony Township in place of a Plains or Forest, anyone know the math?
Match 1: 4c (Grixis + White) Death's Shadow G1 I curved Voice into Kambal. I wasn't sure what to expect out of him, but he ended up doing something like +6 -6 life swing and my opponent later told me that Kambal kept him off some of the lines he would've preferred -- guess he didn't have removal on hand. I blocked with Voice -> Rallier rez Voice while Kambal drained him for his scours and inquisitions. Eventually I got Courser on the board, putting me up to 24 life and a decent board. When he has 2 life he's forced to swing in with double 11/11 shadows. I block both. He Battle Rages one but my cushy life total leaves me with 2 life and I win on the crack back. G2 on the draw I keep a hand I shouldn't have gotten away with -- one land, oath, cobra, rallier, felidar, voice, and rhino -- and he inquisitions away the Cobra, not processing that I was on one land until he passed back to my turn. I draw into my 2nd & 3rd lands, curving Oath into Voice into Rallier into Rhino. Rhino gets pushed. I draw into a second Rhino, path his Shadow. I flicker the second Rhino to burn him out. SB -3 Birds, -1 Hierarch, -3 Evo // +1 Path, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Thalia GoT, +1 Explosives, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Kitchen Finks, +1 Tireless Tracker 2-0 games, 1-0 overall record
Match 2: GW Tron G1 I start with a hand that has Birds, Oath, and both combo pieces. I curve Birds into Saheeli on the draw. He hits Tron T3 but plays O-stone and a Relic with 2 mana open. I combo out T3. G2 I keep a hand with Oath, Cobra, Rallier, Stony, and Felidar. T3 I play cobra into Rallier into Stony but he cracks his map in response. He hits Tron T3 or T4 and I haven't drawn anything relevant off Oath. He plays Ugin to exile my board, followed by Karn next turn, then Wurmcoil. Scoop. G3 Back on the play with Birds, Cobra, Saheeli, Pridemage, and Voice. My opponent is one turn behind finding tron. I topdeck Gaddock T3, get him on the field, and T4 I draw Evo off the top and Evolve Voice into Felidar to combo out. SB -2 Path, -2 Voice, -1 Rallier, -1 Courser // +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Unified Will, +1 Stony Silence, +1 Thalia GoT, +1 Gaddock, +1 Selfless Spirit 2-1 games, 2-0 overall record
Match 3: UG Merfolk G1 I was on the defensive pretty much immediately but with Saheeli in hand I thought I could still maybe pull it off if I could Evo into Felidar. He's amassing a big board so I feel pressured to get Saheeli out, protected by Voice, and tick her up. He swings in with 4 fish, 3 on saheeli, and 1 at me, then vials in a lord to kill her. Next turn I try to get some sustain by playing Evo (voice -> rhino) around curse catcher but it gets hit by Spell Pierce to seal the game. G2 I mull to 6, lead with oath, then put Explosives down T2 on 2. This slows down his board development, but he still has a 1-CMC Speaker, 2-CMC Branchwalker, and 3-CMC creature chipping in. My T3 Saheeli is Negated. I have to detonate explosives and Path one of his fish to stay alive but I'm on the backfoot the whole time. I set up some blockers with Voice and Elementals but he sticks an Islandwalk lord and my breeding pool betrays me. SB -2 Voice, -1 Kambal, -1 Rallier, -1 Rhino, -1 Lancers // +1 Path, +2 Explosives, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Finks, +1 Gearhulk 0-2 games, 2-1 overall record
Match 4: Abzan Combo Elves G1 I curve into Saheeli and scry to leave Felidar on the top. My opponent spews forth Elves, plays Shaman of the Pack to take me to 9, and then sacs 5 Elves to flip Westvale Abbey and hit me for the remaining 9. Dirty, but sweet. G2 I keep a hand with Birds, Cobra, Rallier, Evo, and Felidar. He plays Phyrexian Revoker naming Saheeli. I path Revoker, and next turn Evolve Rallier into Gearhulk to take out a couple dorks and a Druid, leaving him with a second Devoted Druid. Next turn he Chords into Vizier, uses infinite mana to play Ezuri and pump the Druid for lethal. SB -1 Voice, -1 Pridemage, -1 Kambal, -1 Rallier, -1 Rhino, -1 Lancers // +1 Path, +2 Explosives, +1 Gaddock, +1 Finks,
+1 Gearhulk
I should’ve let him keep the revoker off Gearhulk and saved Path for Druid. 0-2 games, 2-2 overall record
Thoughts & takeaways:
Kambal was surprisingly solid against Shadow. Overall this matchup still feels pretty favorable outside of Temur Battle Rage hijinks.
Got a little lucky against Tron, but I'll take it. Swapped the Unified Will back in the SB at just the right time.
Despite the fact that Courser doesn't directly synergize with the deck's core, she put in work and it felt good to have her back.
Thalia's Lancers didn't come up, but continues to be OK but not terribly exciting in theory.
Games 3 & 4 were back-to-back 0-2 tribal-fueled blood baths. In retrospect I should've mulled down harder to dig for the combo here, I think I still need to develop a finer feel for what sorts of hands I can keep against aggro decks. In terms of removal choices Explosives seemed alright but it alone doesn't seem consistently strong enough to make a non-combo hand keepable. Obviously running the 4th Path in the 75 would be good if I can find room without overloading non-creature spells. I'm also thinking about other sweepers... Slaughter the Strong works well with Felidar / Birds but might give the opponent too much choice (such as allowing opponent to keep druid again), Settle the Wreckage is powerful but too gimmicky for repeated events at a shop, Kozilek's Revenge is interesting at instant speed though the symmetry hurts, could go back to 1x Fiery Justice, Supreme Verdict gets around Merfolk counterspells, Firespout could do some interesting asymmetric things vs Affinity... Worship ... a friend also suggested using Ensnaring Bridge since we can combo under it, which is interesting if we were able to dump our hand fast enough.
Match 1: 4c (Grixis + White) Death's Shadow G1 I curved Voice into Kambal. I wasn't sure what to expect out of him, but he ended up doing something like +6 -6 life swing and my opponent later told me that Kambal kept him off some of the lines he would've preferred -- guess he didn't have removal on hand. I blocked with Voice -> Rallier rez Voice while Kambal drained him for his scours and inquisitions. Eventually I got Courser on the board, putting me up to 24 life and a decent board. When he has 2 life he's forced to swing in with double 11/11 shadows. I block both. He Battle Rages one but my cushy life total leaves me with 2 life and I win on the crack back. G2 on the draw I keep a hand I shouldn't have gotten away with -- one land, oath, cobra, rallier, felidar, voice, and rhino -- and he inquisitions away the Cobra, not processing that I was on one land until he passed back to my turn. I draw into my 2nd & 3rd lands, curving Oath into Voice into Rallier into Rhino. Rhino gets pushed. I draw into a second Rhino, path his Shadow. I flicker the second Rhino to burn him out. SB -3 Birds, -1 Hierarch, -3 Evo // +1 Path, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Thalia GoT, +1 Explosives, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Kitchen Finks, +1 Tireless Tracker 2-0 games, 1-0 overall record
Match 2: GW Tron G1 I start with a hand that has Birds, Oath, and both combo pieces. I curve Birds into Saheeli on the draw. He hits Tron T3 but plays O-stone and a Relic with 2 mana open. I combo out T3. G2 I keep a hand with Oath, Cobra, Rallier, Stony, and Felidar. T3 I play cobra into Rallier into Stony but he cracks his map in response. He hits Tron T3 or T4 and I haven't drawn anything relevant off Oath. He plays Ugin to exile my board, followed by Karn next turn, then Wurmcoil. Scoop. G3 Back on the play with Birds, Cobra, Saheeli, Pridemage, and Voice. My opponent is one turn behind finding tron. I topdeck Gaddock T3, get him on the field, and T4 I draw Evo off the top and Evolve Voice into Felidar to combo out. SB -2 Path, -2 Voice, -1 Rallier, -1 Courser // +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Unified Will, +1 Stony Silence, +1 Thalia GoT, +1 Gaddock, +1 Selfless Spirit 2-1 games, 2-0 overall record
Match 3: UG Merfolk G1 I was on the defensive pretty much immediately but with Saheeli in hand I thought I could still maybe pull it off if I could Evo into Felidar. He's amassing a big board so I feel pressured to get Saheeli out, protected by Voice, and tick her up. He swings in with 4 fish, 3 on saheeli, and 1 at me, then vials in a lord to kill her. Next turn I try to get some sustain by playing Evo (voice -> rhino) around curse catcher but it gets hit by Spell Pierce to seal the game. G2 I mull to 6, lead with oath, then put Explosives down T2 on 2. This slows down his board development, but he still has a 1-CMC Speaker, 2-CMC Branchwalker, and 3-CMC creature chipping in. My T3 Saheeli is Negated. I have to detonate explosives and Path one of his fish to stay alive but I'm on the backfoot the whole time. I set up some blockers with Voice and Elementals but he sticks an Islandwalk lord and my breeding pool betrays me. SB -2 Voice, -1 Kambal, -1 Rallier, -1 Rhino, -1 Lancers // +1 Path, +2 Explosives, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Finks, +1 Gearhulk 0-2 games, 2-1 overall record
Match 4: Abzan Combo Elves G1 I curve into Saheeli and scry to leave Felidar on the top. My opponent spews forth Elves, plays Shaman of the Pack to take me to 9, and then sacs 5 Elves to flip Westvale Abbey and hit me for the remaining 9. Dirty, but sweet. G2 I keep a hand with Birds, Cobra, Rallier, Evo, and Felidar. He plays Phyrexian Revoker naming Saheeli. I path Revoker, and next turn Evolve Rallier into Gearhulk to take out a couple dorks and a Druid, leaving him with a second Devoted Druid. Next turn he Chords into Vizier, uses infinite mana to play Ezuri and pump the Druid for lethal. SB -1 Voice, -1 Pridemage, -1 Kambal, -1 Rallier, -1 Rhino, -1 Lancers // +1 Path, +2 Explosives, +1 Gaddock, +1 Finks,
+1 Gearhulk
I should’ve let him keep the revoker off Gearhulk and saved Path for Druid. 0-2 games, 2-2 overall record
Thoughts & takeaways:
Kambal was surprisingly solid against Shadow. Overall this matchup still feels pretty favorable outside of Temur Battle Rage hijinks.
Got a little lucky against Tron, but I'll take it. Swapped the Unified Will back in the SB at just the right time.
Despite the fact that Courser doesn't directly synergize with the deck's core, she put in work and it felt good to have her back.
Thalia's Lancers didn't come up, but continues to be OK but not terribly exciting in theory.
Games 3 & 4 were back-to-back 0-2 tribal-fueled blood baths. In retrospect I should've mulled down harder to dig for the combo here, I think I still need to develop a finer feel for what sorts of hands I can keep against aggro decks. In terms of removal choices Explosives seemed alright but it alone doesn't seem consistently strong enough to make a non-combo hand keepable. Obviously running the 4th Path in the 75 would be good if I can find room without overloading non-creature spells. I'm also thinking about other sweepers... Slaughter the Strong works well with Felidar / Birds but might give the opponent too much choice (such as allowing opponent to keep druid again), Settle the Wreckage is powerful but too gimmicky for repeated events at a shop, Kozilek's Revenge is interesting at instant speed though the symmetry hurts, could go back to 1x Fiery Justice, Supreme Verdict gets around Merfolk counterspells, Firespout could do some interesting asymmetric things vs Affinity... Worship ... a friend also suggested using Ensnaring Bridge since we can combo under it, which is interesting if we were able to dump our hand fast enough.
Something I find really good vs merfolk, elves, humans, and affinity is ghostly prison. All depends how many non creature spells you want... 1 of cataclysmic gearhulk in the side has been Paramount vs these decks and lantern.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'd thought about Ghostly Prison and it could be solid at times, but I can also imagine some problems:
Affinity -- quickly dumps their hand and is happy to pay 2 to attack with their massively Plated / Modular buffed attacker
Humans & Merfolk -- Vial in threats and then save their mana for paying the Prison tax. This does slow their tempo a bit, but is it enough?
Elves -- With infinite mana (or even just a lot of mana) or Shaman of the Pack the tax is irrelevant
Additionally Ghostly Prison doesn't stop them from freely attacking Saheeli, although with less pressure on our life total we could better hold her back to play along with / after Felidar.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'd thought about Ghostly Prison and it could be solid at times, but I can also imagine some problems:
Affinity -- quickly dumps their hand and is happy to pay 2 to attack with their massively Plated / Modular buffed attacker
Humans & Merfolk -- Vial in threats and then save their mana for paying the Prison tax. This does slow their tempo a bit, but is it enough?
Elves -- With infinite mana (or even just a lot of mana) or Shaman of the Pack the tax is irrelevant
Additionally Ghostly Prison doesn't stop them from freely attacking Saheeli, although with less pressure on our life total we could better hold her back to play along with / after Felidar.
How has it played out in your games?
I find what it does well is stall for combo which these decks have little interaction with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am still playing 4 Cobra, he may be less attractive if you run less Cobra.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
For mainboard, most people (myself included) are set on 1 Thragtusk as the value/lifegain beater. I like one Gaddock Teeg in main as it is a bullet against big mana, control, and storm (meta dependent). I also use Sigarda, Heron's Grace as an evasive beater. Other maindeck bullets I've seen include Avalanche Riders (this may be better than your Ghost Quarter plan), P&K, Courser (anti-burn), and Tracker (midrange).
Your sideboard looks pretty standard. I've seen inclusions like Engineered Explosives, Burrenton Forge-Tender (anti-burn and red sweepers), Stony Silence, Magus of the Moon, Chameleon Colossus (anti-DS), Glen Elendra Archmage (anti-control or noncreature decks), Obstinate Baloth (anti-burn), Keranos (anti-control).
My thoughts on the cards you listed:
Fiend Hunter: Not sure what matchups it might be for.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar: I can sorta see this against Tron.
Spellskite: Might be OK in a meta full of removal for your combo.
Goblin Rabblemaster: Not much synergy with the rest of the deck, if looking for midrange threat I would just go with Tracker.
Keranos: I tried it against Control but in the end I don't think it's good enough. Easily Pathed, hard to evo out (difficult to evo against Control in general)
Does saffi eriksdotter do anything for the deck? I can't remember her combo but I thought she did something with rallier?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Scrabbling Claws seems bad. Just too low impact for my taste.
In other games I flood out with too many dorks and no payoffs, get stuck with evolution and only 1 drops to pod up, draw rallier with no fetches, draw all 3 of my 5 drops in the first 2 turns, draw felidar with a dork out and slime/thrag in hand having to do crap sequencing to max value, etc etc. I know some of this is just variance, but it feels like there are just so many ways that things go wrong and the deck has near-zero interaction. We are either comboing off or applying pressure - but while trying to be the beatdown with lotus cobra and voice of resurgence is better than doing it with wall of roots and wall of omens (kiki chord) its still a pretty anemic beatdown.
So for me I think I'm shelving this for the time being. I love that the deck gives me a chance to play a bunch of cards I acquired for Modern but have never used otherwise: rallier, oath, evolution, saheeli, felidar and to some extent cobra (i have another cobra BTL brew). But I mostly play interactive toolbox decks, and if I'm going for a non-interactive combo deck this one just seems slow and vulnerable
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I feel like Cobra is so essential to our broken draws that 4-of is a necessary evil even if it's not great in multiples, as it enables a ton of lines that would be otherwise impossible. If anything the shave may be on Rallier as the combo is much less reliant on it as the rest of the pieces (I could see cutting 1 or 2).
Has there been any testing with Nissa, Steward of Elements? I want to swap with a pair of Ralliers and see where it gets me. Part of the deck's weakness is the lack of CA and manipulation and she seems to fit both roles (non-bo with Rallier of course).
The other insane idea I've been bouncing around is shaving pieces for some number of Summoner's Pact, maybe even the full playset. If our primary game plan is to assemble a turbo-combo on t2 or t3, it would help us find the missing piece (either Cobra or Rallier) to complete it. Again, this is definitely just theorycrafting.
The Summoner's Pact still sounds too cute. Even Hoogland cut it from his all-in build. It might add a percent or two to the (low) chance of comboing out on T2 but it's a liability and doesn't tutor either of our actual combo pieces or many of our bullets for the rest of the game.
There's a limit to how "all-in" you can go. Even with out best efforts to combo out on T3 we will often be out-raced or have our combo route shut down before T3, especially on the draw against Storm (T2 Baral into T3 Gifts storm), Humans (T2 Meddling Mage on Saheeli), Affinity (T3 Inkmoth / Plating), and perhaps Burn (T1 Guide -> T2 Eidolon). Running Qasali Pridemage, Kambal, and a couple Paths in the main are my concessions to these matchups right now.
--------
In an effort to assess my boarding plans and get better at the matchups I jammed ~20 games vs Cheeri0s and Storm today. If it's useful to anyone here were my takeaways:
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Voice of Resurgence
3x Renegade Rallier
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
1x Thalia's Lancers
Spells (14)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
2x Path to Exile
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Stony Silence
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
VS Storm -4 Voice, -1 Pridemage, -1 Rallier, -1 Rhino, +3 Thalia, +1 Gaddock, +1 Aven Mindcensor, +1 Eidolon, +1 Staticaster
Having Kambal in the main with 6x 1-CMC dorks and 4x Evos helped significantly game 1 against both Cheeri0s and Storm. Post-board Thalia and Kambal remained relatively strong against Cheeri0s, but were less impressive against Storm, which is better at filtering its way to Lightning Bolt or Grapeshot. The other awkward thing I hadn't thought about was that Thalia's 2/1 first-strike body lines up poorly with Baral's 1/3 body, so she can't attack safely. The same is true for Lotus Cobra. Felidar doesn't attack well, and if they have mana open you don't want to attack with Eidolon since even just one point of damage opens him up for removal by Bolt. Closing out the game takes ages if you don't happen upon the combo. The result is that I had a lot of games where I set up a lock -- even a 2-3 piece lock with Eidolon, Thalia, Gaddock, etc -- but was only able to push 1-3 damage through per turn while only casting one spell per turn (Oath becomes rather sad under Eidolon) and so in perhaps half of these games Storm was able to undo the lock piece-by-piece until it could go off. Thalia's symmetry was problematic in maybe 1/4 of the games she was in vs Storm (ex: can't cast Saheeli on 3 lands with her in play), but her tax was obviously much more helpful than harmful overall.
Given her great performance vs Cheeri0s and OK performance against Storm I will probably replace the third Thalia in the side for something else. The next test will be to make sure that having Kambal in the main isn't too much of an opportunity cost in the rest of my matchups. Lancers didn't come up much but did tie up one game nicely, no firm thoughts on the card yet.
In my own testing I quite liked a Gaddock Teeg and Sigarda, Heron's Grace in the main as the bullets against Storm, but I'm also wary of adding the 5th color to my deck as you have. I haven't seen Cheerios in a long time so I'm not sure if having the Kambal is worth it. Lack of Cheerios in my meta also leads me to shy away from Thalia (also her nonbo with your noncreature pieces). Postboard they usually bring in the creature removal anyway...
If adding black, I would like to toy with the idea of Anafenza, the Foremost, as we are such a dog against Dredge and RB Hollow One has been surging in popularity recently (she's also just a great beater).
We can't actually play a good mid-range game because pia and Kiran isn't path to exile and voice of resurgence isn't tasigur. The stars have to align for us to get there with voice tokens or four mana cloudshifts as opponent must play along - terminate voice so we can rallier it back or queller our rallier giving us a voice token or have no pressure on a saheeli etc.
The cards are synergistic enough but the overall strategy of slow vulnerable combo propped up by dorks and voice into a grizzly bear hurloon minotaur beatdown as plan b just doesn't feel powerful enough vs what people are doing in most games.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
My local meta (and from what I've played on MTGO) skews towards linear aggro and combo (and Tron variants), so I've been running my build to race the combo. Our grindy plan B basically can't match decks designed to actually force the midrange game anyway.
I've found much more success opting for a combo-focused build than to play a delicate balancing game between combo-grind. It's painfully obvious that hand disruption and spot removal becomes a weak point in a combo build, but to be honest we are dogs against matchups that play those type of interactions, even if we are more midrange focused! For this reason I choose to use glue cards like Coiling Oracle (Wall is fine but worse with Cobra) and Augur to provide card advantage and selection to supplement the combo.
Some more thoughts about potential sideboard cards; would be interested in the general opinion:
Spell Queller - Creature-based interaction, but I'm not quite sure which matchups it should come in. I can only think of boarding in against Control, but it's pretty awkward with so much Bolt and Helix going around.
Faerie Macabre - My friend was trying this out as disruption against graveyard shenanigans. Literally uncastable but also uncounterable. He mainly had it against Snap decks but it had some play against BR Hollow One, Dredge, and even delaying Tasigur/Angler. Some "gotcha" moments against Storm as well (exile Past in Flames if they don't cast it immediately after Gifts). Janky but I found it interesting.
However, I echo maniospas's comments that before you cash in the cards I would try something like one of Lejoon's recent lists which trades some of the explosiveness of the Hoogland approach for a more consistently smooth 6/2 Dork package, Wall and Courser for draw and filtering, and Paths in the main for interaction.
----------
With that out of the way I have a ~30 person MNM report:
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Voice of Resurgence
3x Renegade Rallier
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
1x Thalia's Lancers
Spells (14)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
2x Path to Exile
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Spell Pierce
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Stony Silence
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Match 1: Burn (0-2)
G1 I have to mull to a keepable 5 with Dork, Oath, Rallier, lands. He sticks T2 Eidolon. I Oath and reveal Siege Rhino... next turn he skull cracks Siege Rhino to seal the game.
G2 I keep a decent hand with Thalia and Rallier, maybe a dork. After his T1 Rift Bolt I play Thalia T2, licking my lips at the taxes that are about to come rolling in. On his T2 he plays Eidolon, which I'm able to remove a couple turns later with a lucky topdeck'd Rec Sage. He follows with a second Eidolon. At that point I decide to pay 4 to Evolve Thalia into Felidar and flicker Rec Sage. I'm able to Rallier Thalia back to the field the next turn but the damage from the double Eidolons has already taken a toll. I topdeck lands for several turns and he Boros Charms me dead.
SB: -2 Saheeli, -1 Lancers // +2 Thalia GoT, +1 Reclamation Sage
Match 2: WB Eldrazi & Taxes (1-2)
G1 I steal a win with a T4 combo
G2/G3 were pretty similar. G2 I did some cute opener things with Hierarch > T2 Cobra > Rallier > Oath > Engineered Explosives on 2. I set it to 2 thinking that I'd want to neutralize their namesake hatebears. Mistake. Opponent played Mirran Crusader followed by Flickerwisp. I detonated Explosives but he had another Thalia to replace it with (lol). Thalia's 2/1 first strike and Mirran Crusader's pro-green essentially invalidate Cobra and Rallier in combat. Eventually I got Rhino on the board but the opponent was able to attack with Crusader and then flicker it for psuedo vigilance. G3 was similar, except with the added salt of drawing 5-6 lands in a row. Lesson learned, hold the EE back until they commit to the board and then likely detonate at 3.
SB: -3 Evolution, -1 Kambal, -1 Lancers // +2 Explosives, +1 Staticaster, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Gearhulk
In hindsight even with the search hate I should've kept at least 2, maybe 3 Evos in since it's essential to both comboing out and getting Gearhulk into play, which felt like the only ways we're winning this matchup
Match 3: Bant Hatebears (2-0)
G1 We get into a board stall. I topdeck Rhino, then next turn I get to evolve Rallier into Lancers, play Saheeli the same turn, and copy Rhino to seal the game.
G2 I combo out on T4-5
SB: -1 Kambal // +1 Gearhulk
Match 4: Burn (2-0)
G1 I combo out at 5 life after my opponent gets greedy and decides to send his Swiftspear damage at me instead of finishing off Saheeli.
G2 He keeps my board clear for several turns. Eventually I'm able to stick Cobra > fetch crack > Evolve cobra into Rhino. Next turn I Felidar flicker Rhino but get Skull Cracked. I swing with Rhino to put my opponent at 1 with myself at 3. Stuck on 3 mana, I evolve Rhino into Kambal and my opponent scoops.
SB: -2 Saheeli, -1 Lancers // +2 Thalia GoT, +1 Reclamation Sage
In the future I might leave the third Saheeli and but cut the third Rallier
Overall 2-2
-The 6/3 dork config felt great and I recommend it for anyone in a meta with lots of fast aggro & combo decks.
-The third Rallier is not bad but feels flexible, I'm thinking more about what I want here... I might proxy up Jadelight Ranger for testing. Other options are Courser, Splicer, and KotR. I'd prefer to keep it GW to spare my manabase any more strain.
-Lancers broke through a board stall in a big splashy way. I can't tell yet if it was a little slow and win-more or simply win-enough. Definitely adds some good lines but is expensive and also must be supported with enough 3-CMC Evo fodder. Still assessing.
-Kambal was still a decent option against Burn, though worse than the Finks he replaced vs Hatebears. I did see at least one Storm player at the tables so for now I feel vindicated in running Kambal in the main but as a legendary below-curve creature he's going to have to put in some work to keep earning his spot.
-Mirran Crusader is tough. I'm open to tips in general vs WB Taxes if anyone has them. I probably just need to get some more practice against this deck.
In my experience, the way to beat Mirran Crusader is by having creatures that block it well: Reflector Mage, double Felidar Guardian, Blade Splicer, Lancers. You can also remove it with P&K, Glorybringer, Helix or Path. The card is annoying, but there are a decent number of ways to beat it. Just remember that it's often even more important to answer Eldrazi Displacer.
----------------
I can try and keep track of Glorybringer vs Lancers if it'll help but both it and P&K aren't really feasible for me at the moment due to the RR cost with Rhino.
To elaborate a bit more on why I was interested in testing Lancers I like that it supports both the combo and value plans reasonably well game 1, which in theory sounds like exactly the kind of card we’re interested in as long as the body is relevant enough.I'm not sure I understand the conflict between Rhino and Rallier. Do you mean as competing Evo targets off of Voice? Assuming I don't see Saheeli I'll usually Evolve for Rhino over Rallier for the extra sustain and since a 4/5 trample + direct damage can get damage through some more cluttered board states. Additionally Rhino is safer against Anger of the Gods (which I otherwise run fewer answers to in my 75) and is usually a much better flicker / clone target than Rallier in case I do draw into either combo piece. Also I try to run a lot of 2-CMC hatebears to bring in from the side, and with 4x Evo I'm regularly stocking the grave with 2-drops. So yes, sometimes I'll use Rallier for acceleration but if I have a relevant hatebear I'll usually try to hold the Rallier back and play it when I need to rez the hatebear (see my M1G2 against Burn above).
I get the combo it's just slow and vulnerable. I don't get the backup plan because it gets utterly stonewalled by goyf tasigur tks etc so how are you outgrinding abzan Jund jeskai control gds etc? They have better bodies more interaction and more CA. Are you grinding the linear decks because I don't see beating burn infect storm etc by poking for five over four turns.
Anyways keep plugging away and I'll check in to see if there's a breakthrough now and then. I just can't see the path from here where the deck can combo, grind, race, and interact effectively based on the matchup. I had the same block w kiki chord where I'd draw voices and walls and get combod out or chords and dorks and get searing blazed off the face of the earth. Could very well just be playstyle and low tolerance for feeling helpless when I have an ostensibly good draw
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@maniospas: I see what you're saying but I don't think that particular sequencing line comes up so often or is so bad that I have a problem with it. I'd also rather not cut a 3-drop for a 2-drop while running Lancers as I want at least 4x 3-CMC creatures to be able to Evo into Lancers.
--------
EDIT: Continuing my assessment of Jadelight Ranger I think the closest point of comparison is Courser of Kruphix, as both are 1GG creatures with potentially relevant bodies that provide means of card selection.
Jadelight Ranger arguably digs better, immediately going through the top 2 cards and potentially setting you up to draw Saheeli that was 3 cards down next turn. This dig effect synergizes well with our core: each time you clone or flicker Jadelight you dig another 2 cards.
Courser is much better at general filtering and actually providing you with physical card advantage, but fetch-shuffling away cards you don't want is statistically a poorer way to find a specific card you want than (repeatedly) digging down linearly.
Jadelight's body usually a 3/2, sometimes a 4/3, and very rarely a meager 2/1. The 4/3 will trade up against TKS and some other 4-drops, but is also unfortunately still hit by Anger of the Gods and Bolt. Perhaps this is OK since it generates more value up front on ETB.
Courser's 2/4 body is very relevant against unevasive aggro lists. Because of it's 4 toughness it can stick to the board through Bolt and Anger, making it a better choice against Burn, Jeskai, Titanshift, Skred. It usually presents a slower clock than Jadelight.
Courser's lifegain gives it an additional edge against aggressive decks. However, I do think that playing with your top card flipped is a significant disadvantage for us. Having Saheeli sitting on top ensures that your opponent will pass the turn ready to interact if possible.
Overall I think Courser is probably the better card overall despite its poorer core synergy.
The funny thing is, what if you don't actually have the third land in hand? Then the Rallier actually does something very useful by enabling you to cast that Rhino.
Or what if you are facing a deck where holding up an extra mana for Path is important? Even if you're just bluffing it, that's actually good.
So I can just as easily find examples where the two cards interact well
First off, thank you for all the posts and SB guide. I'm really interested in trying to make something near this list start to come together for GP Toronto if I end up going.
3rd Rallier: Now I've yet to try a 4 Cobra/4 Rallier build, but in my experience with a 'normal' (less all-in) build even the second one felt like too much sometimes. Is there a Voice/Oath/Canopy to grab a high enough percentage of the time?
KotR: I tried 2 Knights for a while, and while I eventually wanted to move away from the Knight/GQ/Gavony package, I can say that Knight is a pretty nice threat that always makes an strong impact if not removed. It's good with the new higher fetch count, and its presence was particularly appreciated against E Tron.
Manabase: No Temple Garden? I keep a fair amount of 1-landers with some dorks/Oaths, but would feel a lot less comfortable doing so without a Garden to fetch.
Also, looking to ease some strain, is 2 each of U/R shocks really necessary with your build? I see this allows you to more reliably get these colours off the non-G fetches, but if that's the case why not just more G fetches? I guess it would enable you to roll up fetching your 1 W source along with an off colour at the same time? I'd love to delve deeper into this, and figure out details that I'm not picking up.
Kambal: I want to try out your splash build, and like the idea of Kambal at first blush. Against Storm, I like that it's a fragile hate piece (like Teeg, as opposed to Eidolon) while also speeding up our clock while they dig. How has it tested against Burn, does it complement the Rhinos nicely?
Some SB cards:
EE: Looking at the SB guide, I can't help but think of Fiery Justice instead, although the Humans MU might be too much reason. It also can feel bad to play FJ before maxing out on Paths.
I would also get the desire to lean away from Stony/Kataki, since I like the Affinity MU with enough Path/FJ and Rec Sage/Staticaster. Then there's Lantern to think about, which used to feel ~50/50 in my small sample size with Noble, Oath, Evo, Qasali/Sage, Tracker, although I haven't played against it now with Whir and Needle/Cage main. I guess it's now probably significantly worse.
Mindcensor: I tried it a while back, and felt it wasn't doing enough vs Valakut. But then I've tried everything to improve this MU beyond the point of just accepting an unfavoured race.
Thalia: I've been thinking about it, and looking at your guide I really want to try it out. Would you say it's definitely been helpful?
Vs WB Taxes (Eldrazi?), one way to attack it that I've liked is just more removal. Every additional Path/Helix/FJ helps, although FJ not with Mirran Crusader of course. Removal is also just always really good against Affinity, Humans, Coco, etc.
Thanks again for the SB guide, and cheers to everyone posting here too.
Sure, I'll mess around with KotR.
My manabase is partly limited by what I had on hand and the fact that I started with a red-heavy list and preferred Khans fetches (Foothills over Rainforest) to save budget, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm running 3x non-green fetches because I wanted extra sources to grab basic plains to better insulate myself against Blood Moon, which I think is a good call even in a budgetless "perfect" land base. As a result I needed the dual shocks to keep my color coverage up on each fetch. There's probably a fetch config with Misty Rainforest that would let me shave one of the U or R shocks and still keep my color coverage good as you say. I cut the Temple Gardens because I was already at 5 shocks and wanted to work black in. I realized that I rarely fetched for Gardens, instead opting for basic Forest, basic Plains, and then splash shock. There are some very niche scenarios where missing Gardens makes it impossible to grab a second green or white source with a particular Fetch so for this reason I can't necessarily advocate it as being "correct" but in ~98% of my games I don't miss it and I haven't lost any games because of it yet.
Right, he's mostly here for Storm but gives some benefit to burn. I've only gotten Kambal into play against burn in one game so far this week. I think most of the time he's a removal magnet that reads "Pay 3, gain 5 life and opponent loses 2 life". The thing to keep in mind about the black splash against burn is that in order to have a net positive life gain from Kambal or Rhino you need to either find a chance to fetch for a tapped Overgrown Tomb, Evolve into them, or get lucky enough to have a Dork stick / rez a dork with Rallier. If you have to fetch-shock an untapped Tomb just to cast them you're merely breaking even on life. Further shoring up burn is another reason I was thinking of replacing the 3rd Rallier with Courser of Kruphix. If Burn is a high priority for you I think your best cards are Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk, and Finks. Rhino and Kambal (aided by Thalia) are decent generalist cards that help against Burn but don't provided quite as much concentrated lifegain.
I've been on both sides of Fiery Justice. In the early to mid game it can be an amazing 3-for-1 but sometimes after a few pump effects their team gets husky enough to shrug off most of the damage, or you feel sad when its sorcery speed stops you from hitting something important. In this sense I like that EE ignores buffs and directly destroys some of the most dangerous Merfolk, Robots, and Humans on CMC 2 even if you topdeck it several turns in. EE's application to Lantern, Cheeri0s, and other random permanents is a nice bonus. With that said I think maxing out on Paths with a couple FJs is probably effective as well.
I also like Stony vs Tron, but you may be right here. My local Lantern player still seems to be on the whirless build so I can't offer much insight there.
I just added Mindcensor recently and haven't gotten it in play enough to form an opinion. I think you are correct about Valakut. If you're expecting a lot of Titanshift I would make a point of finding room for 2x Unified Will in the side. I'm not running into that much Titanshift & Tron right now so I'm just on 1x Spell Pierce but for a GP I think running both Wills would be a good idea.
Overall I would say yes she's been helpful. She's not a hard-lock silver bullet against any particular deck and can occasionally trip us up a little bit, too, but she's helped me tempo my way to victory in a handful of matches so far where the combo was likely to be disrupted with spells and I needed to focus on beat-down, namely Jeskai. She does require you to restrain your spell count a bit and clashes with Path, which is part of the reason I cut that to 2x. Each match with her has been a bit of an experiment and while I'm pleased with the results so far I'd certainly appreciate a second opinion. Still looking to get more testing on how helpful she is vs Scapeshift. I think for a GP she could be a safe choice as a 1-of in the side if you don't have enough time to get a bunch of reps in with her.
Right... I certainly regretted shaving to 2x Paths here.^_^;
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Renegade Rallier
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
1x Thalia's Lancers
Spells (14)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
2x Path to Exile
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Path to Exile
1x Spell Pierce
1x Unified Will
1x Stony Silence
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
3x Coiling Oracle
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Felidar Guardian
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Renegade Rallier
1x Thalia's Lancers
1x Thragtusk
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Eldritch Evolution
4x Oath of Nissa
side:
No changes from the list I posted on Wednesday
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Renegade Rallier
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3x Felidar Guardian
2x Siege Rhino
1x Thalia's Lancers
Spells (14)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Eldritch Evolution
2x Path to Exile
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Path to Exile
1x Spell Pierce
1x Unified Will
1x Stony Silence
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
G1 I curved Voice into Kambal. I wasn't sure what to expect out of him, but he ended up doing something like +6 -6 life swing and my opponent later told me that Kambal kept him off some of the lines he would've preferred -- guess he didn't have removal on hand. I blocked with Voice -> Rallier rez Voice while Kambal drained him for his scours and inquisitions. Eventually I got Courser on the board, putting me up to 24 life and a decent board. When he has 2 life he's forced to swing in with double 11/11 shadows. I block both. He Battle Rages one but my cushy life total leaves me with 2 life and I win on the crack back.
G2 on the draw I keep a hand I shouldn't have gotten away with -- one land, oath, cobra, rallier, felidar, voice, and rhino -- and he inquisitions away the Cobra, not processing that I was on one land until he passed back to my turn. I draw into my 2nd & 3rd lands, curving Oath into Voice into Rallier into Rhino. Rhino gets pushed. I draw into a second Rhino, path his Shadow. I flicker the second Rhino to burn him out.
SB -3 Birds, -1 Hierarch, -3 Evo // +1 Path, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Thalia GoT, +1 Explosives, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Kitchen Finks, +1 Tireless Tracker
2-0 games, 1-0 overall record
Match 2: GW Tron
G1 I start with a hand that has Birds, Oath, and both combo pieces. I curve Birds into Saheeli on the draw. He hits Tron T3 but plays O-stone and a Relic with 2 mana open. I combo out T3.
G2 I keep a hand with Oath, Cobra, Rallier, Stony, and Felidar. T3 I play cobra into Rallier into Stony but he cracks his map in response. He hits Tron T3 or T4 and I haven't drawn anything relevant off Oath. He plays Ugin to exile my board, followed by Karn next turn, then Wurmcoil. Scoop.
G3 Back on the play with Birds, Cobra, Saheeli, Pridemage, and Voice. My opponent is one turn behind finding tron. I topdeck Gaddock T3, get him on the field, and T4 I draw Evo off the top and Evolve Voice into Felidar to combo out.
SB -2 Path, -2 Voice, -1 Rallier, -1 Courser // +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Unified Will, +1 Stony Silence, +1 Thalia GoT, +1 Gaddock, +1 Selfless Spirit
2-1 games, 2-0 overall record
Match 3: UG Merfolk
G1 I was on the defensive pretty much immediately but with Saheeli in hand I thought I could still maybe pull it off if I could Evo into Felidar. He's amassing a big board so I feel pressured to get Saheeli out, protected by Voice, and tick her up. He swings in with 4 fish, 3 on saheeli, and 1 at me, then vials in a lord to kill her. Next turn I try to get some sustain by playing Evo (voice -> rhino) around curse catcher but it gets hit by Spell Pierce to seal the game.
G2 I mull to 6, lead with oath, then put Explosives down T2 on 2. This slows down his board development, but he still has a 1-CMC Speaker, 2-CMC Branchwalker, and 3-CMC creature chipping in. My T3 Saheeli is Negated. I have to detonate explosives and Path one of his fish to stay alive but I'm on the backfoot the whole time. I set up some blockers with Voice and Elementals but he sticks an Islandwalk lord and my breeding pool betrays me.
SB -2 Voice, -1 Kambal, -1 Rallier, -1 Rhino, -1 Lancers // +1 Path, +2 Explosives, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Finks, +1 Gearhulk
0-2 games, 2-1 overall record
Match 4: Abzan Combo Elves
G1 I curve into Saheeli and scry to leave Felidar on the top. My opponent spews forth Elves, plays Shaman of the Pack to take me to 9, and then sacs 5 Elves to flip Westvale Abbey and hit me for the remaining 9. Dirty, but sweet.
G2 I keep a hand with Birds, Cobra, Rallier, Evo, and Felidar. He plays Phyrexian Revoker naming Saheeli. I path Revoker, and next turn Evolve Rallier into Gearhulk to take out a couple dorks and a Druid, leaving him with a second Devoted Druid. Next turn he Chords into Vizier, uses infinite mana to play Ezuri and pump the Druid for lethal.
SB -1 Voice, -1 Pridemage, -1 Kambal, -1 Rallier, -1 Rhino, -1 Lancers // +1 Path, +2 Explosives, +1 Gaddock, +1 Finks,
+1 Gearhulk
I should’ve let him keep the revoker off Gearhulk and saved Path for Druid.
0-2 games, 2-2 overall record
Kambal was surprisingly solid against Shadow. Overall this matchup still feels pretty favorable outside of Temur Battle Rage hijinks.
Got a little lucky against Tron, but I'll take it. Swapped the Unified Will back in the SB at just the right time.
Despite the fact that Courser doesn't directly synergize with the deck's core, she put in work and it felt good to have her back.
Thalia's Lancers didn't come up, but continues to be OK but not terribly exciting in theory.
Games 3 & 4 were back-to-back 0-2 tribal-fueled blood baths. In retrospect I should've mulled down harder to dig for the combo here, I think I still need to develop a finer feel for what sorts of hands I can keep against aggro decks. In terms of removal choices Explosives seemed alright but it alone doesn't seem consistently strong enough to make a non-combo hand keepable. Obviously running the 4th Path in the 75 would be good if I can find room without overloading non-creature spells. I'm also thinking about other sweepers... Slaughter the Strong works well with Felidar / Birds but might give the opponent too much choice (such as allowing opponent to keep druid again), Settle the Wreckage is powerful but too gimmicky for repeated events at a shop, Kozilek's Revenge is interesting at instant speed though the symmetry hurts, could go back to 1x Fiery Justice, Supreme Verdict gets around Merfolk counterspells, Firespout could do some interesting asymmetric things vs Affinity... Worship ... a friend also suggested using Ensnaring Bridge since we can combo under it, which is interesting if we were able to dump our hand fast enough.
Something I find really good vs merfolk, elves, humans, and affinity is ghostly prison. All depends how many non creature spells you want... 1 of cataclysmic gearhulk in the side has been Paramount vs these decks and lantern.
Affinity -- quickly dumps their hand and is happy to pay 2 to attack with their massively Plated / Modular buffed attacker
Humans & Merfolk -- Vial in threats and then save their mana for paying the Prison tax. This does slow their tempo a bit, but is it enough?
Elves -- With infinite mana (or even just a lot of mana) or Shaman of the Pack the tax is irrelevant
Additionally Ghostly Prison doesn't stop them from freely attacking Saheeli, although with less pressure on our life total we could better hold her back to play along with / after Felidar.
How has it played out in your games?
I find what it does well is stall for combo which these decks have little interaction with.