Reviving this thread cause of a 5-0 Saheeli Evolution deck that was posted.
It had 4 Knight of Autumn, 3 Milita Bugler and 0 Lotus Cobra. What do you guys think, and for the people who have played with 4 KoA what do you think about that choice? I've been playing 1 and it's been a powerhouse but putting 4 in deprives you of tech slots such as Gaddock, Ooze and whatever else.
It also plays the full 4 Felidar Guardian so maybe it's just going for a super consistent combo approach which as far as I know is the right thing to do in this meta.
Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely take that stuff into consideration.
The other super interesting thing about that list that I overlooked when I posted it was that there is no Voices. I have started to trim on those personally but it's a super bold move to go to 0.
Actually, the list has no 2-drops at all. Only 12 spells even cost less than 3 mana, and 4 cost 5 mana or more, which means it relies heavily on those 8 mana dorks. Also, in my experience Eldritch Evolution works really well with 2-drops, since those allow you to tutor for Felidar while still being cheap enough that you can cast both the 2-drop and Evolution in the same turn early on. Having lots of 3-drops instead makes Evolution a lot slower and drawing multiples seems worse.
That said, this approach obviously worked well for the pilot. Maybe it's worth giving it a try to see how it performs in non-interactive matchups (where Voice wouldn't be good anyway) vs interactive matchups (where the lack of 2-drops hurts the most, but at the same time Bugler and Knight of Autumn should be excellent). Definitely interesting.
Looks great! I will just say that I think the full playset of Oath of Nissa is almost always where you want to be -- it's one of our best cards due to its consistent smoothing of our curve, Felidar ETB blink Oath is a great way to dig for Saheeli, and its color fixing saves us life by shocking less and insulates us against mana denial plans. Oath is a big part of the games I win, sometimes in understated ways and sometimes more obvious ways. Running less than 4x can be understandable, but usually in those scenarios it takes a really good reason like dropping down in Oath's hit rate with too few creatures / too many spells/enchantments. In your build the 4th Oath is (IMO) a stronger card than your 9th 2-drop (Oracle) or your 7th 3-drop creature (Rallier #4 or Knight).
The 4th Oath also increases the chances that you draw a second copy, which thanks to the legend rule goes to the grave to be returned via Rallier. While Oath is never involved in your perfect draws that combo on turn 2-3, it just does so much work in the longer games.
Computer is definitely overheating so I'm rushing atm before it crashes; advice welcome
Fetches, Shocks, Basics, Canopies, possibly 1-2 Cavern of Souls to actually cast Viscera Seer (looking for a better Evolution-able Sac-Outlet in GW then UR tbh)
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Agreed on Viscera Seer being quite suboptimal; I may be getting too cute with that combo in addition to the powerhouse of Saheeli+Felidar.
However, I am very interested in living the attrition dream by going turn 3 Saheeli that is answered into turn 4 Felidar into turn 5 Saffi on Felidar then Evolution Felidar into Sun Titan which would allow me to threaten the combo every turn after that.
Sac outlets outside of black are rare, and often worse than the black ones. You could think about Mirror Entity (just put an arbitrary number of activations for X=0 on the stack to repeatedly kill your own board), Reaper of Flight Moonsilver, Thermopod, Greater Gargadon or Blasting Station (with Trophy Mage to find it). But none of those are particularly good cards, so probably it's better to choose a black sac outlet or give up on that second combo.
Updated my latest list (including manabase and dropping 1-of Viscera Seer for a 2nd Knight of Autumn); apologies for the double-post, but I didn't want to edit the original for the sake of historical context.
EDIT: Shalai over Sun Titan and Cobras over Voices
And bump because ... well ... the turn 3 potential of this deck is just insane:
For example:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Fetch (Land) into Rallier (Fetch (Land)) into Dork
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) or Evolution-Rallier (Felidar (Land)) into Saheeli win
Or:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Land into Dork x2
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) into Saheeli win
Or my favorite, which with some luck can provide a turn 3 win with Oath of Nissa (and a major reason why I'm cutting voices for cobras):
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Cobra into Fetch (Land) into Cobra into Oath
Turn 3 - Fetch (Land) into Oath into Felidar (Oath) into Saheeli
Notice how the combo is assembled right away on the kill turn as opposed to the more likely dork-saheeli-felidar sequence, which means that any deck that taps out on turn 2 without interaction risks losing to the combo ... the mind games associated with this threat combined with valuetown plan B ... well, let's just say I really want to build this and jam it FNM already.
You're also missing the traditional (and much divisive in that it incentivizes more Cobras in place of dork consistency):
Turn 1 Dork
Turn 2 Cobra -> Fetch -> Rallier -> Fetch -> Saheeli -> copy Rallier -> fetch -> evo for guardian.
Did you update your list to include Cobras too?
On another note for everybody: how do we fare against the Phoenix.dec? Amongst other things, I think it's the straw that makes Splicer straight up unplayable (I had already forgone it, but had some lingering regrets). I know that it forces us (at least me) to mainboard Shalai.
Ooh! That looks tasty; I kinda figured there was some kinda turn 2 potential with Lotus - Fetch - Rallier - ???, but completely forgot Saheeli can be reset with Felidar.
As far as Mardu Phoenix goes, I doubt it can be as bad as Bant Spirits from a theoretical standpoint (permission against Evolution plus Path to Exile plus an evasive clock puts us at a serious disadvantage), but Mardu Phoenix poses a significant obstacle as well due to evasive clock and burn, a ton of removal and targeted discard, and grave-hate in the main.
However, if Legacy Nic Fit has taught me anything, removal does nothing against "as an additional cost, sacrifice a creature" (retain priority between resolving the creature and casting Evolution), so that's a boon, and we can win without our graveyard with both combo and valuetown plans. Shalai in the main is a start, but we have quite a few options available for the side, including Eidolon of Rhetoric (shuts off Phoenix and slows down Pyromancer), Scavenging Ooze (timely activation counters the Phoenix trigger), Rest in Peace (shuts off Phoenix, makes Reveler more expensive, and doesn't hurt as much as them), etc.
In fact, the most threatening aspect of their 75 (based on the Las Vegas list) is probably Blood Moon; without Dorks (which might be removed) and Oath (which might be discarded), we will have a tough time comboing out with a Blood Moon on the field. To this effect, I would make the following changes to my list (Cobras in place of Voices in the main and Shalai, Voice of Plenty in place of Sun Titan):
- 1 Rallier
- 3 Saffi
+ 1 Eidolon of the Rhetoric
+ 2 Rest in Peace
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
On Pridemage, I am considering Pridemage over a third Knight of Autumn simply for interactions with Renegade Rallier.
As an aside, for Saffi+Rallier without a sac-outlet, it is almost like a better Finks+Vizier as you can chump block two attackers each turn and protect the Rallier against destroy removal. However if Rest of Peace is boarded in, that synergy loses a lot of value, and Phoenix can't be blocked without evasion (which only Shalai has). Rallier is still decent in any matchup as at the very least it can ramp us before Rest in Peace hits the field; just not good enough to justify 4 of them at all times.
Yeah, I think it's going to be very popular as an EDH comannder, but I don't believe that card will be playable in modern. Though it does have its ability, this is not Birthing Pod.
Adding Scryb Ranger, Bounding Krasis, and Kiki-Jiki to the mix allows for a clean kill from any one drop in play.
Pod Dork -> Scryb Ranger. Return Forest untap Vannifar, Pod Scryb Ranger -> Rallier. Return Ranger, return Forest untap Vannifar, Pod Ranger-> Bounding Krasis untap Vannifar. Pod Rallier -> Felidar flicker Krasis untap Vannifar. Pod Feldiar -> Kiki and combo with Krasis
It looks like Vannifar fits the best in this preexisting shell for sure. The big problems that she faces is you'd really like to either be able to cast her early or with haste. It's really easy to make a Vannifar deck that's just worse than the Druid combo decks given you're relying on untapping with a four drop compared to a two.
The benefit from being in the Saheeli shell is that have a turn two Vannifar line in T1 BoP T2 Cobra fetch Evo Cobra to Vannifar. On top of that, T2 Saheeli into T3 Vannifar Saheeli minus grants her haste to T3.
Damn, if it wasn't legendary it could at least combo by itself with saheeli...
It kills with a mana dork, and Saheeli. That's a large part of why I believe it's going to see play. As AcademyRuins noted above, Saheeli effectively gives her haste, which covers for the weakness of normally needing to untap with it.
Damn, if it wasn't legendary it could at least combo by itself with saheeli...
It kills with a mana dork, and Saheeli. That's a large part of why I believe it's going to see play. As AcademyRuins noted above, Saheeli effectively gives her haste, which covers for the weakness of normally needing to untap with it.
So what cards will you cut for scryb and the new pod on a stick?
Thinking of decklists today and I'm not sure what the weakest links are. I have light experience with the deck's earlier incarnations.
The thing is Felidar already comboes with Saheeli, so why would we add another 4-drop that does the same thing ? It's not a rethorical question, it's just one that jumps into my mind right away.
On one hand, we can build a toolbox or some nice chains, but on the other, it feels bad to play Scryb Ranger, Deceiver Exarch and Kiki in the deck, and probably force more Voices and Finks.
I suppose it's good to play around Meddling Mage and possibly cut white entirely and go Temur.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Van lets us replace some number of Guardians with a card that gives us more flexibility while retaining similar Saheeli potential. I could see something like a 4/2 Vannifar/Guardian split, giving us more combo redundancy, while expanding out ability to grind or hunt for bullets when necessary.
Something that we may not have considered up to this point though, is that we'd need one more mana to combo off, since Van can't blink a land and Saheeli can't copy a dork if we try to go off in one go.
I'm not sure I know what you mean. Saheeli copies Van, sac original, and then sac an existing mana dork to begin the chain.
Vannifar seems promising. It might be a turn too slow, especially on the draw, but if you get to activate it, you'll usually win on the spot. We don't even need to change too many cards to enable it, it actually fits into the existing Saheeli+Kiki shell quite well. Scryb Ranger seems like a must, and a pro blue flyer could actually be useful as a blocker vs Spirits, Humans, Dredge and Inkmoth Nexus.
Cards like Fatal Push, Terminus and Spell Queller can easily disrupt Vannifar, but those cards were good against us already, so the bigger obstacle might be the fast decks. Is a 4cmc card that usually does nothing the turn it comes into play viable in the current meta? I have my doubts, but I'm willing to give it a real chance.
Btw, despite the similarities at first glance, I expect Vannifar to play very differently from Birthing Pod. It can't be cast on turn 2 off a dork, it can't activate right away without help, it's vulnerable to a much wider range of disruption, but it's also a lot more unfair once it starts doing things.
Just going to through my 5 cents into this and say: Vannifar is probable a trap (at least the whole Scryb Ranger plan). It's possibly fine to run as a 1-of, but not before the 4th Felidar Guardian and 4th Eldritch Evolution.
Just going to through my 5 cents into this and say: Vannifar is probable a trap (at least the whole Scryb Ranger plan). It's possibly fine to run as a 1-of, but not before the 4th Felidar Guardian and 4th Eldritch Evolution.
Agreed; I actually believe that Vannifar will be best as a value town enabler with the potential to tutor various five-drops by itself, including Kikki-Jikki as a back-up win.
Actually, now that I think of it ... there is a combo Vannifar is perfect for, but it is mana/color intensive and would most likely require its own deck:
Turn N: Play Vannifar
Turn N+1: Play Kikki Jikki/Zealous Conscripts, activate Vannifar on self for other, combo out.
Just going to through my 5 cents into this and say: Vannifar is probable a trap (at least the whole Scryb Ranger plan). It's possibly fine to run as a 1-of, but not before the 4th Felidar Guardian and 4th Eldritch Evolution.
Agreed; I actually believe that Vannifar will be best as a value town enabler with the potential to tutor various five-drops by itself, including Kikki-Jikki as a back-up win.
Actually, now that I think of it ... there is a combo Vannifar is perfect for, but it is mana/color intensive and would most likely require its own deck:
Turn N: Play Vannifar
Turn N+1: Play Kikki Jikki/Zealous Conscripts, activate Vannifar on self for other, combo out.
I don't know about whether Vannifar is good enough to force out slots in Copycat, but I believe she will generate her own deck. The bad news is that the deck basically cannot win on Turn 3 (unlike Devoted Druid Evolution and, heck, this deck), but the good news is that Vannifar (given enough maindeck slots, and it'll be those maindeck slots that will make Vannifar generate her own deck) can turn darn near any board state into the combo in one turn. So, she's fairly close to being a one-card combo. And when you have the win in the palm of your hand, value plans seem slow, lame, and a last resort.
Luckily, my Vannifar build has a good enough value plan that I have won against Jund while having both Kiki-Jikis stranded in hand and never being able to cast them.
Be optimistic about Vannifar everyone Remember that testing out new cards or variants always leaves you at worst with confirmation of a hipfired assessment. At best, you're the one piloting a busted deck weeks before it tops a GP. Here's a few funny quotes to encourage testing before dismissing.
I've been playing [Abzan Company] since before twin got banned, and I'm of the opinion that this [Druid Vizier] combo is garbo. We don't really have the tools to take advantage of infinite green mana, and putting in duskwatch requires yet another slot. With renegade rallier, tireless tracker, Saffi, fiend hunter/pontiff, and the Angel Combo already vying for spots, I don't see this as where the deck wants to be right now. Probably you want some new deck with Genesis Wave and Craterhoof.
[Siege Rhino] is worse than Obstinate Baloth [in Melira Pod]. You don't necessarily care about the extra damage to your opponent, rather you care about the life gained by the ETB. It is also much harder to cast, pods mana base is already under serious strain and replacing a card that's double green (which is relatively easy for pod) to then 3 different colours is not what you want to be doing, you could take a lot of damage off your mana base just to even attempt casting it.
I don't think the trample or the extra point of toughness is worthwhile. I'm struggling to articulate exactly why, so it's really just my opinion at this point.
The biggest point against rhino, what four drop do you remove? Common four drops in pod are Redcap, Resto, Metamorph in the mainboard. Redcap is integral to pods gameplan and is a solid 2-4-1 anyway, it breaks stalled board states and kills random utility creatures.
Resto and Metamorph fall under a similar guise. They both 'reset' kitchen finks, and each can provide a meaningful threat. The most important thing is the amount of synergy the have in the deck, which Rhino doesn't have.
If rhino was in the sideboard, what would it replace there? And what matchup is good in? Melira pod generally runs Entomber Exarch and Thrun as additional four drops in the board. I don't think Rhino can replace either of those, Exarch comes in for matchups like control or Scapeshift where spell quality and quantity will win the match rather than life total. Thrun is just a beating for BGx and Control, he is utterly unique.
[Traverse Shadow] looks spicy, but in all honesty not that potable. The main advantage deaths shadow zoo had against other aggro decks, was being able to just go off and go crazy and beat them even faster than they could. This list kind of dilutes that, leaving it in a weird place where you kind of to kill yourself, but even if you do get low enough to cast a big shadow you're still kind of dead cause you don't have as much otk potential. And yeah, this deck would just get smoked by regular control. Interesting idea, but I don't think it's there yet
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It had 4 Knight of Autumn, 3 Milita Bugler and 0 Lotus Cobra. What do you guys think, and for the people who have played with 4 KoA what do you think about that choice? I've been playing 1 and it's been a powerhouse but putting 4 in deprives you of tech slots such as Gaddock, Ooze and whatever else.
It also plays the full 4 Felidar Guardian so maybe it's just going for a super consistent combo approach which as far as I know is the right thing to do in this meta.
The other super interesting thing about that list that I overlooked when I posted it was that there is no Voices. I have started to trim on those personally but it's a super bold move to go to 0.
That said, this approach obviously worked well for the pilot. Maybe it's worth giving it a try to see how it performs in non-interactive matchups (where Voice wouldn't be good anyway) vs interactive matchups (where the lack of 2-drops hurts the most, but at the same time Bugler and Knight of Autumn should be excellent). Definitely interesting.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Renegade Rallier
1 Knight of Autumn
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Sun Titan
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Saheeli Rai
1 Kikki-Jikki Mirror Breaker
1 Magus of the Moon
Computer is definitely overheating so I'm rushing atm before it crashes; advice welcome
Fetches, Shocks, Basics, Canopies, possibly 1-2 Cavern of Souls to actually cast Viscera Seer (looking for a better Evolution-able Sac-Outlet in GW then UR tbh)
[/deck]
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However, I am very interested in living the attrition dream by going turn 3 Saheeli that is answered into turn 4 Felidar into turn 5 Saffi on Felidar then Evolution Felidar into Sun Titan which would allow me to threaten the combo every turn after that.
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4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Renegade Rallier
2 Knight of Autumn
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Spells (12)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Steam Vents
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Forest
15 Meta-Dependent Choices
Updated my latest list (including manabase and dropping 1-of Viscera Seer for a 2nd Knight of Autumn); apologies for the double-post, but I didn't want to edit the original for the sake of historical context.
EDIT: Shalai over Sun Titan and Cobras over Voices
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For example:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Fetch (Land) into Rallier (Fetch (Land)) into Dork
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) or Evolution-Rallier (Felidar (Land)) into Saheeli win
Or:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Land into Dork x2
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) into Saheeli win
Or my favorite, which with some luck can provide a turn 3 win with Oath of Nissa (and a major reason why I'm cutting voices for cobras):
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Cobra into Fetch (Land) into Cobra into Oath
Turn 3 - Fetch (Land) into Oath into Felidar (Oath) into Saheeli
Notice how the combo is assembled right away on the kill turn as opposed to the more likely dork-saheeli-felidar sequence, which means that any deck that taps out on turn 2 without interaction risks losing to the combo ... the mind games associated with this threat combined with valuetown plan B ... well, let's just say I really want to build this and jam it FNM already.
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Ooh! That looks tasty; I kinda figured there was some kinda turn 2 potential with Lotus - Fetch - Rallier - ???, but completely forgot Saheeli can be reset with Felidar.
As far as Mardu Phoenix goes, I doubt it can be as bad as Bant Spirits from a theoretical standpoint (permission against Evolution plus Path to Exile plus an evasive clock puts us at a serious disadvantage), but Mardu Phoenix poses a significant obstacle as well due to evasive clock and burn, a ton of removal and targeted discard, and grave-hate in the main.
However, if Legacy Nic Fit has taught me anything, removal does nothing against "as an additional cost, sacrifice a creature" (retain priority between resolving the creature and casting Evolution), so that's a boon, and we can win without our graveyard with both combo and valuetown plans. Shalai in the main is a start, but we have quite a few options available for the side, including Eidolon of Rhetoric (shuts off Phoenix and slows down Pyromancer), Scavenging Ooze (timely activation counters the Phoenix trigger), Rest in Peace (shuts off Phoenix, makes Reveler more expensive, and doesn't hurt as much as them), etc.
In fact, the most threatening aspect of their 75 (based on the Las Vegas list) is probably Blood Moon; without Dorks (which might be removed) and Oath (which might be discarded), we will have a tough time comboing out with a Blood Moon on the field. To this effect, I would make the following changes to my list (Cobras in place of Voices in the main and Shalai, Voice of Plenty in place of Sun Titan):
- 1 Rallier
- 3 Saffi
+ 1 Eidolon of the Rhetoric
+ 2 Rest in Peace
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
On Pridemage, I am considering Pridemage over a third Knight of Autumn simply for interactions with Renegade Rallier.
As an aside, for Saffi+Rallier without a sac-outlet, it is almost like a better Finks+Vizier as you can chump block two attackers each turn and protect the Rallier against destroy removal. However if Rest of Peace is boarded in, that synergy loses a lot of value, and Phoenix can't be blocked without evasion (which only Shalai has). Rallier is still decent in any matchup as at the very least it can ramp us before Rest in Peace hits the field; just not good enough to justify 4 of them at all times.
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WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Pod Dork -> Scryb Ranger. Return Forest untap Vannifar, Pod Scryb Ranger -> Rallier. Return Ranger, return Forest untap Vannifar, Pod Ranger-> Bounding Krasis untap Vannifar. Pod Rallier -> Felidar flicker Krasis untap Vannifar. Pod Feldiar -> Kiki and combo with Krasis
It looks like Vannifar fits the best in this preexisting shell for sure. The big problems that she faces is you'd really like to either be able to cast her early or with haste. It's really easy to make a Vannifar deck that's just worse than the Druid combo decks given you're relying on untapping with a four drop compared to a two.
The benefit from being in the Saheeli shell is that have a turn two Vannifar line in T1 BoP T2 Cobra fetch Evo Cobra to Vannifar. On top of that, T2 Saheeli into T3 Vannifar Saheeli minus grants her haste to T3.
It kills with a mana dork, and Saheeli. That's a large part of why I believe it's going to see play. As AcademyRuins noted above, Saheeli effectively gives her haste, which covers for the weakness of normally needing to untap with it.
So what cards will you cut for scryb and the new pod on a stick?
Thinking of decklists today and I'm not sure what the weakest links are. I have light experience with the deck's earlier incarnations.
On one hand, we can build a toolbox or some nice chains, but on the other, it feels bad to play Scryb Ranger, Deceiver Exarch and Kiki in the deck, and probably force more Voices and Finks.
I suppose it's good to play around Meddling Mage and possibly cut white entirely and go Temur.
I'm not sure I know what you mean. Saheeli copies Van, sac original, and then sac an existing mana dork to begin the chain.
Cards like Fatal Push, Terminus and Spell Queller can easily disrupt Vannifar, but those cards were good against us already, so the bigger obstacle might be the fast decks. Is a 4cmc card that usually does nothing the turn it comes into play viable in the current meta? I have my doubts, but I'm willing to give it a real chance.
Btw, despite the similarities at first glance, I expect Vannifar to play very differently from Birthing Pod. It can't be cast on turn 2 off a dork, it can't activate right away without help, it's vulnerable to a much wider range of disruption, but it's also a lot more unfair once it starts doing things.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
Agreed; I actually believe that Vannifar will be best as a value town enabler with the potential to tutor various five-drops by itself, including Kikki-Jikki as a back-up win.
Actually, now that I think of it ... there is a combo Vannifar is perfect for, but it is mana/color intensive and would most likely require its own deck:
Turn N: Play Vannifar
Turn N+1: Play Kikki Jikki/Zealous Conscripts, activate Vannifar on self for other, combo out.
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Your combo cannot work because Prime Speaker Vannifar cannot sacrifice herself.
I don't know about whether Vannifar is good enough to force out slots in Copycat, but I believe she will generate her own deck. The bad news is that the deck basically cannot win on Turn 3 (unlike Devoted Druid Evolution and, heck, this deck), but the good news is that Vannifar (given enough maindeck slots, and it'll be those maindeck slots that will make Vannifar generate her own deck) can turn darn near any board state into the combo in one turn. So, she's fairly close to being a one-card combo. And when you have the win in the palm of your hand, value plans seem slow, lame, and a last resort.
Luckily, my Vannifar build has a good enough value plan that I have won against Jund while having both Kiki-Jikis stranded in hand and never being able to cast them.