That's really awesome, and seeing you persevere against so many tough match-ups has encouraged me to get the rest of the cards I need to build the physical deck and get out to events. Stay tuned
It looks like for GR Titanshift you advocate a more proactive / tap-out approach of putting down Blood Moon effects and Forge-Tender and then attempting to race rather than holding up mana for Unified Will, is that correct? It certainly matches the cadence of the rest of the deck better.
And I assume you're just hoping to start with or draw into Forge-Tender and never Evo for her? Evo-ing for a 1-drop obviously doesn't feel great.
Maybe a silly question, but does Jund run enough black permanents to make Devout Lightcaster's ETB exile a consistent enough payoff? 4x Bob + 4x Liliana, maybe Olivia? If you keep running into Jund (still weird seeing this as an oddity) I wonder if Miran Crusader would be better here over Lightcaster.
Nicely done Siefer! Great job and good luck at the rptq
Just a couple thoughts:
First, I really like having the 4th Evo in the board to be another bullet in matchups where 1 or 2 creatures are showstoppers. But I can understand the squeeze of the SB.
You say you never tutor rallier, but Voice -> rallier -> Voice is one of my default Evo plans. I basically love to get it whenever Voice is good.
I haven't really found Jund to be that hard (although the sample size is small, as you were alluding to). I do have 2 Finks MB/SB though, as well as 2 relic right now. But the Voice plan is just too strong, and Sigarda is unstoppable.
Lastly, how has Eidolon felt for you? I used to have one but felt that it wasn't pulling its weight. I guess I'm relying on Teeg/relic for Storm/Living End.
Forge-Tender and the moon effects are interesting, and I might have to give them a try.
I think Trinket Mage + EE is neat tech, but I wonder -- is it fast and efficient enough? Trinket Mage / EVO for Trinket is 3 mana, then EE is another X + 2 mana, where X is the CMC you're targeting, so we're at X + 5 total cost for an immediate effect. For a 1 drop you get an immediate effect with 6 mana open, for a 2 drop you need 7 mana, and for a 3 crop you need 8 mana open... and so forth. Conversely, you can mimic EE's ability to snipe one troublesome permament by paying 5 for Angel of Sanctions, you can mimic EE's partial board wipe effect by paying 5 for Gearhulk, or just pay 3 to EVO into either one. I'm sure there are cases where Trinket + EE is better, but we have to balance that against the SB space the package takes up. I'm not totally convinced yet, but I'll think about it more.
Right folks, PPTQ yesterday and I went 1-4-1. Not great and feeling a bit low about it, but I thought I'd put some points on here to help out. To be fair, almost everyone I played was refining a deck for GP so it was quite spikey. About 50 people I guess.
Game 1 - Death's Shadow Jund 0-2
This guy knew his stuff, game one he curved out into a turn 2 shadow, I didn't have removal and either turn 3 or turn 4 he ran me over with a battle raged giant. Board in my black hate, graveyard hate and removal. Game 2 was a much better game, I get a broken lotus cobra start and flood the board. He draws nothing but removal and land, deals with the threats and I have him down to 3, saheeli on board. We're both top decking at this point and I saheeli him down to 1 the turn he plays a Shadow, I pull a blocker and he peels battle rage off the top, my blocker can't stop 24 trampling damage. No feel bads here, it was a good game.
Take home - reflector mage is a house, maybe I should be running more, or 4 paths main.
Game 2 - Abzan 1-2
Game one I die to a Lili ultimate, I probably chose the wrong pile and made a bad decision on the previous turn - I scry 2 with Nissa seeing a reflector mage and something I don't remember - I put that to the bottom. If I had put the whatever on the top I could have chosen the creature pile after the Lili moment, then flipped a reflector mage, probably for the win. In comes black hate. Game 2 I turn 3 evolve a rallier into a sigarda and GG. Game 3 I punted by playing Saheeli onto an empty board facing a 4/5 goyf and a lili (on one), hand is path and cat, opponent hand is empty. I +1 saheeli, forget to redirect to lili (ARGH!) and then have to path the goyf to keep saheeli alive, discard cat to lili, and don't get the topdeck cat. I should have killed lili, path goyf, play cat and win damnit. Lots of feel bads.
Take Home - don't be an idiot, this match up feels good after board because we have such value it's hard to grind us out.
Game 3 - Lantern control 0-2
Game one is interesting, I curve out with nothing fancy and get locked up, but with scooze, excavator, ghost quarter in play, I start to out lock the lock by eating lands and replaying GQ - eventually hoping to run him out of basics, then lands, then as his hand fills up get the win. All going to play until he topdecks pithing needle and names Ghost Quarter, I scoop for time. Bring in all the artifact hate in the world. Game 2 he gets the lock out the fastest I have ever seen but it's all good because I kept a hand with birds and noble. I start getting in for 1 each turn and it looks like this will be the game. He peels Inventor's fair off the top and we lock up with him at 7/8. At that point it became super important that I had some clues on board - but I couldn't crack them unless I saw what I needed - sadly he pithing needled naming clue. I know that angel can get his ensnaring bridge off the embalm, but he draws another one before it arrives so I save him the time of milling me out and we discuss what I should have done. Answer, play stony silence. No feel bads here, he was practicing for GP and having as rough a day as me, I would have liked to win G1 to have the outlocking story to take away but no dice.
Take Away - main board qasali pridemage is a must - not only does it stop Grafdigger's Cage (Came up a couple of times and stops us evolving) but it's fast enough to cause a problem for any lock reliant on bridges.
Game 4 - Jeskai Control 2-1
Game one I curve beautifully with threats and he looks pretty smug as he remoes and counters them. He taps out for an Ajani and I flood him with Cats. Not really sure what to board in here, this match up feels really good - I choose to take out removal for more threats. Game 2 he brings all the answers and I can't go off when he taps out for an Elspeth - cue lots of flying soldiers. Game 3 he is obviously holdin up removal for the combo and I have 3 Saheeli in hand and a sun titan, I just play land go with him for a while, get a couple of Saheeli's killed then he taps for Ajani, holding up a mountain. I guess he is holiding up bolt - fun fact, bolt (or any Saheeli removal) doesn't stop infinite sun titans as he never gets priority at a good time - I win with lots of titans. No feel bads here, he seemed happy and had an awesome playmat that his GF had made for him.
Take Away - This match up feels good as we have both broken hand emptying draws, combo and value. He couldn't keep up with my threats using 1-1 removal on the whole.
Game 5 - Mindslaver Lock 1-1
Game 1 I'm not really sure what he is playing as it's a bit Janky, he naturally trons on about turn 7 while I ate quite a bit of counter magic. He locks it up and I scoop. Artifact hate in. Game 2 I just have it from turn 1 curving beautifully and running him over, sadly this probably took a bit long. Game 3 I keep an average hand with GQ and use it turn 2 to take his tower. Turn 3 he plays another tower (bugger!) then proceeds to set up tron into a wurmcoil, followed by a batterskull. I get out a pridemage and a saheeli and start wrecking by sacing the copies, eventually land an excavator and turn off tron, steady the board but at this point we have gone to turns. I feel like I would have got him but had to play a sun titan into open blue on my last turn and it eats a manaleak - If I could have waited for him to tap out then I would have had it, and it would have come as he had an empty board, was off tron and I was chipping away for 2 each turn. Ah well. Nice guy, no feel bads here.
Take away - Artifact hate maybe, I felt like this is a good match up, I just lost because I played it like it was U-tron game 1 and it really wasn't!
Game 6 - Jund 0-2
This was the only game that wasn't totally fun, Game 1 I don't really remember what happened, just losing to hand disruption, goyfs and removal (normal Jund stuff). In comes the usual. Game 2 I keep a hand with breeding pool, forest, ghost quarter. We exchange blows and we get to the point where I have to GQ my own forest to get a plains to play anything in my hand. I fail to draw any futher land and get run over by a raging ravine. Nice guy, but we were both a bit tired and fed up losing, and mana screw is never nice to play through. I rush off to the train.
Take Away - probably nothing, these things happen, maybe shouldn't have kept the hand (probably would again!)
Main changes going forward:
Qasali Pridemage - 1 main, 1 side instead of just 1 side.
Tireless Tracker - 1 main (min), instead of 1 side
Sun Titan - always in the main for me (as a 1)
Eternal Witness moved to board
Adding a 1 of Kessig Wolf Run to the main
Nissa was good when I saw her, I'll be leaving her in.
Lotus Cobra is broken - 2 is correct here
Finally, I am going to be trying out replacing all evolutions for Fauna Shaman. Evolution is rocking, but more often than not yesterday, I either couldn't stick a creature to evolve (of the correct CMC), sac a creature into counter magic (best avoided but sometimes you just got to go for it) and getting locked out by Grafdigger's (literally everyone seems to play it and because we interact with the GY it gets boarded in). Not sure this is right, probably not, but got to be worth a try!
Clue is not a name that can be named with pithing needle FYI
Clue is not a name that can be named with pithing needle FYI
Judge!
(You can't name clue as it's not a card. Weirdly, in the future if there is a card named clue then you will be able to do this and stop clue tokens. Probably wouldn't have changed the game as it still requires luck to get a useful card. But, damn.)
Won the PPTQ yesterday! 6-0-1 (excluding an ID and a bye) over the event. Right before the event I swapped the Township for an Arid Mesa in the main, and went -1 Kataki, -1 Dusk/Dawn for 1 Blood Moon, 1 Damping Matrix in the board. The deck is quite resilient, and I overcame a number of bad matchups on the way to claiming the RPTQ invite.
Hey Siefer Would you maybe make a sideboard guide for your version? I picked it up and am loving it, but sometimes I just dont know what to side in with certain matchups.
Hey folks, sorry for the slow response time. I chained Gen Con (happy times) into a dead computer (sad times).
@Shelldell, I favor the proactive plan in scenarios. We're mostly sorcery speed as it is, and I'd rather use our explosiveness to get out in front. I'd rather not Evo into Forge-Tender, but I will if it secures a winning board. Lightbringer isn't great against Jund, merely good. Confidant, Liliana, and Olivia are all must answers.
@BanjoCaveman, I shouldn't have said that I'd never Evo for Rallier. It's just not often our best line. Often getting Guardian and flickering Oath is superior, for example. I agree Evo->Voice->Rallier->Voice is a line that needs to be kept in mind. Putting 6 power into play for 3 mana isn't nothing. I think Eidolon's strength against Storm and Living End is enough to warrant the board slot.
@maniospas, The Evo->Witness->Guardian line can be potent, but it doesn't quite replace what Sun Titan can do. For example, it's much less threatening if you don't have access to both Guardian and Saheeli. Many decks struggle to deal with Sun Titan once it lands. I've really enjoyed having access to both Titan and Witness in the main. I don't have a good intuition on the Trinket Mage package, but I'll toy around with it.
I'll work out a more comprehensive sideboard guide soonish.
- Restoration Angel and Wall of Omens is not good in this list?
- Just one red fountain seems enough? Like to play at least 2
- How is working the Angel of Sanctions and Lotus Cobra? Like it in the paper, but not sure about this cards
Edit: After reading all the threat, just buy 2 copies of Lotus Cobra. Will start to tune the list.
If those questions were aimed at my list (or not, this might help anyway), then here are my thoughts...
Restoration angel does work nicely with our blink effects, but it doesn't work to combo - running more than 4x4 mana blink effect feels clunky as anything. I don't play walls, but have picked up a set to try. They stick around, blink nicely and evolve well.. I see no reason that they won't be in the 'best' list, but I prefer more aggressive opening plays - getting in with voice and co. means they need to answer. This means we can combo better. They can ignore the wall and hold up whatever they want to answer us.
One fountain is fine, I rarely have to pay red from land for saheeli with birds, cobras and Oaths (so I rarely even fetch it, let alone worry about it getting quartered).
Cobra is broken with rallier and fetches. It's possible to go t1 dork, t2 cobra, play fetch, crack it, play rallier, return fetch, crack it, play saheeli, copy rallier, bring back fetch, crack it, maybe evolve into cat or just another threat, swing in with token rallier.
Angel of Sanctions only comes out about 1 in 4 games at most even with evolution around. But it does give a mainboard answer to anything which isn't to be ignored. Not everyone plays it though and you may get more mileage from a thragtusk or something depending on your local meta.
Hi all, I posted on this thread a while back when I was trying out the deck, with middling success (several 2-2 FNM finishes, 3-2, 2-3, 2-2-1, and so forth). Nothing better than a 3-2 finish, sadly. (As a point of reference, my Bant Knightfall deck has gone 4-0-1 and 4-1 at the last 2 FNMs.) I've been wanting to pick up the deck again with some improved choices, hopefully, and see if the deck can really hit that next level, or whether I would be better served playing this deck's closest incarnation - Kiki Chord/Evolution - which is doing pretty well these days. Here's the list I've been brewing:
A few questions:
-Why do we only run 3 Eldritch Evolution in the main deck? Is it not efficient enough to run a 4th? It seems like having a 4th out of the SB for silver bullets would be worthwhile.
-Why are no lists running Kessig Wolf Run? I know it is easy for me to say coming from Bant Knightfall with KotR, but the colors aren't an issue (we have multiple fetches for our Stomping Ground, plus BoP) and it gives extra push and an additional win-con.
@TheoryCraft
Hello and nice seeing you back.
Trying to answer your questions:
- Evolution is a card you are happy seeing most of the time, but it does not always net relevant value and can get countered. Most importantly though, a hand like creature + 2 evolutions is horrible if the creature gets removed. Essentially 3-ofs in deckbuilding represent cards we are happy seeing but not want to draw in multiples in the first turns.
- Regarding the 4th copy in the sideboard, I'm too skeptical. (I have previously argued that) Tutoring hate creatures is worhwhile only if they are so crippling and unanswerable we win the game on the spot. Otherwise, we are often getting 2-for-1ed. Since, in general, creatures are not that good haters (except maybe for Eidolon of Rhetoric and occasionally Magus of the Moon), this is not a strategy I would be happy counting on - I'd much rather play another hate piece for the worst matchup in my metagame instead.
- Personally, I find Wolf Run to be superior to township, since it instantly de-clogs the board towards victory, so I agree with running it. (I'm not THE expert for the deck, but have enough matches under my belt to safely state that whenever I tried building with township I wished it was wolf-run).
Concerning your list, here are my 3-cents:
1. A 4th Guardian is absolutely necessary. If you must dilute the combo, remove a Saheeli first - 3 Saheelis (how do you spell that?) is my sideboard strategy versus thoughtseize decks (e.g. JDS). However, do try and play the full 8 combo pieces at all times maindeck, because the combo is the main reason this deck wins most of the time.
2. Given the above, you are left with one flex slot, which people usually try to fill with acceleration, with Lotus Cobra and a 2nd Renegade Rallier being the more popular choices.
3. A bit different to your build, in the previous page Seifer played this list I think (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/721377#paper) to a 6-0-1 PPTQ finish. His list does not run Walls but is more focused on ramping with Cobras and Ralliers.
Thanks, @maniospas. I will certainly take your points into consideration.
What I'm looking into constructing presently is the "hatiest hate" SB I can think of, that is, a package of silver bullet creatures that can be tutored with Eldritch Evolution to blow out certain strategies. Here is what I have so far:
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric (Storm, Living End)
1x Gaddock Teeg (Chord decks, Storm, ANT, Tron)
1x Izzet Staticaster (any X/1 creature decks like tokens, Pyromancer, DNT, mana dork-based decks)
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence (Chord decks like Knightfall, GWx Vizier)
1x Manglehorn (Affinity, Lantern Control, random Ensnaring Bridge decks)
1x Magus of the Moon (Tron, random greedy mana bases)
1x Reclamation Sage (Affinity, Lantern Control, random Ensnaring Bridge decks, hit random enchantments like Bogles)
1x Scavenging Ooze (GY-based decks)
Thanks everyone for the discussion, been on the deck a few weeks, testing on mtgo. I really like the core you crafted here, went through the additions of 2x lotus cobra, 3x rallier and it comes toghether quite nicely. Now I would consider the core of the deck as:
33 + 22 lands, 5 flex slots. I went with 3x Walls, 1x Finks, 1x Angel of Sanctions for a pptq, went 3-0 and lost first round in top8.
Walls protect saheeli and dig, they work ok but it feels underwhelming to flicker with Felidar. They do the right things just not well engouh.
First I didn't want to get flooded with too many mana dorks, but the T3 wins are worth supporting. I started testing the 4x birds, 2x hierarch versions. In some games I had problems finding Saheeli, as we have 7x Felidars with evolutions, but only oaths to dig for Saheeli, that are often needed for lands.
What do you think about Oath of Jace?
This is what I'm currently testing. Oath of Jace slides nicely into 3cmc for the explosive Cobra into Rallier starts, is blinked by Felidar giving it worthy etb other than Oath of Nissa, scry 1 with Saheeli on the field for Felidar and discards dorks, cobras, lands. I like how it plays so far.
Some thoughts:
Evo into silver bullets / hate cards: I was excited about this too, but after playing I have to agree, that it's mostly not worth it. Best exceptions: Eidolon of Rhetoric against storm, Baloth/Thragtusk against burn, basically cards they can't beat AND we can beat them with our midrange/value plan. If the matchup requires combo, tutoring for soft hate to prolong the game doesn't play into our strength. Evo isn't chord, chord adds, evo replaces, so it has to be worth it.
On the same note, I was looking for a value creature cmc=4 or 5 that would stabilize / catch up on card-adv. when on the mid-range plan, but nothing felt good enough. Huntmaster, Pia and Kiran, Thragtusk just don't do it when we have to sac a creature. I gave up and tried to focus on the combo as the top-end.
Played Soul Sisters on mtgo more often than I would like. What tools do we have? Izzet Staticaster is fine, anything else? (Some do concede with felidar on the stack, forgetting their pray of old, twin matchup ) Combo with Sun Titan still works, too.
Regarding a stabilizing top-end: I agree that the sac req of Evo makes out-grinding harder, but I would be careful about assessing cards strictly as Evo payoff since you will also be finding these stabilizing cards as topdecks with Oath / Saheeli Scry. Topdecked Thragtusk / Titan have won me a bunch of games that I wouldn't have won any other way.
Oath of Jace as a less efficient Oath of Nissa #5-6 is interesting. At 3 CMC it is fighting against other 3 CMC flickerable value creatures such as Finks / Reflector which can protect Saheeli, but I appreciate your point about digging for the combo often being the most direct route to victory. Let us know how your testing goes.
If you are interested in doing more testing I would be curious to try Nissa, Steward of Elements over one Oath of Jace. While not flickerable, the repeatable Scry 2 also helps dig for the combo and the -X works better with your flattened curve. MattsWhat has sworn by her but we haven't gotten any other data yet, which would be useful to tell where she falls between "win-more" and "win-enough".
The MB is essentially Siefer's list except I held off on the Canopies until IMA is out. For now I'm running the 12th fetch and Kessig Wolf Run in the Canopy slots.
Match 1: Grixis Death's Shadow (2-1)
Game 1 I have a crazy stream of Ralliers and Voices. I swing with 2x 6/6 Elemental tokens and Rallier to quickly close out the game. Game 2 he completely dismantles my hand with 4x (Snap) Thoughtseize, I topdeck poorly, and he plays 3x 7/7 Shadows. Dead. Game 3 he mulls to 5. After a bit of grinding I evolve Rallier into Angel of Sanctions, then next turn I copy the Angel with Saheeli, attack for lethal. In: 1 Lightcaster, 1 Sigarda // Out: 2 Hierarch I probably should've brought in the Blood Moon package, but it worked out. Overall this feels at least even, if not favored.
Match 2: GR Ponza (1-2)
Game 1 I start with a hand of Saheeli, dork, and misc value. Since I just see an Arbor elf on the board I try to run out a T2 Saheeli. The opponent landed a T3(?) Stormbreath Dragon, and promptly flew it into Saheeli. I draw Path but can't do anything to stop the Dragon and quickly die. Game 2 I have a nutty start, which went T1 Hierarch, T2 Cobra -> Rallier -> Saheeli. I drew Thragtusk, played it, copied it with Saheeli, and quickly closed the game with value beats. Game 3 I keep a 1 land hand with Oath and Dork. He gets a T2 Bonfire and wipes out my dork. I play a few more dorks and they get hit by Anger of the Gods. I get stuck with just Stomping Ground and Temple Garden and an unplayable hand of 2x Saheeli, Cat, Rallier, and something else. In: 2 Forge-Tender, 1 Staticaster // Out: 3 Voice Is Staticaster the right choice here? I'm generally unsure of how to approach this matchup.
Match 3: Bant Eldrazi (1-2)
Game 1 is a slow grind until I'm overwhelmed. I take his Smasher with Angel of Sanctions, but it's not enough. I attempt to combo off twice and each one is Path'd. Game 2 I develop a decent board with Voice, dorks, & Saheeli. I Path his Drowner, E-Wit the Path back, and take out his Smasher. I copy Voice before attempting to combo off, and when he dismembers Felidar I get two Elementals. These Elementals, combined with E-Wit, quickly chip in for lethal. Game 3 was a bit of a blur, but I kept a ramp-heavy hand with Felidar and ultimately got beat down by an Exalted Displacer later backed up by a Drowner. I shouldn't have kept a hand without a good blink target for Felidar. In: 1 Blood Moon, 1 Magus of the Moon // Out: 2 Hierarch, 1 Path
Match 4: UW Control (0-2)
Both games I kept OK hands with ramp, 1+ combo piece, and some value.. but it was pretty bad. He had more than enough answers for all of my cards between Cryptic / Verdict / Snap / Revelation. My budget choice of Kessig Wolf Run actually came in pretty handy, as it buffed both a Bird and later a lone Rallier for some extra damage even after nothing else would stick. Saheeli surprised me by doing alright here, even outside of the combo, by steadily ticking up to ping and sending extra lands to the bottom. Nevertheless I was slowly ground out. Toward the end I got tired and made a few really stupid misplays, like forgetting that Ooze could eat my own dead Verdict'd creatures >.<; I'm not sure that this would've turned the game around but there's definitely room to play better next time. In: 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Ooze, 1 Sigarda // Out: 2 Hierarch, 1 Path
Final record 1-3. I'm not disappointed, I had a lot of fun and it felt like with a bit more optimization to play lines and sideboarding I'd have a solid chance in all of my matches except perhaps UW control. While I heard a few playful snickers along the lines of "Bad Twin", some of the more explosive openers and interesting value plays were rewarded by open mouths and begrudging nods of approval. Nobody really knew exactly how to play or SB against the deck, so that's a plus.
The overall meta for the store is quite heavy on midrange / big mana (Grixis Shadow, Flayer Junk, Bant Eldrazi, GR Ponza, ?? Tron), with some control (UW Control, Lantern, 8-Rack), a little combo (Gifts Storm, Scapeshift), and relatively little aggro (1x Burn).
Any suggestions on either the matchups listed or generally tuning the deck to that meta? I'm thinking of cutting the SB Evo + Staticaster, and maybe Kataki, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, or 1 Forge-Tender for another Gaddock Teeg and maybe Thrun and/or Tireless Tracker. It might even be worth trimming one MB Hierarch since I boarded that out so much against grindy decks. There weren't any times that I could just drag race and run the combo out to steal wins -- in fact I didn't successfully combo off once the entire night despite going for it multiple times in each match. I'm not sure yet to what extent this is a problem, highlighting the dangers of trying to jam a sorcery speed creature-based combo deck in such an interactive meta vs. how much it's still helping by drawing attention away from the value plan.
@shelldell
In regards to the interaction with combo, I thought about it a lot, too. When opponents leave open mana for obvious answers, I feel like I can't just not go for it. Best alternative we have is casting Voice instead, wasting 2 mana to opponent's 1 (path/dismember) and passing the turn. Leaving open 1 mana is too easy for opponents. The build-in defense is always go for it, if they answer it they wasted removal for a 1/4 and we fall back on the value plan.
On the other hand, we have the "I win" button that we can topdeck. I won a good number of games I was playing just to play it out (I tend to make them have it, not eager to concede), not expecting to win at all. Also winning on a mulligan to 4 and such. I think in modern you have to do something unfair, not even to "keep them honest", just to compete.
In my pptq I can't remember how often I attempted the combo, not many, won 2 games with it (in 4 rounds playing), +1 that I would probably win regardless. Online the combo wins are much more common, maybe the wider field.
Control is a bad matchup. Especially if they have pressure. We get punished for being midrange and also for playing 4 mana 1/4s. Saheeli often survives, so we have the ability to topdeck into the combo if the game goes really long and they run out of answers, but it's tough.
As for the sideboard I can't say much, I'm far from having it figured out. I don't run the 4th evo, sometimes even side some out against counterspells or jund/abzan that can keep our board under control. I wouldn't cut Staticaster, it comes in a lot. I liked the idea of Cataclysmic Gearhulk, didn't try it as I don't have any, but if you want to cut it don't forget enchantment hate, it's the only card in your list that touches those. I prefer Reclamation Sage to Manglehorn. Second Gaddock Teeg seems very good to me, but I'm yet to buy the first one, so don't know if you have the spot.
It doesn't seem like we are in the market for combo protection per se, but there is Grand Abolisher. More fitting then the traditional Spellskite or Silence.
About the number of manadorks, I wanted to bring that up, too:
@maniospas
would you run the 4-1-1 split even without the 7th+ accelerant? My thought was 4x birds 2x cobra as baseline for more mid-range version, with the option to go straight for +2 hierarch for faster variant. I like cobra in the deck too much to run a single copy.
Should it always be at least 5x 1cmc manadorks for the probability of T1?
I tested the version I posted minus 1 land + Nissa, Steward of Elements, just to get a feel for both 2x Oath of Jace and Nissa. The land wasn't a problem with the curve and dorks + Ralliers.
First off, the Nissa. I dissmissed her at first, it reads like complete do-nothing, with the 0 being able to miss. I tried her without much expectation, but I have to say, dropping her for 3 mana, especially T2 is great. That's when the scry 2 does a lot. After getting to 4 loyality, the 0 ability hits pretty well and has synergies with the rest of the deck. Dropping her later is less impressive, as the scry 2 is worse. I won a game by flipping Guardian with Saheeli in play. I had a crazy turn just by flipping land into play with cobra on the battlefield, giving me mana for chain of blinking oaths and renegades. I think the 0 ability needs support, by herself with +2 setting up the 0 is just not enough. I wouldn't dismiss her as "win-more" yet, but it didn't convince me as must have. I guess I don't see a great slot for her. Early game we have planty of plays, later the Thragtusk and Titan do better jobs.
Mainly what happened was on one side, more fast combo wins, but on the other these games where I accelerated into nothing. The kind of hands with some birds > cobra > fetch > rallier and than having 1 card in hand with opponent on 5 cards and just lose. I can see how having the Titan and Thragtusk as top end for the fair value plan is needed. It certainly gives the Rallier reccuring lands more value, as opposed to in a deck that ends on 4cmc. So I went back, added the Titan and Thragtusk.
Next thing I noticed was how often I just sit on Evolution and spots with Guardian + free Evolution, I really wanted to go back to running Kiki. Why was it cut across the board here in the thread? the mana cost and getting stuck in hand?
One more thing I'm trying at the moment: Garruk Relentless. Removes smaller utility creatures, clogs the board and -1 is almost evolution. Seems like a lot the deck would want. Just playing with flex slots
I agree that we aren't really in the market for a combo protector unless it significantly advances our value plan as well. Abolisher doesn't really do enough there, IMO. Better to focus on card draw and filtering (such as Oath of Jace etc) to set up a second combo attempt after they've exhausted their resources.
On that note... one other thing I forgot to mention from last night was that I had several times where I got hit by a sweeper (Verdict/Anger) and then had to just play a target-less Felidar Guardian. I guess it puts the opponent on their toes since you technically have half the combo down, but from a value standpoint playing a 1/4 feels pretty bad. Having 1x Oath of Jace as another hardy flicker target on top of Oath of Nissa definitely looked more attractive after those experiences.
Could you talk any more about how Oath of Jace has performed for you so far?
Regarding Kikki: I haven't tested Kikki personally, but that's my understanding as well. RRR was rough, and one of the advantages of Evo Copycat over Kikki-Chord was supposed to be a much more consistent and painless manabase.
I'm not sure on Garruk outside of an aggro-heavy meta, but I'm curious to hear how it goes. Good luck.
Some considerations those numbers don't necessarily convey: because Cobra doesn't need to tap for mana it's available as a blocker to protect Saheeli, whereas to produce the amount of mana shown above the dorks would have to be tapped. Additionally, Cobra can be evolved into Felidar Guardian, and is overall a marginally better topdeck in terms of attack power.
This deck is maddeningly inconsistent. Went to FNM last week and went 3-2 (again... story of my life), can never seem to get over the top on it.
Match 1: New Player, home brew, doesn't matter (2-0) (1-0)
Match 2: Storm (2-1) (2-0): Game 1: went 2nd and died to T3 Storm nut. Game 2: T1 Birds of Paradise, T2 Eldritch Evolution into Eidolon of Rhetoric, play a Scavenging Ooze as well. Complete lockout. Game 3: literally same as G2, plus I had a Rest in Peace. Total lockout.
Match 3: Affinity (2-1) (3-0): Game 1: went 2nd and died to T3 Affinity nut. G2: T1 dork into T2 evolve into Izzet Staticaster, machine gun the board. G3: Basically the same as G2, though I think it was Cataclysmic Gearhulk first and then follow up with an evolve into Staticaster to lock out the game.
At that point I'm feeling okay at 3-0 with some good wins vs. tough decks (Storm and Affinity), then I get obliterated 0-2 and 0-2 vs. Blue Steel and Jeskai Control. Control decks are a nightmare to play against. I don't know, I feel pretty down on the deck. I can play my other Modern decks (Bant Knightfall, Grixis Aggro) and comfortably get a 4-1, 4-0-1, 5-0 kind of record but this deck I can't break through with a good finish. Sometimes I feel like it is just a worse version of Kiki Chord/Evolution, especially because the combo is harder to play out and plays at sorcery speed. Anyone care to cheer me up about the deck?
@maniospas
In both scenarios you have 5 mana on T3.
hand of: land, land, fetch, rallier and bird/cobra
a) T1 bird, T2 fetch + rallier, T3 you untap, play land, have 5 mana to do whatever
b) T1 land, T2 land + cobra, T3 either fetch and have 5 mana, or fetch + rallier, bring back fetch, trigger cobra again. The rallier is free, just ramps.
T4 is when cobra puts us -1mana if we don't have 3rd land in hand, that is correct. If we have it's +1, if it's a fetch +3.
Both can T3 combo if you have it in hand, Cobra needs a fetch to do it, but you drop both pieces in one turn, birds needs saheeli on T2, Felidar on T3. Like @Shelldell said, the ability to evo into felidar is big as well, with saheeli + Evo cobra gives us all the mana and outlet, too.
Anyway, I didn't necessarily want to compere the two, they are not interchangable. I will be playing 5x 1cmc dorks now, sounds like a good compromise, will see what that does.
There is Djeru, With Eyes Open, but Thalia's Lancers have better stats. idk, still not too exciting, as it announces a sorcery speed combo I'm gonna play next turn. 4/4 is outclassed very fast at 5 mana, not like it would put them under much pressure. Evo into this into Saheeli is only 6 mana, that is something, and as I would prefer to Evo into Kiki anyway, maybe this isn't that far off. Also, it can stack Saheelis in hand when copied (Djeru is a legend). wait, it can set up Sun Titan combo and be evo-ed into Titan. hm, intriguing.
@Shelldell
Yeah, the blink from Guardian is mainly why I wanted Oath of Jace. It works fine, just kind of exactly what you would expect it would do. Saheeli tends to live a good amount, so the scry from the Oath is live more often than I expected. It's the reverse of Nissa, in that playing Oath of Jace on T2/3 is a waste, 3 mana is too much to keep a hand you hope to fix with it brainstorm-style. We need to develop a board early. Droping it with 1-2 cards in hand is very good, it's a draw 3 after all. I tend to keep a fetch in play for rallier/cobra, so keeping it in hand instead was fine, not playing a late-game dork if irrelevant, all you need is 1 card in hand to make the "discard 2" not matter. It draws a Path unlike Oath of Nissa. We are not 1-for-1 type of deck, so I would always draw 3, figure out the line, be it combo, value or removal and discard the rest, even with 0 cards in hand it's doable. Discarding Voice for Rallier or keeping Titan, we have uses for graveyard, too.
The only downside is it's another miss for Oath of Nissa, but as a 1of that shouldn't matter. At 3 mana it is expensive, but it makes the sad 1/4 for 4 much more relevant.
With your solid list, the 1of wouldn't do damage, I just put in on a back burner while trying more things for fun, Oath of Jace is one of the best that isn't in the deck, yet. If you would like to try it, maybe cut from the top of the curve, although not even sure what. Is there something you are looking to cut? Angel and 2nd Hierarch are my personal preferences, but wouldn't argue over it at all.
Actually, you are also kinda losing the ability to play voice T2 if things don't align well.
What does this mean? I don't want to go into too much theory-crafting situations on paper, it's not that productive, but:
T1: birds, T2: voice + 1 mana, T3: 4 mana
T1: +1 mana, T2: voice, T3: cobra, fetch: 3 mana
what do you lose? I actualy prefer to play Cobra T3 if I have voice, as betting on it surviving with no value on T2 is risky. most of the deck costs 3 mana or less, so the T3 having 4 mana as opposed to 3 isn't that big of a deal. Highly depends on the rest of the hand, of course.
Again, I'm not saying cobra is better than noble, they do different things. I think of them separate (my bad for grouping them in a discussion, maybe), I want the ideal number of 1cmc dorks to have them reliably, but not topdeck later too much. And then I want the effect that Cobra brings to this deck as a 2of. It has synergies beyond being manadork.
threats: I touched on that when I cut all impactful threats from the deck, not a good idea. How to pack more than the 3-4 we have slots for? The weakest cards in the core of the deck are Rallier and Evo, but they are there for a reason. And then what would be the threats? Goyfs are better in a deck without 3 mana do-nothings and 4 mana 1/4s. If we move the "midrange" plan into "aggro" plan, we don't support combo and we have dead cards in an aggro deck. Maybe try an example of how would the threats look. I wondered if Flickerwisp has a place in this deck, as it has some synergy and packs a punch, but it doesn't sit as well as Rallier.
Quick thoughts about my decklist, and the deck in general:
-The 6 1-mana dorks (4 Birds: 2 Noble) feels just right.
-The 4:2 split of VoR and Finks is also good - they are great midrange creatures, phenomenal evolve fodder, etc.
-I only used to run 1 Rallier, saw people were running 3, ran 3 in my latest list, and agree that it was perfect.
-I hate running 4 Felidar Guardian. Like I really, really do. I've been in numerous games where I'm sitting with multiples as dead cards rotting in my hand. I think I may go down to 2 - or even 1! - and run more impactful cards in its place (swap out 1 for a Restoration Angel, for example).
-Maybe I've had bad variance as of late, but Oath of Nissa has actually been pretty disappointing for me. A lot of the times I just wish it was a more impactful creature. I won't give up on it yet, but yea, it's no longer the set-in-stone card it used to be, in my mind.
-I haven't figured out what other 2-cmc creature to put into the deck to reinforce the Rallier shenanigans. Wall of Omens is okay but a lot of the times it isn't in the GY (opponents attack around it), and even if it does come back it play it is just blind-drawing 1, which is okay but certainly not as degenerate as other strategies in the format. I think running a mainboard Ooze and QPM is probably a good idea. Ooze is usually public enemy #1 against fair/removal-heavy decks, and QPM has a good power curve (2/2 with exalted) for attacking, plus you can blow it up to destroy an artifact or enchantment, and then bring it back later with Rallier.
The deck's biggest weakness I've noticed is the "crutch" of having to play 4 Saheeli and 4 Felidar. Having multiples of either is bad news. I don't mind running extra Saheelis because it has synergy with Sun Titan (namely, having 2 in play or GY + Sun Titan = go infinite and win) and can be a strong stick in play as a PW (damage opponent, scry, copy creature, etc.). But Felidars... just not my thing. I think I may try a 4:1 split of Saheeli and Felidar this FNM and see what happens. And sorry I'm droning on about this, but from the last 2 FNMs I've done (10 total matches, so 20-30 actual games), I've had 0 "combo" kills with Saheeli and Felidar. I have had several kills with Saheeli + Sun Titan, and usually if you land a Sun Titan it is just GG.
Note only 1 Felidar, 3 Saheeli instead of 4, no Oaths... yet. I might just put the 4 in, but I'm still missing spots. This is assuming 22 lands, of course. I like to run a 1-of the utility lands: Gavony, Canopy, Kessig, and Ghost Quarter.
I've been playing Seifer's list and have been able to 4-1 a few times on MTGO, the lack of 5-0s tend to be my fault or getting blown out by like Grishoalbrand T2. (Also I get really bad anxiety when I play for money online for some reason so my play is never crisp)
I've learned that playing this deck takes a lot of mature play, like for example I had a board stall vs knightfall, I had the combo but they were obviously holding up path, so I felidar'd E-Witt instead to get another use of path to exile that was in the yard, and just kept essentially trying to value them out, and ended up wining with sun titans on like turn 15.
Also playing 4 felidar is a big part of what makes this deck work, pretty much everything you have has an ETB trigger, and playing it for value is great, being able to blink a rallier to get a hate bear or ramp, or oath to dig more. If you include only 1 felidar then I think you would need to reconfigure the deck immensely since one Felidar dies, the combo is probably dead, also you lose a lot of value generation from flicker effects.
Personally for your list I really don't like walls, I remember trying them in May and they never felt great, just felt like I was durdling trying to find the combo. Are you playing Horizon Canopies in your manabase? They have been a great addition having two of those to recur to dig is a lot more useful than an 0/4 for 2. Also I know we are in white and its considered "Sideboard Tax" but rip does a lot more harm than good in this deck, it cuts off Rallier, Finks, and Sun Titan.
This was tried way back when the deck was first being worked on. The issue is that the deck doesn't run a lot of blue sources to start with (I run 1). Wall of Omens is better than coiling oracle in this deck. I still personally believe that horizon canopy is the best card draw effect the deck has access to beyond Oath if Nissa.
I also think that revealing cards is a deceptively large downside in terms of forecasting the arrival of the combo. Similarly, this "reveal" caveat has turned my affection for Oath of Nissa slightly bittersweet, but overall I'm still happy to be running it.
That's really awesome, and seeing you persevere against so many tough match-ups has encouraged me to get the rest of the cards I need to build the physical deck and get out to events. Stay tuned
It looks like for GR Titanshift you advocate a more proactive / tap-out approach of putting down Blood Moon effects and Forge-Tender and then attempting to race rather than holding up mana for Unified Will, is that correct? It certainly matches the cadence of the rest of the deck better.
And I assume you're just hoping to start with or draw into Forge-Tender and never Evo for her? Evo-ing for a 1-drop obviously doesn't feel great.
Maybe a silly question, but does Jund run enough black permanents to make Devout Lightcaster's ETB exile a consistent enough payoff? 4x Bob + 4x Liliana, maybe Olivia? If you keep running into Jund (still weird seeing this as an oddity) I wonder if Miran Crusader would be better here over Lightcaster.
Just a couple thoughts:
First, I really like having the 4th Evo in the board to be another bullet in matchups where 1 or 2 creatures are showstoppers. But I can understand the squeeze of the SB.
You say you never tutor rallier, but Voice -> rallier -> Voice is one of my default Evo plans. I basically love to get it whenever Voice is good.
I haven't really found Jund to be that hard (although the sample size is small, as you were alluding to). I do have 2 Finks MB/SB though, as well as 2 relic right now. But the Voice plan is just too strong, and Sigarda is unstoppable.
Lastly, how has Eidolon felt for you? I used to have one but felt that it wasn't pulling its weight. I guess I'm relying on Teeg/relic for Storm/Living End.
Forge-Tender and the moon effects are interesting, and I might have to give them a try.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
Clue is not a name that can be named with pithing needle FYI
Judge!
(You can't name clue as it's not a card. Weirdly, in the future if there is a card named clue then you will be able to do this and stop clue tokens. Probably wouldn't have changed the game as it still requires luck to get a useful card. But, damn.)
Hey Siefer Would you maybe make a sideboard guide for your version? I picked it up and am loving it, but sometimes I just dont know what to side in with certain matchups.
@Shelldell, I favor the proactive plan in scenarios. We're mostly sorcery speed as it is, and I'd rather use our explosiveness to get out in front. I'd rather not Evo into Forge-Tender, but I will if it secures a winning board. Lightbringer isn't great against Jund, merely good. Confidant, Liliana, and Olivia are all must answers.
@BanjoCaveman, I shouldn't have said that I'd never Evo for Rallier. It's just not often our best line. Often getting Guardian and flickering Oath is superior, for example. I agree Evo->Voice->Rallier->Voice is a line that needs to be kept in mind. Putting 6 power into play for 3 mana isn't nothing. I think Eidolon's strength against Storm and Living End is enough to warrant the board slot.
@maniospas, The Evo->Witness->Guardian line can be potent, but it doesn't quite replace what Sun Titan can do. For example, it's much less threatening if you don't have access to both Guardian and Saheeli. Many decks struggle to deal with Sun Titan once it lands. I've really enjoyed having access to both Titan and Witness in the main. I don't have a good intuition on the Trinket Mage package, but I'll toy around with it.
I'll work out a more comprehensive sideboard guide soonish.
If those questions were aimed at my list (or not, this might help anyway), then here are my thoughts...
Restoration angel does work nicely with our blink effects, but it doesn't work to combo - running more than 4x4 mana blink effect feels clunky as anything. I don't play walls, but have picked up a set to try. They stick around, blink nicely and evolve well.. I see no reason that they won't be in the 'best' list, but I prefer more aggressive opening plays - getting in with voice and co. means they need to answer. This means we can combo better. They can ignore the wall and hold up whatever they want to answer us.
One fountain is fine, I rarely have to pay red from land for saheeli with birds, cobras and Oaths (so I rarely even fetch it, let alone worry about it getting quartered).
Cobra is broken with rallier and fetches. It's possible to go t1 dork, t2 cobra, play fetch, crack it, play rallier, return fetch, crack it, play saheeli, copy rallier, bring back fetch, crack it, maybe evolve into cat or just another threat, swing in with token rallier.
Angel of Sanctions only comes out about 1 in 4 games at most even with evolution around. But it does give a mainboard answer to anything which isn't to be ignored. Not everyone plays it though and you may get more mileage from a thragtusk or something depending on your local meta.
Creatures (23)
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Omens
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Eternal Witness
3 Felidar Guardian
1 Angel of Sanctions
1 Sun Titan
2 FLEX SPOTS FOR ??? (3rd Noble, 2nd Rallier, Resto+Kiki, Reflector, P&KN)
Non-Creature Spells (15)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Path to Exile
3 Eldritch Evolution
Lands (22)
SB - forthcoming
A few questions:
-Why do we only run 3 Eldritch Evolution in the main deck? Is it not efficient enough to run a 4th? It seems like having a 4th out of the SB for silver bullets would be worthwhile.
-Why are no lists running Kessig Wolf Run? I know it is easy for me to say coming from Bant Knightfall with KotR, but the colors aren't an issue (we have multiple fetches for our Stomping Ground, plus BoP) and it gives extra push and an additional win-con.
Thanks, @maniospas. I will certainly take your points into consideration.
What I'm looking into constructing presently is the "hatiest hate" SB I can think of, that is, a package of silver bullet creatures that can be tutored with Eldritch Evolution to blow out certain strategies. Here is what I have so far:
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric (Storm, Living End)
1x Gaddock Teeg (Chord decks, Storm, ANT, Tron)
1x Izzet Staticaster (any X/1 creature decks like tokens, Pyromancer, DNT, mana dork-based decks)
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence (Chord decks like Knightfall, GWx Vizier)
1x Manglehorn (Affinity, Lantern Control, random Ensnaring Bridge decks)
1x Magus of the Moon (Tron, random greedy mana bases)
1x Reclamation Sage (Affinity, Lantern Control, random Ensnaring Bridge decks, hit random enchantments like Bogles)
1x Scavenging Ooze (GY-based decks)
That puts us at 8. Other candidates I can think of off-hand include Kataki, War's Wage (never tested it before), Burrenton Forge-Tender, Phyrexian Revoker, and Reflector Mage. Any other tutorable creatures people can think of that would fit into a silver bullet package?
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Lotus Cobra
3x Renegade Rallier
1x Eternal Witness
4x Felidar Guardian
4x Path to Exile
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Eldritch Evolution
33 + 22 lands, 5 flex slots. I went with 3x Walls, 1x Finks, 1x Angel of Sanctions for a pptq, went 3-0 and lost first round in top8.
Walls protect saheeli and dig, they work ok but it feels underwhelming to flicker with Felidar. They do the right things just not well engouh.
First I didn't want to get flooded with too many mana dorks, but the T3 wins are worth supporting. I started testing the 4x birds, 2x hierarch versions. In some games I had problems finding Saheeli, as we have 7x Felidars with evolutions, but only oaths to dig for Saheeli, that are often needed for lands.
What do you think about Oath of Jace?
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Renegade Rallier
1x Eternal Witness
4x Felidar Guardian
4x Saheeli Rai
2x Oath of Jace
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Path to Exile
3x Eldritch Evolution
Lands (22)
1x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Forest
2x Plains
This is what I'm currently testing. Oath of Jace slides nicely into 3cmc for the explosive Cobra into Rallier starts, is blinked by Felidar giving it worthy etb other than Oath of Nissa, scry 1 with Saheeli on the field for Felidar and discards dorks, cobras, lands. I like how it plays so far.
Some thoughts:
Oath of Jace as a less efficient Oath of Nissa #5-6 is interesting. At 3 CMC it is fighting against other 3 CMC flickerable value creatures such as Finks / Reflector which can protect Saheeli, but I appreciate your point about digging for the combo often being the most direct route to victory. Let us know how your testing goes.
If you are interested in doing more testing I would be curious to try Nissa, Steward of Elements over one Oath of Jace. While not flickerable, the repeatable Scry 2 also helps dig for the combo and the -X works better with your flattened curve. MattsWhat has sworn by her but we haven't gotten any other data yet, which would be useful to tell where she falls between "win-more" and "win-enough".
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
2x Lotus Cobra
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Eternal Witness
3x Renegade Rallier
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Angel of Sanctions
1x Thragtusk
1x Sun Titan
Spell (15)
4x Path to Exile
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Eldritch Evolution
4x Saheeli Rai
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Stony Silence
1x Blood Moon
1x Devout Lightcaster
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Manglehorn
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
Match 1: Grixis Death's Shadow (2-1)
Game 1 I have a crazy stream of Ralliers and Voices. I swing with 2x 6/6 Elemental tokens and Rallier to quickly close out the game. Game 2 he completely dismantles my hand with 4x (Snap) Thoughtseize, I topdeck poorly, and he plays 3x 7/7 Shadows. Dead. Game 3 he mulls to 5. After a bit of grinding I evolve Rallier into Angel of Sanctions, then next turn I copy the Angel with Saheeli, attack for lethal.
In: 1 Lightcaster, 1 Sigarda // Out: 2 Hierarch
I probably should've brought in the Blood Moon package, but it worked out. Overall this feels at least even, if not favored.
Match 2: GR Ponza (1-2)
Game 1 I start with a hand of Saheeli, dork, and misc value. Since I just see an Arbor elf on the board I try to run out a T2 Saheeli. The opponent landed a T3(?) Stormbreath Dragon, and promptly flew it into Saheeli. I draw Path but can't do anything to stop the Dragon and quickly die. Game 2 I have a nutty start, which went T1 Hierarch, T2 Cobra -> Rallier -> Saheeli. I drew Thragtusk, played it, copied it with Saheeli, and quickly closed the game with value beats. Game 3 I keep a 1 land hand with Oath and Dork. He gets a T2 Bonfire and wipes out my dork. I play a few more dorks and they get hit by Anger of the Gods. I get stuck with just Stomping Ground and Temple Garden and an unplayable hand of 2x Saheeli, Cat, Rallier, and something else.
In: 2 Forge-Tender, 1 Staticaster // Out: 3 Voice
Is Staticaster the right choice here? I'm generally unsure of how to approach this matchup.
Match 3: Bant Eldrazi (1-2)
Game 1 is a slow grind until I'm overwhelmed. I take his Smasher with Angel of Sanctions, but it's not enough. I attempt to combo off twice and each one is Path'd. Game 2 I develop a decent board with Voice, dorks, & Saheeli. I Path his Drowner, E-Wit the Path back, and take out his Smasher. I copy Voice before attempting to combo off, and when he dismembers Felidar I get two Elementals. These Elementals, combined with E-Wit, quickly chip in for lethal. Game 3 was a bit of a blur, but I kept a ramp-heavy hand with Felidar and ultimately got beat down by an Exalted Displacer later backed up by a Drowner. I shouldn't have kept a hand without a good blink target for Felidar.
In: 1 Blood Moon, 1 Magus of the Moon // Out: 2 Hierarch, 1 Path
Match 4: UW Control (0-2)
Both games I kept OK hands with ramp, 1+ combo piece, and some value.. but it was pretty bad. He had more than enough answers for all of my cards between Cryptic / Verdict / Snap / Revelation. My budget choice of Kessig Wolf Run actually came in pretty handy, as it buffed both a Bird and later a lone Rallier for some extra damage even after nothing else would stick. Saheeli surprised me by doing alright here, even outside of the combo, by steadily ticking up to ping and sending extra lands to the bottom. Nevertheless I was slowly ground out. Toward the end I got tired and made a few really stupid misplays, like forgetting that Ooze could eat my own dead Verdict'd creatures >.<; I'm not sure that this would've turned the game around but there's definitely room to play better next time.
In: 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Ooze, 1 Sigarda // Out: 2 Hierarch, 1 Path
Final record 1-3. I'm not disappointed, I had a lot of fun and it felt like with a bit more optimization to play lines and sideboarding I'd have a solid chance in all of my matches except perhaps UW control. While I heard a few playful snickers along the lines of "Bad Twin", some of the more explosive openers and interesting value plays were rewarded by open mouths and begrudging nods of approval. Nobody really knew exactly how to play or SB against the deck, so that's a plus.
The overall meta for the store is quite heavy on midrange / big mana (Grixis Shadow, Flayer Junk, Bant Eldrazi, GR Ponza, ?? Tron), with some control (UW Control, Lantern, 8-Rack), a little combo (Gifts Storm, Scapeshift), and relatively little aggro (1x Burn).
Any suggestions on either the matchups listed or generally tuning the deck to that meta? I'm thinking of cutting the SB Evo + Staticaster, and maybe Kataki, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, or 1 Forge-Tender for another Gaddock Teeg and maybe Thrun and/or Tireless Tracker. It might even be worth trimming one MB Hierarch since I boarded that out so much against grindy decks. There weren't any times that I could just drag race and run the combo out to steal wins -- in fact I didn't successfully combo off once the entire night despite going for it multiple times in each match. I'm not sure yet to what extent this is a problem, highlighting the dangers of trying to jam a sorcery speed creature-based combo deck in such an interactive meta vs. how much it's still helping by drawing attention away from the value plan.
In regards to the interaction with combo, I thought about it a lot, too. When opponents leave open mana for obvious answers, I feel like I can't just not go for it. Best alternative we have is casting Voice instead, wasting 2 mana to opponent's 1 (path/dismember) and passing the turn. Leaving open 1 mana is too easy for opponents. The build-in defense is always go for it, if they answer it they wasted removal for a 1/4 and we fall back on the value plan.
On the other hand, we have the "I win" button that we can topdeck. I won a good number of games I was playing just to play it out (I tend to make them have it, not eager to concede), not expecting to win at all. Also winning on a mulligan to 4 and such. I think in modern you have to do something unfair, not even to "keep them honest", just to compete.
In my pptq I can't remember how often I attempted the combo, not many, won 2 games with it (in 4 rounds playing), +1 that I would probably win regardless. Online the combo wins are much more common, maybe the wider field.
Control is a bad matchup. Especially if they have pressure. We get punished for being midrange and also for playing 4 mana 1/4s. Saheeli often survives, so we have the ability to topdeck into the combo if the game goes really long and they run out of answers, but it's tough.
As for the sideboard I can't say much, I'm far from having it figured out. I don't run the 4th evo, sometimes even side some out against counterspells or jund/abzan that can keep our board under control. I wouldn't cut Staticaster, it comes in a lot. I liked the idea of Cataclysmic Gearhulk, didn't try it as I don't have any, but if you want to cut it don't forget enchantment hate, it's the only card in your list that touches those. I prefer Reclamation Sage to Manglehorn. Second Gaddock Teeg seems very good to me, but I'm yet to buy the first one, so don't know if you have the spot.
It doesn't seem like we are in the market for combo protection per se, but there is Grand Abolisher. More fitting then the traditional Spellskite or Silence.
About the number of manadorks, I wanted to bring that up, too:
@maniospas
would you run the 4-1-1 split even without the 7th+ accelerant? My thought was 4x birds 2x cobra as baseline for more mid-range version, with the option to go straight for +2 hierarch for faster variant. I like cobra in the deck too much to run a single copy.
Should it always be at least 5x 1cmc manadorks for the probability of T1?
I tested the version I posted minus 1 land + Nissa, Steward of Elements, just to get a feel for both 2x Oath of Jace and Nissa. The land wasn't a problem with the curve and dorks + Ralliers.
First off, the Nissa. I dissmissed her at first, it reads like complete do-nothing, with the 0 being able to miss. I tried her without much expectation, but I have to say, dropping her for 3 mana, especially T2 is great. That's when the scry 2 does a lot. After getting to 4 loyality, the 0 ability hits pretty well and has synergies with the rest of the deck. Dropping her later is less impressive, as the scry 2 is worse. I won a game by flipping Guardian with Saheeli in play. I had a crazy turn just by flipping land into play with cobra on the battlefield, giving me mana for chain of blinking oaths and renegades. I think the 0 ability needs support, by herself with +2 setting up the 0 is just not enough. I wouldn't dismiss her as "win-more" yet, but it didn't convince me as must have. I guess I don't see a great slot for her. Early game we have planty of plays, later the Thragtusk and Titan do better jobs.
Mainly what happened was on one side, more fast combo wins, but on the other these games where I accelerated into nothing. The kind of hands with some birds > cobra > fetch > rallier and than having 1 card in hand with opponent on 5 cards and just lose. I can see how having the Titan and Thragtusk as top end for the fair value plan is needed. It certainly gives the Rallier reccuring lands more value, as opposed to in a deck that ends on 4cmc. So I went back, added the Titan and Thragtusk.
Next thing I noticed was how often I just sit on Evolution and spots with Guardian + free Evolution, I really wanted to go back to running Kiki. Why was it cut across the board here in the thread? the mana cost and getting stuck in hand?
One more thing I'm trying at the moment: Garruk Relentless. Removes smaller utility creatures, clogs the board and -1 is almost evolution. Seems like a lot the deck would want. Just playing with flex slots
On that note... one other thing I forgot to mention from last night was that I had several times where I got hit by a sweeper (Verdict/Anger) and then had to just play a target-less Felidar Guardian. I guess it puts the opponent on their toes since you technically have half the combo down, but from a value standpoint playing a 1/4 feels pretty bad. Having 1x Oath of Jace as another hardy flicker target on top of Oath of Nissa definitely looked more attractive after those experiences.
Could you talk any more about how Oath of Jace has performed for you so far?
Regarding Kikki: I haven't tested Kikki personally, but that's my understanding as well. RRR was rough, and one of the advantages of Evo Copycat over Kikki-Chord was supposed to be a much more consistent and painless manabase.
I'm not sure on Garruk outside of an aggro-heavy meta, but I'm curious to hear how it goes. Good luck.
Match 1: New Player, home brew, doesn't matter (2-0) (1-0)
Match 2: Storm (2-1) (2-0): Game 1: went 2nd and died to T3 Storm nut. Game 2: T1 Birds of Paradise, T2 Eldritch Evolution into Eidolon of Rhetoric, play a Scavenging Ooze as well. Complete lockout. Game 3: literally same as G2, plus I had a Rest in Peace. Total lockout.
Match 3: Affinity (2-1) (3-0): Game 1: went 2nd and died to T3 Affinity nut. G2: T1 dork into T2 evolve into Izzet Staticaster, machine gun the board. G3: Basically the same as G2, though I think it was Cataclysmic Gearhulk first and then follow up with an evolve into Staticaster to lock out the game.
At that point I'm feeling okay at 3-0 with some good wins vs. tough decks (Storm and Affinity), then I get obliterated 0-2 and 0-2 vs. Blue Steel and Jeskai Control. Control decks are a nightmare to play against. I don't know, I feel pretty down on the deck. I can play my other Modern decks (Bant Knightfall, Grixis Aggro) and comfortably get a 4-1, 4-0-1, 5-0 kind of record but this deck I can't break through with a good finish. Sometimes I feel like it is just a worse version of Kiki Chord/Evolution, especially because the combo is harder to play out and plays at sorcery speed. Anyone care to cheer me up about the deck?
In both scenarios you have 5 mana on T3.
hand of: land, land, fetch, rallier and bird/cobra
a) T1 bird, T2 fetch + rallier, T3 you untap, play land, have 5 mana to do whatever
b) T1 land, T2 land + cobra, T3 either fetch and have 5 mana, or fetch + rallier, bring back fetch, trigger cobra again. The rallier is free, just ramps.
T4 is when cobra puts us -1mana if we don't have 3rd land in hand, that is correct. If we have it's +1, if it's a fetch +3.
Both can T3 combo if you have it in hand, Cobra needs a fetch to do it, but you drop both pieces in one turn, birds needs saheeli on T2, Felidar on T3. Like @Shelldell said, the ability to evo into felidar is big as well, with saheeli + Evo cobra gives us all the mana and outlet, too.
Anyway, I didn't necessarily want to compere the two, they are not interchangable. I will be playing 5x 1cmc dorks now, sounds like a good compromise, will see what that does.
There is Djeru, With Eyes Open, but Thalia's Lancers have better stats. idk, still not too exciting, as it announces a sorcery speed combo I'm gonna play next turn. 4/4 is outclassed very fast at 5 mana, not like it would put them under much pressure. Evo into this into Saheeli is only 6 mana, that is something, and as I would prefer to Evo into Kiki anyway, maybe this isn't that far off. Also, it can stack Saheelis in hand when copied (Djeru is a legend). wait, it can set up Sun Titan combo and be evo-ed into Titan. hm, intriguing.
@Shelldell
Yeah, the blink from Guardian is mainly why I wanted Oath of Jace. It works fine, just kind of exactly what you would expect it would do. Saheeli tends to live a good amount, so the scry from the Oath is live more often than I expected. It's the reverse of Nissa, in that playing Oath of Jace on T2/3 is a waste, 3 mana is too much to keep a hand you hope to fix with it brainstorm-style. We need to develop a board early. Droping it with 1-2 cards in hand is very good, it's a draw 3 after all. I tend to keep a fetch in play for rallier/cobra, so keeping it in hand instead was fine, not playing a late-game dork if irrelevant, all you need is 1 card in hand to make the "discard 2" not matter. It draws a Path unlike Oath of Nissa. We are not 1-for-1 type of deck, so I would always draw 3, figure out the line, be it combo, value or removal and discard the rest, even with 0 cards in hand it's doable. Discarding Voice for Rallier or keeping Titan, we have uses for graveyard, too.
The only downside is it's another miss for Oath of Nissa, but as a 1of that shouldn't matter. At 3 mana it is expensive, but it makes the sad 1/4 for 4 much more relevant.
With your solid list, the 1of wouldn't do damage, I just put in on a back burner while trying more things for fun, Oath of Jace is one of the best that isn't in the deck, yet. If you would like to try it, maybe cut from the top of the curve, although not even sure what. Is there something you are looking to cut? Angel and 2nd Hierarch are my personal preferences, but wouldn't argue over it at all.
What does this mean? I don't want to go into too much theory-crafting situations on paper, it's not that productive, but:
T1: birds, T2: voice + 1 mana, T3: 4 mana
T1: +1 mana, T2: voice, T3: cobra, fetch: 3 mana
what do you lose? I actualy prefer to play Cobra T3 if I have voice, as betting on it surviving with no value on T2 is risky. most of the deck costs 3 mana or less, so the T3 having 4 mana as opposed to 3 isn't that big of a deal. Highly depends on the rest of the hand, of course.
Again, I'm not saying cobra is better than noble, they do different things. I think of them separate (my bad for grouping them in a discussion, maybe), I want the ideal number of 1cmc dorks to have them reliably, but not topdeck later too much. And then I want the effect that Cobra brings to this deck as a 2of. It has synergies beyond being manadork.
threats: I touched on that when I cut all impactful threats from the deck, not a good idea. How to pack more than the 3-4 we have slots for? The weakest cards in the core of the deck are Rallier and Evo, but they are there for a reason. And then what would be the threats? Goyfs are better in a deck without 3 mana do-nothings and 4 mana 1/4s. If we move the "midrange" plan into "aggro" plan, we don't support combo and we have dead cards in an aggro deck. Maybe try an example of how would the threats look. I wondered if Flickerwisp has a place in this deck, as it has some synergy and packs a punch, but it doesn't sit as well as Rallier.
Here is the list I ran at the FNM, going off of memory:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Omens
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Angel of Sanctions
1 Sun Titan
4 Path to Exile
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
3 Eldritch Evolution
22 lands
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Manglehorn
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Rest in Piece
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stony Silence
Quick thoughts about my decklist, and the deck in general:
-The 6 1-mana dorks (4 Birds: 2 Noble) feels just right.
-The 4:2 split of VoR and Finks is also good - they are great midrange creatures, phenomenal evolve fodder, etc.
-I only used to run 1 Rallier, saw people were running 3, ran 3 in my latest list, and agree that it was perfect.
-I hate running 4 Felidar Guardian. Like I really, really do. I've been in numerous games where I'm sitting with multiples as dead cards rotting in my hand. I think I may go down to 2 - or even 1! - and run more impactful cards in its place (swap out 1 for a Restoration Angel, for example).
-Maybe I've had bad variance as of late, but Oath of Nissa has actually been pretty disappointing for me. A lot of the times I just wish it was a more impactful creature. I won't give up on it yet, but yea, it's no longer the set-in-stone card it used to be, in my mind.
-I haven't figured out what other 2-cmc creature to put into the deck to reinforce the Rallier shenanigans. Wall of Omens is okay but a lot of the times it isn't in the GY (opponents attack around it), and even if it does come back it play it is just blind-drawing 1, which is okay but certainly not as degenerate as other strategies in the format. I think running a mainboard Ooze and QPM is probably a good idea. Ooze is usually public enemy #1 against fair/removal-heavy decks, and QPM has a good power curve (2/2 with exalted) for attacking, plus you can blow it up to destroy an artifact or enchantment, and then bring it back later with Rallier.
The deck's biggest weakness I've noticed is the "crutch" of having to play 4 Saheeli and 4 Felidar. Having multiples of either is bad news. I don't mind running extra Saheelis because it has synergy with Sun Titan (namely, having 2 in play or GY + Sun Titan = go infinite and win) and can be a strong stick in play as a PW (damage opponent, scry, copy creature, etc.). But Felidars... just not my thing. I think I may try a 4:1 split of Saheeli and Felidar this FNM and see what happens. And sorry I'm droning on about this, but from the last 2 FNMs I've done (10 total matches, so 20-30 actual games), I've had 0 "combo" kills with Saheeli and Felidar. I have had several kills with Saheeli + Sun Titan, and usually if you land a Sun Titan it is just GG.
Here is the list I am working on right now:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Eternal Witness
1 Felidar Guardian
1 Restoration Angel
1 Angel of Sanctions
1 Sun Titan
4 Path to Exile
3 Saheeli Rai
3 Eldritch Evolution
Note only 1 Felidar, 3 Saheeli instead of 4, no Oaths... yet. I might just put the 4 in, but I'm still missing spots. This is assuming 22 lands, of course. I like to run a 1-of the utility lands: Gavony, Canopy, Kessig, and Ghost Quarter.
I've been playing Seifer's list and have been able to 4-1 a few times on MTGO, the lack of 5-0s tend to be my fault or getting blown out by like Grishoalbrand T2. (Also I get really bad anxiety when I play for money online for some reason so my play is never crisp)
I've learned that playing this deck takes a lot of mature play, like for example I had a board stall vs knightfall, I had the combo but they were obviously holding up path, so I felidar'd E-Witt instead to get another use of path to exile that was in the yard, and just kept essentially trying to value them out, and ended up wining with sun titans on like turn 15.
Also playing 4 felidar is a big part of what makes this deck work, pretty much everything you have has an ETB trigger, and playing it for value is great, being able to blink a rallier to get a hate bear or ramp, or oath to dig more. If you include only 1 felidar then I think you would need to reconfigure the deck immensely since one Felidar dies, the combo is probably dead, also you lose a lot of value generation from flicker effects.
Personally for your list I really don't like walls, I remember trying them in May and they never felt great, just felt like I was durdling trying to find the combo. Are you playing Horizon Canopies in your manabase? They have been a great addition having two of those to recur to dig is a lot more useful than an 0/4 for 2. Also I know we are in white and its considered "Sideboard Tax" but rip does a lot more harm than good in this deck, it cuts off Rallier, Finks, and Sun Titan.
This is just my 2 cents though.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
This was tried way back when the deck was first being worked on. The issue is that the deck doesn't run a lot of blue sources to start with (I run 1). Wall of Omens is better than coiling oracle in this deck. I still personally believe that horizon canopy is the best card draw effect the deck has access to beyond Oath if Nissa.