Anyone have advice on the UW control matchup? I think I get too aggressive and just lose on card advantage, but boy does that matchup feel like an uphill battle. I think this is again due to our sorcery speed only plays, but I know I'm not playing the matchup right yet.
He puts our combo together all by himself. In fact he can put all sorts of combos together.
Thoughts?
His ultimate takes 4 turns. By 4 turns we should be running into the combo already. Too much of a Win More Card. I even think Arlinn Kord would be a better fit to just +1/+1 all guys.
So I'm looking at a lot of decklists, is the Lotus Cobra interaction unneeded now?
Hi all, was able to get a little bit of testing in this weekend and FNM. I ran a fairly stock GWx list - will post later when I can.
For FNM, I went 2-2 with wins against Goblins and RW Prison/Hatebears, and losses to Tron and the new Living End list. The GWx version proved amazing in the winning MU's as Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence can pretty much carry the day. Sitting at 2-0 headed into my 3rd match, I got obliterated 0-2 by Tron. That MU seems horrendous (I do not mainboard Ghost Quarter). G1: T3 Karn exiled my creatures, which obviously makes the Finks/VOR return effects null and void, followed by a T4 Ugin. G2 I windmill-slammed a T2 Stony Silence only to see him drop a T3 Karn into T4 Ugin anyway. Ridiculous. Then I got 0-2'ed by the new Living End which cast T3 Living End both games with a bunch of creatures in bin. I was looking to combo the following turn (I went T1 Birds of Paradise, T2 Finks, T3 Saheeli, and had Eldritch Evolution in hand) but he played Faerie Macabre in response to the persist trigger to exile my Finks. Feelsbadman. I was pretty bummed playing against Tron and Living End. Are these just tough MU's, is it me being inexperienced with the deck, or do we not have game against legit Tier 1 decks?
Also, I tried out the Jeskai version on the side against Eldrazi Tron. I did manage to go 2-0 there, but I wonder how competitive that shell is (UWR) versus the GWx version considering there are basically no postings out there (other than a Top 32 appearance months ago). Is that version just far inferior?
Hi all, was able to get a little bit of testing in this weekend and FNM. I ran a fairly stock GWx list - will post later when I can.
For FNM, I went 2-2 with wins against Goblins and RW Prison/Hatebears, and losses to Tron and the new Living End list. The GWx version proved amazing in the winning MU's as Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence can pretty much carry the day. Sitting at 2-0 headed into my 3rd match, I got obliterated 0-2 by Tron. That MU seems horrendous (I do not mainboard Ghost Quarter). G1: T3 Karn exiled my creatures, which obviously makes the Finks/VOR return effects null and void, followed by a T4 Ugin. G2 I windmill-slammed a T2 Stony Silence only to see him drop a T3 Karn into T4 Ugin anyway. Ridiculous. Then I got 0-2'ed by the new Living End which cast T3 Living End both games with a bunch of creatures in bin. I was looking to combo the following turn (I went T1 Birds of Paradise, T2 Finks, T3 Saheeli, and had Eldritch Evolution in hand) but he played Faerie Macabre in response to the persist trigger to exile my Finks. Feelsbadman. I was pretty bummed playing against Tron and Living End. Are these just tough MU's, is it me being inexperienced with the deck, or do we not have game against legit Tier 1 decks?
Also, I tried out the Jeskai version on the side against Eldrazi Tron. I did manage to go 2-0 there, but I wonder how competitive that shell is (UWR) versus the GWx version considering there are basically no postings out there (other than a Top 32 appearance months ago). Is that version just far inferior?
Jeskai list have been doing ok even with how vastly underplayed it is. As you said there was a top 32 in Brisbane mknths ago and a 25th place in one of the gps that just happened. Also smaller tournament sucess like a top 8 in an italian tournament. Those are pretty impressive showings for a deck that is played by just a handful of people. Anyway pretty much all green creature decks just lose to tron which even the vizier decks that are considered the second best decks in modern next to the shadow decks gets crushed by tron. You basically have to hope that they do not draw their best hand to give you time to beat down or just combo them out turn 3 if you are on the play.
Jeskai list have been doing ok even with how vastly underplayed it is. As you said there was a top 32 in Brisbane mknths ago and a 25th place in one of the gps that just happened. Also smaller tournament sucess like a top 8 in an italian tournament. Those are pretty impressive showings for a deck that is played by just a handful of people. Anyway pretty much all green creature decks just lose to tron which even the vizier decks that are considered the second best decks in modern next to the shadow decks gets crushed by tron. You basically have to hope that they do not draw their best hand to give you time to beat down or just combo them out turn 3 if you are on the play.
I noticed that Lejoon ran 2 Ghost Quarter main, which helped in his MU vs. Tron. That seems like a spicy idea, but how reliable is this? We don't have any way to fetch/search for these lands other than hoping it appears in the top 3 cards with an Oath of Nissa. Thoughts? Also, what else are people doing to make the Tron MU more favorable (or, stated another way, less disfavorable)?
Also, if someone could direct me to the Jeskai thread for Saheeli Copycat in these forums I would appreciate it. Want to get plenty of playtesting in on both.
@TheoryCraft: I think you're mixing up me and Lejoon I ran 2 GQ main in my 11-4 GP Copenhagen list. I think the Tron matchup is pretty okey with Gaddock Teeg after sideboard and they also have little instant interaction to mess with our combo.
@nal2: My apologies for the mis-attribution. I was looking at the primer and reading through the pages of discussion and yes, mixed the two of you up. Congrats again on your great finish.
I took a look at your SB and had some additional Q's beyond those posed above:
How do you feel about Eidolon of Rhetoric at the moment? You brought it in versus spell-based combo, it looks like, and yet you lost both of those games anyway. Do you chalk that up to bad luck or is the card just not well-positioned in that MU?
How relevant has Linvala, Keeper of Silence been for you? I know it is great against, say, Counters Company, but I'm not sure if there is enough creature-based activated abilities floating around right now to justify taking up that spot.
Are you still satisfied running Kataki, War's Wage in your SB, or do Fracturing Gust and Manglehorn do enough work? I can imagine it being good against Affinity and Lantern Control but wasn't sure it was needed with those other cards.
What other changes, SB or otherwise, if any have you made to your list since your finish? I'll post my list soon here and get some playtesting going and we can bounce ideas off of each other.
One of hate creatures are at a premium with an evolution deck.
Eidolon is most relevant against storm, but also comes in against: snapcaster decks, cascade decks (living end, restore balance), ad nauseum and elves if on the play.
Linvala is very good versus abzan company, but it also great against: eldrazi decks (displacer/ drowner in bant, walking ballista in eldratron), elves, affinity, knightfall and a bunch of other matchups.
I currently am playing manglehorn side over rec sage as it is better against ad nauseum, KCI, lantern and affinity. I am not a fan of gust, and prefer 2 slots for stony silence before I play my first kataki.
So I've been on the somewhat standard 1 negate, 2 unified will for a while now. Today someone suggested Disdainful Stroke over unified will.
Main differences I can see are DS is better vs Eldrazi Tron, UW better vs Living End. Against UWx control I'm not sure.
Any opinions?
Eidolon is most relevant against storm, but also comes in against: snapcaster decks, cascade decks (living end, restore balance), ad nauseum and elves if on the play.
Are you bringing eidolon in vs grixis (delver/shadow/control)?
I have been feeling a lot better about the deck since ditching the counter magic. This deck doesn't really play at instant speed so there is no benefit to their inclusion, and no way to leverage them past a straight up one for one trade.
I have been feeling a lot better about the deck since ditching the counter magic. This deck doesn't really play at instant speed so there is no benefit to their inclusion, and no way to leverage them past a straight up one for one trade.
Agreed, @Zamite. I feel like the deck is best suited to being proactive and addressing concerns in advance by using value beats + Eldritch Evolution. Playing Tron? T1 dork, T2 evolve into a Gaddock Teeg. Playing Storm? Evolve into an Eidolon of Rhetoric. Using the beats of Kitchen Finks or Voice of Resurgence combined with the toolbox ability to hate out certain decks allows us to attack opponents on 2 axis - pressuring their life total early with value, and also holding up the threat of combo. I think the skeleton of the deck is there to be very solid, now it's just a matter of selecting the "correct" number of mainboard Finks/VoR, tweaking land-base, whether to include strong meta cards (Reflector Mage), etc.
So I've been on the somewhat standard 1 negate, 2 unified will for a while now. Today someone suggested Disdainful Stroke over unified will.
Main differences I can see are DS is better vs Eldrazi Tron, UW better vs Living End. Against UWx control I'm not sure.
Any opinions?
Eidolon is most relevant against storm, but also comes in against: snapcaster decks, cascade decks (living end, restore balance), ad nauseum and elves if on the play.
Are you bringing eidolon in vs grixis (delver/shadow/control)?
Eidolon comes in against grixis control, where the body is a relevant, unboltable creature, and demands a terminate to unlock snapcaster. Against grixis death shadow and delver i often dont bring it in, as the four RIP are already shutting down gy against DS. I also do not like countermagic. This is a tappout creature deck that needs to develop in the first few turns, so holding up a two mana counterspell every turn can be more detrimental than helpful at times. I absolutely feel that 4 VOR is essential to this deck, but the 3 drop creature spot is the last piece the deck needs to solidify. Right now I play a singleton courser/witness/rallier, with a pair of reflector mages. Kitchen finks is a very powerful spell, but I prefer courser as a pure power card, especialy when paired with saheeli. The ewit is just a good card to have, and is needed to rebuy a path in a pinch. Renegade rallier is mostly there to rebuy GQ in big mana matchups, but the best card in my testing is the reflector mage. This is great against delve threats, and excels in every creature matchup, i wouldnt leave howme without a few in your 75.
^ This is my most recent list, been going down to only 4 mana dorks and 2 Lotus Cobra (used to play 6 mana dorks and 0 cobras before). Also tried out a single Bring to Light instead of a 4th Saheeli, but only drew it once and got to cast a Reflector Mage off it vs Death's Shadow.
The dredge matchup (and probably Living End) is pretty bad, but they are more uncommon on Magic Online then you might think.
Are the Lotus Cobras better than the Hierarchs? I've been playing your 11-4 list and it has been working really well for me, and the Hierarchs help put on a surprising amount of pressure. I was going to slot a Reflector Mage into it but it didn't seem worth messing up the consistent feeling mana. Bring to Light is probably ok, but I don't think cutting a Saheeli is worth it. Most of the time you won't draw it, and you can't get it off of Oath. When you draw it you have a great toolbox card, but you might as well have played Eldritch Evolution since you're only getting creatures.
From your 11-4 list I've been thinking about tweaking the board, and came to pretty much the same conclusion as you did.
It can grab all sorts of stuff, and we wouldn't really even need to change a whole lot to support it.
Also, Lejoon, what are your impressions on the black splash for Rhino? I'm the one that was trying out the 5c brew with Rhinos. It feels powerful, but as with all adjustments to this deck, it's hard to tell which set up is optimum. I'm juts curious to hear your thoughts after trying a list with Rhinos? Also did you get a chance to live the dream, and copy Rhinos with Saheeli? Feels so powerful when you get to do that.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Lord Hazanko: No, Oath of Nissa is the best card in the deck, the glue that keeps the deck together. Makes 1-land starthands keepable, finds combo pieces, can be flickered with Felidar Guardian, can be brought back with Renegade Rallier/Sun Titan and makes Saheeli castable with only green and white mana. Would never play less than 4 and very seldom sideboard them out.
I've played as little as 2 MD in lists and never even noticed.
You can play without them pretty easily. You usually have better things to blink with Cat, or return with Rallier. Wish finds Saheeli, so it has that angle covered. Oath can grab a land though which can be helpful.
The card is very good, I know all the things you can do with it, but i'm not so sure you actually need it.
I saw another user post about Glittering Wish, and the more I think about it, the more the idea intrigues me. It might end up being a bunk idea, but it's an interesting angle.
This sounds like a stupid problem, but I seriously feel like this shell is so good, I have success no matter how I set up my list. I've tried so many different things, and done great with all of them. I've brewed on a lot of decks over the years, but with this one, I just can't for the life of my find an optimum set up when everything I try is working.
Dont' do it. I'm using Glittering Wish and you need Oath out for Wish to be any good. Since you're putting 1 Saheeli in the sideboard, you need to be able to fetch it out ASAP. That said, with Glittering Wish, your sideboard isn't as powerful anymore. But you do get to put in cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and Gaddock Teeg in the side. Also, I'm starting to get tempted to add in black to get access to Abrupt Decay, and Terminate
Thanks for the feedback. So are you cutting Evo instead?
I actually cut out 3 2x creatures (a finks to the board, a voice(dont' know if this is the right call), a witness, and a Saheeli. and put them all in the sideboard to wish out.
"This sounds like a stupid problem, but I seriously feel like this shell is so good, I have success no matter how I set up my list. I've tried so many different things, and done great with all of them. I've brewed on a lot of decks over the years, but with this one, I just can't for the life of my find an optimum set up when everything I try is working."
This is very true Having a hard time evaluating Lotus Cobra because of this, feels like I could play 2 Grizzly Bears instead and still do great
I just came back from a Modern Monday game day and the Glittering Wish board works well, although there's some kinks to it. I like how I have access to complete hosers but I think it's vulnerable to a lot of things. And if things aren't firing, it just farts on itself and dies. I think there may be a bit too much wishing going on, but getting something in a pinch is awesome. Like one game where I picked up a Lightning Helix on turn 2 against burn, and killed his Goblin Guide on turn 3 and gained 3 life. That was very nice. Here's my list.
And Blood Baron is an automatic 1 of in every deck. It just destroys Grixis Shadow AND Burn. The protections are so relevant that it makes huge head scratchers for the opposing side.
Samut, The Tested
He puts our combo together all by himself. In fact he can put all sorts of combos together.
Thoughts?
His ultimate takes 4 turns. By 4 turns we should be running into the combo already. Too much of a Win More Card. I even think Arlinn Kord would be a better fit to just +1/+1 all guys.
So I'm looking at a lot of decklists, is the Lotus Cobra interaction unneeded now?
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For FNM, I went 2-2 with wins against Goblins and RW Prison/Hatebears, and losses to Tron and the new Living End list. The GWx version proved amazing in the winning MU's as Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence can pretty much carry the day. Sitting at 2-0 headed into my 3rd match, I got obliterated 0-2 by Tron. That MU seems horrendous (I do not mainboard Ghost Quarter). G1: T3 Karn exiled my creatures, which obviously makes the Finks/VOR return effects null and void, followed by a T4 Ugin. G2 I windmill-slammed a T2 Stony Silence only to see him drop a T3 Karn into T4 Ugin anyway. Ridiculous. Then I got 0-2'ed by the new Living End which cast T3 Living End both games with a bunch of creatures in bin. I was looking to combo the following turn (I went T1 Birds of Paradise, T2 Finks, T3 Saheeli, and had Eldritch Evolution in hand) but he played Faerie Macabre in response to the persist trigger to exile my Finks. Feelsbadman. I was pretty bummed playing against Tron and Living End. Are these just tough MU's, is it me being inexperienced with the deck, or do we not have game against legit Tier 1 decks?
Also, I tried out the Jeskai version on the side against Eldrazi Tron. I did manage to go 2-0 there, but I wonder how competitive that shell is (UWR) versus the GWx version considering there are basically no postings out there (other than a Top 32 appearance months ago). Is that version just far inferior?
Jeskai list have been doing ok even with how vastly underplayed it is. As you said there was a top 32 in Brisbane mknths ago and a 25th place in one of the gps that just happened. Also smaller tournament sucess like a top 8 in an italian tournament. Those are pretty impressive showings for a deck that is played by just a handful of people. Anyway pretty much all green creature decks just lose to tron which even the vizier decks that are considered the second best decks in modern next to the shadow decks gets crushed by tron. You basically have to hope that they do not draw their best hand to give you time to beat down or just combo them out turn 3 if you are on the play.
I noticed that Lejoon ran 2 Ghost Quarter main, which helped in his MU vs. Tron. That seems like a spicy idea, but how reliable is this? We don't have any way to fetch/search for these lands other than hoping it appears in the top 3 cards with an Oath of Nissa. Thoughts? Also, what else are people doing to make the Tron MU more favorable (or, stated another way, less disfavorable)?
Also, if someone could direct me to the Jeskai thread for Saheeli Copycat in these forums I would appreciate it. Want to get plenty of playtesting in on both.
The Jeskai Copycat deck can be found here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/769336-jeskai-copycat-saheeli-felidar
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
I took a look at your SB and had some additional Q's beyond those posed above:
How do you feel about Eidolon of Rhetoric at the moment? You brought it in versus spell-based combo, it looks like, and yet you lost both of those games anyway. Do you chalk that up to bad luck or is the card just not well-positioned in that MU?
How relevant has Linvala, Keeper of Silence been for you? I know it is great against, say, Counters Company, but I'm not sure if there is enough creature-based activated abilities floating around right now to justify taking up that spot.
Are you still satisfied running Kataki, War's Wage in your SB, or do Fracturing Gust and Manglehorn do enough work? I can imagine it being good against Affinity and Lantern Control but wasn't sure it was needed with those other cards.
What other changes, SB or otherwise, if any have you made to your list since your finish? I'll post my list soon here and get some playtesting going and we can bounce ideas off of each other.
Eidolon is most relevant against storm, but also comes in against: snapcaster decks, cascade decks (living end, restore balance), ad nauseum and elves if on the play.
Linvala is very good versus abzan company, but it also great against: eldrazi decks (displacer/ drowner in bant, walking ballista in eldratron), elves, affinity, knightfall and a bunch of other matchups.
I currently am playing manglehorn side over rec sage as it is better against ad nauseum, KCI, lantern and affinity. I am not a fan of gust, and prefer 2 slots for stony silence before I play my first kataki.
My list is here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-05-17-4c-saheeli/
Main differences I can see are DS is better vs Eldrazi Tron, UW better vs Living End. Against UWx control I'm not sure.
Any opinions?
Are you bringing eidolon in vs grixis (delver/shadow/control)?
Agreed, @Zamite. I feel like the deck is best suited to being proactive and addressing concerns in advance by using value beats + Eldritch Evolution. Playing Tron? T1 dork, T2 evolve into a Gaddock Teeg. Playing Storm? Evolve into an Eidolon of Rhetoric. Using the beats of Kitchen Finks or Voice of Resurgence combined with the toolbox ability to hate out certain decks allows us to attack opponents on 2 axis - pressuring their life total early with value, and also holding up the threat of combo. I think the skeleton of the deck is there to be very solid, now it's just a matter of selecting the "correct" number of mainboard Finks/VoR, tweaking land-base, whether to include strong meta cards (Reflector Mage), etc.
Eidolon comes in against grixis control, where the body is a relevant, unboltable creature, and demands a terminate to unlock snapcaster. Against grixis death shadow and delver i often dont bring it in, as the four RIP are already shutting down gy against DS. I also do not like countermagic. This is a tappout creature deck that needs to develop in the first few turns, so holding up a two mana counterspell every turn can be more detrimental than helpful at times. I absolutely feel that 4 VOR is essential to this deck, but the 3 drop creature spot is the last piece the deck needs to solidify. Right now I play a singleton courser/witness/rallier, with a pair of reflector mages. Kitchen finks is a very powerful spell, but I prefer courser as a pure power card, especialy when paired with saheeli. The ewit is just a good card to have, and is needed to rebuy a path in a pinch. Renegade rallier is mostly there to rebuy GQ in big mana matchups, but the best card in my testing is the reflector mage. This is great against delve threats, and excels in every creature matchup, i wouldnt leave howme without a few in your 75.
"Finished 4-1 in three consecutive Modern leagues with this list now. Feels really good versus the current meta, can def. recommend! #mtg"
---------------------------------------------------------------
^ This is my most recent list, been going down to only 4 mana dorks and 2 Lotus Cobra (used to play 6 mana dorks and 0 cobras before). Also tried out a single Bring to Light instead of a 4th Saheeli, but only drew it once and got to cast a Reflector Mage off it vs Death's Shadow.
The dredge matchup (and probably Living End) is pretty bad, but they are more uncommon on Magic Online then you might think.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
From your 11-4 list I've been thinking about tweaking the board, and came to pretty much the same conclusion as you did.
It can grab all sorts of stuff, and we wouldn't really even need to change a whole lot to support it.
Also, Lejoon, what are your impressions on the black splash for Rhino? I'm the one that was trying out the 5c brew with Rhinos. It feels powerful, but as with all adjustments to this deck, it's hard to tell which set up is optimum. I'm juts curious to hear your thoughts after trying a list with Rhinos? Also did you get a chance to live the dream, and copy Rhinos with Saheeli? Feels so powerful when you get to do that.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
You can play without them pretty easily. You usually have better things to blink with Cat, or return with Rallier. Wish finds Saheeli, so it has that angle covered. Oath can grab a land though which can be helpful.
The card is very good, I know all the things you can do with it, but i'm not so sure you actually need it.
I saw another user post about Glittering Wish, and the more I think about it, the more the idea intrigues me. It might end up being a bunk idea, but it's an interesting angle.
This sounds like a stupid problem, but I seriously feel like this shell is so good, I have success no matter how I set up my list. I've tried so many different things, and done great with all of them. I've brewed on a lot of decks over the years, but with this one, I just can't for the life of my find an optimum set up when everything I try is working.
Dont' do it. I'm using Glittering Wish and you need Oath out for Wish to be any good. Since you're putting 1 Saheeli in the sideboard, you need to be able to fetch it out ASAP. That said, with Glittering Wish, your sideboard isn't as powerful anymore. But you do get to put in cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and Gaddock Teeg in the side. Also, I'm starting to get tempted to add in black to get access to Abrupt Decay, and Terminate
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I actually cut out 3 2x creatures (a finks to the board, a voice(dont' know if this is the right call), a witness, and a Saheeli. and put them all in the sideboard to wish out.
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This is very true Having a hard time evaluating Lotus Cobra because of this, feels like I could play 2 Grizzly Bears instead and still do great
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
There's so many cool angles you could take this with this deck.
And Blood Baron is an automatic 1 of in every deck. It just destroys Grixis Shadow AND Burn. The protections are so relevant that it makes huge head scratchers for the opposing side.
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Temple Garden
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Lotus Cobra
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Felidar Guardian
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Blade Splicer
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Angel of Sanctions
1 Renegade Rallier
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Glittering Wish
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Path to Exile
1 Saheeli Rai
1 Renegade Rallier
2 Detention Sphere
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Reflector Mage
2 Lightning Helix
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Arlinn Kord
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Kitchen Finks
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