What can we do against Control like UW and Jeskai? I’ve been on the deck for a month and I have yet to win one match against Jeskai. 4 mainboard VoR isn’t enough which is sad.
Perhaps a Thrun in the board? He fell out of favour but is probably still pretty good vs uw if you dodge the first verdict and they don't run blessed alliance... Or runed halo... Or settle the wreckage... HM maybe not :-P
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Thrun can even be Spell Quellered. I wouldn't run that card, it just doesn't reliably win againt UW/Jeskai the way you want it to and it's irrelevant in way too many other matchups. There were times when it was the next biggest thing right after Tarmogoyf, but the fair decks have so many fatties these days, a 4/4 just doesn't matter enough, even with great abilities like hexproof and regeneration.
My view on the UW/Jeskai matchup is that you can't slam a single trump card and rely on that to win the game for you, instead you need to overtax their answers and mana by having a good curve and high threat density. Voice, Saheeli, Blood Moon, Rallier, Tracker are some of the cards I like best against them - no big surprises here. Back those up with Spell Pierce to resolve something in the first few turns, and you are ahead. Alternatively, try to set up a turn where you cast two revelant spells in one turn to get through their countermagic. Remember that extra mana from their Paths can help you with that.
Keep a few Paths ready for Spell Queller, and play intelligently against Wrath effects: The more Spell Quellers you see, the less Supreme Verdicts and Anger of the Gods they will have. Don't get greedy and overextend, it's usually not a race, but try to constantly pressure them while building up a hand. Always keep Cryptic Command, Settle the Wreckage and Spell Snare in mind, since navigating around those can make a big difference. Don't allow them to trade Snapcaster Mage in combat against an important creature like Voice of Resurgence or Gaddock Teeg.
UW usually has enough targets that Reclamation Sage can do some real work against them. Use Saheeli's -2 aggressively to push through extra damage when they tap out, since UW can't punish her for having low loyalty.
Probably the best things you can do is win the die roll, draw good opening hands and topdeck well - the matchup isn't abysmal in my experience, but some games can feel that way.
Been trying huntmaster - yeah... flickering him is ok but copying with saheeli leaves a lot to be desired. -2 for 2 life and a wolf is not a minus effect I would ever want.
Hoogland was playing coiling oracle but it seems very corner case that this would be better than wall of omens, and I don't think we really want either anyways. Generally I think you want dork into saheeli/rallier or 2 drop plus dork/oath. Failing that a t2 voice/cobra is fine and if none of these lines are available what did you keep? Is he trying to go for t2 oracle flipping land to get t3 felidar flicker oracle? Didnt watch videos, takes too long >< prefer text content.
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Had same impression with pia and Kiran - drawing it sucks but also how often am I evolving this over felidar?
I've been meaning towards evolving for felidar as long as I can flicker something for value. Unclear if good cause if you don't find saheeli then evolving felidar feels really dumb compared to rallier flicker voice etc value plays.
Same old story really - what to do with the seven flex spots
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Great report davius! As for your sideboarding vs Tron, I recommend bringing in Rec Sage and Pridemage. They aren't going to win the game by themselves, but occasionally you might be able to destroy an Expedition Map, Oblivion Stone, Pithing Needle or Grafdigger's Cage. Doesn't stop you from losing to their planeswalkers, but probably still more relevant than Voice.
I've had similar experiences with regards to Ghost Quarter: It can be great and has plenty of synergy with our cards, but we probably don't have room for 2. In matchups where we can't rely on our mana creatures to stick, colorless lands are a liability.
I ran into grishoalbrand and thought that with gaddock teeg out they might have to find and goryos out borbygomos to do anything since it shuts off breach and shoal and one hit from a grisel isnt a big deal. Turns out they can splice breach onto goryos to get past teeg the more you know! Not sure if eidolon of rhetoric would have been better, but I had both in the deck as well as 2 unified wills.
Im trying teeg md as a g1 bullet, stops a lot of relevant cards just not sure when id want to evolve it over something else
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It's still just a speed bump vs storm as they can easily grapeshot him tho no? Similar in Tron they may just have the pyroclasm brutality or ostone although if they don't I see him buying multiple turns and even soft locking since Tron without Karn or ugin is pretty weak. He's not the hard lock on Tron or storm that eidolon is to storm or kataki to affinity. But bonus points for stopping verdict cryptic company and chord!
Here's the list I'm currently running online - I still feel like I'm hovering on the flex slots and maybe I always will:
Does cobra really earn it's keep? Unless you have turn one dork it doesn't feel like it does much. You can Tapout for it turn two and if it survives and you have saheeli evolution you can turn three kill which dork saheeli felidar would do anyways?
It has synergy w rallier and tracker and pods into guardian so I get it in principle, but in games it never seems to impress me and often feels bad to draw
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I pretty like much Cobra on the deck, it allows you to combo in T2 (if you have the god hand). But apart of that, it can make you throw almost all your hand to the opponent a put a lot of pressure. Also, lots of times when I tried to combo I said: damn! I need one mana more! And I'm sure lots of you faced that problem too even landing a land, so Cobra tries to resolve that too.
P.S.S. By the way, do copies have the same CMC as originals?
Yes, they do.
I moved a bit from basically a GW deck to a GWU deck. That's because most of times where I play, there are some control decks around, and trying to combo or hitting them was pretty hard. I added the U so I can get some response to it when it's time to combo.
Those cards are very common ones: Remand and Cryptic Command. Also I changed the Oath of Nissa for Serum Visions. I know, it's not the same, but adding more non-creature spells makes it non-viable. I have to say I liked it more than I thought making this changes. There is the same probabiltie on comboing on T2-T3 than the GW standard version.
Cobra has been a very swingy card for me. If you don't have enough lands to trigger it or topdeck it later in the game, it can feel really bad. It's also not always desirable to draw multiples, and keeping an opener that relies on it makes you vulnerable to interaction (even more than in the case of 1cmc accelerators).
On the other hand, it allows for some extremely explosive draws. Opening hands containing Cobra + Rallier(s) + Saheeli/Evolution can establish a powerful board position very quickly or even produce a combo win out of nowhere. A few weeks ago I had a game where I played Cobra on turn 2, then on turn 3 fetched, played Rallier and fetched, did the same with a second Rallier, sacrificed my Horizon Canopy, and played a Blood Moon. I passed the turn with 4 basics, 3 creatures with 8 total power and a Blood Moon in play against an opponent with Gideon of the Trials and no basic lands. That Cobra cost me 2 mana and produced 6 mana the next turn. These kind of free wins is what you get in exchange for sometimes drawing a 2/1 with no abilities in the later stages of the game.
My take on Cobra is that to maximize its potential, you should have at least 5-6 accelerators for turn 1, so you can play Cobra + fetch on turn 2 and go nuts. This, on the other hand, doesn't really leave room for 4 Cobras, so 2-3 is my preference right now.
Removing oaths reduces your rallier and felidar targets, so keep that in mind. Riverwise augur looks horrid. Something like Painful truths wil flat out draw 3 for 3, and we're talking about evolving a voice or cobra into a 2/2 that draws one and possibly loots twice? I dont see it.
The comments on cobra reflect my experience. I will try going down to two and see how that feels. As someone mentioned earlier everytime you mess with your mana dork distribution it has a big impact on whats good for the rest of the deck. If im on 2 cobra do I still want 3 rallier? If I go down to 2 rallier do I still want 3 felidar? If I go down to 2 felidar what am I doing with these 4 slots I just freed up?
Ive also found the vomit hand onto table is often not great. Trying to punch through goyfs tasigurs seers and shadows is a tall order for a board of 3/2 and 2/1s and bleeding resources to chip them down is nonbo with the other plan of protecting saheeli while keeping a body out for evolution.
I know in my bring to light brews id do a 3/3/3 split of bird hierarch cobra - but I was ok w 9 dorks in part because I had use for floods - glittering wish for bombs for example, and some pump effects - a sword or two and an increasing savagery and sometimes id run overrun or wilt leaf liege. In these saheeli decks the only residual value of a dork is podding it into a rallier or silver bullet and chump blocking.
Which is to say - this deck feels like it can be explosive and it can grind but it can also fail to do the thing you want because you draw cards that support the other half (no dorks early, topdeck dorks late)
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I have my doubts about Riverwise Augur. Brainstorm is powerful, sure, but does that justify a 4cmc 2/2 body with that as its only ability? Seems really slow for Modern, and is it even better than Champion of Wits? Also, our fetchlands already interact with so many of our other cards (Cobra, Rallier, Tracker, Moon). Keeping one to use after Brainstorming for 4 mana isn't always going to be possible. Oath, Saheeli and Evo help getting rid of cards after putting them on top, but overall I don't see a high enough ceiling on this card.
I went for 20 lands as I got enough mana producer on the deck (the only thing I can blame is that I don't have some lands which I definetly buy them), and I don't get flooded/stuck by them. Triple cost on 3 cards (cryptics and kiki) they aren't a problem most of times since with fetching for 1 RG land and the rest GW/WU with birds and cobra on game, I almost never have problems by casting them.
I think I orientated more my deck to a mid-range deck most of my games. If I can Saheeli T2 I'm going for it, that's for sure, but then, if I try on T3 to combo with Felidar, if they are not tapped they can use Path, Bolt, bounce with the trigger on the pile... and that kind of things was what happening to me when I was playing it mostly GW deck, no response to control, they beat you.
When I started to go with this build, I was able to interact more with my opponent with the counters and draws they provide. So basically, what I'm doing is:
With fetches we all empty the deck from lands
With remands, we can avoid the killing of our peaces that are in the battlefield already or when they try to counter one of them, and, drawing.
Cryptics can be used also as a defensive mechanism tapping opponents creatures, and drawing to get one more card out of the deck that can help, or countering something that targets our goals.
Serum visions, I run many times with Oath of Nissa that I needed two of the three cards, and I had to put one of them to the bottom of the library, and that sometimes can cost you a game. Yes, we can't decide the first card we will draw, but at least if one of the 2 scry's are good, we can leave it on the top.
To sumaryze a bit my experience with it - I feel it a bit better to play than before, where I couldn't interact at all with the other player, it was like: I'm doing this and if you counter/remove any of my pieces, I just sit there and watch, hoping to find a card that let me get it back to play or drawing again that piece, and hoping not to get rid of it for twice.
No matter how many times you cast or flicker it in a turn it doesn’t draw the card you need directly into hand, so you’ll need to survive until next turn to draw and cast it
The (IMO) worst-case scenario of "2/1 draw 2 lands" is fortunately the least likely
The (IMO) best-case scenario is "4/3, pitch the dork from the top, leaving combo piece on top" is also rare
As we saw with Branchwalker, Explore becomes more useful as card advantage with heavier recursion effects, especially Sun Titan -- I think this card could be decent if built around but is maybe less exciting to me than Tracker in a vacuum
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@Lejoon: you seemed quite excited about a Black-centric build a few days ago. What has changed your mind?
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ardillacody -- that's a really neat and different approach. I like the way Altar of the Brood allows two Felidar/Restos to combo and also covers some niche scenarios like still being able to mill an opponent even if they have Bridge up and zero cards in hand, or Pithing Needle / Meddling Mage on Saheeli.
My only concern is that the flicker targets for Felidar and Resto are getting a little low due to the decreased creature count and lack of Oaths. I've also seen Jeskai Copycat builds running Spreading Seas as disruption and as a flicker target. Is that something you've considered?
Do Cryptic and Kiki provide too much mana tension in a green-based 4c build?
Even Altar is good against the Jace that with +1 gives all opponents creatures -1/0, which will be destroyer to our cats. The two ways to win that is with kiki + angel or with altar, otherwise, those decks will end up winning, my experience.
I saw the post of jeskai saheeli with spreading seas, but I think the decks differs a bit of my concept. Those are going more control and when they feel save, the play it all in the lategame. With my actual list, I cannot find a spot to add them.
Restoration basically I only land them when 1) I want to combo with altar + felidar; and 2) when I block and blink the blocking creature. If you do this with a renegade, cool, new land on your battlefield, wall of omens also cool a new draw, otherwise, it's just some time I save.
About cryptic and kiki, they doesn't suppose me a problem most of the times, along with cobra and birds I'm usually fine playing them. The only thing, as I said, I'm maybe lacking some shocklands I should already have, like 1 or 2 steam vents.
Some good lands would be: Stomping Ground, Temple Garden, Hallowed Fountain and Steam Vents, or even you could use some other checklands that checks if you control two or more basic lands in case you are aiming a bit more budget lands of the same colors.
I jammed 1-of Riverwise Augur in a mainboard flex slot and my first impressions have been quite positive so far. I think @Lejoon hit on a a lot of the points and these are my own thoughts on the matter:
Synergy with fetch/shuffle effects (one of the most valuable points of Brainstorm)
Synergy with flicker/copy effects
(Minor) Synergy to set up Oath
OK topdeck (replaces self and orders your upcoming draw steps)
OK on an empty board
Fine 4cmc target to evo for if no other good Cat targets are available
CONS
Poor body
Brainstorm ability not ideal without shuffle effects
U in casting cost could prevent hard casting in a majority G/W manabase
Redundant evo target if ANY good flicker targets are available (you would evo out Felidar 99% of the time otherwise)
Overall I think the case for Augur depends on whether you view the deck as "combo-first, value-second" or vice-versa. On a pure value standpoint, Tireless Tracker can run away with the game if unanswered, whereas Augur's flexibility allows for more complex lines to assemble the combo. The opportunity cost of Augur and the absolute worst case scenario (drawing 3 lands with an empty hand and empty board) is also not bad - as long as one of those lands is a fetch you can shuffle away the rest.
Personally, I have had little success with Tireless Tracker, as it lines up very poorly in my meta and takes time to set up. It is too slow against linear decks (Tron, Valakut, Storm, Burn) and not impactful enough against grindy matchups (Control, GDS, Humans, Spirits). Even if it resolves against Control/GDS you must have a land ready to even replace itself. I don't think I've ever drawn more than 2 cards before it died, and even that was a fairly rare occasion.
If anyone else has testing experience with Augur I would highly appreciate it. I think it has definite potential in the deck (not more than 1-of) but requires much more data points before anything conclusive can be drawn.
Tireless tracker is a stand alone threat that generates ca and acts as a mana sink. It is a removal magnet that improves the chances your felidar/saheeli can go off without a path or bolt - or theyve blown removal already on those cards and tracker is free to do his thing. He is really there for midrange and control matchups as he is too slow vs aggro, big mana, or combo.
We are never evolving for tracker. Nor are we evolving for augur. Felidar flickering an oath is the same amount of dig if you're looking for saheeli. Or you could just do a rallier or sun titan value evolution - and if you really want a way to turn evolution into saheeli thats literally what thalias lancers will do, admittedly requiring a 3 drop to sac rather than a 2 but still.
So if we're not podding into this we're hard casting it. The body is awful so you're paying four to best-case draw one loot two, with any actual value depending on you flickering it - again, felidar on oath is same amount of dig - or copying it. Would you be happy to minus 2 a planeswalker for a brainstorm? I wouldnt. Yes its technically a way to dig for the felidar but boy is it low value if you whiff.
By all means try it, I would be happy to be wrong but the scenarios just dont add up to an improvement to me. As a three mana 1/1 id be listening since thats a turn 2 play and we could evo for it with a dork. The extra mana is not worth a point of power and toughness - esp if you're not running sun titan.
Jadelight im less clear on. Would I play a three mana 4/3 with scry 2? Probably not? How about 3 mana 3/2 draw a card scry one? Probably? I have a hard time positioning what this card will be worth and how often flickering or copying will produce value.
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The only changes were cutting Sigarda and Thragtusk for P&K and Wingmate Roc. I can't comment much on those changes since I didn't get to really play with either card.
Round 1 I faced BW Gideon Control featuring 4x Heart of Kiran. I surprised him with the combo on turn 4 thanks to Cobra, then he mulled to 4 game 2 and I had turn 3 Blood Moon after he dropped Gideon of the Trials. All over right? He then played Heart of Kiran, I drew lands and another Blood Moon for the next ~6 turns and lost to Heart of Kiran beatdown. Game 3 he was mana screwed and I unceremoniously attacked him to death.
Round 2: I knew I was facing Storm, and lost the die roll. Since I am light on interaction before sideboarding, a fast combo draw is by far my best route to victory. So I was pretty happy with my opener: 1 Land, 2 Hierarchs and the combo. Needs a land in the top 2 cards to win on turn 3, otherwise it wins on turn 4. Turns out I didn't find a land in time, he made 6 Goblins on turn 2 (so dropping Saheeli wouldn't have been possible even with a land), then had 2 Remands and attacked me to death. Game 2 I mulled to 5, then lost on turn 4 despite bouncing his creatures with Reflector Mage twice. I could have speculated to hit his Gifts with my Mind Censor instead of tapping out, but I wanted to get Felidar on the board to be able to combo if I find Saheeli with the Oath in my hand.
Round 3 I lost to UW Gifts Tron, after decent starts both games all I did was draw lands and attack with some 2/2s. Elesh Norn put an end to that. I was a little frustrated at that point, and called it a night.
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Spell Pierce was pretty bad when I drew it against UW Gifts Tron, since it didn't counter his Wurmcoil Engine or his Path on Gaddock Teeg. Unified Will would have been a lot better there. However, I don't think against Storm I would have gotten the time to use a 2cmc counter, whereas Spell Pierce could have actually helped me if I had drawn it.
I'll be honest, I initially wrote-off Thalia's Lancers as too slow or a touch too small but you're bringing me round to reconsider her based upon the value and inevitability she's added to your long game. I think Tracker + Lancer sounds more appealing to me than Riverwise Auger for now, but these are all interesting areas to test.
Sideboard
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Path to Exile
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stony Silence
3 Unified Will
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Reveillark
Would prefer a few different cards in sideboard but card availability is a bit of an issue here. Notably no Chameleon Colossus, Avalanche Riders or Glen Elendra in my region.
Regarding Riverwise Augur, I disagree that we're never podding for it as there are often board states where a good target for Felidar doesn't exist. In my experience Tracker has felt like a trap, at least in the main deck. It looks good on paper but has been disappointing to play. As mentioned, you essentially never want to pod for it, which is a major detracting factor as four of your best cards in the deck are your main engine in Eldritch Evolution! Not to mention it doesn't interact well with blink effects and only with Saheeli if you have a land to play (and time to crack clues). The circumstances where it is effective is so narrow:
You must find it naturally as a 1-of
You need to play a land to come out ahead
It needs to live long enough for you to benefit
Hope your G1 opponent isn't on Burn, Storm, Tron, Dredge, or any other linear deck that doesn't care
I just don't think the deck should be focusing on midrange creature beatdown in a meta full of linear aggro and combo decks. And in the matchups where it is supposedly good, you still have to find it! I'm not saying it's a straight swap with Augur either (they occupy different roles in the deck), but I think I would even play Courser in the main first.
As far as Thalia's Lancers, it has overperformed for me as a 1-of as it can tutor for both sides of the combo, as well as legendary bullets.
Its important to remember what tracker is doing in the deck. Its an alternate win condition that synergizes with dorks and a fetch heavy manabase. It is good vs midrange and control. If the deck is already good vs midrange and control then it would make sense to pass on tracker despite its reasonable synergy and instead play something that is good vs aggro and/or combo.
I hope the argument is not that riverwise augur is good vs aggro or combo though, because it is not. So if you do not need more midrange/control cards in the deck (tracker) I would think the same logic applies to augur. If you do want this type of card, then the last page of compare-and-contrast may help you decide which card is better suited to this role.
I'm going to try shaving 2 cobras. Its strange as its a card you do not want multiples of, but also dont really care if you draw or not. I think conventional wisdom is - play 4 if you want it every hand and are ok with multiples, play 3 if you want to see one copy, play 1 if its a tutorable card or you can otherwise dig to find it. I dont know what the rational for a two-of is; I guess you need one and want to hedge on thoughtseize? Cobra as a four of seems wrong; but conventional wisdom doesnt tell me whether I should be on 1, 2, or 3. Perhaps that is the definition of when to play 2? ;p
I was also skeptical of lancers but I do feel like the option of turning evolution into saheeli could be worth quite a bit.
Another card I was looking at is green gearhulk. Im not sure what problem it solves but its a pretty good flicker/clone target. I like having a tutorable "burn spell" whether its a rhino or hasty dragon or whatever. Right now if our opponent maths us and can survive the crackback I dont think theres anything we tutor to change that - perhaps pia and then sac thopters counts, but is mana intensive.
Probably crap but worth remembering if we want this effect (I had considered wilt leaf liege earlier for similar role)
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My view on the UW/Jeskai matchup is that you can't slam a single trump card and rely on that to win the game for you, instead you need to overtax their answers and mana by having a good curve and high threat density. Voice, Saheeli, Blood Moon, Rallier, Tracker are some of the cards I like best against them - no big surprises here. Back those up with Spell Pierce to resolve something in the first few turns, and you are ahead. Alternatively, try to set up a turn where you cast two revelant spells in one turn to get through their countermagic. Remember that extra mana from their Paths can help you with that.
Keep a few Paths ready for Spell Queller, and play intelligently against Wrath effects: The more Spell Quellers you see, the less Supreme Verdicts and Anger of the Gods they will have. Don't get greedy and overextend, it's usually not a race, but try to constantly pressure them while building up a hand. Always keep Cryptic Command, Settle the Wreckage and Spell Snare in mind, since navigating around those can make a big difference. Don't allow them to trade Snapcaster Mage in combat against an important creature like Voice of Resurgence or Gaddock Teeg.
UW usually has enough targets that Reclamation Sage can do some real work against them. Use Saheeli's -2 aggressively to push through extra damage when they tap out, since UW can't punish her for having low loyalty.
Probably the best things you can do is win the die roll, draw good opening hands and topdeck well - the matchup isn't abysmal in my experience, but some games can feel that way.
Hoogland was playing coiling oracle but it seems very corner case that this would be better than wall of omens, and I don't think we really want either anyways. Generally I think you want dork into saheeli/rallier or 2 drop plus dork/oath. Failing that a t2 voice/cobra is fine and if none of these lines are available what did you keep? Is he trying to go for t2 oracle flipping land to get t3 felidar flicker oracle? Didnt watch videos, takes too long >< prefer text content.
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I've been meaning towards evolving for felidar as long as I can flicker something for value. Unclear if good cause if you don't find saheeli then evolving felidar feels really dumb compared to rallier flicker voice etc value plays.
Same old story really - what to do with the seven flex spots
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I've had similar experiences with regards to Ghost Quarter: It can be great and has plenty of synergy with our cards, but we probably don't have room for 2. In matchups where we can't rely on our mana creatures to stick, colorless lands are a liability.
Im trying teeg md as a g1 bullet, stops a lot of relevant cards just not sure when id want to evolve it over something else
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Here's the list I'm currently running online - I still feel like I'm hovering on the flex slots and maybe I always will:
4 noble hierarch
4 lotus cobra
2 birds of paradise
Core (22)
4 oath of nissa
4 eldritch evolution
4 voice of resurgence
3 renegade rallier
3 felidar guardian
4 saheeli rai
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
Lands (22)
2 horizon canopy
11 fetch
4 basic
5 shock
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Stony Silence
2 Path to Exile
2 Unified Will
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
It has synergy w rallier and tracker and pods into guardian so I get it in principle, but in games it never seems to impress me and often feels bad to draw
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Yes, they do.
I moved a bit from basically a GW deck to a GWU deck. That's because most of times where I play, there are some control decks around, and trying to combo or hitting them was pretty hard. I added the U so I can get some response to it when it's time to combo.
Those cards are very common ones: Remand and Cryptic Command. Also I changed the Oath of Nissa for Serum Visions. I know, it's not the same, but adding more non-creature spells makes it non-viable. I have to say I liked it more than I thought making this changes. There is the same probabiltie on comboing on T2-T3 than the GW standard version.
Combo pieces of what I'm playing:
I'm planning on adding again Sun Titan, so there can be another good ETB effect and combo piece.
On the other hand, it allows for some extremely explosive draws. Opening hands containing Cobra + Rallier(s) + Saheeli/Evolution can establish a powerful board position very quickly or even produce a combo win out of nowhere. A few weeks ago I had a game where I played Cobra on turn 2, then on turn 3 fetched, played Rallier and fetched, did the same with a second Rallier, sacrificed my Horizon Canopy, and played a Blood Moon. I passed the turn with 4 basics, 3 creatures with 8 total power and a Blood Moon in play against an opponent with Gideon of the Trials and no basic lands. That Cobra cost me 2 mana and produced 6 mana the next turn. These kind of free wins is what you get in exchange for sometimes drawing a 2/1 with no abilities in the later stages of the game.
My take on Cobra is that to maximize its potential, you should have at least 5-6 accelerators for turn 1, so you can play Cobra + fetch on turn 2 and go nuts. This, on the other hand, doesn't really leave room for 4 Cobras, so 2-3 is my preference right now.
The comments on cobra reflect my experience. I will try going down to two and see how that feels. As someone mentioned earlier everytime you mess with your mana dork distribution it has a big impact on whats good for the rest of the deck. If im on 2 cobra do I still want 3 rallier? If I go down to 2 rallier do I still want 3 felidar? If I go down to 2 felidar what am I doing with these 4 slots I just freed up?
Ive also found the vomit hand onto table is often not great. Trying to punch through goyfs tasigurs seers and shadows is a tall order for a board of 3/2 and 2/1s and bleeding resources to chip them down is nonbo with the other plan of protecting saheeli while keeping a body out for evolution.
I know in my bring to light brews id do a 3/3/3 split of bird hierarch cobra - but I was ok w 9 dorks in part because I had use for floods - glittering wish for bombs for example, and some pump effects - a sword or two and an increasing savagery and sometimes id run overrun or wilt leaf liege. In these saheeli decks the only residual value of a dork is podding it into a rallier or silver bullet and chump blocking.
Which is to say - this deck feels like it can be explosive and it can grind but it can also fail to do the thing you want because you draw cards that support the other half (no dorks early, topdeck dorks late)
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Mana-Accelerator / Mana pump
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Lotus Cobra
Combo pieces
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Restoration Angel
2 Altar of the Brood
2 Eldritch Evolution
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Thragtusk
4 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
2 Wall of Omens
4 Path to Exile
I went for 20 lands as I got enough mana producer on the deck (the only thing I can blame is that I don't have some lands which I definetly buy them), and I don't get flooded/stuck by them. Triple cost on 3 cards (cryptics and kiki) they aren't a problem most of times since with fetching for 1 RG land and the rest GW/WU with birds and cobra on game, I almost never have problems by casting them.
I think I orientated more my deck to a mid-range deck most of my games. If I can Saheeli T2 I'm going for it, that's for sure, but then, if I try on T3 to combo with Felidar, if they are not tapped they can use Path, Bolt, bounce with the trigger on the pile... and that kind of things was what happening to me when I was playing it mostly GW deck, no response to control, they beat you.
When I started to go with this build, I was able to interact more with my opponent with the counters and draws they provide. So basically, what I'm doing is:
- With fetches we all empty the deck from lands
- With remands, we can avoid the killing of our peaces that are in the battlefield already or when they try to counter one of them, and, drawing.
- Cryptics can be used also as a defensive mechanism tapping opponents creatures, and drawing to get one more card out of the deck that can help, or countering something that targets our goals.
- Serum visions, I run many times with Oath of Nissa that I needed two of the three cards, and I had to put one of them to the bottom of the library, and that sometimes can cost you a game. Yes, we can't decide the first card we will draw, but at least if one of the 2 scry's are good, we can leave it on the top.
To sumaryze a bit my experience with it - I feel it a bit better to play than before, where I couldn't interact at all with the other player, it was like: I'm doing this and if you counter/remove any of my pieces, I just sit there and watch, hoping to find a card that let me get it back to play or drawing again that piece, and hoping not to get rid of it for twice.Preliminary thoughts:
- Each cast / flicker / copy digs down 2 cards
- No matter how many times you cast or flicker it in a turn it doesn’t draw the card you need directly into hand, so you’ll need to survive until next turn to draw and cast it
- The (IMO) worst-case scenario of "2/1 draw 2 lands" is fortunately the least likely
- The (IMO) best-case scenario is "4/3, pitch the dork from the top, leaving combo piece on top" is also rare
- As we saw with Branchwalker, Explore becomes more useful as card advantage with heavier recursion effects, especially Sun Titan -- I think this card could be decent if built around but is maybe less exciting to me than Tracker in a vacuum
----------@Lejoon: you seemed quite excited about a Black-centric build a few days ago. What has changed your mind?
----------
ardillacody -- that's a really neat and different approach. I like the way Altar of the Brood allows two Felidar/Restos to combo and also covers some niche scenarios like still being able to mill an opponent even if they have Bridge up and zero cards in hand, or Pithing Needle / Meddling Mage on Saheeli.
My only concern is that the flicker targets for Felidar and Resto are getting a little low due to the decreased creature count and lack of Oaths. I've also seen Jeskai Copycat builds running Spreading Seas as disruption and as a flicker target. Is that something you've considered?
Do Cryptic and Kiki provide too much mana tension in a green-based 4c build?
I saw the post of jeskai saheeli with spreading seas, but I think the decks differs a bit of my concept. Those are going more control and when they feel save, the play it all in the lategame. With my actual list, I cannot find a spot to add them.
Restoration basically I only land them when 1) I want to combo with altar + felidar; and 2) when I block and blink the blocking creature. If you do this with a renegade, cool, new land on your battlefield, wall of omens also cool a new draw, otherwise, it's just some time I save.
About cryptic and kiki, they doesn't suppose me a problem most of the times, along with cobra and birds I'm usually fine playing them. The only thing, as I said, I'm maybe lacking some shocklands I should already have, like 1 or 2 steam vents.
Some good lands would be: Stomping Ground, Temple Garden, Hallowed Fountain and Steam Vents, or even you could use some other checklands that checks if you control two or more basic lands in case you are aiming a bit more budget lands of the same colors.
Riverwise Augur
PROS
- Greater flexibility as a card selection engine
- Synergy with fetch/shuffle effects (one of the most valuable points of Brainstorm)
- Synergy with flicker/copy effects
- (Minor) Synergy to set up Oath
- OK topdeck (replaces self and orders your upcoming draw steps)
- OK on an empty board
- Fine 4cmc target to evo for if no other good Cat targets are available
CONSOverall I think the case for Augur depends on whether you view the deck as "combo-first, value-second" or vice-versa. On a pure value standpoint, Tireless Tracker can run away with the game if unanswered, whereas Augur's flexibility allows for more complex lines to assemble the combo. The opportunity cost of Augur and the absolute worst case scenario (drawing 3 lands with an empty hand and empty board) is also not bad - as long as one of those lands is a fetch you can shuffle away the rest.
Personally, I have had little success with Tireless Tracker, as it lines up very poorly in my meta and takes time to set up. It is too slow against linear decks (Tron, Valakut, Storm, Burn) and not impactful enough against grindy matchups (Control, GDS, Humans, Spirits). Even if it resolves against Control/GDS you must have a land ready to even replace itself. I don't think I've ever drawn more than 2 cards before it died, and even that was a fairly rare occasion.
If anyone else has testing experience with Augur I would highly appreciate it. I think it has definite potential in the deck (not more than 1-of) but requires much more data points before anything conclusive can be drawn.
We are never evolving for tracker. Nor are we evolving for augur. Felidar flickering an oath is the same amount of dig if you're looking for saheeli. Or you could just do a rallier or sun titan value evolution - and if you really want a way to turn evolution into saheeli thats literally what thalias lancers will do, admittedly requiring a 3 drop to sac rather than a 2 but still.
So if we're not podding into this we're hard casting it. The body is awful so you're paying four to best-case draw one loot two, with any actual value depending on you flickering it - again, felidar on oath is same amount of dig - or copying it. Would you be happy to minus 2 a planeswalker for a brainstorm? I wouldnt. Yes its technically a way to dig for the felidar but boy is it low value if you whiff.
By all means try it, I would be happy to be wrong but the scenarios just dont add up to an improvement to me. As a three mana 1/1 id be listening since thats a turn 2 play and we could evo for it with a dork. The extra mana is not worth a point of power and toughness - esp if you're not running sun titan.
Jadelight im less clear on. Would I play a three mana 4/3 with scry 2? Probably not? How about 3 mana 3/2 draw a card scry one? Probably? I have a hard time positioning what this card will be worth and how often flickering or copying will produce value.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I played a very similar list to last time:
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Lotus Cobra
1x Reflector Mage
2x Renegade Rallier
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Tireless Tracker
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Wingmate Roc
Other Spells 13
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Path to Exile
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Eldritch Evolution
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Arid Mesa
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Spell Pierce
1x Path to Exile
1x Lighting Helix
1x Fiery Justice
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Stony Silence
1x Damping Matrix
2x Blood Moon
1x Worship
The only changes were cutting Sigarda and Thragtusk for P&K and Wingmate Roc. I can't comment much on those changes since I didn't get to really play with either card.
Round 1 I faced BW Gideon Control featuring 4x Heart of Kiran. I surprised him with the combo on turn 4 thanks to Cobra, then he mulled to 4 game 2 and I had turn 3 Blood Moon after he dropped Gideon of the Trials. All over right? He then played Heart of Kiran, I drew lands and another Blood Moon for the next ~6 turns and lost to Heart of Kiran beatdown. Game 3 he was mana screwed and I unceremoniously attacked him to death.
Round 2: I knew I was facing Storm, and lost the die roll. Since I am light on interaction before sideboarding, a fast combo draw is by far my best route to victory. So I was pretty happy with my opener: 1 Land, 2 Hierarchs and the combo. Needs a land in the top 2 cards to win on turn 3, otherwise it wins on turn 4. Turns out I didn't find a land in time, he made 6 Goblins on turn 2 (so dropping Saheeli wouldn't have been possible even with a land), then had 2 Remands and attacked me to death. Game 2 I mulled to 5, then lost on turn 4 despite bouncing his creatures with Reflector Mage twice. I could have speculated to hit his Gifts with my Mind Censor instead of tapping out, but I wanted to get Felidar on the board to be able to combo if I find Saheeli with the Oath in my hand.
Round 3 I lost to UW Gifts Tron, after decent starts both games all I did was draw lands and attack with some 2/2s. Elesh Norn put an end to that. I was a little frustrated at that point, and called it a night.
---
Spell Pierce was pretty bad when I drew it against UW Gifts Tron, since it didn't counter his Wurmcoil Engine or his Path on Gaddock Teeg. Unified Will would have been a lot better there. However, I don't think against Storm I would have gotten the time to use a 2cmc counter, whereas Spell Pierce could have actually helped me if I had drawn it.
I'll be honest, I initially wrote-off Thalia's Lancers as too slow or a touch too small but you're bringing me round to reconsider her based upon the value and inevitability she's added to your long game. I think Tracker + Lancer sounds more appealing to me than Riverwise Auger for now, but these are all interesting areas to test.
Creatures (26)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Coiling Oracle
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
4 Renegade Rallier
2 Felidar Guardian
1 Riverwise Augur
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Thalia's Lancers
1 Thragtusk
Non-Creatures *12)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Eldritch Evolution
Lands (22)
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
Sideboard
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Path to Exile
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stony Silence
3 Unified Will
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Reveillark
Regarding Riverwise Augur, I disagree that we're never podding for it as there are often board states where a good target for Felidar doesn't exist. In my experience Tracker has felt like a trap, at least in the main deck. It looks good on paper but has been disappointing to play. As mentioned, you essentially never want to pod for it, which is a major detracting factor as four of your best cards in the deck are your main engine in Eldritch Evolution! Not to mention it doesn't interact well with blink effects and only with Saheeli if you have a land to play (and time to crack clues). The circumstances where it is effective is so narrow:
- You must find it naturally as a 1-of
- You need to play a land to come out ahead
- It needs to live long enough for you to benefit
- Hope your G1 opponent isn't on Burn, Storm, Tron, Dredge, or any other linear deck that doesn't care
I just don't think the deck should be focusing on midrange creature beatdown in a meta full of linear aggro and combo decks. And in the matchups where it is supposedly good, you still have to find it! I'm not saying it's a straight swap with Augur either (they occupy different roles in the deck), but I think I would even play Courser in the main first.As far as Thalia's Lancers, it has overperformed for me as a 1-of as it can tutor for both sides of the combo, as well as legendary bullets.
I hope the argument is not that riverwise augur is good vs aggro or combo though, because it is not. So if you do not need more midrange/control cards in the deck (tracker) I would think the same logic applies to augur. If you do want this type of card, then the last page of compare-and-contrast may help you decide which card is better suited to this role.
I'm going to try shaving 2 cobras. Its strange as its a card you do not want multiples of, but also dont really care if you draw or not. I think conventional wisdom is - play 4 if you want it every hand and are ok with multiples, play 3 if you want to see one copy, play 1 if its a tutorable card or you can otherwise dig to find it. I dont know what the rational for a two-of is; I guess you need one and want to hedge on thoughtseize? Cobra as a four of seems wrong; but conventional wisdom doesnt tell me whether I should be on 1, 2, or 3. Perhaps that is the definition of when to play 2? ;p
I was also skeptical of lancers but I do feel like the option of turning evolution into saheeli could be worth quite a bit.
Another card I was looking at is green gearhulk. Im not sure what problem it solves but its a pretty good flicker/clone target. I like having a tutorable "burn spell" whether its a rhino or hasty dragon or whatever. Right now if our opponent maths us and can survive the crackback I dont think theres anything we tutor to change that - perhaps pia and then sac thopters counts, but is mana intensive.
Probably crap but worth remembering if we want this effect (I had considered wilt leaf liege earlier for similar role)
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron